Hey guys I am very new to the user's metagame but I want to ask a few questions about the viability list firstly why is reshiram so low it's Blue Flare is disgustingly powerful in sun and it does have a great offensive typing that basically hits everything bar lol azumarill and carbink. Why is it in C+? Secondly, how viable is lugias other ability pressure? I mean it's speed is pretty high so it can take advantage of that to pp stall powerful attacks like Specs water spouts and Banded Bolt strikes etc? Also, why is Rayquaza in B? it has high mixed offenses, crazy powerful coverage options, two great boosting moves in the swords and dragon dance, and powerful priority. While I agree it's speed and bulk are lack luster I feel that it should be at least A- rite?
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Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]
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Reshiram suffers from an SR weakness, base 90 speed, and the fact that sun has to be up for BFlare to hurt. It still has trouble destroying pink blobs, and the weather nerf kinda hits it, making it more difficult to defeat supportceus, so if you're using it to sweep, you need a lot of foes out of the way, like pink blobs, kyogre, ho-oh, supportceuses. Also Reshiram has competition in the form of Kyu-W
Lugia and pressure is sacrificing tanking ability for PP stalling. However, don't expect Lugia to be tanking Water Spouts and Bolt Strikes, especially if you invest in speed, which makes those attacks do more. multiscale is usually preferred for the added defensive power.
Rayquaza also has to deal with SR weakness, and a vulnerability to Xerneas. Unless you V-create Xerneas on the switch, it wins. Also, support Arceus formed are becoming more and more popular, and those can usually sponge Ray's attacks quite well, burning it in the process. Also, Physically Defensive Yveltal will destroy Ray with a Foul Play. Most pokes also run something to hit fliers, thanks to the power and popularity of Ho-oh, like stone edge.
Thanks a lot!!
Reshiram: Yeah I guess I see why now although I still think it should be at least a B.
Lugia: Erm with pressure, the idea I had was that a faster Lugia can simply sub-protect to stall these attacks and not actually tank them.
Rayquaza: Hmm understand for this one. Even a +1 Outrage or V-Create won't OHKO a neutral support Arceus or Yveltal?
Lugia: well, most ppl's ways to handle lugia is to toxic it, or outspeed. If you do run speed, you may be able to tank out bandkrom and specs ogre, but all it takes is one status effect, or a steel type *cough*aegislash*cough*
Ray: +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 347-409 (76.2 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There's your answer. Also, do you really want to be locked into outrage if your opp has a fairy-type.
Physically Defensive Ygod loses if an SD is set up prior
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 463-545 (101.5 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, it can be OHKOd after SR with Draco on the switch
252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 312-368 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Don't forget that any of the Pokemon that Rayquaza can't OHKO are finished off by Espeed, and DD Ray isn't the only set out there -_-
Leave it to canman98 to defend ray. I think it's fine where it is since it perfectly fits the whole "large offensive capability" thing. It's a great mon for sure, but the large amount of priority use combined with its LO damage and rocks weakness prevents it from doing too much damage, also Ditto counters the set up sweeper sets well as opposed to something like a bulky EKiller which can beat a weakened Ditto.
Ahh I see thanks a lot to you, Aquasition and canman98. I am planning to try out a swords dance set with Dragon claw, V-create and E-speed with lum Berry and a jolly nature. Do your know any good partners for this set or sweepers that benefit from the wallbreaking ray does?
When in doubt, Xerneas. He actually does appreciate removal of steels and/or Lugia which is pretty much what Rayquaza brings to the table these days.
I see... Thanks! What are some good defoggers in the tier? I was thinking of using either Latias or an Arceus form which one should I choose?
An Arceus form works best. Latias has no soul dew yet, so it's not too strong in ubers. Alternate defoggers include the Giratina forms and Scizor
I would say Rockceus is probably one of the best defoggers in the metagame as of now. It's ability to put pressure on Lugia and check Ho-oh (two ridiculously common Pokemon) is really nice. It's STAB also has decent coverage, and wrecks Yveltal. It's also somewhat of a check to Ekiller (with access to Will-o-Wisp).
Waterceus is probably a better defogger though as it doesn't have issues with lum groudon setting up rocks and then attacking, as well as soft checking palker/ogre alongside ho-oh
Klefki for A+
It can get a T-Wave on anything that is not immune and 25% of the time for free. It can also serve as the fairy type for any build meaning that there is little reason not to use it, and it's one of the few mons that can actually make good use of Spikes. It can also anti-lead many threats and has no trouble against Deo thanks to Foul Play. As if this wasn't good enough it can check any set up sweeper with T-Wave + Toxic and circumvents foe Substitute use thanks to Prankster.
Thunder Wave + Swagger + Substitute
It can get a T-Wave on anything that is not immune and 25% of the time for free. It can also serve as the fairy type for any build meaning that there is little reason not to use it, and it's one of the few mons that can actually make good use of Spikes. It can also anti-lead many threats and has no trouble against Deo thanks to Foul Play. As if this wasn't good enough it can check any set up sweeper with T-Wave + Toxic and circumvents foe Substitute use thanks to Prankster.
Well, I think the main thing that holds Keys from being A+ is that 4th move slot. The problem is you want Toxic for Defoggers coming in on Spikes stacking, TWave for well everything, Spikes because Keys is best Spiker, but then there's that divide. You want Play Rough because you kinda get annoyed by Sub GeoXern when trying to break its Sub, but Foul Play is more useful in general, but you can't pressure Sub GeoXern, which is starting to become a thing. Also, no offense, but Klefki can't really stop opponents from getting up hazards, it only deters them, so I wouldn't truly classify it as an "antilead" unlike stuff like Thundurus, Sableye and Deoxys formes with Magic Coat. However, this thing is super useful and checks a crapton of things, and my only real gripe with it is it doesn't hit too hard considering I use mine all throughout the match, and I think it should still remain A.
Moving to a different topic, Shuckle hasn't been ranked at all, and even though I've only seen Fireburn use it, I've grown fond of it as a Sticky Web setter. I'm going to set a broad preliminary ranking for C+/B- because I have no idea wtf I'm talking about. First of all, unlike Smeargle
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My thoughts regarding Klefki from a post earlier on in this thread. Tl;dr its weaknesses are too exploitable for it to be A+. Also in that quote are my views on Tyranitar, if anyone would like to discuss. I'm *fine* with it being B actually, but at any rate, it's a Pokemon that deserves to be brought to more people's attention.
Seconding C+ for Shuckle.
Agreeing with C+ for shuckle, and proposing to bump down Smeargle to C+ for the exact same reason. They both only have 1 realistic niche, and that's setting webs. Smeargle requires less support, but is inferior at re-setting webs and loses to kanga badly. While, shuckle is excellent at setting webs repeatedly with support, and laughs at any leads except darkrai.
I kept telling myself to mention that Shuckle does not lose to Kanga leads and i didn't flippin mention it. I might want Ray to move up a sub-rank though, but I have to prepare a legit argument. Seconding Smeargle's drop to C+
Fair enough, however you can go ahead and run Foul Play even against Sub Geo Xern so long as you have priority + Ditto, in fact that can potentially create your victory, you just have to sack something. I'm not saying run Ditto with Klefki because for most teams Ditto is a waste of a spot, but with the right support it works and leaves you free to run Foul Play so you aren't torn. Obviously it can't lead well against Thundurus and Sableye since those are anti-leads but if you're against a Deo why would you not use Foul Play (ya know, to punish Taunt / Magic Coat). I think malefic gives some better arguments as to why it should stay A rank, but I disagree with the statement that Ekiller keeps it from being up there as becoming paralyzed limits it to Extremespeed to sweep which has limited PP and coverage, not to mention that it will frequently fail all together. Ho-Oh doesn't like paralysis either although a majority of the time keys falls as a result.
Well, the problem is with running Foul Play is that you can't truly check Sub GeoXern if you can't break the Sub in the first place:
4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 108 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 39-46 (9.2 - 10.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
So what if you get the TWave off if your opponent has a damage shield and can still pose a threat to your team? Klefki has to take 3 TURNS out of its time in which Xern could actually be a reckless prick and set up another Geo in that time span. idk about Ditto, can someone show me a calc vs. Ditto and Xerneas, cuz all Ditto can do is break the sub and I'm interested to see if it can take the hit or not.
Edit: Ya I guess Foul Play is pretty cool (it would actually be a nice EKiller check if Xern wasn't a dick), but running 2 Xern checks isn't going to do your team synergy any favors, so unfortunately Play Rough is the best choice atm from where I see it.
I like when I'm using Geo Xern and the opponent is using Klefki to check it and I use sub and they are like oh shit.
True viability list:
True viability list:
S
~Arceus-Normal
~Gengar
~Kyogre
~Xerneas
A+
Blaziken
Mewtwo
Palkia
Yveltal
A
~Darkrai
~Dialga
~Groudon
~Ho-oh
~Zekrom
A-
~Arceus-Electric
~Arceus-Ghost
~Arceus-Ground
~Arceus-Water
~Landorus-T
~Scizor
B+
~Arceus-Fairy
~Arceus-Grass
~Arceus-Rock
~Ferrothorn
~Giratina-O
~Gliscor
~Heatran
~Kangaskhan
~Rayquaza
B
~Cloyster
~Deoxy-A
~Klefki
~Sableye
~Scolipede
~Smeargle
~Thundurus
~Whimsicott
B-
~Deoxy-S
~Lugia
~Arceus-Normal
~Gengar
~Kyogre
~Xerneas
A+
Blaziken
Mewtwo
Palkia
Yveltal
A
~Darkrai
~Dialga
~Groudon
~Ho-oh
~Zekrom
A-
~Arceus-Electric
~Arceus-Ghost
~Arceus-Ground
~Arceus-Water
~Landorus-T
~Scizor
B+
~Arceus-Fairy
~Arceus-Grass
~Arceus-Rock
~Ferrothorn
~Giratina-O
~Gliscor
~Heatran
~Kangaskhan
~Rayquaza
B
~Cloyster
~Deoxy-A
~Klefki
~Sableye
~Scolipede
~Smeargle
~Thundurus
~Whimsicott
B-
~Deoxy-S
~Lugia
I think we should consider moving Ho-oh up to High A. It's gotten to the point where (at least for me, and please speak up if you don't share this sentiment) that even on offensive teams a hard Ho-oh check is absolutely necessary. It's got the defensive bulk and typing to switch in on a plethora of common threats, including but not limited to Xerneas, Blaze, Darkrai, Dialga, Scizor, and Genesect, and once it does so it consistently wreaks havoc unless you're carrying a healthy counter. Obviously SR holds it back, but with Defog Arceus everywhere hazards have begun to take a back seat in Ubers. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I'm saying that it's on the level of the other high A members.
Read page 17,18,19
Play Rough over Foul Play loses the ability to break Ho-oh's sub but w/e. Klefki is a poor check to geo xern unless you pair it with strong physical attacker as +2 Sp Def can be hard to break when paralysis especially for a team chock of specially based attackers.
lol, cos u just gotta love keeping the keys in on ho-oh.
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