Tagging Melee Mewtwo since ur quoting him essentially.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]
- Thread starter MMII
- Start date
- Status
phys def clefable is the only cleric that checks ekiller properly.
Then use a spread of 252 HP / 104 Def / 156 SpD with a Calm Nature if you need to check both, as 252+ Silk Scarf can 17.6% chance to 2HKO while Jolly is a guaranteed 3HKO. Then, you avoid the 2HKO from Xerneas and ensure it's a 3HKO from Timid, while Modest has a 64.5% chance to 2HKO, even with 252 / 252+ it's still a .2% chance to 2HKO, so you can't avoid it. But yeah, it performs the role of both if need be I guess.
No one runs Timid GeoXern except for the average ladder peasant. Though I see what you mean with the spread.
Every geoxern is modest. Bliss/Slash/smth else is much better as a xern check.
Last edited:
Nononononono
Blissey is so utter shit lol. If you're running flamethrower then it's the ultimate set up bait (see zorodarks upl game for example) if you're running seismic then you have no lefties which is incredibly detrimental since blissey is far less effective as a wall without passive healing.
Aegis is destroyed by subgeoxern and aegis itself is kinda shit at everything else.
Overall both aren't really viable due to SUBGEOXERN being one of its most popular sets because of its excellent utility.
That being said carrying a bliss about in tandem with another couple of strong checks [ho-oh, exca, keys, etc.] that aren't weak to the variants bliss is weak to is pretty solid cos bliss is still an alright mon. Aegi.. I'll believe it when I see it (ie a good team w/ aegi + not weak to subgeo - gl with that one)
Well like piex said, its the only cleric that basicly counters ekiller. It has hella niche. It does wall w/ toxic, but loses to mono-attacking versions and it gets 2hko'd by timid lustrous hpump, thunder+pump in rain does 97-114%.
Xern has a 0.4% chance to 2hko, after rocks its 90%. I defs get that it can outstall it and such, HOWEVER you have to start moonblasting it or else you lose to subxern. So with this in mind, you have to recover after you have attacked once (clefable does 34-40%, it cant 2hko) or else you die. So, if you are running wish protect, and the opp has SUBGEOXERN ( Haruno ) it comes down to mindgames with sub or attack. You avoid alla dis if you toxic it in the beginning as you can just continuously recover and attack on a second geo that wont come. BUT what if it subs that first turn? Yeh :] Dont get me wrong tho, spdef clefable is gud, it can lose although it isn't very likely to, but if you look at it its basicly a 50/50 if both players are aware of the scenario.
tl;dr sub xern is gud, clefable for B- imo
PS (Haruno) subxern just wins vs stuff, that what it does. It can even win vs clef, but tbh if bliss is at full health you can make sure it doesnt have a full hp sub up, so if it mancies you can break the sub and then status, but this is only when it is at full health. Slash can always win if you get 4 mindgames right, but if xern has >75 (not an unlikely scenario) it can only sub twice and then you just need to win 1 mindgame. I get your point, but js. Slash traps gar (you were right about shadow ball gar in my rmt, but then spdef zor wouldnt trap it either bc hp fire), but everything is less than perfect bc xern is just way to stronk. BANBANBAN!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well I can p much summarise what clefable does. It has 2 main sets.
1 Physically Defensive
2 Specially Defensive
The 1st is by far and away the better. It allows it to act as a cleric, utilising heal bell effectively [iirc can it even have wish + unaware plz halp I think there might be issues, but it defo can't use softboiled]. It has to use shitty moonlight, but hey. The 1st one can basically wall everything quagsire walls apart from mega blaziken. It beats ekiller pretty convincingly too. That is its main niche over other clerics. The specially defensive one basically is outclassed by sylveon/blissey really. Palkia has more issues with either of those, and clefable is just terrible versus geoxern; the weakness to mega gengar outright doesn't help with clefable, so certain variants of mega gengar can destroy teams carrying it. I think that the special defensive set is just bad, but the physically defensive one is viable, as it actually does what it's supposed to do. I suggest B Rank as it possesses a legitimate niche, but has notable opportunity cost, as well as a weakness to mega gengar which can be a hindrance. Iirc the physically defensive set can probably get away with shed shell though, since ekiller really does pittance to it.
1 Physically Defensive
2 Specially Defensive
The 1st is by far and away the better. It allows it to act as a cleric, utilising heal bell effectively [iirc can it even have wish + unaware plz halp I think there might be issues, but it defo can't use softboiled]. It has to use shitty moonlight, but hey. The 1st one can basically wall everything quagsire walls apart from mega blaziken. It beats ekiller pretty convincingly too. That is its main niche over other clerics. The specially defensive one basically is outclassed by sylveon/blissey really. Palkia has more issues with either of those, and clefable is just terrible versus geoxern; the weakness to mega gengar outright doesn't help with clefable, so certain variants of mega gengar can destroy teams carrying it. I think that the special defensive set is just bad, but the physically defensive one is viable, as it actually does what it's supposed to do. I suggest B Rank as it possesses a legitimate niche, but has notable opportunity cost, as well as a weakness to mega gengar which can be a hindrance. Iirc the physically defensive set can probably get away with shed shell though, since ekiller really does pittance to it.
clefable can wall ekiller and be cleric and does nothing else yay somewhat good role compression. b-
fairyceus takes up arceus slot and become gengar weak which requires pursuit support (what a deal!) I mean yeah, it can slaughter yveltal, palkia, and absorb dragon moves, which every single other fairies are capable of doing (sylveon/xern)... STAG weak defogger is a terrible idea anyways. It can go w/ cm route, but why use this when eleceus/poisonceus/darkceus/ghostceus/waterceus are arguably more potent and useful. B to B+ material.
Also, grassceus is far more useful than fairyceus, since specsogre is actually hard to check and pursuit support can be justified for a such rare check. bump it up to B+. It's very rare to see a successful stall team without grassceus honestly. :o
fairyceus takes up arceus slot and become gengar weak which requires pursuit support (what a deal!) I mean yeah, it can slaughter yveltal, palkia, and absorb dragon moves, which every single other fairies are capable of doing (sylveon/xern)... STAG weak defogger is a terrible idea anyways. It can go w/ cm route, but why use this when eleceus/poisonceus/darkceus/ghostceus/waterceus are arguably more potent and useful. B to B+ material.
Also, grassceus is far more useful than fairyceus, since specsogre is actually hard to check and pursuit support can be justified for a such rare check. bump it up to B+. It's very rare to see a successful stall team without grassceus honestly. :o
Arceus-Grass/Rock need to go up to at least B+, Steel down to B-. Steel is really only borderline viable. Darkceus is a great CM mon but has competition with darkrai, doesn't offer huge synergy, but is a pretty solid mon. Grass is a great mon should probably even go to A-, it's as good as poison/waterceus imo. Watterceus is an allrounder, jack of all trades. POisonceus is specialist but really still very good, its weird typing is not a bad thing. Rockceus is p specialist too, but being the best option versus ho-oh in the whole meta is not a bad call. I don't really gte what's so amazing about SD groundceus but it's probably as good as rockceus p much. Not totally comparable really.
I'm going to nominate Arceus-Ground for A- / A. It may seem like a large bump but i never understood why it is sitting at B+ to begin with.
Looking at the critera...
Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.
Groundceus has very impressive offensive capability, having extremely strong Earthquakes at +2 and Stone Edge typically taking out most of it's checks providing it hits. Defensively it can run investment in its physical bulk and become one of the best counters to Zekrom, a large threat in the meta. Most of Groundceus's checks can be taken care of with that last moveslot it has on the SD set, using Ice Beam to smack Gliscor and Landorus-T, or Shadow Force to hit Giratina-O, Lugia and Bronzong. It could even use ExtremeSpeed to hit weakened Scarfers like Kyogre that may try to revenge kill it. It's probably one of the best cleaners out there. Not being able to smack around Supportceus so easily makes it difficult to tear through whole teams, but it can even run Refresh in that last slot to troll any Supportceus not named Arceus-Water.
Looking at the critera...
Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.
Groundceus has very impressive offensive capability, having extremely strong Earthquakes at +2 and Stone Edge typically taking out most of it's checks providing it hits. Defensively it can run investment in its physical bulk and become one of the best counters to Zekrom, a large threat in the meta. Most of Groundceus's checks can be taken care of with that last moveslot it has on the SD set, using Ice Beam to smack Gliscor and Landorus-T, or Shadow Force to hit Giratina-O, Lugia and Bronzong. It could even use ExtremeSpeed to hit weakened Scarfers like Kyogre that may try to revenge kill it. It's probably one of the best cleaners out there. Not being able to smack around Supportceus so easily makes it difficult to tear through whole teams, but it can even run Refresh in that last slot to troll any Supportceus not named Arceus-Water.
Nayrz
1] grassceus as well as waterceus
2] ekiller gives it a ton of competition
3] groudon gives competition, as does lando-t. different opportunity cost etc.
1] grassceus as well as waterceus
2] ekiller gives it a ton of competition
3] groudon gives competition, as does lando-t. different opportunity cost etc.
clefable gets in on lando-t, defensive groudon, mmx and ekiller and finds free turns to pass wishes or heal bell easily against all of them. against stall teams it is not uncommon that you will have an equally easy time to heal bell since those teams have less firepower. saying something is ass because it only truly walls once HO threat is stupid, and being weak to Ho-oh is something you have teammates for, especially on stall where you use clefable.
you guys overhype arc ground a lot, i guess ill get to that sometime when i don't want to sleep (it's mainly got to do with not using arceus-normal though).
you guys overhype arc ground a lot, i guess ill get to that sometime when i don't want to sleep (it's mainly got to do with not using arceus-normal though).
Completely support Grassceus being moved up (shocker!), how this mon got in the same tier as Kyurem-W is beyond me. Being a mon able to check Specsogre consistently that's not Palkia (!) has been very useful from my experience. And contrary to popular belief, you're not total Gengar bait with Twave and/or Earthquake and/or Pursuit.
You listed mostly irrelevant things lol.
+2 252 SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 306-362 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
and with thunder being one of geoxerns most common coverage moves.......... lol. Not to mention you don't threaten xerneas in any way.
No idea what listing resisting blaze's stabs means since that's mostly irrelevant since if it SD's on the switch, tentas fucked since it's easily 2hko'd. Not to mention scald does a pitiful 63% max.
Haze is garbage. Mirror coat is usable I guess since it does have some bulk but considering tenta can't even afford to run it thanks to its already severe 4mss.
Rapid spin is cool, shame all sr setters scare the shit out of it and it's literally set up bait being able to threaten next to nothing. Toxic spikes are cool but scoli does that far more reliably. The list of shit that tenta loses to is simply far too massive to ignore while having little to no legitimate niche.
As for some other shit.
Rockceus staying in B-. It's so fucking ass, thanks to its piss poor typing defensively and offensively it can't threaten much while a huge majority of the tier can threaten a 2hko. The only things it really reliably checks are ray and ho oh which is far too specialized a role to warrant a raise. Not to mention it takes up your oh so valuable arceus slot.
Landoge to A-/B+. Gets shitted on by the majority of the metagame and has problems dealing with the mons that its supposed to check (even more so than in ou where it already is borderline A lol). Unless it runs some shit 252/252+ def set which has a huge myriad of problems in itself, it struggles to come in on any offensive physical attacker while having zero chances of switching into any half decent special attacker. If it opts for something that doesn't have zero offensive presence like say 252atk/252+ spe then it gets destroyed by almost all physical attackers in the tier. Overall I fail to see what makes it so appealing on a team. Lack of reliable recovery really sucks for lando-t.
Phys def clefable is bad. K thx. Shit typing defensively on the physical side isn't good at al due to lack of resists. If there were any sets worth considering it'd be a specially defensive set but I'm already on the fence about that as well since slyveon arguably does that role better though I suppose clefable fares better against cm arceus forms that don't hit it for SE damage, but cm arceus forms tend to run refresh as well which in turn makes clefable little more than set up bait for them. Overall I haven't really seen much usage of it so can't really comment on clefable.
Arc fairy- Solid mon such wow. Will fill in later. Competes with xerneas for a team's fairy type however and has a harder time dealing with mega gar/goth but eh.
edit: Oh yeah, drop mega/scizor please. It's so fucking ass. Fails at checking xerneas/ekiller thanks to the increasingly commoness of fire coverage which shits all over it. It is terrible as a defogger thanks to few safe switchins and has a far harder time pressuring mons than other defoggers in the tier (mostly gira and arceus lel).
How about Tentacruel for C
Haruno has pretty much nailed it with respects to Landorus, Clefable and Scizor.
Hack He Must Clefable can switch in on the things you said, but
0 Atk Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%)
okay, now what does Clefable do? it's clearly running Unaware so it just took Stealth Rock damage upon coming in. If it takes another Earthquake it's gonna be pretty low on health, so it's going to want to Wish/Protect its way back up to a nice amount of health before doing anything else. BUT. Clefable uses Wish. Groudon uses Earthquake. Clefable uses Protect. Groudon uses ROAR. Roar goes through Protect, Clefable is thrown out, is at low-ass health and is now kindof useless. I completely disagree that Clefable can come in against defensive Pokemon and do what it wants - in fact, I'd say that defensive Pokemon carrying whirlwind/roar, of which there are a fair few, can come in on Clefable and fuck it up completely, as it can't heal itself and it can't wish pass effectively due to whirlwind throwing out the incoming teammember who needs a Wish.
Its 4MSS is awful too. You want Wish+Protect obviously. Moonblast is also an obvious choice as you want to be able to threaten those things you're coming in on. Aromatherapy is also something you need too, as if you're using Clefable on stall I kindof doubt you're running AromaXern, and there really aren't many other clerics besides blobs, which everyone has established are crap now. But wait, you're going to want the always-useful Toxic! Erm, that's five moves for 4 slots. I dare you to drop Moonblast, that would literally be the worst idea ever, Taunt Mewtwo X laughs, Taunt Yveltal laughs, Taunt anything laughs to be honest. drop Toxic and you can do nothing against those Arceus Formes you are supposed to be walling, all CM variants go straight to +6 and you're screwed. drop Aromatherapy and you're either going to be running 2 defensive fairy-types, in which case Mega Gengar will fall to its knees and thank you profusely, and that's just awful synergy for a stall team, or you'll be running Blissey too, and Blissey is ass so yeah.
Not to mention that Clefable as a cleric is awful, it's not at all hard to force it to burn its Aromatherapys extremely quickly. Xerneas can Moonblast away anything that tries to Toxic it, doesn't have to use up its own Aromatherapys to heal itself due to RestTalk, and actually has a huge potential store of Aromatherapys due to being able to call them through Sleep Talk. I do also rather enjoy this, but obviously it's because I'm hideously biased:
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Palkia: 126-150 (32.8 - 39%) -- 6.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
did this to a guy on the ladder, I actually Pressured all his Moonblasts away and he died to 9 Toxics. To be fair Clefable was the last thing on his team, but it was still interesting.
Whereas:
0 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Palkia: 218-260 (56.7 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
But this is off topic. Physically Defensive Xerneas can actually Rest through Ho-Oh's onslaughts if I remember correctly.
TL;DR Physically Defensive Clefable is distinctly mediocre, and it faces the huge issue of not being able to heal itself at all against large parts of opposing stall teams thanks to them being able to phaze it through Protect, so all Clefable can do sometimes is get weaker and weaker and weaker, and its intended Wish recipients can't get healed reliably either, and you can even send your phazers in on it to screw up its recipients if you like. It's also not a hard mon to pressure into burning its Aromatherapys, and it has a distinctly harder time coming in to get one off, whereas, even though I hate to say it, Physically Defensive Xerneas can deal with certain variants of special attackers as well as scaring the crap out of them with its stupidly powerful Moonblast, which murders all of them even when uninvested.
Scizor: I really don't think this should be in A at all, as a check to Arceus-Normal and Xerneas it dies to Overheat/Hidden Power Fire. I know that people say Xerneas should be weakened as it sets up etc etc, but what if Xerneas comes in on say Palkia, and there is a Kyogre still alive on the Xerneas's team? you're not going to want to sack Palkia to get damage, and hitting Xerneas as it sets up then running away is not too good either - you should not have to rely on throwing things in to die against Xerneas so that you can safely revenge kill it. Scizor is also ass for a load of other reasons - my personal favourite set, and I think Sweep uses this too, is Moonblast/HP Fire/Thunder Wave/Aromatheraphy, with either Expert Belt or Leftovers - you can lure in Scizor and kill it with HP Fire/lure in other steel types and severely damage them etc. Also, if Scizor does come in safely on an unboosted Xerneas, it has to play 50/50 each and every time - does it Toxic the Ho-Oh/Kyogre switchin/U-Turn off of them, and die to HP Fire if Xerneas is running it and stays in, or should it Bullet Punch the Xerneas and allow Ho-Oh to come in and wreak havoc?
Defog on Scizor is also complete garbage, it's just really really really really really really really really awful at doing it, and cannot threaten most Stealth Rock users at all - Landorus can hit it with strong EQs if Earth Plate or just chill and force Scizor to Roost and Defog if defensive. Gliscor can Taunt Defog and Roost, can Roost itself and stall Scizor out without a second thought. Dialga laughs and clicks Fire Blast. Heatran... lol. Scizor can't even deal with Arceus-Fairy, who can Will-O-Wisp it and not care at all after that. Defog Arceus dislike coming in on these mons as it is, due to the annoying tendency of them all carrying Toxic - Arceus can however tailor its typing to easily slot in on any team, can run moves to deal with its issues, e.g. EQ for Mega Gengar/Stone Edge for Ho-Oh.
I will admit that Scizor can Pursuit, but even that isn't guaranteed as Gengar can HP Fire or Shadow Ball if Scizor is weak enough, or the invaluable steel-type priority to check Xerneas is gone, mandating that Scizor's team have another backup check to Xerneas.
UTurn/Bullet Punch/Pursuit/Superpower/Toxic/Roost/Defog are all moves Scizor would like to really have, but can't fit all of them sadly. Klefki can priority Toxic arceus types that can steamroll through Scizor before it has a chance to Toxic them. Klefki can take any hit from Xerneas at +2 and can break its Substitutes safely before paralyzing it. Klefki can set up Spikes and can piss off Defog Arceus a hell of a lot more than Scizor can piss off most Stealth Rock users. Klefki can also check Mega Blaze, which is fantastic, and can paralyze loads of fast stuff, which allows teams to check a lot of stuff more loosely (whether this is good or bad teambuilding is a matter of opinion, i will admit it is kindof lazy).
Landorus needs to drop significantly in my opinion, you always want speed on it so that you can Stone Edge speedcrept Ho-Oh before they burn you/EQ Dialga/etc, but by doing this you lose out on bulk, which Landorus needs all of to be able to work efficiently. Choice Band and Life Orb Ho-Oh are amused by Landorus and can absolutely wreck it even through Intimidate. It doesn't have reliable recovery like Gliscor does, and is nastily susceptible to burns, whereas Gliscor can sponge up Sacred Fires easily and can even Taunt Defog (this is more for Sticky teams though). Choice Band Landorus is crap against Extremekiller, it's literally SR damage + like 1 round of Toxic damage and you're dead. Other Landorus can do nothing to Extremekiller compared to what Extremekiler can do, and Intimidate switching doesnt work as SD actually gives Arceus free boosts whilst you do this. the Earth Plate sets are quite nice and powerful, and being able to Intimidate Groudon is nice too, but Gliscor can handle Groudon just fine, as well as being able to sponge up hits from various other physical attackers better. Landorus isn't even that safe a switchin against Zekrom anymore due to the electric dragon's tendency to run Draco Meteor,or even HP Ice - I think it was Nayrz who beat me with this?
anyways, sorry for the huge TLDR, my thoughts are:
Clefable goes no higher than where it is now, B- is in my opinion a little kind but it's fine.
Scizor drops down to at least A-, B+ would actually be better
Landorus needs to not be in the same tier as Palkia and Yveltal, this thing needs to drop to A- at the very least, and I would actually agree with Haruno that B+ isn't a bad fit either
Some other thoughts:
Steelceus is awful this generation, it's a lot worse than Poisonceus is, is complete Ho-Oh bait, cannot run any set which doesn't screw it in some way or another. I would actually drop this to B- or even C+, even the CM set, which isn't that bad lategame, does not make up for the huge opportunity cost of using this thing.
Grassceus is cool, I agree with Manaphy that it deserves more love, B+ sounds like a nice fit, not everybody wants to use Palkia (because they are clearly all awful human beings), and Palkia is not the best fit for certain teams. It is indeed a decent Kyogre check, of which there are a distinct lack, and stall teams use pursuiters anyway so Mega Gengar isn't that big an issue.
Rockceus should be in mid-B, Haruno is right in that its typing is kindof ass sometimes, but a better Ho-Oh counter you will not find anywhere else. It also has the advantage of being able to take on Rayquaza relatively well, as that isn't running EQ anymore really. It actually works better than you'd imagine against Mega Khan, as it can switch in on Return, outspeed and burn it next turn. you can even be cute and run Twave to paralyze Kyogre and Palkia switchins.
Groundceus should in my opinion be A-, but I'm curious as to what other people think of it too.
Psychiceus is something you guys should actually try, pair it with a Fairy Type and you have got yourself one reliable Deoxys-A and all-encompassing Mewtwo counter. I would say this deservves to be higher than it is, B- sounds like a good fit to me.
but low kick khan is a premier threat
earthquake too applepie. Glad to see some discussion going.
B- sounds like too much for psyceus really.
I could see Scizor dropping into mid B even.
Clefable should really be in C somewhere.
Probably dropping lando sounds okay but I reckon A-, it has issues clearly.
Tentacruel should be D/not on the list. It's just bad imo, after testing.
Dubious about where to put fairyceus but with gar around, and that new WoW variant which I'm afraid will run amok it just doesn't seem to great.
We need a rank above S for gengar plox.
B- sounds like too much for psyceus really.
I could see Scizor dropping into mid B even.
Clefable should really be in C somewhere.
Probably dropping lando sounds okay but I reckon A-, it has issues clearly.
Tentacruel should be D/not on the list. It's just bad imo, after testing.
Dubious about where to put fairyceus but with gar around, and that new WoW variant which I'm afraid will run amok it just doesn't seem to great.
We need a rank above S for gengar plox.
Quick thoughts:
Landorus-T: You guys are severely underestimating this Pokemon. Landorus-T can switch in easily on some of the most threatening physical Pokemon (Groudon, Zekrom, Blaziken, Excadrill, Ho-Oh sort of) and set SR, and its one of the most reliable Pokemon in the metagame at doing this due to its trolly 91 Speed and access to U-turn/Toxic to mess with support Arceus formes. It provides useful team support still in Intimidate and Flying-typing which makes it immune to Spikes/Web, and unlike Gliscor it has actual offensive presence. Also, setting up SR as a defensive or offensive Pokemon isn't the only thing Landorus-T can do...it can pull off a good DubDance set with RP to sweep hyper offense and SD to wreck stall once Grassceus is down, and it can also run a cool CB set that can actually check Extremekiller and Arceus-Ground. Lando-T is very easy to fit into most teams - balanced, stall, HO, Sticky Web - it works well on all of them because of its useful attributes. I've even seen some top players run HP Ice Blaziken/Ho-Oh and Ice Beam Groundceus just to deal with this Pokemon lol. Even if some people are preparing for it more I still find Landorus-T is the "go-to Ground-type" for whenever I'm teambuilding and realize I need a Ground mon.
Even if A+ is a bit too high it shouldn't be ranked any lower than Groudon in A rank imo.
Scizor: Fine with moving this to A-, but no lower. Role compression is really important in Ubers and few can compress like Scizor, providing a check to stuff like Deoxys-A/S, Xerneas, and Ekiller and its one of like 3 Pokemon that can stop Mega Gengar from running over stall teams with Pursuit. x4 Fire weakness is kinda lame at times but Kyogre rain support can help make up for it, and with SpD EVs it can survive Mega Gengar's HP Fire. Also it's like one of 4 viable Defoggers, and while its not the best it is more than serviceable for teams that aren't overly hazards weak and Defog Scizor also has a huge advantage in not giving a single crap about Klefki, plus Toxic immunity makes it a good Defogger vs Stall teams since they tend to run stuff like Lugia and cleric Fairies that Scizor easily comes in on. I agree its not as good as it used to be but Scizor is still a really useful and important Pokemon in the metagame and is still one of the first mons considered to do what it does.
Arceus-Ground: Groundceus is cool but I'm hesitant to move it into A rank. For starters, SD is the only set Groundceus can really pull off well. It's a bad support forme since it has large 4MSS (EQ/Stone Edge/Recover is mandatory so only one slot for WoW/Defog/SR/Roar/PSong/Toxic/etc) and can't check Palkia well at all. Groundceus's SD set is very good but is also more easily checked than EKiller since EKiller uses STAB Priority to sweep and Groundceus doesn't, leaving it open to Scarfers like Kyogre, Skymin, Mewtwo, Darkrai, etc. Groundceus also faces much more competition that other formes - nothing can really do what Water/Ghost/Norm/Elec/Poisonceus can do, for example, but Groundceus has to compete with Groudon, Landorus-T, and Gliscor as well, each of them boasting notable advantages without the cost of using up the Arceus forme; in effect, its not that easy to fit Groundceus into a team unless you build around it. Because of the severe competition it faces and lack of versatility I think B+ is a suitable fit, it's a great mon but overhyped imo.
Clefable: B- is fine, it really oughta be in the same rank as Quagsire. Phys Def beats stuff like EKiller and MMX and bulky Grounds, and SpD can beat nonPoison CM Arceus and Geomancy Xerneas, and it provides more team support than Quagsire with Wish/Bell. It has crummy stats, needs Pursuit support, and faces a lot of competition from Xerneas and Sylveon, but Unaware is a cool niche.
Also I made a few changes:
Moved Lucario to B rank: Its super strong, can check Xerneas, and basically tears teams without 252 Speed Wisp Arceus or bulky Ghosts in half. Very strong on Sticky Web teams too.
Added Gothitelle to C+ rank
Moved Aegislash to B Rank: Very strong niche on stall/balanced teams since it Pursuit traps Mega Gengar and is probably the most reliable Xerneas counter. Also a good Toxic spreader since Clerics can't really switch into it and can work as an emergency Mewtwo check. Bit hesitant to put it in B+ but I think B is well justified for it.
Moved Fairy Arceus to B+ Rank
Moved Lugia to A- Rank - Hard to kill and checks like almost everything lol
Dropped Arceus-Fighting to C- Rank - Still has a legit niche in checking EKiller nicely but its pretty bad in the current meta
Landorus-T: You guys are severely underestimating this Pokemon. Landorus-T can switch in easily on some of the most threatening physical Pokemon (Groudon, Zekrom, Blaziken, Excadrill, Ho-Oh sort of) and set SR, and its one of the most reliable Pokemon in the metagame at doing this due to its trolly 91 Speed and access to U-turn/Toxic to mess with support Arceus formes. It provides useful team support still in Intimidate and Flying-typing which makes it immune to Spikes/Web, and unlike Gliscor it has actual offensive presence. Also, setting up SR as a defensive or offensive Pokemon isn't the only thing Landorus-T can do...it can pull off a good DubDance set with RP to sweep hyper offense and SD to wreck stall once Grassceus is down, and it can also run a cool CB set that can actually check Extremekiller and Arceus-Ground. Lando-T is very easy to fit into most teams - balanced, stall, HO, Sticky Web - it works well on all of them because of its useful attributes. I've even seen some top players run HP Ice Blaziken/Ho-Oh and Ice Beam Groundceus just to deal with this Pokemon lol. Even if some people are preparing for it more I still find Landorus-T is the "go-to Ground-type" for whenever I'm teambuilding and realize I need a Ground mon.
Even if A+ is a bit too high it shouldn't be ranked any lower than Groudon in A rank imo.
Scizor: Fine with moving this to A-, but no lower. Role compression is really important in Ubers and few can compress like Scizor, providing a check to stuff like Deoxys-A/S, Xerneas, and Ekiller and its one of like 3 Pokemon that can stop Mega Gengar from running over stall teams with Pursuit. x4 Fire weakness is kinda lame at times but Kyogre rain support can help make up for it, and with SpD EVs it can survive Mega Gengar's HP Fire. Also it's like one of 4 viable Defoggers, and while its not the best it is more than serviceable for teams that aren't overly hazards weak and Defog Scizor also has a huge advantage in not giving a single crap about Klefki, plus Toxic immunity makes it a good Defogger vs Stall teams since they tend to run stuff like Lugia and cleric Fairies that Scizor easily comes in on. I agree its not as good as it used to be but Scizor is still a really useful and important Pokemon in the metagame and is still one of the first mons considered to do what it does.
Arceus-Ground: Groundceus is cool but I'm hesitant to move it into A rank. For starters, SD is the only set Groundceus can really pull off well. It's a bad support forme since it has large 4MSS (EQ/Stone Edge/Recover is mandatory so only one slot for WoW/Defog/SR/Roar/PSong/Toxic/etc) and can't check Palkia well at all. Groundceus's SD set is very good but is also more easily checked than EKiller since EKiller uses STAB Priority to sweep and Groundceus doesn't, leaving it open to Scarfers like Kyogre, Skymin, Mewtwo, Darkrai, etc. Groundceus also faces much more competition that other formes - nothing can really do what Water/Ghost/Norm/Elec/Poisonceus can do, for example, but Groundceus has to compete with Groudon, Landorus-T, and Gliscor as well, each of them boasting notable advantages without the cost of using up the Arceus forme; in effect, its not that easy to fit Groundceus into a team unless you build around it. Because of the severe competition it faces and lack of versatility I think B+ is a suitable fit, it's a great mon but overhyped imo.
Clefable: B- is fine, it really oughta be in the same rank as Quagsire. Phys Def beats stuff like EKiller and MMX and bulky Grounds, and SpD can beat nonPoison CM Arceus and Geomancy Xerneas, and it provides more team support than Quagsire with Wish/Bell. It has crummy stats, needs Pursuit support, and faces a lot of competition from Xerneas and Sylveon, but Unaware is a cool niche.
Also I made a few changes:
Moved Lucario to B rank: Its super strong, can check Xerneas, and basically tears teams without 252 Speed Wisp Arceus or bulky Ghosts in half. Very strong on Sticky Web teams too.
Added Gothitelle to C+ rank
Moved Aegislash to B Rank: Very strong niche on stall/balanced teams since it Pursuit traps Mega Gengar and is probably the most reliable Xerneas counter. Also a good Toxic spreader since Clerics can't really switch into it and can work as an emergency Mewtwo check. Bit hesitant to put it in B+ but I think B is well justified for it.
Moved Fairy Arceus to B+ Rank
Moved Lugia to A- Rank - Hard to kill and checks like almost everything lol
Dropped Arceus-Fighting to C- Rank - Still has a legit niche in checking EKiller nicely but its pretty bad in the current meta
Posting in replay to fireburn's post will add reasons later.
Lando-T A-/B+
Scizor fine but could move to B+
Arceus-Ground at least A-
Clefable idk
Luc Fine
Goth should be lower IMO
Aegi Fine
Fairyceus Fine
Lugia Fine
Fightceus is so shitty D rank pls
Lando-T A-/B+
Scizor fine but could move to B+
Arceus-Ground at least A-
Clefable idk
Luc Fine
Goth should be lower IMO
Aegi Fine
Fairyceus Fine
Lugia Fine
Fightceus is so shitty D rank pls
- Status