Remember, Alakazam is just as powerful and not much slower. Dark Void is, in my opinion, what broke it, so I think without that he would be OU very easily. He still crumples under Breloom's Mach Punch.
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Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking
- Thread starter Chou Toshio
- Start date
Don't forget Darkia also has Hypnosis, so it can still put things to sleep, a bit less reliably though.
Really though, Darkia is a devastating Nasty Plot user with mach speed, its defenses aren't to shabby either, so its not easily checked outside of maybe Breloom's Mach Punch.
Also, if I am not mistaken Darkria comes very close to still outclassing Thundurus-N without Dark Void, being faster, stronger, bulkier, and without a Stealth Rock weakness, before you look at this theoretical Darkia, we must ask ourselfs why Thundurus is still banned.
Really though, Darkia is a devastating Nasty Plot user with mach speed, its defenses aren't to shabby either, so its not easily checked outside of maybe Breloom's Mach Punch.
Also, if I am not mistaken Darkria comes very close to still outclassing Thundurus-N without Dark Void, being faster, stronger, bulkier, and without a Stealth Rock weakness, before you look at this theoretical Darkia, we must ask ourselfs why Thundurus is still banned.
Ehhhh... Darkrai without Dark Void? Eh... honestly, it would be incredibly underwhelming...
Darkrai's defenses aren't bad, but it has zero useful resistances. It would be a somewhat-faster-gengar that:
1) can't switch into anything (missing those immunities)
2) doesn't have disable
3) doesn't have pain split
Really, the only think Darkrai could do is set up Nasty Plot and try to sweep. It's something, but honestly, not something great. It's not easy to remove all the priority users and CS users that could just one shot Darkrai without a hitch. Comparing Nasty Plot Darkrai to set up sweepers like Volcarona and Salamence, after one turn of Set Up, Dakrai is running slower and hitting weaker than Mence/Volc after their boosting moves. (Volc and Mence have 120 base power STAB-- 120 x 1.5 = 180-- where as Darkrai has an 80 base power stab-- 80 x 2 = 160)
Basically flawless 2 move coverage, fair bulk, and Nasty Plot are nice but... well, if you thought Slaking's lack of resistance would be a problem, just check this thing's. Darkrai would struggle to maintain its OU spot. It'd be in OU for sure (thanks to the fan boys), but would not be a top threat.
Don't say Hypnosis and expect me to take it seriously.
Darkrai's defenses aren't bad, but it has zero useful resistances. It would be a somewhat-faster-gengar that:
1) can't switch into anything (missing those immunities)
2) doesn't have disable
3) doesn't have pain split
Really, the only think Darkrai could do is set up Nasty Plot and try to sweep. It's something, but honestly, not something great. It's not easy to remove all the priority users and CS users that could just one shot Darkrai without a hitch. Comparing Nasty Plot Darkrai to set up sweepers like Volcarona and Salamence, after one turn of Set Up, Dakrai is running slower and hitting weaker than Mence/Volc after their boosting moves. (Volc and Mence have 120 base power STAB-- 120 x 1.5 = 180-- where as Darkrai has an 80 base power stab-- 80 x 2 = 160)
Basically flawless 2 move coverage, fair bulk, and Nasty Plot are nice but... well, if you thought Slaking's lack of resistance would be a problem, just check this thing's. Darkrai would struggle to maintain its OU spot. It'd be in OU for sure (thanks to the fan boys), but would not be a top threat.
Don't say Hypnosis and expect me to take it seriously.
You're right about this, but to be fair it's actually not that big of a deal. Take a look at Zam, he doesn't have any of these qualities either, yet his usage is still very high. People utilize Zam to an extent where he's not used to tank a hit, but to be a revenge killer or a pivot from U-Turn.
Darkrai is in the same boat, however he trades Zam's ability of being unable to OHKO (because of MG+sash) for more respectable bulk (which is somewhat equally good). Both are not designed to take hits, but overcome that and you get their powerful killing potential. Similarly to Zam, he's an amazing revenge killer, but he also poses the threat to set-up a +2. Even without NP, Darkrai hits respectably hard. He has an impressive movepool, and his stats secures that he wins so many Speed wars aside from priority and Scarfers. I'd say he's a stronger Zam, mainly because his movepool poses more of a threat.
I believe that without Dark Void, Darkrai will stay in Ubers because he still "threatens" of having NP. He's already powerful in his own right without any boosts, and because so he easily puts immediate pressure. This is what would give NP Darkrai his free turn of set-up, and with a +2 under his belt he still hurts a lot. His damage is not quite Ubers standards with a +2, but at the same time that damage is more than what OU can handle. What makes him stronger is his Spe, being so high that the only thing that scares him out are priority and Scarfers (something that Thundy-T lacks). Even then, his bulk prevents him from being OHKO'd by some revenge killers, so it makes Darkrai more difficult to take down. It should be noted that his decent bulk and neutrality to SR means he'll stay quite healthy and survive many neutral hits, something Volc/Mence can't boast.
If he would become OU then he would definitely at least be a huge threat, and likewise teams would need to take into consideration of beating both a boosting and non-boosting set. I'd say he'd be a bit too strong for OU though, especially with his Spe+NP securing safe sweeps.
Yeah I don't like how some people are comparing Darkrai to Alakazam. Sure, they have similar stats, but Darkrai having access to Nasty Ploy makes Darkrai that much more of a threat than Alakazam. I mean come on, imagine how terrifying Alakazam would be if it got Nasty Plot? Darkrai is the result of an Alakazam that got a bit bulkier and got access to Nasty Plot. By no means would Darkrai be underwhelming like someone mentioned earlier, it would be one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier, and with perfect coverage there wouldn't be much that could stop it. You can't really compare Darkrai to Gengar because they are completely different Pokemon. Gengar doesn't have Nasty Plot, it's frail as fuck, and it's meant to be an offensive spinblocker. They're not comparable at all. Oh, and Breloom isn't on every team, so stop saying that Breloom would make Darkrai less viable. In my opinion, Darkrai would probably be suspected, and most likely banned to Ubers. A bulkier Alakazam with access to NP just sounds way to dangerous IMO.
Let's put it this way. If Alakazam is considered a top tier threat in OU right now, and Darkrai is very similar to Alakazam, then how the hell would Darkrai be struggling to maintain its OU spot? I really doubt that Darkrai would "struggle" to maintain its OU spot just because it lost Dark Void. It's an amazing Pokemon on its own, and it would easily be one the greatest sweepers/revenge killers in OU. Alakazam has a weak BP STAB, Pursuit trapped, and weak to common types, yet Alakazam isn't struggling to maintain its OU spot. I clearly remember how dangerous Darkrai was, and honestly Dark Void was less of a problem to me then when it got up a NP boost. I had times where it set up a NP boost before it even put anyone to sleep. Easily. A Pokemon like Breloom depends more on Spore because of its abysmal speed, frail defenses, and it NEEDS a SD boost if it wants to sweep. Honestly, LO Darkrai can do some serious damage even without a boost, and it doesn't have to rely on a priority move to do so.
Let's put it this way. If Alakazam is considered a top tier threat in OU right now, and Darkrai is very similar to Alakazam, then how the hell would Darkrai be struggling to maintain its OU spot? I really doubt that Darkrai would "struggle" to maintain its OU spot just because it lost Dark Void. It's an amazing Pokemon on its own, and it would easily be one the greatest sweepers/revenge killers in OU. Alakazam has a weak BP STAB, Pursuit trapped, and weak to common types, yet Alakazam isn't struggling to maintain its OU spot. I clearly remember how dangerous Darkrai was, and honestly Dark Void was less of a problem to me then when it got up a NP boost. I had times where it set up a NP boost before it even put anyone to sleep. Easily. A Pokemon like Breloom depends more on Spore because of its abysmal speed, frail defenses, and it NEEDS a SD boost if it wants to sweep. Honestly, LO Darkrai can do some serious damage even without a boost, and it doesn't have to rely on a priority move to do so.
I could see a mix set becoming very viable, as Metagross has a great special move pool and a decent 95 SpAtk. I remember a similar set being run in gen 4, and it was moderately good at eliminating Metagross' usual counters,
Honestly, I also thought about Alakazam when I wrote that post too-- but I don't think you can put Darkrai and Alakazam in the same boat. Magic Guard does something truly unique for Alakazam, and he had zero chance of being OU without it-- this is proven in that Alakazam was only UU in BW1 metagame-- a much slower, easy-going metagame than BW2. If Alakazam didn't have Magic Guard, it would be even more terrible in BW2.
What makes Alakazam absurdly annoying is that it's guaranteed to having a working Focus Sash if it is using Focus Sash. There is ZERO way to break the sash without hitting zam with a direct attack (passive damage doesn't work). Psychic has low enough base power that there are plenty of Pokemon who could survive an attack and 1 shot Alakazam. However, add in that guaranteed Sash, Alakazam's Speed, Power and flawless coverage, and now you're wondering how the hell you take this thing down without losing a Pokemon.
When you have a bad match up in against Zam, it's not like revenging other fast and frail threats-- you can't just making some intelligent switches to bring your Scarfer/priority user into play on a resisted move before killing Zam, because Sash guarantees Zam a chance to survive-- and with its coverage, it likely has a good shot at killing your scarfer.
PLUS there's that ridiculously powerful Life Orb set boosting Zam's power-- but because Guard removes LO damage, it can be incredibly hard to tell if it is LO. In any case it's impossible to tell if you can OHKO that LO zam or not until you've already let Alakazam start attacking.
Honestly, Darkrai has none of these advantages, and is in a very similar boat to where Alakazam would have been in BW1 when it didn't have Magic Guard. It has a little more bulk, making it much harder to one shot by randoms, but its lack of resistances and exposure to EVERY type of passive damage is detracting from its case. It brings zero defensive merit to the table too (you can't use it to counter anything).
I remember playing in the Darkrai suspect test-- and honestly, without Void, it wouldn't have been anything special. OU? Sure... (or at least probably) but there's no way it would be broken (sent to ubers) and I doubt it would be a top threat.
First of all, Thundurus-N does not come close to being outclassed by Darkrai. Thundurus has Prankster T-Wave, an immunity to Ground and STAB on Thunder.
Second, I agree that Darkrai wouldn't be Uber without Dark Void. Would it be worse than Alakazam? No.
What you're forgetting about Alakazam is that if it runs a Focus Sash, it doesn't get to boost its Special Attack (thanks to no Nasty Plot), which makes it pretty weak imo. Anything that can take the Psychic and Fighting moves, and isn't doubly weak to its other attacks can wall it. If it runs Life Orb, it gets killed by everything that moves. Plus, there are a few things that can wall both forms, like mixed wall Hippowdon and Jirachi outside of sun. Darkrai can boost its Special Attack, gets perfect coverage with two relatively high-powered moves, and isn't nearly as frail as Alakazam.
Second, I agree that Darkrai wouldn't be Uber without Dark Void. Would it be worse than Alakazam? No.
What you're forgetting about Alakazam is that if it runs a Focus Sash, it doesn't get to boost its Special Attack (thanks to no Nasty Plot), which makes it pretty weak imo. Anything that can take the Psychic and Fighting moves, and isn't doubly weak to its other attacks can wall it. If it runs Life Orb, it gets killed by everything that moves. Plus, there are a few things that can wall both forms, like mixed wall Hippowdon and Jirachi outside of sun. Darkrai can boost its Special Attack, gets perfect coverage with two relatively high-powered moves, and isn't nearly as frail as Alakazam.
You guys are forgetting that Calm Mind exists. Perfect? No. Is it really comparable to Nasty Plot? Not really, but it still boosts Special Attack. Mono-Dark is not a great typing. Immunity to Psychic is nice, as is the resistance to Pursuit and Ghost attacks (you're obviously not pursuit bait). But you're weak to Fighting in addition to Bug.
While i agree that Darkrai without Dark Void would probably be manageable in OU, saying that it would be just another Alakazam is wrong (or even a worse Zam, as i think i read someone saying). Let's not forget Darkrai's better neutral coverage with just two moves, access to Nasty Plot, better coverage moves (BoltBeam mainly), and the huge bulk increase (enough to survive many STAB attacks from defensive Pokemon and even priority from the likes of Scizor, although weakness to Mach Punch does hurt). A 4 attacks LO set with Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt is able to OHKO almost every offensive Pokemon in OU after SR, with only a few exceptions that are very bulky and are not weak to any of Darkrai's moves, such as Jirachi and Scizor. It is also the second fastest unboosted Pokemon in OU, second only to Jolteon. This alone would make it a fantastic cleaner, arguably a much better than Alakazam will ever be. Then we also have the very potent SubPlot set, which would capitalize on the switches that Darkrai forces to either start breaking defensive cores with its great power, or hurting faster Pokemon that try to revenge kill it thanks to the protection granted by Sub. Dark Void or not, Darkrai poses a huge offensive threat for any team, thanks to Nasty Plot and much better coverage than Alakazam, unlike Alakazam which is very easy to wall if its using its most common set with great Pokemon found in OU such as Jirachi and SpD Hippo. The only thing that Darkrai can't do and Zam can is act as a fail-safe against dangerous Pokemon.
tl;dr Darkrai would be possibly manageable in OU without Dark Void, but still a top-tier threat nonetheless.
tl;dr Darkrai would be possibly manageable in OU without Dark Void, but still a top-tier threat nonetheless.
It really blows my mind how some people just don't see how amazing Darkrai would be. Everyone is focusing on its negatives. Have we really gotten to a point where 135/125 offense and speed, acceptable defenses, and a boosting move is considered an underwhelming sweeper? Damn, I can't imagine how underwhelming things like Salamence and Dragonite will be next gen with that mentality.
I forgot Darkrai has Ice Beam and Thunderbolt... that makes it a lot more dangerous. Only using Dark Pulse + Focus Blast coverage though, it honestly would not be that scary. Dark Pulse's 80 base power really caps how scary this thing can be. With Ice Beam and Thunderbolt though, Darkrai can snatch a lot more super effective coverage to make up for a lack of powerful STAB.
70 / 90 / 90 is actually pretty good-- you could visualize it as being about halfway between Starmie and Kingdra; which we know are both Pokemon that can take a hit or two. Having relatively rare Ghost and Psychic attacks as its only switch in opportunities (Dark moves are hard to predict, and are often the inapplicable Pursuit or Sucker Punch anyway) is annoying in a meta where all teams are pressed for resistances.
But, considering its Speed and ease of sweeping late game, it would be highly valuable even without any defensive merit/utility.
I honestly think the still unmentioned Choice Scarf set would add a completely different dimension to the revenge killer game too. As of right now, every CS abuser faster than Terrakion is destroyed by TTar. Latios, Latias, Starmie, and Gengar all are wary to use a choice scarf because of the ease of which they get taken down by pursuit when locked in. Even Jolteon (people use this, lol) does basically nothing to TTar and comes close to getting OHKO'd by Pursuit as it retreats.
Considering Darkrai outspeeds and kills all of them, is resistant to Pursuit, and has Trick to boot means that it will totally change the revenge killer game. Scarf Terrakion and Keldeo become a lot less reliable when there is an easy to use, reliable (not pursuit bait) scarfer that outspeeds them and can do massive damage. It's true that most Scarf Darkrai would have to rely on the shaky Focus Blast to deal with Terrakion, and would need prior damage to take out Keldeo, but it's even possible for Darkrai to troll them both by running Psychic (which also fucks Breloom or Conk thinking to switch in). Unlike Latios and Co. who always have to be wary of when to use Psyshock (because of TTar), Darkrai can more freely lock itself into Psychic because of its Dark resistance.
Darkrai
@Choice Scarf
-Dark Pulse
-Focus Blast
-Ice Beam / Psychic
-Trick / Psychic / Thunderbolt
By the way, Timid Scarf Darkrai also outspeeds Timid Max Speed Venusaur in sun, and +2 Jolly Max Speed Dragonite (something Latios cannot do), and Jolly Stoutland in Sand. It also speed ties Jolly Max Speed +2 Gyarados.
So after factoring in Thunderbolt and Ice Beam (and I had to think more about how the CS game would change with Darkrai around), I have to agree with alexwolf that Darkrai would still be a top OU threat. I don't think there's any chance of it being broken-- since Dark Pulse's low base power handicaps it (as does F Blasts's acc), it has solid checks, doesn't have any defensive merit, and is vulnerable to every form of priority, status, and passive damage-- but its stupidly good sheer Speed, unrivaled coverage, decent bulk and decent power will make it a real menace.
70 / 90 / 90 is actually pretty good-- you could visualize it as being about halfway between Starmie and Kingdra; which we know are both Pokemon that can take a hit or two. Having relatively rare Ghost and Psychic attacks as its only switch in opportunities (Dark moves are hard to predict, and are often the inapplicable Pursuit or Sucker Punch anyway) is annoying in a meta where all teams are pressed for resistances.
But, considering its Speed and ease of sweeping late game, it would be highly valuable even without any defensive merit/utility.
I honestly think the still unmentioned Choice Scarf set would add a completely different dimension to the revenge killer game too. As of right now, every CS abuser faster than Terrakion is destroyed by TTar. Latios, Latias, Starmie, and Gengar all are wary to use a choice scarf because of the ease of which they get taken down by pursuit when locked in. Even Jolteon (people use this, lol) does basically nothing to TTar and comes close to getting OHKO'd by Pursuit as it retreats.
Considering Darkrai outspeeds and kills all of them, is resistant to Pursuit, and has Trick to boot means that it will totally change the revenge killer game. Scarf Terrakion and Keldeo become a lot less reliable when there is an easy to use, reliable (not pursuit bait) scarfer that outspeeds them and can do massive damage. It's true that most Scarf Darkrai would have to rely on the shaky Focus Blast to deal with Terrakion, and would need prior damage to take out Keldeo, but it's even possible for Darkrai to troll them both by running Psychic (which also fucks Breloom or Conk thinking to switch in). Unlike Latios and Co. who always have to be wary of when to use Psyshock (because of TTar), Darkrai can more freely lock itself into Psychic because of its Dark resistance.
Darkrai
@Choice Scarf
-Dark Pulse
-Focus Blast
-Ice Beam / Psychic
-Trick / Psychic / Thunderbolt
By the way, Timid Scarf Darkrai also outspeeds Timid Max Speed Venusaur in sun, and +2 Jolly Max Speed Dragonite (something Latios cannot do), and Jolly Stoutland in Sand. It also speed ties Jolly Max Speed +2 Gyarados.
So after factoring in Thunderbolt and Ice Beam (and I had to think more about how the CS game would change with Darkrai around), I have to agree with alexwolf that Darkrai would still be a top OU threat. I don't think there's any chance of it being broken-- since Dark Pulse's low base power handicaps it (as does F Blasts's acc), it has solid checks, doesn't have any defensive merit, and is vulnerable to every form of priority, status, and passive damage-- but its stupidly good sheer Speed, unrivaled coverage, decent bulk and decent power will make it a real menace.
When you mean in play, do you mean actually out on the field or just alive? Because I don't really see a point in Jirachi having an auto TR ability that only benefits itself (which it wouldn't really benefit from anyway). Victini on the other hand could abuse that ability very nicely because of V-create's speed drop and its high BP moves. Jirachi is rather fast anyway, and it can't really abuse TR as well as some other Pokemon would. I feel like slow opposing Pokemon like Conkeldurr could actually take advantage of Jirachi's ability and ironically use it against you. Serene Grace would still be a LOT better. Unless you have some kind of explanation or I'm just completely misinterpreting this.
Actually if jirachi holds iron ball it would be able to go down to 90 speed which is slower than anything without a -speed nature except for ferrothorn. So comparing it to the scarf set in exchange for 30% extra flinch chance it outruns far more threats, can invest in bulk, and has the freedom to switch moves. Not to mention most trick users would absolutely hate getting an iron ball and jirachi could even run trick itself to cripple something with iron ball or swap around anything it gets tricked. Even without iron ball it's only a bit faster than neutral base 70 speed so it could also run some sort of life orb or choice set and screw with offensive teams (which is likely much better than something like iron ball actually since a bunch of things slower than base 70 have the bulk to deal with jirachi anyway).
Yes, but is that really enough of a reason to run it over Serene Grace? Just to Trick an Iron Ball? Besides, Prankster Sableye does a much better job at pulling that off anyway.
No, you're missing the point. It's main purpose is not to be tricked away but to make it slower, that was just to show one of the things it could potentially do similarly to the scarf set but crippling faster pokemon rather than walls. The only thing you're really sacrificing compared to the scarf set is the 30% extra flinch chance. Now jirachi can actually reliably revenge kill anything that it got out-sped by before, has better bulk and can use an attack boosting nature instead of speed boosting (I don't think it really gets any useful kos but it's still something).
EDIT: Oh yeah I also mentioned that life orb or choice sets might be better to just screw over offensive teams so it's not just tricking an iron ball. It would make fast and frail teams practically non-existent.
30% extra flinch chance is pretty big though; nobody likes being Haxrachi'd to death. Jirachi's also fairly weak without a boost, so anything with decent bulk that doesn't mind being Tricked an Iron Ball can set up on it, and even hyperoffensive teams have Scizor/Breloom/etc.
I've actually used Iron ball Gengar to absorb toxic spikes, and was able to trick it onto a starmie once. Aside from that one game, it was terrible.
I know how big that extra chance is, I lost a game because magneton got flinched to death...
Personally I don't really think that the iron ball idea would be that effective, just thought it would be kind of interesting since usually iron ball really isn't very useful at all but on this it might actually become semi-viable especially if things started running slower than min speed Jirachi like Scizor to avoid being killed by a boosting item set (unboosted fire punch still has a good chance of ohkoing w/ stealth rock and scizor doesn't ohko w/o life orb). I don't actually think that tricking iron ball is very good strategy at all I was just sort of putting it out there as an idea... a bad idea I'll admit.
I would definitely advocate some sort of boosting item over iron ball. For example, I looked at some calcs for choice band jirachi and you can ohko pretty much any setup sweeper in OU except for volcarona of course. In order to deal with this Scizor and Breloom would probably have to run slower than min speed jirachi and ohko it with +2 Life Orb Bug Bite/Low Sweep. Also CB and max atk turns a lot of 3khos into 2hkos like defensive Politoed with thunderpunch(you need to sacrifice coverage if you want u-turn but it already had that issue with scarf).
That's an interesting idea. It would make Jirachi reasonably "fast", strong and bulky. Pokémon around the Base 70 mark would have to choose between outspeeding Jirachi and outspeeding other mons. Given the strength of that ability, however, there should probably be something to cancel it out, otherwise speed tiers would be really screwed up.
What if Flygon had the ability Tinted Lens
I wish I could put into words why I believe this fits something like Flygon, but I cannot. I just look at it and believe it is something that would fit its appearance. From the FireRed/LeafGreen Pokedex entry: "It hides itself by kicking up desert sand with its wings. Red covers shield its eyes from sand." Sounds legit enough for me. It would be running around with a mediocre attack and a solid base speed firing off unresisted STAB Outrages like its job. It wouldn't be supid powerful though since based on the calcs its scarf set get walled by many pokemon still.
What does everyone think?
I wish I could put into words why I believe this fits something like Flygon, but I cannot. I just look at it and believe it is something that would fit its appearance. From the FireRed/LeafGreen Pokedex entry: "It hides itself by kicking up desert sand with its wings. Red covers shield its eyes from sand." Sounds legit enough for me. It would be running around with a mediocre attack and a solid base speed firing off unresisted STAB Outrages like its job. It wouldn't be supid powerful though since based on the calcs its scarf set get walled by many pokemon still.
What does everyone think?
I think that levitate is still the better skill. Ground/Dragon is solid coverage to begin with, and you've got two other moveslots for moves like fire punch, stone edge, and superpower. It might be worth dropping the ground/spikes immunity for fire blast and sub/toxic, but I don't see it rising to OU due to this ability.
That's nothing compared to Tinted Lens. The Banded Set on a resisted hit does more than Kyurem-B's Outrage on something like, say Forretress. Tinted Lens would be a great ability for Flygon for a matter of fact. It's already outclassed by Garchomp as a wall-breaker, and adding U-turn to the mix makes it actually have CONSIDERATION over Garchomp. Noone use Flygon anyways, even with Leveitatae. It has a niche on VoltTurn teams with Earthquake problems, but nothing else. I would say Tinited Lens would plummet Flygon's utility as a wallbreaker. Think about it this way. DragMag is cool, but now what? Flygon turns the point of DragMag to a liability.