Theorymon Sessions

[ryan]

I don't know that I would say Roost Mantine would instantly leave NU. It's kind of like Amoonguss. It's good in all tiers thanks to a few different factors (Spore, Regenerator, bulk), but it's also not stellar in any tier which is why it stayed NU for so long (and likely still would be if not for spamming its use in RU). I feel like Mantine would very much be the same way. I may be off here, though. It might go up to OU a la Gastrodon in its niche to check Rain and specific threats in OU in general.

Regardless, like any other defensive Pokemon, it would appreciate reliable recovery. I think this kind of makes lackluster discussion because it's sort of like how Weezing and Misdreavus would be great with Recover. They're NU for a reason. With reliable recovery, both of them would be much more likely to go up to RU.

 

[jake]

Just restating something from the first post for emphasis:

Any posts that declare brokenness of any given mon will be deleted and/or edited, depending on the rest of the content. Keep that in mind, please!

...

Remember, this is all just an attempt to get you to expand on how you think, so don't get too caught up in brokenness or the like.

Please don't make statements such as "x would definitely leave NU if it had this" - that's not the point of this thread. How would NU deal with it if this change happened right now? We don't really care if it would supposedly change tiers, because we'd have to deal with it until tier shifts anyway and I made it incredibly clear that you shouldn't argue about how 'broken' one of these Pokemon would be (nor should you suggest things that would make any given NU Pokemon that 'broken').

I'm not trying to target any single person for this, but multiple people have relied on that statement in the last few pages. Be imaginative here! (and don't use such a statement to imply that it'll be good - explain why instead!)

 

[Leafshield]

I apologize if I didn't mention enough how it could effect the NU tier. I realize that the thread isn't some random conversation where "hey! What if this guy had this! It'd be OU for sure!" I knew you were talking to me, I will give a more fleshed out analysis on how Roost on Mantine would effect the NU metagame instead of the standard metagame in general. (i did have my reasons, but I was on my phone so I tried to make it short and sweet. Obviously, this wasn't as effective to the conversation as my tired mind had hoped it would be :P)

For starters, Mantine is already, in my opinion, an excellent mon in the NU metagame. It's amazing typing, unheard-of Special Bulk, good movepool, and handy resistances to Grass, Bug, Fire, Fighting, Steel (lol) and an immunity(ies) to Water (if you decide to use Water Absorb) and Ground make him a fantastic mixed wall with some investment in his much less remarkable physical defenses. He also carries a STAB in Air Slash that deals Super Effective damage to some of the most dangerous physical attackers in the tier (Primeape, Sawk, Scolipede) as well as many special attacking powerhouses (such as Ludicolo). His primary STAB, being Water-Type, is automatically good, hitting major mons like Golurk, Golem, and Charizard with great damage. His walling potential is also fantastic in this meta, stopping cold the previously mentioned Ludicolo, Gardevoir lacking Thunderbolt, any form of Gorebyss including after a Shell Smash, and most notably the recent drop-down Jynx, who has taken to most teams quite comforably as a late game cleaner, revenge killer, or setup sweeper. Mantine deals with her easily, as his most popular set, RestTalk+2 Attacks, allows him to absorb sleep and hopefully NOT draw a Scald and doing some decent damage with Air Slash (I personally run Toxic and Scald on the RestTalk set because I don't like how Air Slash only 4HKOs Jynx with no SpDef investment.). He has the capability to be the perfect Electric-Type lure in any situation, giving your Zebstrika a Lightningrod boost for example, allowing it to get a quick sweep going. He's truly an effective mon, shining most in the previous stages of the NU metagame for being able to wall Gorebyss (even after a Shell Smash!) and Ludicolo like it's not a big deal. What's bad for him now is that he has no reliable recovery outside of ChestoRest, which is fairly unpopular (I think I've seen 1, and the guy I played even said it sucked.), making him easy to wear down, even with neutral Special attacks.

Roost would remedy this. Roost let's Mantine heal himself reliably and quickly, without having to bet it all on whether or not he draws the right move. There are two big reasons I can think of as to why Roost would change Mantine, and the metagame around him.

• Mantine can now self recover. Honestly, this may sound like a "well no shit!" kind of thing, but people may not realize how valuable self recovery is for a wall. Mantine can actally stay around! Your team can no longer say, "Oh, I got this guy's Mantine under 60%, he's useless now!". Now, Mantine can roost up and be back on his feet (er, torso?) at the cost of a turn, removing the hard work of your opponent. It's Roost's main purpose and it lets Mantine perform its job multiple times in a match, as opposed to the single time or two he gets now.
  
• Mantine having Roost automatically frees up a single moveslot. This is amazing for the Manta Ray as it allows him to forego the usual Sleep Talk for a more useful coverage move, such as Ice Beam or a Hidden Power (HP Fire to troll Jynx maybe?). Personally, I could see a utility move being run over it, such as Toxic, Haze, or Mirror Coat. This allows Mantine to fully assume a role as a support Pokemon, and giving your team a way to keep set-up sweepers at bay or to cripple a foe for the rest of the match. People may not be able to use Seismitoad to counter their Mantine when they suddenly get hit with fully invested HP Grass. (of course that would be referring to part of the more common MANtine set, which would now afford to stay around longer with the addition of Roost)

I think, as a result of Mantine getting Roost, that Psychic-Type Special Attackers (Jynx in particular) may start running Psyshock more over Psychic, allowing the opponent to become more suceptible to being forced out by Physical walls, especially when choiced. It changes the game for many Special attackers, and most likely will force Ludicolo to drop even further in usage that it used to. All in all, it is a welcomed change, and I think it would change the meta.

So, sorry for my first post being so blunt (not only that, but talking about something going up in the tiers instead of how it may effect this one), and I hope you guys took the time to read it. I enjoy reading long, thought out posts, so I'm not sure why I'm not also doing them, but shoving a paragraph or two into the quick reply box and releasing it XD.

 

[ryan]

I encourage people to continue replying to Leafshield's extended response on Mantine because I feel like it's a quality post, but another theorymon popped into my head that might be interesting.

What if Lumineon received Quiver Dance?

Flavor-wise, for whatever reason, Lumineon receives a lot of Bug-type moves in its level-up movepool. Additionally, when I think of Quiver Dance, I think of fluttery Pokemon such as Volcarona, Venomoth, and Butterfree. I can only imagine Lumineon would be somewhat like this underwater.

Right off the bat when I look at Lumineon, I see its lackluster stats. It has poor bulk, poor attacking stats, and above average speed, sitting at base 91. One of its redeeming factors, however, is its coveted ability in Storm Drain which raises its SpA by one stage. This means Lumineon can switch into Water-type moves and benefit from them, making Pokemon that are weak to Water-type moves obvious partners. This also means that if Lumineon switches into a Water-type move, it can gather one Quiver Dance boost and be ready to do some major damage to the opponent's team. In addition to this, while its movepool is small, it is well enough equipped to have solid neutral coverage. Almost every special attacker would appreciate having Quiver Dance in its movepool, but would this be enough to make Lumineon a legitimate threat? A set I feel would be most standard is as follows.

Lumineon@Leftovers | Trait: Storm Drain
Modest Nature | 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 SpDef
- Quiver Dance
- Surf/Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Signal Beam/HP Grass

This set allows Lumineon to have optimal coverage and power. HP Grass provides the best coverage, but Signal Beam only loses out on coverage against the rare threats of Tentacool and Frillish. Signal Beam is, in my opinion, the better choice, particularly so because it allows Lumineon to beat Ludicolo more easily. If Ludicolo is a huge threat to your team, you can even run Swift Swim over Storm Drain.

Anyways, not much else to say. What do you guys think? Would Quiver Dance Lumineon be worth trying? Personally, if it legitimately learned the move, I would at least test it out, but mainly I want to know what you guys think. Let me know~

 

[Farobi]

Mantine getting Roost.

The bane of rain teams without any Electric types. Mantine is quite decent in the metagame today as it can check all of the offensive drops quite well, it also checks some commonly used Pokemon such as Misdreavus, Golem, Golurk, Samurott, etc of the previous meta. Roost on Mantine will make it much more better in doing what it does, checking numerous threats while still having the survivability to check even more. More people will opt to run HP [Electric] as opposed to Grass, as even a super effective HP [Grass] after Roost wouldn't be as beneficial on special sweepers. The only thing holding Mantine back is its SR weakness, which promptly chips off 25% of Mantine's HP, making it much more vulnerable to attackers. Yes, Roost may change that, but it sacrifices recovering a chunk of its health in one turn, making something like Rotom-Fan come in on it, easily getting rid of the momentum. We may see more Mantine in stall/balanced teams, though fitting a defensive Mantine on an offensive team is pretty silly.

Overall, Roost on Mantine makes it much more difficult to handle, but its easier to deal with if you have an Electric type in the wings. Think of it like Amoonguss in NU, annoying but manageable.

Quiver Dance Lumineon.

Ah, the fastest Pokemon of Stage 8 that learns U-turn and isn't weak to rocks. QD Lumineon is an alright sweeper, capable of setting up on the likes of Alomomola , Wartortle (without Haze), and other weakish Pokemon (be careful of Toxic though). The thing that holds Lumineon back is its attacking stats. 69 Special Attack is not too far from Wartortle's. The one thing that makes me use this over Gorebyss is its Speed stat, the ability to run Signal Beam (which isn't even enough to kill Ludicolo, hitting Jynx is good though), and Storm Drain. Having a possible +2 and +1 on Special Attack and Speed on Lumineon, though, can indeed be scary: meaning it does have something to differentiate it from other special sweepers in the tier by being able to come in on any Water type attack, possibly set up, and hope that the opponent's team is frail enough to not withstand a hit from a 69 Base Special Attack Pokemon!

 

[Othesemo]

While I don't doubt that Lumineon would become much more viable with the addition of Quiver Dance, I don't think it would really have the potential to become a top tier threat. Even at +2, with maximum investment, Lumineon falls short of the 2HKO on a number of fairly popular special walls- notably, Seismitoad and Mantine can both switch into hydro pumps freely, and either soften Lumineon up for revenge killing or hit it with toxic, knock off, or whatever they happen to be carrying. And should Lumineon opt for HP Grass to hit Seismitoad, it ends up being completely walled by Jynx, who is similarly immune to its STAB, and is only 3HKOd by +2 252+ HP Grass. All of this assumes that Lumineon managed to either nab two quiver dances, or a quiver dance and storm drain boost, which would be fairly difficult to do with her mediocre bulk. It's also worth mentioning that her speed of 91 means that she'll require two boosts to avoid being outsped by the majority of scarfers in the tier.

Also, she'd face stiff competition from Gorebyss, who hits much harder after only one turn of setup, and can (and does) use exactly the same set.

Ultimately, while Quiver Dance Lumineon could have the potential to cause some damage, its Sp. Atk is just too low, and a speed stat just a few points below 95 lets it down. Poor physical bulk doesn't help either, especially considering the predominantly physical nature of the metagame.

 

[Celever]

I've just thought of one that is a very general one, but what if you could no longer select hidden powers?

It would mean that all of the special scarfers would suddenly become much less valuable, especially the two rotoms, since they would only be able to use electric and ice/flying type attacks. Since electric/ice is walled by much less of the tier than electric/flying, I would think we would have rotom-S down in PU and rotom-F up to NU again, just because of this. Primeape and Jynx, if they are not already, will probably end up in the top 3, just because they will no longer have competition. Electric types also have pretty bad coverage in NU, so they will probably become much less viable. This of course means mantine will become more viable!

Discuss :)

 

[ryan]

Yeah, I don't disagree with any of your comments on that. I think the one redeeming factor of it would simply be Storm Drain. Right now, it can't really do much with Storm Drain, and there are better Water immune Pokemon out there (such as Cacturne and Seismitoad). So no, I don't think it would be a top-tier threat, but it would at least make Lumineon a Pokemon that wouldn't cause wins solely by laughing your opponent into a seizure!

 

[Infernis]

what if you could no longer select hidden powers?

Primeape and Jynx, if they are not already, will probably end up in the top 3, just because they will no longer have competition. Electric types also have pretty bad coverage in NU, so they will probably become much less viable. This of course means mantine will become more viable!

Discuss :)

Well, special sweepers would be worse. But physical attackers (and walls) would be fairly well left alone by such a change. Sawk still crushes walls. Golurk fears fewer Hidden Power Grass/Ice, but still performs his role very well. I have no idea why Primeape and Jynx would shoot up. Does anyone use Hidden Power against them to the point of exclusivity? I don't think I've ever had to rely on it to stop either of them. Now, HP Grass on Zebstrika to take out ground types, for example, is a pretty big deal.

 

[Celever]

For Jynx, it was because she has strong 4 move coverage without hidden power, and for primeape it was just because the scarfers like rotom would no longer give it competition as a scarfer itself.

 

[skylight]

I wanna post something I was interested in before.

What if Metang had Levitate?

The logistics behind this are pretty much that it's psychic and other psychic types can levitate if they really put their mind to it (like Bronzong). So why not Metang?? Its other abilities aren't really too relevant, except when coming into an Intimidate mon but it has Meteor Mash to boost its attack anyway, so it wouldn't be too much of an issue to replace it. Given that it's useful with Jynx around, would this mean that Charizard, and other Fire-types (as well as Sawk due to Mold Breaker) would rise even more in usage. Would Metang become the main SR lead, given that it can easily take hits from most of the other leads and hit back with good damage in return? Also, it would make Golem pretty much useless against it and with it being able to learn EQ itself, nothing really is too safe against it in terms of the common SR leads. Share yo thoughts.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Well, Metang would definitely rise in usage since it now only has one weakness. Add an Eviolite to that and you get a fearsome wall. Fire types will become more prominent, but they are worn down easily by Stealth Rock or Earthquake on the switch. Metang already has reliable defenses and Levitate will push that a step ahead since it can beat out other leads including Golem, Gigalith and possibly Scolipede as well since it can no longer be beaten with Earthquake. It will become THE Steel-type of NU.

That said, if Metang's usage rises, I foresee a rise in Mold Breaker Sawk, as well as Torkoal who can threaten Metang and spin at the same time.

 

[Punchshroom]

Speaking of Fire-types...(I made this post be4 btw)

What if Torkoal got Morning Sun?

If Rapidash and Arcanine get it, Torkoal getting it shouldn't be too far a stretch right?

This grants us the high survivability Rapid Spinner we've all been looking for. Reliable recovery allows Torkoal to not only outlast spinblockers (immunity to Will-o-Wisp helps!) while reducing his hazard weakness, but also stick around to tank threats such as Scolipede, Primeape, Swellow, Tauros...essentially any physical attacker without super effective STAB. Torkoal can also use his newfound tanking ability to check even more physical threats, such as Gurdurr, by removing their boosts with Clear Smog. Hell, if you really want, Torkoal could also find a new niche in being the*only*better Shell Smasher with recovery (f**k Magcargo >:( ), allowing him to possibly nab 2 boosts or giving him a second chance at tearing foes a new one.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

Torkoal Is already a fantastic Pokemon, and getting Morning Sun would really help it become the best Spinner in the tier.
Lets not forget Shell Smash with Recovery.

 

[Infernis]

For Jynx, it was because she has strong 4 move coverage without hidden power, and for primeape it was just because the scarfers like rotom would no longer give it competition as a scarfer itself.

I'm not sure I follow. Rotom-F has STAB BoltBeam that hits everything the tier except itself neutrally or better. Rotom-S usually doesn't even need HP Grass. You can technically use it to hit a ground type that you predict will switch in, but I usually find it better to do a double switch. Zebstrika likes HP Grass, but it's so weak that it really only finds use against Seismitoad and Golem. Electabuzz carries HP Ice to deal with dragons and ground types, but Cross Chop/Focus Blast can deal with the Rock/Ground types like Golem, or you can use a physical set with Ice Punch. Movesets would change, but I wouldn't expect the metagame to drastically shift.

Torkoal getting Morning Sun would be fantastic. I've found him to be quite useful as a bulky spinner, even with the rocks weakness. Being able to wall Gabite's Earthquake and Floatzel's Waterfall would be fantastic. Not only that, but Torkoal can then actually beat Alomomola that don't carry Toxic. (Using Yawn to put them to sleep, or Toxic of your own.)

 

[saucemonkey1]

I have a few "what-ifs" I'd like to ask, hopefully I don't put up too many for you all to handle!

First off, what if Stunfisk got Water Absorb?

I mean come on, it's a fish, it gets the move Surf, why should it be hit super effectively by something it lives in? I love using the derp fish, and if it had Water Absorb it would only have to worry about Grass and Ground type moves while healing itself on the switch to a Water move, which would be nice considering that Stunfisk has no recovery options bar Rest. What do you all think?

Another theorymon idea I had was what if Dodrio got Hi Jump Kick/Jump Kick?

Some of the Normal/Flying type birds get Fighting type moves that help them with coverage against Rocks and Steel types, such as Braviary with Superpower and Staraptor with Close Combat. Dodrio seems like the kind of bird that would be able to Jump Kick you in the face if it wanted to, and with its stats I think it would be able to use the move/moves to great effect. A no drawback (bar accuracy) fighting type move that would finally allow Dodrio to compete with the likes of Braviary. My main question is what do you all think would happen to Dodrio in the NU metagame with such a move? Would it outshine Braviary or simply just gain a nifty move that makes it just a little bit better?

Alright, so now that my main ones are out of the way I have a few small ones I'd just like to throw out there because they seemed interesting to me.

What if Kecleon was able to use Eviolite?
His 60/70/120 defenses aren't all that great, but with Eviolite it would be able to tank Special hits with ease, especially with Recover.

What if Swoobat got Tail Glow?
Never in a million years would Gamefreak release a Pokemon able to boost its Special Attack to +6 in a single turn, but bear with me here. What do you all think?

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

I have a few "what-ifs" I'd like to ask, hopefully I don't put up too many for you all to handle!

First off, what if Stunfisk got Water Absorb?

I mean come on, it's a fish, it gets the move Surf, why should it be hit super effectively by something it lives in? I love using the derp fish, and if it had Water Absorb it would only have to worry about Grass and Ground type moves while healing itself on the switch to a Water move, which would be nice considering that Stunfisk has no recovery options bar Rest. What do you all think?

Another theorymon idea I had was what if Dodrio got Hi Jump Kick/Jump Kick?

Some of the Normal/Flying type birds get Fighting type moves that help them with coverage against Rocks and Steel types, such as Braviary with Superpower and Staraptor with Close Combat. Dodrio seems like the kind of bird that would be able to Jump Kick you in the face if it wanted to, and with its stats I think it would be able to use the move/moves to great effect. A no drawback (bar accuracy) fighting type move that would finally allow Dodrio to compete with the likes of Braviary. My main question is what do you all think would happen to Dodrio in the NU metagame with such a move? Would it outshine Braviary or simply just gain a nifty move that makes it just a little bit better?

Alright, so now that my main ones are out of the way I have a few small ones I'd just like to throw out there because they seemed interesting to me.

What if Kecleon was able to use Eviolite?
His 60/70/120 defenses aren't all that great, but with Eviolite it would be able to tank Special hits with ease, especially with Recover.

What if Swoobat got Tail Glow?
Never in a million years would Gamefreak release a Pokemon able to boost its Special Attack to +6 in a single turn, but bear with me here. What do you all think?

Water Absorb Stunfisk would be Fantastic. Eliminating the common Water weakness would really help Stunfisk be a great Tank.

Tail Glow Swoobat gg all lol

Hi Jump Kick Didrio makes sense, and would really help it, as It's only niche is activating it's own Tangled Feet with Thrash.

As for Eviolite Kecleon, the problem is it's Double Edged Sword ability. Because of that, I have an idea.

What if Kecleon got Multiscale?
Chameleons have Scales, it's how they change color. Multicale would make Kecleon the premier Special wall in the tier, Tanking almost any Special hit and even Physical ones at full Health.

 

[skylight]

What if Swoobat got Tail Glow?
Never in a million years would Gamefreak release a Pokemon able to boost its Special Attack to +6 in a single turn, but bear with me here. What do you all think?

I think scarfed attackers would rise significantly - Primeape for example would be one that'd see more use with Swoobat around. Same for Jynx, and basically every other faster threat that is already common in the metagame would just increase even more. But the question here is more when will it get an opportunity to set up - given that Alomomola/Tangela/Weezing/Missy can do something detrimental to it. So maybe sub for the walls would appear often on it's sets while almost all Missy/Weezing will carry tbolt so they can't be set up on at least, but they won't appreciate an attack dished out at them. It'd be really strong but I think the metagame could work their way around it through speed basically. However I can't help but think RU might appreciate it more.

Also on another note, Zebraiken wants realistic suggestions and not things that'd outright make stuff broken (or EXTREMELY strong) so keep that in your mind for the future :3

 

[ADHLAS]

Another theorymon idea I had was what if Dodrio got Hi Jump Kick/Jump Kick?

Some of the Normal/Flying type birds get Fighting type moves that help them with coverage against Rocks and Steel types, such as Braviary with Superpower and Staraptor with Close Combat. Dodrio seems like the kind of bird that would be able to Jump Kick you in the face if it wanted to, and with its stats I think it would be able to use the move/moves to great effect. A no drawback (bar accuracy) fighting type move that would finally allow Dodrio to compete with the likes of Braviary. My main question is what do you all think would happen to Dodrio in the NU metagame with such a move? Would it outshine Braviary or simply just gain a nifty move that makes it just a little bit better?

Hm, this possibility would've made Dodrio simply outstanding in the previous metagame, where rock and steel types were the hugest hinderance to the flightless bird - I even tried a Work up/HP Fighting set at one point, just to see whether there was a chance that Dodrio could beat its counters. However, now, I don't see the addition of a fighting move as too great a help for it. Weezing, Missy, and Alomomola, the top physical walls in this meta, simply wouldn't care about Dodrio's new coverage option.

Yeah, the centering of this metagame on hard-hitting physical fighting types almost guarantees that there's a suitable counter for fighting moves... So in a metagame where Probopass, Bastiodon, and to a lesser extent Regirock are on the decline, I don't think Dodrio gaining either JK or HJK would help it significantly.

 

[Explorer]

What if Swoobat got Tail Glow? Sash + Tail Glow + Simple + 3 attacks would devastate pretty much anything. It could just spam Stored Power, and for Dark/Steel types, Hidden Power Fighting, with either Protect or Air Slash at the end. Pretty much anything that didn't outspeed it or have Sucker Punch/Ice Shard would become unusable. As a result the entire metagame would revolve around using and countering Swoobat, and we don't need another B2W2 OU these days.

What if Dodrio got Hi Jump Kick/Jump Kick? This would be a welcome coverage move to ensure Rock and Steel-types no longer wall it. As a result Dodrio would have much more offensive presence. Still, Braviary outclasses it in this regard, being able to use Brave Bird, Return, Superpower, and either Roost, U-Turn, Shadow Claw, Rock Slide, Bulk Up, or Toxic with a better Attack stat and HP. HOWEVER, there is one place where Braviary does not outclass Dodrio, and that is support. Despite Dodrio's relative frality, it does have access to AcuPass, the one way in the game to get evasion boosts. For instance, if you run Acupressure/Baton Pass/Hi Jump Kick/Brave Bird, Acupass has some amazing defensive and offensive opportunities.

Scenario 1: Acupressure gives +2 evasion and +2 defense. You then pass this to Mantine and Toxic stall half of the opponent's team.

Scenario 2: Acupressure gives +2 attack and +2 speed. You then pass this to Torterra and 6-0.

What if Stunfisk got Water Absorb?

This gives great flavor, first off. This would give Stunfisk a nice, reliable source of recovery while removing one of the weaknesses given by its typing. It would be easier to pair with Fire-types, as one of the common weaknesses is covered. In particular, Moltres + Stunfisk cores would be more viable, since Stunfisk now resists all of Moltres's weaknesses, and the opponents that Stunfisk has trouble with, such as Cradily and Torterra, are overpowered by Moltres, particularly if the SubRoost set is used.

 

[ryan]

Alright, someone posted Stunfisk. <3

Water Absorb Stunfisk would be REALLY cool. It would obviously make a lot of sense on it, so I don't think anyone is going to argue with you there. The only thing I wouldn't like about it is that one of my favorite qualities of Stunfisk is the fact that the opponent will probably not knock it out without something on their team being Paralyzed or Burned. This is due to Stunfisk's awesome options of Scald, Discharge, and Static. I would be disappointed that I could no longer switch Stunfisk into U-Turns and hope to Paralyze foes for trying to scout, but I could live without it as well.

As basically everyone else has already stated, Stunfisk doesn't have any reliable form of recovery. Water Absorb, of course, isn't the most reliable way for it to recover, but it's still something else for it to have at its disposal. One of the main drawbacks of Stunfisk is its weaknesses to common Ground, Water, and Grass-type moves. The issue with Water Absorb Stunfisk is that it is still weak to most Water-type Pokemons' coverage moves. The good thing, however, is that most of the Pokemon that run these coverage moves (outside of Ludicolo, who would still be a major pain, and Lapras, who isn't too common), do not get STAB on them. This is great for Stunfisk because of its stellar special bulk. It's not likely that you are going to take it out with a Hidden Power Grass or an Ice Beam when it's at full health.

Do I think that Water Absorb Stunfisk would be the second coming of jesus? lolno
Do I think it would justify Stunfisk's spot on a team a lot more than it does now? Absolutely.

I feel like it would play a lot like specially defensive Seismitoad. The main difference between the two would be the Ground-type weakness, which, honestly, is a pretty good reason to pick Seismitoad. Few lead Stealth Rock setters are not Ground-types (uh... Miltank and Metang I think are two of the only ones?). And unlike Golem, Gigalith, and Metang, Stunfisk doesn't really have the power of the former two or the bulk of the latter.

Anyways, you should use Stunfisk even w/o Water Absorb. But if it did have Water Absorb, you would have no excuses. >:|

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I think I'd run a Swoobat set of Substitute/Tail Glow/Stored Power/Heat Wave with a Salac berry to help its issue with revenge killers.

GG

 

[watashi]

what if golem learned rapid spin?

this isn't too ridiculous because it was able to get rapid spin through an event in generation two. golem can find a lot of chances to spin due to its nice resistances, but is pretty much stopped cold by misdreavus. however, no other spin-blocker likes to switch into it. golem's usage will probably skyrocket since it will become by far the most reliable spinner in the tier and can still set up stealth rock efficiently. however, it's hard to fit in those two moves, earthquake, rock blast, sucker punch, and explosion in the same set so players will have to mix and match to find the set that benefits their team the most.

thoughts on this?

 

[LivingRhino]

What if Golem learned rapid spin?

I like this thought. It would be more reliable than Wartortle (ugh) and it will get stealth rocks up at the same time as you already said. I'm just afraid it will die pretty quickly, as golems do not tend to live very long. You'll be able to spin once or twice maybe, while Wartortle will stick around forever.

As you said, sets wouldn't fit anymore, so they would vary alot more. I'd actually use a custap golem with explosion - SR - Rapid Spin - EQ probably. I think this might be the most reliable set if you need the hazards up and away. My thought: I'd still be using the normal sets from now, with the occasional spinning Golem, as I think it's on the same level as some of the other spinners. it would be a nice addition though.

 

[ryan]

I agree that it would be difficult to decide what set to run for it due to its already great options. I think Explosion will typically be chucked aside in lieu of its other options due to players wanting to keep their spinners around for a while in a game. Normally I would say you can toss aside Sucker Punch as well, but it's such a great move in general. Toss Rapid Spin into the mix, and you've got a move that can hit spinblockers for super-effective damage. While the most common spinblocker (Misdreavus) will most likely be trying to status you and not attack you, other common spinblockers (such as Golurk and Haunter), are much more likely to attack, wanting to beat your spinner before you can get of a spin.

On the other hand, Rock Blast is still such an effective move on Golem. Being able to beat Ninjask with little to no effort is always welcome when I am teambuilding, so it's something I wouldn't be quick to toss aside. In addition to this, any Haunters wanting to Substitute against you expecting a Sucker Punch will be in for a nasty surprise.

I think in the end the move of choice will be entirely situational, and I don't think any one set would reign supreme above another. What I do know is that Rapid Spin Golem would be awesome. I would still probably use the same set I am using now (SR/Sucker/EQ/RB), but I could see it becoming incredibly common. All things considered, most ladder players who play with something 4x weak to Rocks (such as Articuno or Charizard), always want to add a spinner to their team, whether it is necessary to do so or not. Having a spinner with solid offensive presence, a resistance to Rocks, and a cool design would all appeal to your average PS ladderer.

While I don't think that Rapid Spin Golem would be God's gift to NU, I do think that it would increase the viability of the Pokemon. It would easily become the best Spinner in the tier, and whether spinners are common or not, this would still be incredibly beneficial for the rock monster.

Solid topic imo FLCL.

Edit: if you want a tl;dr version, read Rhino's post.