this thread was about rape; it's over now

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I don't think it's quite that simple Jabba; no drunk driver gets behind the wheel intending to kill somebody. Rapists, on the other hand, generally carry out the act fully aware of the physical and mental trauma they stand to inflict.

One is negligent whereas the other is outright malicious - which is 'worse' is a minefield that I'd rather not delve into but I think dispelling the idea that rape is a more heinous act as 'ridiculous' is a bit short-sighted.

the pic got a laugh out of me though, heh

Ignoring the terrible post proceeding yours, yes I can see how rape is worse in regards to intent and motive and if that's what we want to focus on I'll agree with you 100%. Morally, rape is much worse than drunk driving (even if the drunk driving results in death) to the point where they're not even comparable. But I'm looking at this from a results standpoint. And from a results standpoint they're not really comparable in the other direction. But yeah I think the conversation of which is worse really goes nowhere. And really, rape is definitely one of the worst crimes a human can commit, so there's really no need to try and compare it to other heinous crimes in the first place. So let's get the discussion back on track (which was?)

 

[Saria]

I don't think it's quite that simple Jabba; no drunk driver gets behind the wheel intending to kill somebody. Rapists, on the other hand, generally carry out the act fully aware of the physical and mental trauma they stand to inflict.

One is negligent whereas the other is outright malicious - which is 'worse' is a minefield that I'd rather not delve into but I think dispelling the idea that rape is a more heinous act as 'ridiculous' is a bit short-sighted.

the pic got a laugh out of me though, heh

What if the rapist was drunk and didn't intend any physical harm and mental trauma? Drinking doesn't only affect your driving skills, it also affects your judgement.

Both killing and raping can be negligent and malicious, the big difference is that people can get over being raped (There are people who have done that, is not by any means easy but it is possible), regardless if it was intentional or not, and live a "normal" life.

Not trying to defend rape or anything like that, but your comparison was pretty dumb.

 

[Zacchaeus]

If A FORVM mods can make rape jokes, why can't Tosh?

Or is someone going to make a thread about that too

 

[Nastyjungle]

What if the rapist was drunk and didn't intend any physical harm and mental trauma? Drinking doesn't only affect your driving skills, it also affects your judgement.

Both killing and raping can be negligent and malicious, the big difference is that people can get over being raped (There are people who have done that, is not by any means easy but it is possible), regardless if it was intentional or not, and live a "normal" life.

Not trying to defend rape or anything like that, but your comparison was pretty dumb.

but when you rape somebody, you always intend to rape

a drunk driver does not go out on the road and think "hey, im going to kill somebody", it just happens on accident because they are too inebriated to drive


you can't accidentally rape somebody- whether your judgement was impaired or not, if you rape somebody you did it because you had the mindset that you were going to have sex with the person- there is no other possible outcome, whereas with drunk driving a possible outcome (and expected outcome) is arriving safely at your destination, not to kill

 

[Saria]

but when you rape somebody, you always intend to rape

a drunk driver does not go out on the road and think "hey, im going to kill somebody", it just happens on accident because they are too inebriated to drive

you can't accidentally rape somebody- whether your judgement was impaired or not, if you rape somebody you did it because you had the mindset that you were going to have sex with the person- there is no other possible outcome, whereas with drunk driving a possible outcome (and expected outcome) is arriving safely at your destination, not to kill

What if your judgement was so impaired that you believed that the other person wanted to have sex with you?

Is that rape? Yes
Was it intentional? No

Not all rapists go "hey, I'm going to rape somebody", some rapes just happen because of one person impaired judgement.

If you can get drunk to the point where you believe driving is a good idea and you end killing someone because of your negligence, it is possible to get drunk to the point where you believe another person wants to have sex with you, even if that isn't true.

 

[Glen]

What if your judgement was so impaired that you believed that the other person wanted to have sex with you?

Is that rape? Yes
Was it intentional? No

Not all rapists go "hey, I'm going to rape somebody", some rapes just happen because of one person impaired judgement.

yeah, this. a lot of times rape is unintentional, which is even worse when you think about it. it's such a nonissue to most guys that they can just compartmentalize and think 'im not a rapist, im a nice guy, shes just kinda drunk'.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

i really don't like it when people (especially non-women) tell women not to take risks like going out late, getting overly drunk, and so on. it breeds a culture of fear: "letting the terrorists win", as it were. rapists are almost universally male supremacists -- instilling fear into women is exactly what they want. so, when somebody argues women should use "common sense", what they are really saying is that they should surrender to their fear and live a subdued life. they are telling women to admit their inferiority in the face of our patriarchical society.

that position is completely understandable, but it's also pathetic and weak. i compare it to an owner telling a slave, "don't try to escape, the police will kill you, that's common sense!"

when women spend late nights at a bar, they are not "taking stupid risks". when they wear modern fashion, they are not "asking to be raped". they are enjoying the liberty that everyone else takes for granted. i have far more respect for these bold women than i do for the ones who listen to their mothers' advice and stay home out of pure terror.

i'm going to go back to talking about daniel tosh for a bit.

placed in that woman's position, there's no way to not make a statement about the performor's act, except by sitting through it quietly (which should not be expected of anyone). you can either interrupt or walk out, which both say "this is not enjoyable at all". i'm also somewhat glad that she decided to make a fuss, as daniel tosh deserved it and it brings this issue back to the media's attention again.

that said, this petition is dumb.

you can not have a show removed from the air just by writing letters. the show won't go off the air until it stops making money for the network. to get it pulled, one of two things has to happen:

0. people stop watching the show.
1. advertisers don't place their commercials during the show's timeslot.

since i don't know anybody who will admit to watching the show, the former should be fairly easy to arrange. the latter proved a highly successful strategy against glenn beck's program, and i believe it could work here. instead of writing to the network, they should be writing to the advertisers, convincing them that tosh uses the show to air hateful and derogatory comments about women.

do i think he's particularly offensive? nah; when it comes to rape jokes, he seems pretty average. and by that, i mean the jokes aren't funny or clever, and he shouldn't have a show.

good posts by jumpluff, nj, ivysaur, the usual suspects, no surprises

 

[Zacchaeus]

i have far more respect for these bold women than i do for the ones who listen to their mothers' advice and stay home out of pure terror.

What you're saying is coming off to me like "If you want to walk down the streets of Detroit late at night with your nice suit and watch, go ahead because it makes you bold." If there are those men who have ill intentions for the women who stay out too late or drink too much, it is only reasonable to take some amount of precautions against them. Staying with a friend would be a logical example. So is that "letting the terrorists win" or is it just defending yourself from bad circumstance?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

What you're saying is coming off to me like "If you want to walk down the streets of Detroit late at night with your nice suit and watch, go ahead because it makes you bold." If there are those men who have ill intentions for the women who stay out too late or drink too much, it is only reasonable to take some amount of precautions against them. Staying with a friend would be a logical example. So is that "letting the terrorists win" or is it just defending yourself from bad circumstance?

What I believe was Umbreon's (and many others') point is that telling a woman to "dress appropriately" isn't telling her to be cautious, but to instill fear into her and breed the culture of silence/protection we have since ever. Just look at your post, for instance. I can see the logic behind it. Really. But can't you see that saying "women should take some precautions to protect their vagina in Detroit" can easily be reversed later to "well she didn't take enough precautions and now she got raped in Detroit"?

That and, of course, the fact that "proper clothing" doesn't really mean shit regarding rape. I can perfectly see the girl in Solace's signature being assaulted and someone trying to put the blame (even if subtly) in her clothing. Even if she wasn't even "taking risks" going alone at night but instead, was raped/groped/molested at day, walking down the street. What did all those years of telling the girl to be cautious do to protect her? Shouldn't be the rapist the one who should have been taught differently, that women aren't mere sexual objects?

 

[Nastyjungle]

Shouldn't be the rapist the one who should have been taught differently, that women aren't mere sexual objects?

i cannot emphasize this enough

telling a woman to release simple freedoms such as going where she wants when she wants and dressing how she wants (you know... freedoms that everybody else has) we need to emphasize that rape is not a good thing to be doing

i hear people say that the "rape culture" is just a bunch of made up bullshit, but look at this sort of thing, these are the sorts of things people are referring to when they say rape culture
a culture that, instead of focusing energy on stopping the problem (the rapists) tries to teach the victims to accept and do their best to avoid the problem

teaching women to be frightened and cautious, teaching them to live their lives being scared of the things somebody might do to them, can't you see that's a little fucked up?

 

[kd24]

teach them safety. people who rape won't be stopped by a lecture on why raping is wrong. i dont think anyone suggests telling women not to go to clubs or to live in constant fear

but we can teach them safety tips such as:

but dont go out late at night at midnight and just hang around a street you know is deserted at that time of day

dont tease men who you feel are being aggressive towards you if you have no intentions with them

etc etc. preventing rape is a lot easier than people think but for some reason its countered by "supporting rape culture".

anyone who thinks rape is worse than dying is dumb lol

also i have a good rape joke if anyone wants to hear it

 

[cim]

my judgement is so impaired i think responding to this post is a good idea

What if your judgement was so impaired that you believed that the other person wanted to have sex with you?

if you sincerely believe this happens then you have such a skewed view of cognition, sexuality, and reality that i honestly think you shouldn't reproduce. Removed of your inhibitions, would you just start autonomously raping everything in sight? I seriously fucking hope not. You should probably get help if you are a hair trigger away from auto-rape.

Driving drunk and raping someone are not the same fucking thing. I don't even see how they are comparable. Driving drunk doesn't involve another human being nor does it require the forethought and intricacy of "seducing" an impaired woman into not putting up a fight against your aggressiveness. Driving drunk (while not "understandable") is at least plausible. someone thinks they are less drunk than they are and gambles with a motor vehicle. How plausible is being drunk and deciding suddenly you are entitled to sex and forcing yourself on someone?

you can't accidentally rape someone you shitwad

anyone who thinks rape is worse than dying is dumb lol

do you even have the faintest idea what kind of trauma something as horrifying as sexual assault can put on a human being? can you imagine the most pleasurable and fulfilling of human experiences being obliterated for you forever by one sick motherfucker tearing it away?

 

[elcheeso]

Since my previous post seemed to be misinterpreted (are people suggesting that by too drunk to drive I meant the legal BAC?), I'll just clear it up. I was referring to someone struggling to walk, closer to what NJ said than anything, someone who is clearly well over the threshold between "still able to rationalise" and "constantly making fucking stupid decisions no one with half a brain would make while sober". Apparently some people call those stupid decisions (like getting the word "cockmongler" tattooed across your arse) "liberating" and ~setting your inhibitions free~ as if getting ridiculously drunk is a good thing.

Basically, I say avoid having sex with really drunk people at all. Try and avoid those situations where you're ridiculously drunk and going to have sex with another person who is ridiculously drunk. If the only way you can get laid is by having sex with drunk women, learn how to stop being a fucking idiot around sober women or go without.

Actually I had a question for those of you who think that consent is totally fine and meaningful and you need to take responsibility for your actions regardless of how impaired your judgement is. If you think that, that a simple yes is good enough to mean all dicks welcome when confronted by a man or woman who is slurring their speech, wobbling around like a moron and very likely to not remember much, if anything the next morning... what do you think about the age of consent? Why would you think (I'm hoping you think this) that having sex with kids is wrong? Their ability to rationalise sex should be irrelevant, right? So as long as they say yes, all dicks are welcome?

@kd24: Obviously women don't think rape is bad, so they go out of their way to encourage it and we need to teach them not to tease men like stupid sluts, we can't teach men to not rape because, what, men are animals who can't control their sexual urges?

 

[kd24]

@kd24: Obviously women don't think rape is bad, so they go out of their way to encourage it and we need to teach them not to tease men like stupid sluts, we can't teach men to not rape because, what, men are animals who can't control their sexual urges?

dunno how anyone with a brain could try and make it seem like i meant this but i'll humor you and tell you that teaching men not to rape is pointless. every man and woman know its wrong to rape. its taught anyway through tv, parents, schools, religion, etc. rape is done by men who want control or is done out of anger and frustration. hell sexual urge isnt even the reason for a lot of rape, its the control factor. and these people are going to rape if the situation comes up. by helping women know what situations can escalate into rape (such as teasing or flirting with somebody who you feel is being too aggressive with you even if you dont plan on actually doing anything with them) we can help women avoid getting raped.

i dunno when i called women stupid sluts or that men are animals who rape at the first sign...

can you imagine the most pleasurable and fulfilling of human experiences being obliterated for you forever by one sick motherfucker tearing it away?

you mean life?

 

[Nastyjungle]

teach them safety. people who rape won't be stopped by a lecture on why raping is wrong. i dont think anyone suggests telling women not to go to clubs or to live in constant fear

but we can teach them safety tips such as:

but dont go out late at night at midnight and just hang around a street you know is deserted at that time of day

dont tease men who you feel are being aggressive towards you if you have no intentions with them

etc etc. preventing rape is a lot easier than people think but for some reason its countered by "supporting rape culture".

anyone who thinks rape is worse than dying is dumb lol

also i have a good rape joke if anyone wants to hear it

oh look another person who let the point just sail over their head

i'm pretty sure nobody was insinuating that you can give a simple lecture to a rapist and stop them from being a rapist
people are saying that you need to change the foundation of the way we raise people for change to happen
1/20th of the population does not murder somebody
1/20th of the population does not burn down somebodies house
1/20th of the population do not rob banks

i would like to believe that 1/20th of the male population committing rape is not something hard wired into the Y chromosome, and rather a fundamental flaw in the teachings of our society, a flaw that somehow tells some males that it is ok to rape somebody
its just further supported by the fact that rape, an act of domination, is incredibly prominent in the gender which is considered dominant by society, where on the other hand, female rapists exist but are almost unheard of

and actually, you are wrong when you say women are not taught to live in a state of fear
because we are, i grew up being taught that i was never safe if i was outside of the house and that i had to constantly be on my guard
that is not an exaggeration, i am pretty sure any other female smogon member can back me up on this

and again, what if i want to go take a walk a night? what if i want to go someplace at midnight?
fuck anybody who says that i should just accept that its better for me not to exercise those freedoms, rather than to agree that we need to change the way society views rape

having half the population not feel secure past 8 really doesn't seem kind of messed up to you? it really doesnt?
i will just have to chalk that up to you having those privileges and taking them for granted


im not even going to comment on your 'teasing' bit because i honestly dont have the energy to address something so stupid

 

[cim]

every man and woman know its wrong to rape.

This actually isn't true at all. People predisposed to rape (roughly 6% of college students will admit to rape, as long as you don't actually use the word "rape") actually tend to think most / all men are actually rapists but just cover it up super well.

by helping women know what situations can escalate into rape (such as teasing or flirting with somebody who you feel is being too aggressive with you even if you dont plan on actually doing anything with them) we can help women avoid getting raped.

the longer i'm around the less I think this happens and the more i think it's just a scapegoat by rapists

thanks dm / nastyjungle / everyone fighting the good fight for being so much better at this than me in my current mental state

 

[Ravix]

also i have a good rape joke if anyone wants to hear it

Lets hear it!

I want to live in a world where my kids don't have to fear the candy van.

kd24, making sense and getting blasted.

 

[jumpluff]

I want to live in a world where my kids don't have to fear the candy van.

So do all the people with whom you've expressed disagreement in this thread.

 

[Ordinando]

dunno how anyone with a brain could try and make it seem like i meant this but i'll humor you and tell you that teaching men not to rape is pointless. every man and woman know its wrong to rape. its taught anyway through tv, parents, schools, religion, etc.

it sure as fuck isn't pointless. for one, as this thread has shown/proven, there is a too-high percentage of people that don't actually know what rape is! it's like if you told people not to drunk drive except you didn't tell them what the BAC limit is.
second, like i said before, there are campaigns in place that focus on stopping your acquaintances from being rapists, not on how to avoid them. this is the right direction.
third, we're taught a lot of crimes are wrong but at the same time given circumstances where they're okay. you shouldn't assault someone (unless they insulted your family). you shouldn't steal (unless you're in dire straights). you shouldn't rape someone (unless they were asking for it). we're not doing enough to stop rape. ending these situations where it's something that happens to people in the punchline of a joke is one way to stop normalizing rape.

 

[some hero]

and again, what if i want to go take a walk a night? what if i want to go someplace at midnight?
fuck anybody who says that i should just accept that its better for me not to exercise those freedoms, rather than to agree that we need to change the way society views rape

Have you heard of a little tool called a gun? I guess it depends where you want to go for a walk...

 

[RitterCat]

Have you heard of a little tool called a gun? I guess it depends where you want to go for a walk...

So we shouldnt bother trying to change societal views of rape but instead all women travelling at night should carry a gun? What the fuck man, you want to let the rapists go at them just so the women will shoot the guy (if they even could shoot someone), leading to possible trauma for the women, and a preventable loss of life?

Right

 

[Ordinando]

how were you raped? did you even carry your gun? don't have one???? it's like you were begging to be raped.



"The freedom to be afraid is all you want." - Gil Scott-Heron (on guns)

 

[Nastyjungle]

Have you heard of a little tool called a gun? I guess it depends where you want to go for a walk...

it's like you didn't even read my post

 

[Hipmonlee]

I think we are going in circles here, so I'm gonna close this up. The earlier points have gotten lost.

But I think the people saying "women need to be careful" should read some of the earlier posts. In particular this one by jumpluff.

 

[DM]

Uh, Rape isn't a specific intent crime either?

Oops sorry, I didn't intend to rape you.

Actually, no, it isn't. Rape is a general intent crime, which is defined as a crime that requires merely the intent to do the proscribed act. That means you can be negligent or recklessness, you don't necessarily have to be intentional or knowing. Motive is immaterial. General intent crimes: rape, battery (unlawful touching of another's body/immediate person), kidnapping, false imprisonment. I know it might not make sense, it took me a while to grasp the concept (I still get practice questions on this topic wrong). Examples of specific intent crimes: larceny (theft), solicitation (asking someone to commit a crime), assault (putting someone in fear of an imminent battery), robbery (larceny from a person with force/threat of force), etc.

Sorry for getting all lawyerly, I'm studying for the bar right now and this definitely helps me review. The thread may be closed, but I hope someone learned something from this post :jump: