Metagame Tier Shift

LordHelix said:
Heres examples of non eviolite mons who can wall meloetta, will add more if i find later (other than sableye/corsola)
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Corsola cannot wall Meloetta, as it carries Focus Blast.

Here are some Meloetta checks, based on this set:

Meloetta @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Focus Blast
- U-turn / Shadow Ball

Walls:
Spiritomb: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Spiritomb: 107-127 (27.8 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Gallade: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gallade: 152-180 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Meloetta itself: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meloetta: 171-202 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Slowking: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 172-204 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Jellicent: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 178-210 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beheeyem: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Beheeyem: 234-276 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Regice (lol): 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Regice: 170-200 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Kecleon: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Outspeeders (these may or may not be viable, I'm just theorymonning at the moment):
252 Atk Black Glasses Liepard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 362-428 (106.1 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 433-511 (126.9 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 318-374 (93.2 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 291-346 (85.3 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 336-396 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 494-585 (144.8 - 171.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Archeops Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 387-456 (113.4 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 289-343 (84.7 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 419-494 (122.8 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 336-396 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 368-434 (107.9 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 552-650 (161.8 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Then there are the Choice Scarf users with base Speed of 65 (meaning 25 for PU, 35 for NU, 45 for RU, 55 for UU) which include just about anything that has super-effective attacks against Meloetta so I won't include those.
 
Anaconja said:
Corsola cannot wall Meloetta, as it carries Focus Blast.

Here are some Meloetta checks, based on this set:

Meloetta @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Focus Blast
- U-turn / Shadow Ball

Walls:
Spiritomb: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Spiritomb: 107-127 (27.8 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Gallade: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gallade: 152-180 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Meloetta itself: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meloetta: 171-202 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Slowking: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 172-204 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Jellicent: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 178-210 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Beheeyem: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Beheeyem: 234-276 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Regice (lol): 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Regice: 170-200 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Kecleon: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Outspeeders (these may or may not be viable, I'm just theorymonning at the moment):
252 Atk Black Glasses Liepard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 362-428 (106.1 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 433-511 (126.9 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 318-374 (93.2 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 291-346 (85.3 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 336-396 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 494-585 (144.8 - 171.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Archeops Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 387-456 (113.4 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 289-343 (84.7 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 419-494 (122.8 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 336-396 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 368-434 (107.9 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 552-650 (161.8 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Then there are the Choice Scarf users with base Speed of 65 (meaning 25 for PU, 35 for NU, 45 for RU, 55 for UU) which include just about anything that has super-effective attacks against Meloetta so I won't include those.
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The problem is not one of those walls beats Meloetta. Meloetta is bulky and has solid typing, beating each of the mons that you listed 1on1.
 
Eviolite does seem very strong, but I'd like to try play around it a bit before we all call for a suspect/quick ban. It seems everyone is going crazy over all the new walls available, but most appear to have overlooked the fact that there are dozens of new breakers here too. I mean sure people have mentioned things like Meloetta and Araquanid, but that's hardly scraping the surface.

Think, if any lower tier mon that uses Eviolite can be a strong wall here, what's stopping all the lower tier mons with Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Powerful Z-Moves and great STAB combinations from being strong wall breakers?

Here's just one example of something that I think could be a pretty darn threatening Stall Breaker.

dhelmise.gif

Dhelmise @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Power Whip
- Phantom Force
- Anchor Shot

- 90/151/120/106/110/60
- Effectively 3 STABs due to Steelworker.
- 120 bp grass STAB nukes the plethora of bulky Waters.
- Ghostium Z allows Phantom Force to be used without delay at 175 bp, and pseudo removes Knock Off weakness.
- Sets up on any Tangela lacking Toxic.
- Immune to trapping though not threatened by Diglet or Trapinch regardless.
- Power Whip and Anchor Shot demolish Unaware users Quagsire and Clefable.
- Immune to Powder moves and Leech Seed.
- Blocks Rapid Spin to maintain Hazard pressure.

Sounds like a pretty solid Stall Breaker to me. Only really struggles with breaking Vullaby, though is admittedly vulnerable to being out sped by Foul Play and Will-O-Wisp users. Also it has pretty unique typing and utility alongside usable mixed bulk, as well as strong immediate power between Power Whip and Never-Ending Nightmare, so it isn't dead weight against other play styles.

Here are some calcs to show the power level.
+2 252+ Atk Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 198-234 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Steelworker Dhelmise Anchor Shot vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Togetic: 354-417 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Dhelmise Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 337-397 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Dhelmise Phantom Force vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Amoonguss: 412-486 (91.3 - 107.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And that's just one example of a potentially strong Stall Breaker, I'm sure there are plenty more if people actually bother to look for them. Lure sets especially sound like they could be particularly effective, with stray Knock Offs removing important Eviolites, and an extra 30 or 40 SpA opens opportunities for scary new mixed attacking lures.

Can we at least try to compare the new walls of this tier to its own new wall breakers, instead of OU and Uber breakers, before we all hop aboard the Ban-wagon?
 
It seems like lots of walls are weak to ice, so...
base stats: 105/90/75/155/135/135
Jynx (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Dry Skin/Oblivious
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute

Let's see how it does against the walls in isa's post with their max possible bulk vs the respective moves.

+2 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gligar: 712-844 (190.3 - 225.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That was obvious, 4x weaknesses hurt

+2 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Togetic officially loses.

+2 252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Golbat: 396-468 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 428-506 (103.3 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So Golbat has to choose which move OHKOs it, and the other move will 2HKO it anyway.

+2 252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Amoonguss: 714-842 (157.9 - 186.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 518-612 (114.6 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Amoonguss dies to ice beam no matter what it tries to do.

Also let's calc Tangela.
+2 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 372-440 (89.8 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So if you have SR up Tangela dies no matter what, and that's only when Jynx is at +2. at +3 nothing here can survive at all.

Anything else worth mentioning wall-wise? Could run Energy Ball over Psyshock for waters
 
LordHelix said:
This goes against the banning philosphy, i mean we dont keep broken things to check broken things, if eviolite were to be banned and meloetta/ramp turned out to be broken we ban meloetta and ramp too

Nothing will be able to beat stall unless u dedicate a few of your slots to beat stall, and then its not even guaranteed since you can get trapped by trapinch or diglett

new players will get sick of this metagame quick if all they see is fat togetics and tangelas walling their entire team, even taunt stall breakers cant do crap to their magic bouncers (that + every mon is hitting much harder here, even walls like tangela/vaporeon have like 140 spa)

I mean just look at the calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 142-168 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Thats coming off a 158 spa and specs, and it does like 34? Wow

0 Atk Groudon-Primal Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Eviolite Tangela in Harsh Sunshine: 168-200 (40.5 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Stab fire punch in the sun from a defensive primal-groudon.... wow

Heres example of non eviolite mon who can wall meloetta, will add more if i find later (like maybe sableye, corsola, spiritomb, doublade)

252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 204 HP / 56 SpD Vaporeon: 201-237 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Thats hitting a mon with 160 hp and 125 spdef, yea meloetta is gonna be hard to wall without a resist (not impossible, just very hard) plus its gonna be difficult to revenge since it has great bulk too

Eviolite is centralizing in the sense that you absolutely need super powerful breakers just to get through the mons.

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 115-136 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO

Thats coming off a base 125 attack with band, is this the physical version of chansey?. And you just get trapped by diglett too so whats the point


Even very powerful stallbreakers need many boosts to get past them

+2 252+ SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Eviolite Togetic: 160-189 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I mean what is this????? Thats coming off a modest base 170 spa at +2, and togetic still eats three?

When a mon can wall mega rayquaza thats when u know its pretty busted

252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 156-185 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Thats only calcs for togetic too, thats not even mentioning the support it gets from its fellow pu eviolite teammates, please BAN eviolite

Edit: fixed some of the togetic calcs, and corrected a few mistakes
Click to expand...

No offense, isn't this argument literally that walls need to be answered with breakers, and so walls are broken?
Looking at your own calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 115-136 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO
like calcing literally one of the BEST walls in this tier with a "wallbreaker" I've never seen used in Tier Shift once.
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Eviolite Tangela in Harsh Sunshine: 168-200 (40.5 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This mon literally isn't in the tier. I mean, ???. I get the point, walls in this tier are REALLY bulky. This is the power creep of an OM.
But, as you state in your own post, wallbreakers in this really are also really powerful.
That's nothing being 'broken' in Tier Shift, that's Tier Shift mons being broken in OU.
 
Isa Simple said:
Think, if any lower tier mon that uses Eviolite can be a strong wall here, what's stopping all the lower tier mons with Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Powerful Z-Moves and great STAB combinations from being strong wall breakers?

Can we at least try to compare the new walls of this tier to its own new wall breakers, instead of OU and Uber breakers, before we all hop aboard the Ban-wagon?
Click to expand...

To be honest i kinda agree with you, we havent explored yet enough to say if its broken that early or not, tho im definitely feeling like its too much

But there is definitely a big difference between offensive mons and defensive mons in this tier, an eviolite mon like tangela come in with 351/346/196 base defenses + eviolite boost, basically having 351/591/294 which are equivalent to having 105/255+/130 automatically

Tell me which offensive mon has 255+ offenses in this tier?

Whammerist said:
No offense, isn't this argument literally that walls need to be answered with breakers, and so walls are broken?
Looking at your own calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 115-136 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO
like calcing literally one of the BEST walls in this tier with a "wallbreaker" I've never seen used in Tier Shift once.
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Eviolite Tangela in Harsh Sunshine: 168-200 (40.5 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This mon literally isn't in the tier. I mean, ???. I get the point, walls in this tier are REALLY bulky. This is the power creep of an OM.
But, as you state in your own post, wallbreakers in this really are also really powerful.
That's nothing being 'broken' in Tier Shift, that's Tier Shift mons being broken in OU.
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I disagree with you, these eviolite mons are too good even for tier shift meta (see calcs at bottom)
You are saying this like the power level of offensive mons are easily 180+ base offense, no there is only about 4-5 mons only with offenses close to 180, even the best ones are around 150-160ish. While in comparison there is tons of defensive mons with eviolite have a psuedo 180 defenses

the entei example was just to show how powerful togetic is, its to show for example how anything around entei's power level (which is not that bad, found on balance) cant even touch a common wall. I dont have to restrict my team to just the most powerful of breakers to beat togetic

And how is the groudon calc irrelevant? If anything its just an example to show how bulky tangela is
I mean i can show u more of a realistic calc from a mon in this tier
Here is a fire type with 153 base attack + 120 base power stab + reckless

252 Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 186-222 (55.6 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Barely a guaranteed 2hko
Its not like a tangela is staying in on a emboar anyways, it has other teammates to support it and cover its weaknesses

Dont also forget the rayquaza mega calc, i mean 180 offenses + life orb + 120 stab moves is still amazing even when compared to powerful breakers (like emboar, meloetta, archeops) here, and nevertheless it still cant break togetic

I mean theoratically speaking, the defensive power level is definitely much more than the offensive power level

Defensive mons

Togetic: 105/125/145 + eviolite= 105/196/226

Tangela: 105/155/80 + eviolite= 105/255+/130

Vullaby: 110/115/105 + eviolite= 110/181/166

Offensive mons

Mons with the highest attack/spa
Atk:
Rampardos (205 atk)
Archeops (170 atk)

and for spa:
Vikavolt (175 spatk)
Hoopa-C (170 spatk)

Now lets do some calcs of the strongest unboosted attackers in the tier vs the bulkiest mons

252 Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 183-216 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO

Thats 205 attack band and 150 base power stab... wow, + its trapped by diglett

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 156-186 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

....

252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 324-384 (97 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Sounds good, until u realize this has 175 spatk and thats not really common

252 SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 166-196 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hoopa complete as ive shown before is walled, + its beaten by unaware

At least if eviolite is not being considered for a ban, ban/suspect eviolite on pu mons and below, or ban/suspect the main abusers: tangela and togetic
 
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LordHelix said:
To be honest i kinda agree with you, we havent explored yet enough to say if its broken that early or not, tho im definitely feeling like its too much

But there is definitely a big difference between offensive mons and defensive mons in this tier, an eviolite mon like tangela come in with 351/346/196 base defenses + eviolite boost, basically having 351/591/294 which are equivalent to having 105/255+/130 automatically

Tell me which offensive mon has 255+ offenses in this tier?



I disagree with you, these eviolite mons are too good even for tier shift meta (see calcs at bottom)
You are saying this like the power level of offensive mons are easily 180+ base offense, no there is only about 4-5 mons only with offenses close to 180, even the best ones are around 150-160ish. While in comparison there is tons of defensive mons with eviolite have a psuedo 180 defenses

the entei example was just to show how powerful togetic is, its to show for example how anything around entei's power level (which is not that bad, found on balance) cant even touch a common wall. I dont have to restrict my team to just the most powerful of breakers to beat togetic

And how is the groudon calc irrelevant? If anything its just an example to show how bulky tangela is
I mean i can show u more of a realistic calc from a mon in this tier
Here is a fire type with 153 base attack + 120 base power stab + reckless

252 Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 186-222 (55.6 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Barely a guaranteed 2hko
Its not like a tangela is staying in on a emboar anyways, it has other teammates to support it and cover its weaknesses

Dont also forget the rayquaza mega calc, i mean 180 offenses + life orb + 130 stab moves is still amazing even when compared to powerful breakers (like emboar, meloetta, archeops) here, and nevertheless it still cant break togetic

I mean theoratically speaking, the defensive power level is definitely much more than the offensive power level

Defensive mons

Togetic: 105/125/145 + eviolite= 105/196/226

Tangela: 105/155/80 + eviolite= 105/255+/130

Vullaby: 110/115/105 + eviolite= 110/181/166

Offensive mons

Mons with the highest attack/spa
Atk:
Rampardos (205 atk)
Archeops (170 atk)

and for spa:
Vikavolt (175 spatk)
Hoopa-C (170 spatk)

Now lets do some calcs of the strongest unboosted attackers in the tier vs the bulkiest mons

252 Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 183-216 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO

Thats 205 attack band and 150 base power stab... wow, + its trapped by diglett

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 156-186 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

....

252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 324-384 (97 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Sounds good, until u realize this has 175 spatk and thats not really common

252 SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 166-196 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hoopa complete as ive shown before is walled, + its beaten by unaware

At least if eviolite is not being considered for a ban, ban eviolite on pu mons and below, or ban the main abusers: tangela and togetic
Click to expand...
But why not try using a stat booster?
The Jynx I mentioned beats all these if you run Energy Ball over Psyshock, and there are probably a fair few other mons which can do this.
Also, Hoopa can technically run Skill Swap to beat Unaware :P
 
Yahooboo said:
But why not try using a stat booster?
The Jynx I mentioned beats all these if you run Energy Ball over Psyshock, and there are probably a fair few other mons which can do this.
Also, Hoopa can technically run Skill Swap to beat Unaware :P
Click to expand...

I liked both the jynx and dhelmise idea until i realized that it will get trapped by diglett (which will probably be on every serious stall)
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 168-198 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Diglett Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 158-186 (58.3 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Same goes for dhelmise which is beaten by sableye or vullaby (which are also both gonna be common)
0 Atk Vullaby/Sableye Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 326-386 (95 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Skill swap hoopa sounds heat tho lol

Although if it does get popular as a stall breaker, diglett can adapt by using pursuit and remove it
252 Atk Diglett Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hoopa: 172-204 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are not even niche options, diglett and vullaby are both very viable. Stall can easily adapt, while offense/balance struggles to keep up
 
LordHelix said:
I liked both the jynx and dhelmise idea until i realized that it will get trapped by diglett (which will probably be on every serious stall)
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 168-198 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Diglett Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 158-186 (58.3 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Same goes for dhelmise which is beaten by sableye or vullaby (which are also both gonna be common)
0 Atk Vullaby/Sableye Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 326-386 (95 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Skill swap hoopa sounds heat tho lol

Although if it does get popular as a stall breaker, diglett can adapt by using pursuit and remove it
252 Atk Diglett Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hoopa: 172-204 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are not even niche options, diglett and vullaby are both very viable. Stall can easily adapt, while offense/balance struggles to keep up
Click to expand...
shed shell bois
also let's point out Jynx speed ties with Diglett and is safe behind a sub
sd sneasel outspeeds diggy and resists sucker punch while having ice shard itself and being able to knock off eviolites, nasty
 
LordHelix said:
To be honest i kinda agree with you, we havent explored yet enough to say if its broken that early or not, tho im definitely feeling like its too much

But there is definitely a big difference between offensive mons and defensive mons in this tier, an eviolite mon like tangela come in with 351/346/196 base defenses + eviolite boost, basically having 351/591/294 which are equivalent to having 105/255+/130 automatically

Tell me which offensive mon has 255+ offenses in this tier?



I disagree with you, these eviolite mons are too good even for tier shift meta (see calcs at bottom)
You are saying this like the power level of offensive mons are easily 180+ base offense, no there is only about 4-5 mons only with offenses close to 180, even the best ones are around 150-160ish. While in comparison there is tons of defensive mons with eviolite have a psuedo 180 defenses

the entei example was just to show how powerful togetic is, its to show for example how anything around entei's power level (which is not that bad, found on balance) cant even touch a common wall. I dont have to restrict my team to just the most powerful of breakers to beat togetic

And how is the groudon calc irrelevant? If anything its just an example to show how bulky tangela is
I mean i can show u more of a realistic calc from a mon in this tier
Here is a fire type with 153 base attack + 120 base power stab + reckless

252 Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 186-222 (55.6 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Barely a guaranteed 2hko
Its not like a tangela is staying in on a emboar anyways, it has other teammates to support it and cover its weaknesses

Dont also forget the rayquaza mega calc, i mean 180 offenses + life orb + 120 stab moves is still amazing even when compared to powerful breakers (like emboar, meloetta, archeops) here, and nevertheless it still cant break togetic

I mean theoratically speaking, the defensive power level is definitely much more than the offensive power level

Defensive mons

Togetic: 105/125/145 + eviolite= 105/196/226

Tangela: 105/155/80 + eviolite= 105/255+/130

Vullaby: 110/115/105 + eviolite= 110/181/166

Offensive mons

Mons with the highest attack/spa
Atk:
Rampardos (205 atk)
Archeops (170 atk)

and for spa:
Vikavolt (175 spatk)
Hoopa-C (170 spatk)

Now lets do some calcs of the strongest unboosted attackers in the tier vs the bulkiest mons

252 Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 183-216 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO

Thats 205 attack band and 150 base power stab... wow, + its trapped by diglett

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 156-186 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

....

252+ SpA Vikavolt Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 324-384 (97 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Sounds good, until u realize this has 175 spatk and thats not really common

252 SpA Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 166-196 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hoopa complete as ive shown before is walled, + its beaten by unaware

At least if eviolite is not being considered for a ban, ban/suspect eviolite on pu mons and below, or ban/suspect the main abusers: tangela and togetic
Click to expand...
You keep emphasizing the new stats but seem to forget that stats are higher in this tier. Yes those would be ridiculous in standard, but they're not necessarily here. You should wait until we get a better sense of how the meta plays or at least provide replays with your posts if you want simmering something qb'd.

I personally think eviolite will be one of the things that needs to be banned; it gives ridiculous bulk to things like Tangela, but rushing things only gives us poorly thought out decisions.
 
Laxpras said:
The problem is not one of those walls beats Meloetta. Meloetta is bulky and has solid typing, beating each of the mons that you listed 1on1.
Click to expand...
Although I do agree that most of the walls are best 1v1, Spiritomb totally counters Meloetta with the Crocune-esque set that Abyssal Bot uses.

Yahooboo said:
It seems like lots of walls are weak to ice, so...
base stats: 105/90/75/155/135/135
Jynx (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Dry Skin/Oblivious
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute

Let's see how it does against the walls in isa's post with their max possible bulk vs the respective moves.

+2 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gligar: 712-844 (190.3 - 225.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That was obvious, 4x weaknesses hurt

+2 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Togetic officially loses.

+2 252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Golbat: 396-468 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 428-506 (103.3 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So Golbat has to choose which move OHKOs it, and the other move will 2HKO it anyway.

+2 252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Amoonguss: 714-842 (157.9 - 186.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 518-612 (114.6 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Amoonguss dies to ice beam no matter what it tries to do.

Also let's calc Tangela.
+2 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 372-440 (89.8 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So if you have SR up Tangela dies no matter what, and that's only when Jynx is at +2. at +3 nothing here can survive at all.

Anything else worth mentioning wall-wise? Could run Energy Ball over Psyshock for waters
Click to expand...

I think that you should run Lovely Kiss and/or Energy Ball somewhere. Lovely Kiss can disable useful walls or sweepers, while Energy Ball hits Quagsire hard.
 
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I have already used Dusclops in GG with buffed HP with great success in stall teams, but will it be viable in TS too?

Dusclops eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef
Calm Nature
- Will-o-Wips
- Haze
- Night Shade / Hex / other attacking move
- Rest

With its new 80 / 110 / 170 / 100 / 170 / 65 stats before applying eviolite boost it has the best mixed bulk possible, being only outclassed by tangela on the physical side. It can spread Will-o-Wisps, stop setup with haze and deal damage with either Night Shade for constant output or the combination of Will-O-Wisp and STAB 120 base Hex from 100 SpAtt. On top of that it is immune to trapping and stalls out the opponent's PP twice as fast as other walls thanks to pressure.
 
With regards to everyone's concerns about Eviolite and stall, I can say that stall is just as good as last gen (hint: the best playstyle overall, but not broken.) I want to point out that most OMs are overrun with very powerful offensive threats, rendering stall less viable. Banning Eviolite prematurely would not only be unprecedented, it would also be quite biased. I implore everyone to provide more compelling arguments that prove offense archetypes have no practical answers to stall. I know the OU tiering policy framework has nothing to do with OMs, but I'd like to reiterate what's written in the policy: "Providing justification is the onus of the side changing the status quo."

Basically, I'm not saying an unprecedented act would be bad, but you better darn well have good evidence to back up your claim, because Eviolite increases the amount of walls a threat is prone to. Too many offensive threats without blanket checking mons to stop them creates overcentralisation. This is exactly what happened with Landorus in OU. Everyone was incentivised (or even forced) to use Gliscor for its highly useful blanket checking properties, and, as a result, all Landorus needed was HP Ice to neutralise that threat. When there's not enough slots to, at the very least, combat all threats defensively, then that's a real problem. Still having issues with stall? Take advantage of the fact that almost every team uses Tangela, and that there are a ton of stellar Ice mons that are PU.

Jynx, for example, is quite underused for some reason. It's strong, has Lovely Kiss and counters Water-types such as Ludicolo and Clamperl. I can definitely see why Tangela might be a problem, but the regular tiers have been dealing with Blissey, Chansey, and the millions of bulky waters for years. Stall is quite often the most oppressed playstyle. Let it thrive, the way offense always has, and let's see what happens! The best strategies are often conceived in oppression. I'm sure the use of Pursuit trappers, hazards, boosting sweepers and offensive cores will make it more than viable. As a matter of fact, I've been caught off guard due to the influx of wallbreakers that demand a dedicated counter. Birds are particularly annoying!

With that said, I'd like to share a very odd set I've been using:


trapinch.gif

Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Superpower
- Rest
- Toxic

This thing is quite strong, sporting 140 base attack and STAB Earthquake. It also has 85 bulk across the board with Eviolite, so it's incomparable to Diglett. It can deal with the multitude of wallbreakers that run amok, namely ground weak mons like Rampardos; as such, Trapinch is quite the good stall mon. But what I've been REALLY enjoying is its ability to kill or poison the Stealth Rock setters that threaten your team's hazard control, whether it's something like Archeops, Vullaby, Golbat, Togetic, or even Avalugg—Trapinch will usually be able to kill them by simply just switching in and attacking. The spread might not be perfect, as more bulk would be helpful. We'll need to find the right benchmarks to optimise this thing.

EDIT: After further testing, I can say in good faith that the ant is broken LOL. It PP stalls / toxic stalls and kills anything that can't 3HKO it. Here's your new stallbreaker!
 
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Semako said:
I have already used Dusclops in GG with buffed HP with great success in stall teams, but will it be viable in TS too?

Dusclops eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef
Calm Nature
- Will-o-Wips
- Haze
- Night Shade / Hex / other attacking move
- Rest

With its new 80 / 110 / 170 / 100 / 170 / 65 stats before applying eviolite boost it has the best mixed bulk possible, being only outclassed by tangela on the physical side. It can spread Will-o-Wisps, stop setup with haze and deal damage with either Night Shade for constant output or the combination of Will-O-Wisp and STAB 120 base Hex from 100 SpAtt. On top of that it is immune to trapping and stalls out the opponent's PP twice as fast as other walls thanks to pressure.
Click to expand...
Dusclops' main failings still exist in the forms of Knock Off being everywhere and lack of truly reliable recovery (rest is better than nothing but can make you bait for setup). It's certainly an inconvenience but idk if it will truly be a top threat.
Adrian Marin said:
With regards to everyone's concerns about Eviolite and stall, I can say that stall is just as good as last gen (hint: the best playstyle overall, but not broken.) I want to point out that most OMs are overrun with very powerful offensive threats, rendering stall less viable. Banning Eviolite prematurely would not only be unprecedented, it would also be quite biased. I implore everyone to provide more compelling arguments that prove offense archetypes have no practical answers to stall. I know the OU tiering policy framework has nothing to do with OMs, but I'd like to reiterate what's written in the policy: "Providing justification is the onus of the side changing the status quo."

Basically, I'm not saying an unprecedented act would be bad, but you better darn well have good evidence to back up your claim, because Eviolite increases the amount of walls a threat is prone to. Too many offensive threats without blanket checking mons to stop them creates overcentralisation. This is exactly what happened with Landorus in OU. Everyone was incentivised (or even forced) to use Gliscor for its highly useful blanket checking properties, and, as a result, all Landorus needed was HP Ice to neutralise that threat. When there's not enough slots to, at the very least, combat all threats defensively, then that's a real problem. Still having issues with stall? Take advantage of the fact that almost every team uses Tangela, and that there are a ton of stellar Ice mons that are PU.

Jynx, for example, is quite underused for some reason. It's strong, has Lovely Kiss and counters Water-types such as Ludicolo and Clamperl. I can definitely see why Tangela might be a problem, but the regular tiers have been dealing with Blissey, Chansey, and the millions of bulky waters for years. Stall is quite often the most oppressed playstyle. Let it thrive, the way offense always has, and let's see what happens! The best strategies are often conceived in oppression. I'm sure the use of Pursuit trappers, hazards, boosting sweepers and offensive cores will make it more than viable. As a matter of fact, I've been caught off guard due to the influx of wallbreakers that demand a dedicated counter. Birds are particularly annoying!

With that said, I'd like to share a very odd set I've been using:


trapinch.gif

Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Superpower
- Rest
- Toxic

This thing is quite strong, sporting 140 base attack and STAB Earthquake. It also has 85 bulk across the board with Eviolite, so it's incomparable to Diglett. It can deal with the multitude of wallbreakers that run amok, namely ground weak mons like Rampardos; as such, Trapinch is quite the good stall mon. But what I've been REALLY enjoying is its ability to kill or poison the Stealth Rock setters that threaten your team's hazard control, whether it's something like Archeops, Vullaby, Golbat, Togetic, or even Avalugg—Trapinch will usually be able to kill them by simply just switching in and attacking. The spread might not be perfect, as more bulk would be helpful. We'll need to find the right benchmarks to optimise this thing.

EDIT: After further testing, I can say in good faith that the ant is broken LOL. It PP stalls / toxic stalls and kills anything that can't 3HKO it. Here's your new stallbreaker!
Click to expand...
With regards to this damn thing, dear lord lol. Here is a replay that showcases some of the annoyance this thing can cause. You pick your targets and just eliminate them one way or the other, as evidenced by my pp stalling the Clefairy to near unusability. I still lost the battle bc I pissed about a bit but invalidating two entire pokemon off of a team is ridiculous. Diglett / Dugtrio have the significant drawback still of being Diglett / Dugtrio and not living hits for anything. Trapinch has no such issue, and as such is a definite consideration for ban in time.

As for other bans (Rain, Eviolite, Chatter which I'll make a post about after a bit more testing), I continue to be chaotically neutral and don't see the immediate need for quickbans like I expected I would, and I want to get as many opinions as possible before banning anything, so be sure to make your voice heard! Note that I will consider individual pokemon bans as to avoid an eviolite ban if there is a consensus that that may fix the issue, as that seems like the option that would most lessen collateral damage
 
I actually prefer using Diglett get over Trapinch in this meta as while the ladder is more bulky and stronger, Diglett's ability to outspeed a plethora of threats and break through them more reliably either through Screech + Focus Sash or just Groundium Z makes me believe it to be the better choice for now.

Obviously it is still too early to decide any bans, however I just wanted to highlight the importance to the new stat distribution change had in terms of forming defensive teams. There are still threats that can break through them, but I still feel it can be quite the task without specific counterplay.
 
Speaking of stall...
moltres.gif

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
- Roost

I used this on a bulky semi-stall team vs Peef Rimgar's stall a few nights ago and it single-handedly 6-0'd him. In theory there isn't much that can truly stop Moltres from whittling down the opponent slowly but surely. It beats Mega Sableye in the long run, PP stalling its Knock Offs with ease (0 Atk Sableye-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 84-100 (19.8 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO). Bulky Waters with the power to force out Moltres don't appreciate expending so much PP to do so. And then there's things like Tangela, Chansey, Vullaby, Trapinch, Diglett and so much more that just cannot fight Moltres. Very annoying Pokemon for bulky teams. Try it out if you haven't already.
 
Funbot28 said:
I actually prefer using Diglett get over Trapinch in this meta as while the ladder is more bulky and stronger, Diglett's ability to outspeed a plethora of threats and break through them more reliably either through Screech + Focus Sash or just Groundium Z makes me believe it to be the better choice for now.

Obviously it is still too early to decide any bans, however I just wanted to highlight the importance to the new stat distribution change had in terms of forming defensive teams. There are still threats that can break through them, but I still feel it can be quite the task without specific counterplay.
Click to expand...
Diglett is better to trap HO mons like Koko, Klinklang, Hoopa, etc but Trapinch can just invalidate a ton of Balance and Stall pokemon with toxic stall and raw power. The idea that it can trap more than,once is also extremely irritating, as you could see in the replay I posted where it (practically) got 2 kills with relative ease. If you can be toxic'd or are weak to ground and can't 3hko, you lose.
ScarfWynaut said:
Speaking of stall...
moltres.gif

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
- Roost

I used this on a bulky semi-stall team vs Peef Rimgar's stall a few nights ago and it single-handedly 6-0'd him. In theory there isn't much that can truly stop Moltres from whittling down the opponent slowly but surely. It beats Mega Sableye in the long run, PP stalling its Knock Offs with ease (0 Atk Sableye-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 84-100 (19.8 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO). Bulky Waters with the power to force out Moltres don't appreciate expending so much PP to do so. And then there's things like Tangela, Chansey, Vullaby, Trapinch, Diglett and so much more that just cannot fight Moltres. Very annoying Pokemon for bulky teams. Try it out if you haven't already.
Click to expand...
I can definitely confirm how much of a threat this thing is, it just ruined my entire life from preview. I'd be quite interested to see how it does vs Adrian Marin's Archeops stall, though
 
I like stupid gimmicks so here's the dumb way to beat stall:

Charizard @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 36 SpA / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Toxic
- Rest
- Blast Burn

Block them, then toxic them and spam rest, which prevents them from poisoning you while healing you and allowing you to skip 2 turns (which helps vs stuff like the above Moltres, though I doubt it wins anyway).
I am absolutely clueless when it comes to EVs so I just speedcrept Moltres so you can toxic it before the sub. Max HP helps take Seismic Tosses and Night Shades, while the Sp.Atk investment and nature makes Blast Burn do a bit more.
Speaking of Blast Burn, it's used to get rid of Steel and Poison types that can't be hit by Toxic, as well as just a way to generally dent stuff. It also, similarly to Rest, skips a turn, which helps with PP
Since Charizard's a flying type, no worries about Arena Trap!
I've never used this btw, I just thought it might be cool.

You might be able to use a Firium-Z on this but idk.
 
tapukoko.gif

Tapu Koko @ Leftovers / Terrain Extender (if you run Raichu-A like i did with it!)
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Thunderbolt
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt

This thing is a real irritation for stall that favors Trapinch > Diglett. Natures Madness + Taunt is an absolute terror to deal with and U-turn pivoting nullifies trapping. Diglett stall doesn't really give a piss about it but if you can catch a bulkier team without it this thing is horrifying. Eterrain is also nice for the Tangela stall matchup since it nullifies sleep powder. Here's a hot replay of it causing Adrian serious problems (yes I still lose but not bc of the set failing me, because I let Raichu die). OU mons can still have niches I swear!

Tapu Fini may do something similar but that mon is a pretty big momentum sap in TS will all the super elevated stat levels, more testing is needed tho.

stoutland.gif

Stoutland @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Superpower
- Crunch
- Facade

Now this mon is an absolute terror in sand. Nothing not named Tangela is coming in on this absolute powerhouse without paying a price. Facade is nice for the off chance you get burned, as it actually makes you more powerful than your opponent could possibly imagine.Here's a replay I got vs ScarfWynaut's semi-hail team where it just sorta won as long as sand was up.

Notes for sand: You need a Jellicent and a Anti-Tangela.
 
tangela_by_dagonart_d9w8w8h.png


It had to be made. This is for Kabutops, our fallen rain dwellers.

I think we can all agree that Tangela is too good at checking threats—not just physical attackers, but special too. It's capable of walling half the metagame without consequence. To make it worse, it has access to moves like Sleep Powder, Knock Off, and Leech Seed, making it even MORE difficult to prepare for.
  • Access to Sleep Powder and Knock Off limits feasible switch-ins
  • Enough physical bulk to comfortably wall all but powerful STAB SE attacks
  • With special defense investment, it can check threats such as Ludicolo, Kingdra, Electric-types, and powerful Psychic-types that abuse the combination of Psyshock and attacks that hit Tangela's seemingly vulnerable SpD
  • High 140 SpA; can even go offensive
  • Regenerator makes it very hard to kill
  • Not afraid of Trapinch and Diglett
  • 252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 154-183 (37.1 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • +2 252+ Atk Kabutops Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 262-310 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 195-231 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO
  • 252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 174-205 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 264-312 (63.7 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Seems like Tangela is the main issue right now. I REALLY want to keep this thing and use it on all my stall teams, but it's way too good in every single way. At this point, we should really talk about suspecting or banning Tangela.
 
Given it's universal hatred from basically every player I've talked to, I've reached the decision that Tangela is Quickbanned from Tier Shift. There are multiple facets to this ban, so allow me to address them:

Tangela sports quite insane bulk of 105 / 155 / 80. On it's own, this stat level seems like it'd be pretty easily lureable due to its lackluster SpDef stat in such a power creep heavy metagame. HOWEVER, with Eviolite, it doesn't care about attacks. Period. Tangela can run max spdef due to it's insane natural physical bulk, therefor cancelling out its one theoretical weakness. You would also think it could be easily worn down, right? Well, no because Regenerator makes the thing unkillable in practicality. It single handedly can invalidate offensive teams and is hardly killable at all, therefor it is banned.

"But peef! Why not ban Eviolite!"

The thing is, while Eviolite does prove itself to be quite a good item, on any other pokemon it comes with opportunity cost of not running a different item (Lefties, Shed Shell, etc). Plus, other pokemon with the item do have weaknesses. They can be worn down, genuinely nuisance by status, etc. Tangela carries none of those issues with it, beating all the metagame's trappers outright and having Regenerator for the recovery lefties could offer. If there were a more significant number of pokemon at Tangela's level Eviolite would be the direction I'm taking, but since Tangela is head and shoulders above all of them I feel that a Tangela ban is the best option for Tier Shift to make the metagame more competitive while avoiding collateral damage.

With this post, I'd like to make an official outcalling for people interested in joining the Tier Shift council, for what I consider public enemy number 2 and what will likely be the most broken playstyle now that Tangela is gone: Rain
 
217.gif

Ursaring @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Crunch / Play Rough / Gunk Shot / Close Combat / Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Was just passing time admiring all the UU Tier below mons with /ts name and came across this guy and i immediately knew this was what i wanted to build around and this thing is a damn nuke. With the current boosts Ursaring sits at an impressive 740 Base Stat with 130 / 170 / 115 / 115 / 115 / 95. With Guts and a base 170 ATK to boot up, this thing quickly became a powerhouse in my eyes. I run the Guts + Flame Orb set because this seemed better than the common Quick Feet set which is also effective but this is just better versus every play-style out there. Guts + Flame Orb not only make Facade a 140 BP kill switch but also makes Ursa a great tool to absorb status and give stall considerable trouble. Most run Jolly on this thing since 95 speed in this meta is nothing but i run this with webs support for extra demolition. Facade is the best move and what you click to kill most of the time. I ran Gunk Shot personally in the 2nd slot to get surprising damage on fairies and Tangela and apply more pressure but Facade does the same anyway and i replaced it with crunch to prevent Levitate ghosts running in the tier from laughing in it's face. Earthquake is one the best moves to run since it almost dents everything neutrally, can demolish steel types on the switch-ins and more coverage helps. Finally SD is the best move to run and i personally recommend it since at +2 it's a wrap, your opponent is sent to limbo unless he has some fighting types or a unaware wall in the back. This thing can demolish offense with proper support, eats balance for dinner everyday and can put some decent work against stall.

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 116-138 (31.8 - 37.9%) -- 94% chance to 3HKO (This is unboosted, you can easily 2HKO it at +2 since the wow/rest set does nothing back.

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Type: Null: 180-213 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Again doesn't hurt much back and feel free to SD and wreck)

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 262-309 (57.7 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 331-391 (60.8 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 283-334 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 162-192 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Banned baby)

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 226-268 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Spiritomb does nothing back but can take hits easily unless you run play rough which is also a viable coverage)

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 237-279 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Yeah, unaware wall NO!)

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 190-224 (41.8 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 202-238 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO ( Again Foul Play varients are threatening but definitely not a switch)

Ursaring also has respective bulk and can setup on many Pokemon in the tier. This does not go without ignoring the fault of the Pokemon as Ursaring although very powerful chooses what walls it as it has various great coverage but not everything can be run as SD + Facade is what sells the set. Play Rough helps nail Ghost/Darks and the likes of Vullaby but is not that great outside of it, Stone Edge hasn't been worth running, Crunch is probably the best option as well as Close Combat and Gunk Shot for fairies. Ursaring also needs lots of support to demolish teams such as hazards, webs and certain pokemon gone and the plethora of fighting types in this tier haunt this beast. However this is one of the most nasty breakers and cleaners this tier has to offer and running and supporting it can give great results.

Replays: This win doesn't mean anything since i am only a bot.

TL;DR Try Ursaring for destruction, use webs + hazard stack if you have Guts.

q0dMQm3.png
 
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