Metagame Tier Shift

[RNGIsFatal]

Last night, I had couple Tier Shift games which were the first ones in my life. I have enjoyed playing the meta where otherwise-would-be-subpar-'mons would turn into monsters thanks to the premise of the tier.

However, I have realized the problem that was visible to even the newest of the newest player in the tier that is possibly another universal cancer followed by Tangela:

Pyukumuku.​

Because most of my OU teams are based on stall, I attempted on building stall-based teams which would obviously consist with Mega Sableye (turned out to be a shit mon in this meta but needed Magic Bounce), Miltank as pseudo-Chansey which can function as cleric, Golbat as defogger, and Unaware Quagsire as a setup check. After being obliterated by Nasty Plot Ninetales, I have decided to get Unaware user, and the first thing that came up to me was Pyukumuku.

Outsides tier shift, due to low HP stats, Pyukumuku tends to struggle functioning as an efficient wall. However, story is different in Tier Shift.

This monstrous bulk lets Pykukumku live 2 Solar Beams from base 120 SpAtk assuming non-STAB, and gives 0 fuck to most offensive 'mons. As I was using Pyukumuku, it's bulk turned out to be capable of doing stuff like this:

252+ Atk Guts Gurdurr Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pyukumuku: 130-153 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 6.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Especially for Gurdurr, according to my short experience, it mostly gets Drain Punch and that means it can't break Pyukumuku after prior damage and after x1.5 Attack boost from Guts triggers after being poisoned. Choice wallbreakers can't break Pyukumuku without doing some prior damage, and if they just stay in for rolls of secondary effect, they just end up losing their STAB boost thanks to Soak.

I am pretty sure Pyukumuku is not the only 'mon which boasts this level of monstrosity in bulk, but the ones who are able to have similar bulk as Pyukumuku are usually reliant on its typing and Eviolite, which can be ruined by omnipresent Knock Off. But Pyukumuku is the freakin Unaware wall that has like 2 weakness, and this leaves status as the only way to actually cripple it, but because of Pyukumuku's passive nature, it is mostly accompanied by semi-stall or stall teams in which cleric most likely exists.

I thought it would be just me but Aman Indra agreed that Pyukumuku is one of the most impenetrable walls in the current metagame that is causing some sort of unhealthiness and was eager for suspect / ban. However, because I feel like I have to lurk around more in this meta, I will stop here.

While we are able to stop this Pyukumuku using Taunt or Substitute, it can still invalidate most offensive teams that do not specifically prepare to break it (in my perspective), and I believe Pyukumuku is definitely a worthwhile topic of discussion for current Tier Shift meta. Thanks for reading.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

I don't think pyukumuku is banworthy. It is extremely bulky, but also extremely passive, even more passive than other walls. Its only way of doing damage is via toxic and counter, but both can easily be avoided by using Substitute or Taunt and by not attacking it physically. It doesn't even get Scald to fish for burns while being taunted!
Bulk alone should not be a reason for a ban, otherwise stuff like Chansey should get banned too - and Chansey is way less passive than this little blob thanks to Seismic Tosss.

 

[Aman Indra]

I don't think pyukumuku is banworthy. It is extremely bulky, but also extremely passive, even more passive than other walls. Its only way of doing damage is via toxic and counter, but both can easily be avoided by using Substitute or Taunt and by not attacking it physically. It doesn't even get Scald to fish for burns while being taunted!
Bulk alone should not be a reason for a ban, otherwise stuff like Chansey should get banned too - and Chansey is way less passive than this little blob thanks to Seismic Tosss.

1) Pyukumuku is relatively bulky on both sides unlike chansey which is a one trick pony.

2) Pyukumuku provides much more to the table than Quagsire or any other mon stall needs to run.

3) Pyukumuku has access to counter which lets it bypass certain physical mons with taunt and tank and kill many physical attackers.

4) Pyukumuku is taunt bait but it's passivity cannot be abused and very restrictive attackers and sets need to be ran or even secondary checks to it.


I will provide a more comprehensive post when I get on PC and the meta hasn't settled yet but this constipated pile definitely isn't healthy for the meta.

 

[BoCo365]

So I think that Scrafty or Scraggy could really shine in this meta, given the right stuff, but I can't ever build a good set. Any ideas?

 

[tegrof19]

Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Surf/Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Gunk Shot
- Dark Pulse/Ice Beam

Literally a faster, stronger, bulkier version of Protean Greninja
without Extrasensory but whatever​

in a meta where everything is bulkier, i don't see this doing much

remember, the overall effectiveness of mons is scaled highly compared to ou, so it's not a good comparison

 

[dsm77773]

1) Pyukumuku is relatively bulky on both sides unlike chansey which is a one trick pony.

2) Pyukumuku provides much more to the table than Quagsire or any other mon stall needs to run.

3) Pyukumuku has access to counter which lets it bypass certain physical mons with taunt and tank and kill many physical attackers.

4) Pyukumuku is taunt bait but it's passivity cannot be abused and very restrictive attackers and sets need to be ran or even secondary checks to it.


I will provide a more comprehensive post when I get on PC and the meta hasn't settled yet but this constipated pile definitely isn't healthy for the meta.

Pyukumuku is currently the best Unaware out there for stall teams. It is superior to Quagsire and Clefable due to a much higher, all-around bulk. It's defensive typing is also great, being only weak to Grass and Electric, none of which are x4 weaknesses (this makes it difficult to lure, unlike Quagsire which has to watch out for unexpected Grass-type moves). Coupled with it's immense bulk (which is not aided by Eviolite), Pyukumuku is almost impossible to OHKO and very hard to 2HKO, even with super-effective moves. If Pyukumuku wasn't hard enough to 2HKO already, it has access to Light Screen to boost further its Special Defense (and supporting the team at the same time) and Soak, which let's it poison Steel-types but also notably remove STAB from the opposing Pokémon.
Pyukumuku is most infamous for its passiveness, being total Substitute or Taunt bait. These two are admittedly the easiest way around Pyukumuku. However, one attacking move that Pyukumuku does get is Counter. This restrains it's possible answers even further, as Pyukumuku can tank a strong physical hit and then Counter back for a OHKO. For example:
252 Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Pyukumuku: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Guts Ursaring can do around 52-62% to Pyukumuku, thus being capable of 2HKOing it unlike many Pokémon. However, Pyukumuku can then Counter back for a clean OHKO no matter the roll (worst possible scenario: Pyukumuku takes 205 HP damage then counters back for 410. Ursaring's max uninvested HP is 401 after Tier Shift's boosts, thus making Counter a clean OHKO). Not only that, Pyukumuku is difficult to revenge kill due to it's already mentioned bulk, coupled with its access to Recover.
Stall is already one of the best playstyles in Tier Shift. This is because of the way Tier Shift works mechanically. Tier Shift gives plain boosts all-around. This might seem like it boosts offense and defense equally, but turns out, it doesn't. Bulk can grow in two dimentions: HP and the corresponding Defense, while offense can only grow in one: the corresponding Attack. This makes everything relatively bulkier in Tier Shift than in standard. For example, the above calcs without the Tier Shift's boosts:
252 Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 205-243 (65.2 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Pyukumuku: 211-249 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
These are just standard PU calcs. Still a 2HKO, but now Pyukumuku takes a lot more damage.
Now, stall definitely needs to be prepared for in Tier Shift. However, Pyukumuku almost requires an specific answer for itself. So, now you need to prepare for stall AND Pyukumuku, and for the latter of which you need either a Taunt Pokémon attacking from the special side of the spectrum (for example, stallbreaker Tapu Koko) or a Pokémon that uses Substitute. That doesn't mean the stall team itself isn't manageable. Stall for itself isn't a broken playstyle in my opinion, but Pyukumuku forces you to run very specific answers to an archetype that already needs to be prepared for. So, I do think Pyukumuku is currently having a negative effect in the metagame. It might not be broken nor uncompetitive, but it is restrictive.

 

[Schpoonman]

I'm just really having trouble seeing Pyukumuku be a problem when none of its movepool problems (always its biggest grief) haven't been fixed.

It may be extremely hard to cleanly 2HKO, but who cares when any Stallbreaker beats it 100% of the time? Taunt and any passive damage puts it under. Counter won't help either, since it doesn't deal damage on its own (hence why literally anything with Seismic Toss or Night Shade is more threatening), so at best you Counter their chip (assuming they don't just plant a Toxic on you and then laugh all the way to the bank) and they recover it off for free.

 

[dsm77773]

I'm just really having trouble seeing Pyukumuku be a problem when none of its movepool problems (always its biggest grief) haven't been fixed.

It may be extremely hard to cleanly 2HKO, but who cares when any Stallbreaker beats it 100% of the time? Taunt and any passive damage puts it under. Counter won't help either, since it doesn't deal damage on its own (hence why literally anything with Seismic Toss or Night Shade is more threatening), so at best you Counter their chip (assuming they don't just plant a Toxic on you and then laugh all the way to the bank) and they recover it off for free.

First, status doesn't help vs. Pyukumuku at all. Pyukumuku is too passive to be run on anything but stall, which must have a cleric. Second, the whole point of Counter is invalidating anything that could 2HKO Pyukumuku from the physical side. Third, passive =/= not unhealthy.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Last night, I had couple Tier Shift games which were the first ones in my life. I have enjoyed playing the meta where otherwise-would-be-subpar-'mons would turn into monsters thanks to the premise of the tier.

However, I have realized the problem that was visible to even the newest of the newest player in the tier that is possibly another universal cancer followed by Tangela:

Pyukumuku.​

Because most of my OU teams are based on stall, I attempted on building stall-based teams which would obviously consist with Mega Sableye (turned out to be a shit mon in this meta but needed Magic Bounce), Miltank as pseudo-Chansey which can function as cleric, Golbat as defogger, and Unaware Quagsire as a setup check. After being obliterated by Nasty Plot Ninetales, I have decided to get Unaware user, and the first thing that came up to me was Pyukumuku.

Outsides tier shift, due to low HP stats, Pyukumuku tends to struggle functioning as an efficient wall. However, story is different in Tier Shift.
View attachment 87701
This monstrous bulk lets Pykukumku live 2 Solar Beams from base 120 SpAtk assuming non-STAB, and gives 0 fuck to most offensive 'mons. As I was using Pyukumuku, it's bulk turned out to be capable of doing stuff like this:

252+ Atk Guts Gurdurr Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pyukumuku: 130-153 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 6.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Especially for Gurdurr, according to my short experience, it mostly gets Drain Punch and that means it can't break Pyukumuku after prior damage and after x1.5 Attack boost from Guts triggers after being poisoned. Choice wallbreakers can't break Pyukumuku without doing some prior damage, and if they just stay in for rolls of secondary effect, they just end up losing their STAB boost thanks to Soak.

I am pretty sure Pyukumuku is not the only 'mon which boasts this level of monstrosity in bulk, but the ones who are able to have similar bulk as Pyukumuku are usually reliant on its typing and Eviolite, which can be ruined by omnipresent Knock Off. But Pyukumuku is the freakin Unaware wall that has like 2 weakness, and this leaves status as the only way to actually cripple it, but because of Pyukumuku's passive nature, it is mostly accompanied by semi-stall or stall teams in which cleric most likely exists.

I thought it would be just me but Aman Indra agreed that Pyukumuku is one of the most impenetrable walls in the current metagame that is causing some sort of unhealthiness and was eager for suspect / ban. However, because I feel like I have to lurk around more in this meta, I will stop here.

While we are able to stop this Pyukumuku using Taunt or Substitute, it can still invalidate most offensive teams that do not specifically prepare to break it (in my perspective), and I believe Pyukumuku is definitely a worthwhile topic of discussion for current Tier Shift meta. Thanks for reading.

If you've played stall in many different metagames, then you'll know that good walls are supposed to take most choice boosted attacks STAB attacks, especially if they're hit in the relevant stat. That's what walls are for, that's why stall works, and that's why offensive archetypes (in any metagame) absolutely necessitate the use of Stealth Rock to offensively break competent stall teams. I think everyone is grandly overstating the efficiency of Pyukumuku to the point where Pyukumuku appears to be much better than Quagsire. Courtesy of the recent removal of Deep Sea Tooth and Damp Rock, Quagsire is just as good, or at least relatively close to Pyuk in terms of effectiveness. Quagsire has similar physical bulk and can wall many of the same threats, as well as certain stallbreakers, too, something Pyukumuku is extremely prone to. Scald and Earthquake are amazing assets that should not be ignored. Furthermore, while I agree we should talk about Pyukumuku, I don't think offensive players being forced to prepare for Pyukumuku is a bad thing. This is what we'd call logical counterplay. In OU, ever spotted any of those Hidden Power Ice lures, all of whom are meant to hit Landorus-T in OU? Yeah, Pyukumuku is different. It can usually take super effective coverage, but not all the time. However, its main weakness, as you said, lies with moves such as Taunt, as well as Substitute, assuming you're a special attacker.

1) Pyukumuku is relatively bulky on both sides unlike chansey which is a one trick pony.

2) Pyukumuku provides much more to the table than Quagsire or any other mon stall needs to run.

3) Pyukumuku has access to counter which lets it bypass certain physical mons with taunt and tank and kill many physical attackers.

4) Pyukumuku is taunt bait but it's passivity cannot be abused and very restrictive attackers and sets need to be ran or even secondary checks to it.


I will provide a more comprehensive post when I get on PC and the meta hasn't settled yet but this constipated pile definitely isn't healthy for the meta.

1) Chansey, while possessing unassailable special bulk, still boasts respectable physical bulk comparable to that of an unboosted Donphan. Certainly allows it to take a lot of mixed attackers.

2) I completely disagree with your second point. Pyukumuku is quite often a liability against some of the more powerful archetypes, such as quick stall and balance with stallbreakers. Furthermore, its lack of a consistent attacking move renders it prone to a variety of threatening moves offensive Pokemon use, such as Taunt, and in some cases, Substitute (not to mention these options are not used for the sole purpose of defeating Pyukumuku, mind you). Quagsire's electric immunity is often a huge asset, not to mention it has access to Scald and Earthquake. I can say with confidence that Quagsire is as good, or close to as good as Pyukumuku now that Deep Sea Tooth and Damp Rock are banned.

3) What physical Pokemon are you talking about? I can only think of Ursaring and Zangoose, which isn't a valid argument, given the extremely limited scenarios in which a Pokemon with Taunt would lose to Pyukumuku. Most Pokemon can use Taunt and PP stall Pyukumuku until it runs out of Counter PP

4) Of course its passivity can be abused! In fact, it's a huge problem. Granted, it's effective at countering a lot of threats, but you can literally switch in any Steel-type or Poison-type in, and Pyukumuku will have no way to threaten them other than the combination of Soak + Toxic. Pyuk should always run Taunt + Counter, however. It allows it to take on Diglett and Trapinch without getting PP stalled or getting subbed on. Ferroseed, for example, switches in for free and sets Spikes assuming Pyukumuku doesn't Taunt Ferroseed on the switch. Quagsire, on the other hand, can at least threaten many of the switch-ins Pyukumuku is prone to with Earthquake or Scald. A burned Ferroseed, or anything really, is a Ferroseed that will have a lower chance of winning the hazard war.


I haven't seen any compelling arguments or clear indication that Pyukumuku is unhealthy for the metagame. A lot of Pokemon possess similar bulk without Eviolite. And while Unaware may be an extremely powerful ability, Pyukumuku is very passive and is unable to threaten common hazard setters and stallbreakers. I would compare Pyukumuku to this gen's Mega Sableye. Oppressive in some ways, but not without sufficient and practical counterplay. Quagsire has a 4x Grass weakness and can be lured, yes, but several users in this debate are overstating its Grass weakness. Relevant Pokemon Quagsire is designated to counter do not boast Grass coverage.

As there are many bulky Pokemon, and Unaware is the reason that makes Pyukumuku broken, then consider this: If Quagsire is targeted to counter setup sweepers, and said setup sweeper has a coverage move that is impossible to anticipate, i.e. Hidden Power Grass, then said setup physical attacker would be forced to compromise on coverage to kill Quagsire. Yeah, if this whole argument pertains to Unaware making Pyukumuku broken, then you'd have to agree Quagsire is just as oppressive, since boosters will usually not run Grass coverage unless they possess something practical, such as Seed Bomb. Besides, if you run Grass coverage, get ready to be countered by the many walls that usually accompany it. Because Absol with a set of Swords Dance / Knock Off / Play Rough / Hidden Power Grass is so practical lol. Surprise factor is a valid argument, but it is usually possible to scout for HP Grass and such in a meta as bulky as Tier Shift. I supported the Tangela ban because it was pretty much unkillable, not passive at all, and quite threatening offensively. I can say without a doubt that Pyukumuku is no where close to the level Tangela was. Pyukumuku has very crippling flaws that hold it back against the more relevant and effective archetypes in today's metagame.

Quagsire hates Grass-type coverage, Pyukumuku hates Taunt and sometimes Substitute. Some people are already convinced Pyukumuku is overpowered because it took a Solar Beam from a Pokemon that only received RU boosts (RNGIsFatal I assume you thought Ninetales receives PU boosts with Drought. This is not the case; it only has 101 base Special Attack if it is using Drought because Drought is banned in NU.) If my assessment is incorrect, please forgive me. I think we should all relax. It's only been about one and a half days since TS was fixed and some users assert that Pyukumuku, a Pokemon with no attacking moves but Counter and vulnerabilities such as Taunt, is ruining the metagame. Pyukumuku was so good because it was able to counter both Clamperl and Kabutops back when they were still relevant. This role compression was too much to give up on. From here on, you're going to see as much Quagsire as Pyukumuku in the future, that I can tell you.

And with that said, I'd like to share a fun little core that utilises Quagsire's awesome walling abilities.

Hide

Natu @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Haze
- Night Shade
- Toxic

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- U-turn
- Toxic

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Toxic
- Earthquake

Natu + Scizor form a strong anti-hazard core. The combination of the two grants more than sufficient counterplay against many of the metagame's premier hazard setters. Scizor takes Grass mons for Quag, Quag takes fire mons for Scizor, and both effectively cover Natu's Absol problem. This core just works great! Scizor is also a decent check to Ursaring lacking Fire Punch. Scizor also defogs reliably against Roselia. Couple that with the threat of Natu, and you have a very strong anti-hazard setup.

 

[dsm77773]

While I agree we should talk about Pyukumuku, I don't think offensive players being forced to prepare for Pyukumuku is a bad thing. This is what we'd call logical counterplay. In OU, ever spotted any of those Hidden Power Ice lures, all of whom are meant to hit Landorus-T in OU? Yeah, Pyukumuku is different. It can usually take super effective coverage, but not all the time. However, its main weakness, as you said, lies with moves such as Taunt, as well as Substitute, assuming you're a special attacker.

This is why I'm saying Pyukumuku is restrictive: it forces you to run a special Taunt / Sub attacker. I think we should indeed wait for the metagame to settle a bit to check if that's too restrictive or not.

I haven't seen any compelling arguments or clear indication that Pyukumuku is unhealthy for the metagame.

Read above.

I would compare Pyukumuku to this gen's Mega Sableye. Oppressive in some ways, but not without sufficient and practical counterplay.

I think the key in this entire discussion is the bolded statement here. It's obvious that Pyukumuku is oppressive, but is it to the point that there isn't enough practical counterplay?

Relevant Pokemon Quagsire is designated to counter do not boast Grass coverage.

If said threats did run Grass coverage, Quagsire wouldn't be designated to counter them anyway?

As there are many bulky Pokemon, and Unaware is the reason that makes Pyukumuku broken, then consider this: If Quagsire is targeted to counter setup sweepers, and said setup sweeper has a coverage move that is impossible to anticipate, i.e. Hidden Power Grass, then said setup physical attacker would be forced to compromise on coverage to kill Quagsire. Yeah, if this whole argument pertains to Unaware making Pyukumuku broken, then you'd have to agree Quagsire is just as oppressive, since boosters will usually not run Grass coverage unless they possess something practical, such as Seed Bomb. Besides, if you run Grass coverage, get ready to be countered by the many walls that usually accompany it. Because Absol with a set of Swords Dance / Knock Off / Play Rough / Hidden Power Grass is so practical lol. Surprise factor is a valid argument, but it is usually possible to scout for HP Grass and such in a meta as bulky as Tier Shift.

The whole argument with Quagsire's x4 Grass weakness is luring. Also, scouting and bluffing go both ways.

I supported the Tangela ban because it was pretty much unkillable, not passive at all, and quite threatening offensively. I can say without a doubt that Pyukumuku is no where close to the level Tangela was.

I think this should be obvious. If Pyukumuku was this ridiculous it would probably be quickbanned already. Let's not overstate its capabilities either.

Some people are already convinced Pyukumuku is overpowered because it took a Solar Beam from a Pokemon that only received RU boosts (RNGIsFatal I assume you thought Ninetales receives PU boosts with Drought. This is not the case; it only has 101 base Special Attack if it is using Drought because Drought is banned in NU.) If my assessment is incorrect, please forgive me.

This is a point I have to agree with. Sheer bulk alone is not a reason to ban anything, other factors should be examined (access to reliable recovery, defensive typing, passiveness, item and move pool, hazard vulnerability, the support it provides for its team, etc.).

I think we should all relax. It's only been about one and a half days since TS was fixed and some users assert that Pyukumuku, a Pokemon with no attacking moves but Counter and vulnerabilities such as Taunt, is ruining the metagame. Pyukumuku was so good because it was able to counter both Clamperl and Kabutops back when they were still relevant. This role compression was too much to give up on. From here on, you're going to see as much Quagsire as Pyukumuku in the future, that I can tell you.

I think we should keep an eye on Pyukumuku, still it's too early to take action. Let's see how the metagame develops but Pyukumuku should not go unnoticed.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

I still don't see why Pyukumuku should ever be banworthy. If you have Taunt or Substitute, you can use it as setup bait despite it having unaware - because a pyukumuku can't do shit when it is taunted or faces a substitute. That's also why I always use Quagsire over Pyukumuku.

 

[Aman Indra]

I still don't see why Pyukumuku should ever be banworthy. If you have Taunt or Substitute, you can use it as setup bait despite it having unaware - because a pyukumuku can't do shit when it is taunted or faces a substitute. That's also why I always use Quagsire over Pyukumuku.

Did you use and state the same argument twice ?
First of all drop this argument of passive = no ban or suspect or ignore, let it be, it's honestly bullshit. Unaware is such a powerful ability in this setup heavy meta which is needed for effective counter-play to exist but Pyuk is honestly too good all measures taken. Pyukumuku can do some shit when he is taunted and the fact that a decent chunk of physical attackers die to counter and even those who don't have to resort to stalling out gives a good measure of how it warps builds because i have build many teams and most of the my and other player's stall-breakers are either extremely powerful breakers like Ursaring and Zangoose which are honestly not niche because they are seeing good amounts of play and they are the very best at what they intend to and they can't even 1v1 Pyuk with their best sets.

Others forms of stall-breakers being used are just random mons who can run taunt over something they usually run for coverage or random things like Taunt Primeape, Taunt Turtonator etc and the argument "All Stall-breakers can cock on Pyuk" is not true as while he is susceptible to Taunt and Sub, it's not a auto death button for Pyukumuku since if it's physical it still requires PP Stalling and the likes to even do something.

The Things that are sure-fire way to screw Pyuk are electrics or anything that can hit super-effectively from the special side while also not getting recover or toxic stalled the likes are all Oricorio-Forms, Tapu Koko and Pikachu/Alolan Raichu or niche stuff like Toxicroak, Bibarel which can saw screw it to Pyuk but since cant take it 1v1 outright. All of these Pokes are pretty good and viable in the meta however their main justification of screwing a certain mon isn't right.

Persian-Alola gets a special mention as it is a great pivot while Taunt and Toxic Stalling Pyuk to death however its extremely frail from the special side and hazards and status do affect it's staying power due to lack of recovery.

When i or anyone generally builds an offensive or balance teams, we usually pick a stall-breaker which helps support the team while helps in the match-up versus stall like Persian-Alola with fast taunts, Taunt Guts Ursa, Swoobat since most of the Stall-breakers just Taunt or Sub and then SETUP and break stall. This is where Pyukumuku comes in spoiling it cold which is necessary to thrive since stall needs counter-measures because meta is full of threats looking to break cores at any turn. However, Pyuk is restricting in the fact that it usually requires a secondary measure to muscle past it or running special stall-breakers or specific stall-breakers to be effective.

Lastly this is not a attack or nerf on stall since stall is a skillful play-style to build and pilot in a metagame full of boosted threats which can spoil the game in 2-3 turns and like Adrian Marin said it needs and must be allowed to thrive however while Pyuk and Quagsire perform the same basic function Pyuk in my and some other users opinion brings a little more to the table than required and even if it has effective counter-play, the counter-play is restrictive often depending on certain choices and move-sets to be ran.

I am in no way stating that Pyukumuku is ban-worthy and it should be immediately kicked out nor am i convincing people that Pyukumuku-less meta will be 100% more healthy. However the sheer bulk, utility and all the factors Pyukumuku brings to the table, i firmly believe its over-bearing to the point where in some future or time since meta hasn't settled yet, it should be given a suspect or closer look at.

What Pyukumuku Basically Does

 

[OminousShiny]

Ninjask: a Pokemon with one of the highest base speed stats at 160 along with the +40 since its pu, and the 120 base attack, it can really become a great threat when +2 from swords dance. IT can only be outsped if a good base speed Pokemon has a scarf.
I suggest sd,x scissor,arial ace <-- (soz for spelling) and either u turn or a move of your choice.

 

[earl]

Ninjask: a Pokemon with one of the highest base speed stats at 160 along with the +40 since its pu, and the 120 base attack, it can really become a great threat when +2 from swords dance. IT can only be outsped if a good base speed Pokemon has a scarf.
I suggest sd,x scissor,arial ace <-- (soz for spelling) and either u turn or a move of your choice.

You're better offer running Z-dig to deal with rocks and steels.
E: Over aerial ace or u-turn probably

 

[DrPumpkinz]

You're better offer running Z-dig to deal with rocks and steels.
E: Over aerial ace or u-turn probably

Also, Leech Life over X-Scissor. Something like this, methinks.

Ninjask @ Groundium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leech Life
- Dig
- Double-Edge / Protect

 

[aVocado]

Mesprit @ Expert Belt
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam

I honestly don't know what's good or not in this tier but in my group of friends Gurdurr is very common and so I was looking for a rocker as well as a gurdurr check for my team and I didn't think I'd find both in one mon, but lo and behold, Mesprit is actually pretty nuts. It guarantees Stealth Rock with 125/145/145 bulk, and 145 Atk and SpA mean its knock offs and psychics pack a real punch. I didn't wanna use Life Orb so I could make use of its bulk to check Gurdurr, so I opted for Expert Belt which I'm not a huge fan of but eh, what can we do honestly. I don't know what the last slot should be but I went for Ice Beam just for coverage, but I might change it if I feel lie I don't need it or would rather a different move, like U-turn or tbolt.

Silvally-Fairy @ Fairy Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Rest
- Multi-Attack
- Sleep Talk

Another mon I used to check Gurdurr as well and I felt like I needed a dark resist so here goes. Silvally is a Pokemon I really like and wish was viable in official tiers but I guess it can't shine unless its an OM that somehow makes it good lol. A Fairy-type with those ridiculous stats (135 across the board) with investment means its super fucking bulky and can pretty much take any Fighting or Dark type, or even Dragon I guess. I'm sure a better or more optimal spread can be used but for now since I know so little I just went for a simple max/max. Lack of leftovers and reliable recovery sucks big time, though.

Absol @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough

This honestly just sounds so fucking insane. SD with that attack, that bulk, that speed, that ability which is actually useful on it now since it can take a hit, priority, knock off, just HNNNNGGGGG THIS POKEMON FEELS SO SATISFYING TO USE

I guess Iron Tail could be an option on the last move as well.

 

[readytolose]

Are we making appreciation posts for mons we like? I'm down with that.

121/120/102/120/159/138
Virizion is one of my favourite mons to use in this tier. I know it was mentioned earlier but I want to go into a little more detail. Despite facing a bit of competition from other Grass-types, especially those with higher attacking stats, Virizion distinguishes itself with a better offensive type and excellent neutral coverage. It has a very solid speed tier, putting it just ahead of threats like Scyther, Silvally, Diglett, Electivire, and Haunter, and with its excellent Special Defense, it can handily switch into special rain sweepers. The sets it runs are basically the same as in standard play. Virizion's Swords Dance set typically runs Leaf Blade and Close Combat, and then Stone Edge with Rockium Z as the last move, although I can see Zen Headbutt with Psychium Z catching on too. This set has the excellent perk of being a fool-proof Knock Off switch-in, as the Z-stone cannot be Knocked Off and Virizion receives a cool +1 Attack from Justified. Given how common mons with Eviolite are, there are plenty of Knock Offs to switch into. There is also the admittedly inferior Calm Mind set, that I haven't really used but it's probably okay too. Virizion's main flaw is perhaps that it's somewhat weak, even with a boost, leaving it unable to break some of the metagame's bulkier threats, making it more of a sort of balance breaker.

100/118/175/131/125/76

As I'm sure many of you know, Tier Shift is full of powerful Shell Smash users. Turtonator is one of the better ones in my eyes, and I'm surprised it's gone somewhat overlooked. Its unique Fire/Dragon typing, while weak to rocks, gives it a healthy number of resistances with which to set up with. Offensively, it's quite good too, hitting most threats neutrally. Most notably, its Dragon STAB lets it beat Sliggoo, one of the specially bulkiest mons available, which is typically used as a check to special Fire-types. It also has good physical bulk (although most Shell Smashers do) and isn't super weak to priority. Turtonator is deceptively flexible, too, as it has a few usable options for its fourth move that let it get around certain threats. Shell Smash, Fire Blast, and Dragon Pulse are basically no-brainers, but the last move depends. Hidden Power Grass lets Turtonator 2HKO Quagsire handily and also does more to a handful of threats such as Carracosta, Omastar, Marill, and Gastrodon. Taunt can be used to completely shut down Pyukumuku, as well as potentially bamboozle some other stall mons that would try to Toxic Turtonator. The last potential move is Draco Meteor coupled with Dragonium Z, which is perhaps the best option for dealing a lot of damage to offense, but you give up the Z-move slot, and the ability to run White Herb. It should also be noted that Draco Meteor can 2HKO Quagsire, but the special attack drops give up your ability to sustain a sweep. Z-Draco Meteor is also the only move that always OHKOs all variants of Sliggoo.


These are two of my favourite mons to use right now. There are others, but I feel like if I wrote about Claydol, Pikachu, or Stunfisk people would laugh at me.

 

[Buttermink]

Is there a damage calculator for Tier Shift specifically?

 

[Aman Indra]

Is there a damage calculator for Tier Shift specifically?

Unfortunately I don't think so. Would have been so convenient if there was since operating the calculator and giving boosts every time is lazy.

 

[Scarletcoin]

I have an interesting water spam rain team that i think could be a solid base for rain offence (though it lacks a little in terms of fast sweepers aside from Seismitoad).

Water Spam Rain Offence

Seismitoad @ Life Orb/Expert Belt
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Grass Knot

Seismitoad is probably the best swift swim abuser due to its great special attack and wide coverage.

Araquanid @ Waterium Z
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Infestation
- Toxic

Pretty self-explanatory. Extremely powerful physical water nuke with good bulk to back it up

Politoed @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Automatic rain, meant as a weather setter.

Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Roar

All-around great support mon. Using roar to phase set-up/waste weather turns for opposing weather

Tornadus @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Rain Dance
- Hurricane
- Superpower
- U-turn

Prankster rain and special nuke

Vikavolt @ Charti Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Roost
- Energy Ball
- Bug Buzz

To round out the team and add a second grass and second electric type switch-in.

If anyone can make improvements, that would be appreciated as I am new to team building.

 

[Mr Spaz]

Haven't seen anything about this guy yet, so why not?

Chatot

Base stats: 116/105/85/132/82/131
Chatot @ Life Orb
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Chatter
- Heat Wave/Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Defog/Nasty Plot

 

[Schpoonman]

Last I played TS I had a Specs Chatot. Boomburst is actually quite difficult to switch into, but Steel-types still wall it.

 

[Don Vascus]

Hi, do you have some time to hear about our lord and savior's preevolution Bibarel?

Too big

119/125/100/90/100/111
Untested (Bibarel) @ Life Orb/Normalium Z/ waterium Z
Ability: Simple
- Swords Dance
- Return/Double-Edge/Superpower
- Waterfall/Superpower
- Aqua Jet

Now that it has a decent bulk, a good attack and a decent speed, boi is ready for its second comeback-on-paper. With one sword dance it gets to +1000 attack, and it has priority to deal with anything faster. Dual stab and aqua jet should be enough until you realize that Normal/water isnt a very good stab combination and ferroseed is there which is why Superpower is in the set, as it OHKOes Ferroseed

+4 252+ Atk Bibarel Superpower vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 370-436 (112.1 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
.
probably's gonna work better on rain since waterfall on rain is stronger than Normal stab so it kinda lets you use superpower without missing the power.
Flaws proably are hard time setting up, forth moveslot syndrome, overreliance on aqua jet, being hard walled by pyukumuku, and most importantly, being outclassed by something with better stats and setup chances

btw pikapika gets +600 spa with light ball, it has surf and espeed from pika-fanservice, but it has only 110 spe

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

Hi, just wanted to pass a hot core I've been using lately and I'm having massive success with it.

This is an Electric Terrain Core. I'm still perfecting a team around it and I may post that later in the month.

Koko is a utility setter and stallbreaker/anti lead.
Raichu has great stats along with Surge Surfer, allowing it to be an effective cleaner and potent revenge killer.
Swoobat is amazingly bulky after switching in and activating electric seed. This is one of my favorite Pokemon to use right now.

the core

Tapu Koko @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- U-turn
- Nature's Madness
- Thunderbolt

Raichu-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Psyshock
- Surf

Swoobat @ Electric Seed
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Air Slash
- Roost

On another note, I'm having huge fun with Liligant (its a great mon as well with QD sets along with great speed and attacking stats.

EDIT: spreads need to be changed I think, swoobat needs speed and koko can have a better spread as well.

 

[Loloartsi]

passing some lava here

--

137/205/100/105/90/98

you guys probably know this buttplugger, mostly probably because of his notorious high attack stat, 205 base attack bypasses even the likes of Regigigas and Slaking. heres a couple of cool sets ive been experimenting on this beast:

Rampardos @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish
- Rock Slide
- Superpower / Earthquake

This set was adopted from the infamous dual dance primal groudon in ubers. I was looking for dual dance users in TS and ofc rampardos came to my head. The concept is pretty simple, click SD vs stall and RP vs offense. Rampardos really likes quag being gone since it was a near-hard counter to this thing. The biggest problems to this set is getting the boost since its still frail for a tier like TS and pyukumuku. Rock slide is optimal imo since its nearly equal in BP to stone edge and more accurate. Superpower isnt optimal but u need it desperately for steels and for ursaring too cause rock slide doesnt kill. U can probably try something like EQ for it though. The spread is for maximum damage output and lets u still outrun base 90s (i have no idea how common they are though lol).

Rampardos @ Rockium Z
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake

A theoretical set that lets you spank pyukumuku. +2 z edge will always kill even max defense pyuku: +2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 448-528 (113.7 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Although I havent even tried it yet and I have no idea how good it is, it actually looks a lot better than the set above. While stone edge is a shaky stab and is not as strong as a LO sheer force rock slide, the z move lets you score a lot of important kos. You can afford eq on this set now since z edge kills ursaring anyway. The spread is same as above.


lmk what you guys think :D