Metagame Tier Shift

G-Luke

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OK guys, so from Tournaments to Ladder play, I think I have come to grasp the immediate threats that are running around in the tier.

The Item Eviolite will be banned from this day forward. The effect this item has on the metagame is extremely profound, centralising the metagame to be based entirely around bulky Balance builds, and forcing teams to carry multiple Knock Off users to have a chance at breaking defensive cores. Threats like Dusclops and Type: Null or near impossible to break through, forcing teams to always carry 1 or more Fighting / Dark types, limiting team structures. Tagging The Immortal to implement this.
 
Aw man, no more spamming NFEs on ladder :(

Things I think will be even better after Eviolite ban:
falinks.png

Why switch out ever? Once given the opportunity to set up with No Retreat, this thing becomes almost unstoppable, with amazing stats all around and amazing coverage in Throat Chop, Poison Jab, Iron Head, and Zen Headbutt, dealing massive damage to its would-be checks. Before the Eviolite ban, things like Toxapex and Dusclops could live a hit and get off a Scald a Will-o-Wisp burn, completely stopping any attempted sweeping, but now that Eviolite's gone, these things will have more trouble living a hit. However, Falinks still has to carefully choose its coverage (lose to Dusclops without Throat Chop, lose to Togetic without Poison Jab/Iron Head, and lose to Mareanie without Zen Headbutt), but expect more physically defensive sets in the future.

arctozolt.png
arctovish.png

I didn't see a lot of these on ladder, mostly due to our good friend Ferroseed walling both of them, only taking 20-30% from Fishous Rend/Bolt Beak. I predict that Arctozolt will have more usage mainly because it doesn't have to rely on Freeze-Dry to hit Water-types, unless Palpitoad or Quagsire become popular.

Generally, more offensive teams look a lot stronger now. Maybe we'll see more HO screens or webs
 
So I was thinking about using Rillaboom on a team, as of its surprise success so far in OU, and of course paired up with an Unburden Pokemon.

Hopefully we can see Sceptile appear in the DLC soon, as it and Hawlucha are the only Sword Dance users with Unburden.
On the Special side of things, Thievul and Liepard are 2 only Unburden users with Nasty Plot. Their Special Movepools are worse than what you would expect, but they have at least better stats in Tier Shift.

I was wondering you guys would even recommend using Thievul, or Hawlucha with Rillaboom.
Thievul has almost as bad coverage as Unown, but having 70/98/132 bulk, 130 Spe, and 127 SpA seems like it could make up for it, and having Grassy Seed means that it will have +1 Def means that it's easier to set up with. Combine that with the fact that having so much speed allows it to put more EVs into bulk and how the Meta has stronger threats too.
But on the other hand, Hawlucha actually has a good movepool and a far better typing.
Also, could you recommend their Speed EVs as well?
Edit: After some consideration, I thought about using 96 Speed EVs and Modest on Thievul.
With Unburden, Thievul will outspeed Modest Ludicolo on Rain.
But still suggest spreads if you would like please.
 
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I was going to talk about Munchlax and Dusclops next but looks like their gone...

:dusknoir: PU
New Stats: 45/140/175/105/175/85
High defenses but low HP, not sure what to think about this one.

:Ninjask: PU
New Stats: 61/130/85/90/90/200
Highest base Speed in the game, and it has Speed Boost, so guranteed to outspeed anything. Aside from that though, it’s rather mediocre. It’s Attack isn’t that good, and it’s Defences are lacking.

:Wobbuffet: PU
New Stats: 190/73/98/73/98/73
It’s defences got a nice boost, and it’s HP is still spectacular. It’s movepool is rather sad though.
 
Out of curiosity, how does Wishiwashi work under these rules? Are the stat changes only effective on its base form, or is its schooling form affected as well?
9DF3ADCB-7744-48C4-A604-4170CFAA3E4C.jpeg

Yes it does.
Some forms are “attached” to a Pokemon when tiering and others are not.
Attached forms include things like Aegislash-Blade, Darmamitan-Zen, and Wishiwashi-S.
While detached forms include Shaymin-Sky, Deoxys-A, Mega Evolutions, and Silvally forms.
 
BL KNIGHTS SUPPORT POST
I am writing this post in support of the brave knights that were unjustly shafted by the Tier Shift system.

More seriously, I wanted to start some discussion about this rule
A: BLs are counted as the tier above them. So, BL gets no boosts, BL2 gets +10, etc. Logic is that why would they get boosts for the tier they can't be in?
I think there is a misunderstanding in this rule on how the Smogon tiering system works.

  • BL are not their own tiers, and they are an extension of a tier below them, not above.
Smogon tiers are determined by usage, as we all know. The BLs are banlists that exist to make the tiers more balanced, but as a result they aren't determined by an objective factor like usage, but by the "whims" of the tier leaders and the playerbase who determine a threat that is too dangerous must be removed to make the tier better. Furthermore, a Pokémon in a BL is subject at any time, under the same "whims" of the playerbase, to be "freed" back to the tier it was originally banned from. The same can't happen for a Pokémon that resides in a different tier; the players must wait for usage to drop in order to use that Pokémon in their tier; even if they determined that it would be a good addition to the tier they would have to wait for the usage to drop, which may never happen. Furthermore, BL Pokémon also can't move up on the whims of the playerbase, but only if they actually get more usage. Therefore, one can consider a BL as a "vault" where dangerous Pokémon are stored away and can be pulled out of at discretion of the tier leader.
  • Tier Shift currently treats BL Pokémon as part of a tier they don't actually belong to.
As an extension of the above point, the current rule states that BL Pokémon don't get UU boosts because they are not playable in UU. I feel this looks at the metagame from the wrong perspective. Tier Shift is not based on UU, it is based on OU, and from an OU perspective UUBL Pokémon are UU by usage. The current rule fails to acknowledge that UUBL Pokémon are not truly "overused" which is often a result of lackluster viability, and therefore I think it kind of conflicts with the goal of Tier Shift of making lower tier tier Pokémon more viable. Another effect of this rule is that a sudden ban of a low tier Pokémon can destroy its viability in Tier Shift, even if nothing changed to make its performance in standard OU or even in standard lower tiers above the ones it got banned from any better (whereas a tier rise would reflect that it actually became good in OU as a result of a buff or new trends); likewise a tier drop followed by a quickban would fail to reflect the worsening standard metagame performance of the Pokémon in Tier Shift.

  • But BL Pokémon are stronger than the Pokémon in the tier below, aren't they?
Generally this is true, which might make giving them the same boosts seem an inadequate option. But, in the same vein, they are weaker than the Pokémon in the tier above, which makes giving them the same lesser boosts, or even no boosts in the case of UUBL, similarly inadequate. A good compromise I think is giving them an intermediate boost (+5 in UUBL, +15 in RUBL, +25 in NUBL, +35 in PUBL), in order to address the power disparities with both the above and the below tier.

But in general, as long as BLs are not treated as an extension of the tier above, which they clearly are not, I would be satisfied, I don't have a strong preference for same boosts as below or intermediate. Intermediate is probably better for the balance of the tier but same boosts is simpler.
 
So I did eventually make a team featuring Rillaboom and Unburden and here’s what I eventually got.
https://pokepast.es/1d9a9169d76e79db

Rillaboom is offensive support. A Woodhammer with Choice Band+Grassy Terrain hits REALLY hard. Something short of a bulk resist will have a huge chunk of their health missing. The lack of Eviolite helps as Rillaboom doesn’t really want to fight Ferroseed. Even before Eviolite was implemented, Knock Off and U-turn were great utility for Rillaboom to avoid Ferroseed stacking hazards up. They are still amazing moves you should use when you see your opponent has a check to Rillaboom. Removing Leftovers on a wall for your teammates to choke out is always great, and U-turning into your teammates can provide a safe way for them to come in against faster Pokemon, providing appreciated healing.

Thievul was a surprise to me with how excellent of a job it does with clean up and it somehow worked out better than I expect.
Granted, it still has problems. Even if it outspeed Modest Ludicolo in Rain, a Scald in Rain still deal a huge chuck of damage despite its good Special Bulk, and despite being Modest, Thievul will sometimes leave the opponent with 5% HP and then hit it hard right after. However, the most surprising bit was that +1 Def allows Thievul to survive Beartic’s STAB Icicle Crash, and not just barely either.
252 Atk Life Orb Beartic Icicle Crash vs. +1 160 HP / 0 Def Thievul: 152-179 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO (Adjusted for TS stats)
Yeah, something with the same Atk as Zacian-C and holding a Life Orb could only do barely over half to Thievul of all Pokemon, and then Thievul was able to just heal 1/16th of its health due to Grass Terrain. As long as its teammates can weaken the opponent’s team well enough, then it will almost be a free sweep.

Stonjourner is pretty excellent as a suicide lead. Being part Rock, and having an attack greater than Slaking, and its coverage helps it keep rocks on the field and scares off the Flying type defoggers. Unfortunately, no Explosion or Memento to pull of tactics Lead Excadrill uses like Steel Beam.

A fast Steel type is one of the Pokemon I wanted to put on my team. Dugtrio-A’s main role is to weaken Fairy types, catch fast electrics like Manectric, Jolteon, and Boltund, and put a dent into anything else it can. Despite the 35 HP, it’s bulk is still respectable for how fast and how hard it hits. Having 140 Speed will let it outspeed most of the Meta, with the exception of a few Pokemon that it either resists or is immune to their STABs, and Pokemon with speed abilities.

This pony is one of the most underrated Pokemon in Tier Shift. Recently having dropped to PU, it’s a most wall breaker and even faster than Digtrio-A. The main reason why I pick Rapidash-G is because it’s a Dark type killer, something Thievul will appreciate not seeing when it sweeps. It’s speed is only matched by Persian-A for Dark types, and has the coverage to hit every Dark type super effectively.
Not only is it the perfect Dark type killer, but it also is an amazing Wallbreaker. Swords Dance+140 Atk+good bulk+Life Orb+good coverage is going to put a world of hurt into really anything. It’s only weakness is that it can be burned, it doesn’t use 100% accuracy moves, and it’s still not the fastest thing in the tier, so a Scarfer or fast Electric type can revenge kill it.

Honestly my team just needed another Special Attacker since otherwise it can be cheesed by Dubwool pretty hard. But Specs Toxicroak is still pretty good. Most people suspect it to be Swords Dance and send in a Ghost or Physical Wall, but a Specs Boosted Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, and Sludge Wave/Bomb would paint a whole new story for them. And despite being against strategies that won’t work in best of 3s, Toxicroak is still good as a special attacker thanks in part by it helping Dugtrio and Rapidash do their jobs. But this is probably the Pokemon you could replace with something better.
 
Are there still plans to ban eviolite? It seems pretty rampant at the moment, and the first page gives the impression that it was already gone.
 

Tuthur1

-log10([H+])
is a Pre-Contributor
Are there still plans to ban eviolite? It seems pretty rampant at the moment, and the first page gives the impression that it was already gone.
OK guys, so from Tournaments to Ladder play, I think I have come to grasp the immediate threats that are running around in the tier.

The Item Eviolite will be banned from this day forward. The effect this item has on the metagame is extremely profound, centralising the metagame to be based entirely around bulky Balance builds, and forcing teams to carry multiple Knock Off users to have a chance at breaking defensive cores. Threats like Dusclops and Type: Null or near impossible to break through, forcing teams to always carry 1 or more Fighting / Dark types, limiting team structures. Tagging The Immortal to implement this.
 
Are there still plans to ban eviolite? It seems pretty rampant at the moment, and the first page gives the impression that it was already gone.
Eviolite is banned, but it’s not implemented yet.
If you want, wait until it is implemented by testing out with Pokemon holding Eviolite.
 
Did the june usage based tier updates go into effect yet for tier shift?

ex is manectric(145) faster than rapidash(135-145) now?


I didn't take regional forms having different tiering into account(only rapidash galar dropped), oops!
 
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Did the june usage based tier updates go into effect yet for tier shift?

ex is manectric(145) faster than rapidash(135-145) now?


I didn't take regional forms having different tiering into account(only rapidash galar dropped), oops!
They are properly implemented in the meta, and if you use the command /ts [Pokemon] or /dt [Pokemon], ts inside the Other Meta Room, you can see the Pokemon’s stats and their correct tiers.
 
The Item Eviolite will be banned from this day forward. The effect this item has on the metagame is extremely profound, centralising the metagame to be based entirely around bulky Balance builds, and forcing teams to carry multiple Knock Off users to have a chance at breaking defensive cores.
I knew this day would come. Evio in tier shift always leads to nigh unbreakable teams and Knock Off abuse like crazy.
 
Hey so I got a crazy idea what if we allowed ubers but gave them a negative modifier instead. I think it would need to be more than -10 tho, maybe -20 or -30?
I don't think this would necessarily work the way you expect. Different Pokémon are Ubers for different reasons, you know? Not everything would be "fair" with just lower stats, let alone with stats lowered by the same amount. And for that matter, many Pokémon that are banned to Ubers aren't Ubers by usage - you're working with a much wider range of power levels here than just a regular tier, since Ubers is a banlist first and foremost.
But even then, something like, say, Zacian-C getting -20 all would still be 92/150/95/60/95/128 and would still have an Ability that effectively counts as a Choice Band without a Choice lock, on top of one of the best offensive and defensive type combinations in the game, all of the best STABs of its types, Swords Dance and all of the coverage it could want - and it's not even frail! Something like this absolutely wouldn't be healthy even with a nerf like that; it has more going in its favor than just stats, and the stats it does have are still incredible even after a tier shift.
I can't imagine this being at all feasible in a uniform way like it is for the other tiers. It just seems to me like it's way outside of the scope of Tier Shift; sorry to disappoint, but those are my two cents.
 
I don't think this would necessarily work the way you expect. Different Pokémon are Ubers for different reasons, you know? Not everything would be "fair" with just lower stats, let alone with stats lowered by the same amount. And for that matter, many Pokémon that are banned to Ubers aren't Ubers by usage - you're working with a much wider range of power levels here than just a regular tier, since Ubers is a banlist first and foremost.
But even then, something like, say, Zacian-C getting -20 all would still be 92/150/95/60/95/128 and would still have an Ability that effectively counts as a Choice Band without a Choice lock, on top of one of the best offensive and defensive type combinations in the game, all of the best STABs of its types, Swords Dance and all of the coverage it could want - and it's not even frail! Something like this absolutely wouldn't be healthy even with a nerf like that; it has more going in its favor than just stats, and the stats it does have are still incredible even after a tier shift.
I can't imagine this being at all feasible in a uniform way like it is for the other tiers. It just seems to me like it's way outside of the scope of Tier Shift; sorry to disappoint, but those are my two cents.
Tbf, the same logic doesn’t really apply to some bottom tier Pokemon either.
Some Pokemon are flat out bad because of their movepools, abilities, or how their stats are distributed.
Also Zacian-C isn’t far behind something like Rapidash-G if you subtract 20 from its Stats
92/150/95/60/95/128 vs 60/140/110/120/120/145 is very comparable. Several other PU Pokemon just have Uber Stats as well.

But I still agree. Pokemon like STAGoth and Necrozma would definitely still be too much, even when subtracting some of their Stats, simply because they are mostly broken for reasons other than their stats.
And hey, having Pokemon that are still bad after a stat boost of 40 to all non-HP stats is better than Pokemon that are still broken with -20 in non-HP stats.
 
Tbf, the same logic doesn’t really apply to some bottom tier Pokemon either.
Some Pokemon are flat out bad because of their movepools, abilities, or how their stats are distributed.
Also Zacian-C isn’t far behind something like Rapidash-G if you subtract 20 from its Stats
92/150/95/60/95/128 vs 60/140/110/120/120/145 is very comparable. Several other PU Pokemon just have Uber Stats as well.

But I still agree. Pokemon like STAGoth and Necrozma would definitely still be too much, even when subtracting some of their Stats, simply because they are mostly broken for reasons other than their stats.
And hey, having Pokemon that are still bad after a stat boost of 40 to all non-HP stats is better than Pokemon that are still broken with -20 in non-HP stats.
True! The main thing is just that very last point: Tier Shift was never going to make every Pokémon equally viable, but there's less to lose by trying and failing to buff something than by trying and failing to nerf something - something that doesn't make its way up to an appropriate power level just doesn't get used, so it's a non-issue, while something that doesn't make its way down can overwhelm the entire meta and actually be a problem, which is especially bad in a meta that's meant to give low-tier Pokémon the spotlight.
(And yeah, the main thing about Zacian-C was that it had those stats on top of everything else going for it - Intrepid Sword and a much better type combination are both massive advantages over Rapidash, for example - although that's a very good point, and Rapidash's stats are much closer than I realized!)
 
A few thoughts:
1. The 425 speed tier is very important in this Metagame with only a few Pokemon reaching it Pokemon over such a tier should be looked at.
2. The moves Bolt Beak and Fishous Rend are more of the problem then the Pokemon they are on.
3. While Light ball is strong with the option of strong Intimidate cores such as Mawile and Hitmontop, Pikachu is pretty balanced
4. Sandaconda is a premier wall/coil threat and forces a build to have a breaker specifically for it.
 
:dubwool:(72/110/130/90/120/118)
Dubwool‘s looking like it could be quite scary. I'm new to this metagame, but 72/110/120 bulk backed up by Fluffy doesn't seem too bad. Plus, if you go for an attacking set, 110 ATK can still pack a punch.

Dubwool @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Body Press
- Cotton Guard
- Double-Edge / Bounce / Thunder Wave / Body Slam / Sleep Talk / Wild Charge

This is my preferred Dubwool set. There's probably a better item out there for it than Leftovers, but it nets some consistent recovery and helps it stay alive while sleeping. Generally you want to click Cotton Guard no matter what first turn, as it makes Dubwool insanely hard to crack by physical attackers. After that, you can usually get a safe Rest and not be taken down during the two turns of sleep. Body Press takes advantage of Cotton Guard to dish out pretty good damage. The fourth move is really up to preference on this set. Double-Edge or Body Slam provide nice STAB but you'll be clicking Body Press most of the time anyway thanks to Cotton Guard. Bounce or Wild Charge make sure you're not 100% walled by Ghosts. Thunder Wave can spread some status to slow down threats or read a predicted Ghost switch-in to Body Press. Sleep Talk usually isn't necessary as it's calling useless moves a lot of the time after you've gotten 2 Cotton Guards off, but it does make you less vulnerable.
You know, if one doesn't want to get walled by Ghost types, they can just use Payback. I use it all the time, and it works well for the fragile ghosts. But then again, I tend to use SD to make Payback more powerful anyway.
 
With Eviolite banned shouldn't the HP nerf be reversed?
HP was never ‘nerfed’. Furthermore, the HP was not buffed even in Gen 7. That’s just how the meta works.

Anyways, I feel like ts right now is pretty underwhelming compared to ts7. Though there are new interesting options in Stonjourner, Arctodragons, Galarian Rapidash, sir Galarian mime etc, Tier Shift was just a better experience in Gen7 due to more Pokemon existing so there’s a lot of options for ‘bad’ mons working here. With the upcoming DLC(s) here’s some mons that could have good potential:

:kingdra: Forgot what tier it was last gen, if this get placed in NU it could be a pretty powerful specs mon (go no damp rock rain) and still be very bulky all around. prob lands in RU but is still not bad. It also quad resists Fishious Rend from Arctovish and Stonjourner won’t try to switch in.

:lycanroc: Last gen it was PU and I loved SD z move with priority it just puts in so much work. My speculations are NU this gen but it still has like 145 atk and 145 speed to work with. Losing z moves hurts a lot tho.

:regirock: Prob NU or PU, also idk if it’s released this month or in fall. Could be a good rocker and a physical sponge, while it also has 140 special defense if its PU.

:regice: idk prob similar to regirock but this has a new toy in boots and weakness policy rock polish could be fire as it tanks at least a hit from Stonjourner and stuff

:nidoking: is prob UU we don’t talk about that

:dedenne: idk don’t think there’s much usage here or anywhere

:walrein: Cool fat mon blessed with boots this gen, prob not good as Stonjourner and Arctozolt exists

:electivire: It’s strong af and idk how it’s PU last gen, wait i don’t think i seen that much in ts7 but nvm I assume that it would be a great mixed attacker like what Pika does rn and prob replace Raichu too..?

:cryogonal: I loved this last gen as it has 175 SpD and Rapid Spin and Recover, and now the last thing it needs is here: boots (again). Excellent special tank and hazards control, and still has like 135 SpA. (don’t judge on these numbers it’s all subject to change depending on their tiers)

:talonflame: idk but boots (again again) helps a lot with Gale Wings, it wasn’t that good last gen

:absol: :luxray: Really strong wallbreakers, though not very fast idk

:scyther: Strong with 145 Attack and Technician and is blazing fast, I think it would be NU so 135 but still strong like last gen

:druddigon: idk, NU ig and 150 Attack is not bad. also has Mold Breaker and Rocks and Glare, pretty good team support

:exploud: I don’t think i’ve seen it in ts, Specs Boomburst is strong tho, I think would be NU

:poliwrath: Could see some use in Bulk Up Circle Throw, great bulk overall

:tangela: rip Eviolite but is still really annoying in Regenerator Leech Seed and such.

:mienshao: prob RU so wouldn’t receive much boosts, but a good offensive pivot which does a bunch to common walls like Ferroseed

:dragalge: prob not much use, sets toxic spikes and nice special defense and ok SpA ig

That’s all for this post, just quick thoughts on the upcoming meta shifts, thanks for reading
 
HP was never ‘nerfed’. Furthermore, the HP was not buffed even in Gen 7. That’s just how the meta works.
hp was nerfed from its boost during gen 7. don't mince words like that
(for something slightly more constructive the regis are this fall; my instinct is that they are ru-nu due to less power level but its hard toreally predict)
 

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