To what degree do we really have free will?

This is something I've been pondering for a while, and I think it could make for an interesting discussion. I believe that the free will we tend to assume we naturally have actually has many limitations placed upon it by our society, though I'm not saying these limitations are necessarily a bad thing; in fact many of them work out for the greater good.

What do you guys think?
 
In a Universe described accurately and precisely by mathematical laws - whether definite or probabilistic in nature - there can be no 'choice'. Free will is an illusion.

That does not, however, mean that our actions are predetermined, at least not in the way people normally mean by 'predetermined'. For even without the influence of quantum mechanics, there is no certain way of predicting the behaviour of a person. It has been suggested that it is impossible to predict the future behaviour of the observable Universe faster than the Universe itself 'runs'. (Of course we can make predictions of parts of it, but those predictions are approximations, that become decreasingly accurate. Even in the seemingly clockwork field of celestial mechanics, we have no idea what the arrangement of the planets in the solar system will be a million years from now.)

Also, I'm sure I cannot be alone in having had the experience of walking straight past a building I had planned to enter. In particular, if it involves a deviation from a regularly traveled route. That's a direct demonstration of our free will, be it illusory or real, failing us, as we end up in a sort of autopilot.
 
That does not, however, mean that our actions are predetermined, at least not in the way people normally mean by 'predetermined'. For even without the influence of quantum mechanics, there is no certain way of predicting the behaviour of a person.

Why not?

Also, the scale of biological molecules is relatively large and quantum effects don't play any significant role in understanding human biology. So even with quantum effects taken into consideration, it should be possible to make predictions with a very high degree of certainty, about as certain as we are with any other macroscopic physical predictions.
 
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Free will really doesn't exist. From when you were born your behavior and how you act essentially sets how you will live in result of events that you cannot predict or control.
 
our biology determines our nature and that determines, along with past experience (and biology affects how we remember/experience that even), how we will react in any given situation. I think that once we understand how personality or consciousness manifests we will understand the nature of the "choices" we have before us and why we lean more towards one or the other. Most anything can be boiled down to biochemistry at the very least, we just don't know how do to that.

Colin, I quite liked your post there.

Also, as an aside, this is a crutch for faith. At least when I debated with a pastor at one point, all the good points I made were nullified by his "free will" ideals.
 
I don't think free will is really limited. We limit the extent of our own actions because we know the consequences. Technically, there is no limit on your actions except the ones you place.

An individual can do whatever the hell they want to, but their decisions will have consequences. Predetermination is far removed from the truth. Life is all about choices. Each and every action performed by an individual was preceded by thought.
 
I've never seen a strong justification as to why free will and predeterminism are mutually exclusive. Free will is the ability to choose - I see no reason why that can't co-exist with the idea that everything is predetermined.

Also, I believe basically everyone implicitly believes in the existence of free will, even intelligent individuals who recognize that the universe is predetermined. When deciding which college to go to, you ask yourself, "Which do I want to go to?", not "The universe is predetermined, so I don't have a say in the matter anyways."

This philosophical discussion on the existence of free will is kind of missing the real point of the thread, though.
 
The minimal difference between determinism and non-determinism is a single random input. Since all uses of randomness involve exploiting some of its statistical properties, which can be approximated to an arbitrary precision by pseudo-randomness, I would argue that no meaningful concept can depend on whether determinism is the case or not. That is, free will is either compatible with determinism or it is, at best, meaningless, at worst, incoherent.

In fact, I could easily argue that if our actions are not determined, then we have no free will. Indeed, if our actions are not determined, it ensues that if I did something and time was rewound, there is a chance that I would do something else. But do you realize how incredibly demeaning that is? If I do something, I'm doing it for a reason, I am committing to it. If time is rewound, I expect to do exactly the same thing. All the time. Or how the fuck could I meaningfully say I choose to do anything? How could I say I have free will if somebody could just rewind time over and over again until I do what he wants me to do? There should be a maximally deterministic correspondence between my nature (say, my brain) and my behavior - anything short of that is demeaning.

Here is another, more formal argument:

a) If I do X, I either chose to do X or I didn't
b) If I choose to do X, it can either be for no reason at all, or for a reason.
c) If I do X for a reason, then I either chose that reason or I didn't
d) If I chose my reason to do X, it can either be for no reason at all, or for a reason
e) Go to c)

If you want to stop that infinite regress, you only have a handful of options:

1) You did X but it was not your choice
2) You chose to do X for no reason at all (for all intents and purposes, that means you chose randomly)
3) You chose to do X for a reason which you ultimately did not choose (arguably, you could say that entails that you did not choose to do X)
4) You chose to do X for a reason which you ultimately chose for no reason (which, again, means your choice was ultimately random)

Unfortunately, it appears that these are the only options. Essentially, what this should teach you is that free will, as most of us naively understand it, is not only false, but impossible. If you want to conclude that free will necessarily does not exist, I have no problem with that. Otherwise, any meaningful definition of free will has to describe a particular process, with no preconditions on whether it is deterministic or not.
 
Indeed, if our actions are not determined, it ensues that if I did something and time was rewound, there is a chance that I would do something else.
Not really. If we are rewinding time that means that the event has already happened. Just because we cannot change the past, does not mean we do not have free will. If you rewound time, the same thing would happen because it has already happened and the grandfather parodox says we cannot change it.

Some of you are talking about the universe like scientists understand it. We do not yet understand the universe we live in. There are theories, but theories are not fact. Ever. There was a theory the world was flat and that was considered by alot of people to be fact. But it was a theory because there was no proof. Theories on the universe are a dime a dozen, but most likely they will be proved false. So don't instantly believe a theory just because it makes sense.
 
Why not?

Also, the scale of biological molecules is relatively large and quantum effects don't play any significant role in understanding human biology. So even with quantum effects taken into consideration, it should be possible to make predictions with a very high degree of certainty, about as certain as we are with any other macroscopic physical predictions.
Chaos theory, and inability to make the relevant observations. (To do a mechanistic prediction, using basic physics, you have to take into account both every aspect of the environment, and the electrical and chemical state of the brain). Also, it's reckoned it may never be possible to predict the behaviour of every person in every circumstance when they know the predictions - essentially, no 'equilibrium' exists.

I have no definite proof, but I think it's unlikely to be possible to predict human behaviour with 100% accuracy. Of course, making a very good, but not perfect, prediction, is another matter altogether, and is certainly possible for reasonably short time periods.

I don't think free will is really limited. We limit the extent of our own actions because we know the consequences. Technically, there is no limit on your actions except the ones you place.
This is something that came up in the evil and a Christian God thread. Our 'free will' is limited - those limits are what we call the laws of nature. For example, you cannot jump 300 feet up unaided, no matter how much you 'free will' yourself to do it.

Each and every action performed by an individual was preceded by thought
Untrue. When you walk down the street, you don't think about every muscle movement, every step taken. They're handled automatically. Thought can then come at a 'higher level', for example choosing where to go. But even then, as I already mentioned, navigation can end up 'automatic', and one only notices if it goes wrong. Avoiding people in crowds is another example of an action that is taken without thought - and significantly, one that is only necessary in certain societies, unlike the basics of locomotion. (If you live your life in a small village you may never have to negotiate a crowd; it seems a reasonable assumption such people would have greater difficulty in crowds).

Free will is the ability to choose - I see no reason why that can't co-exist with the idea that everything is predetermined.
If everything is predetermined, there is only ever one thing that can happen in a given situation, only one future for every present. There is no choice.
How can you have 'free will' without choice?

Perhaps the experience of free will comes from our brains being stateful; by us having a memory. Our actions in any situations are determined not merely by the external environment at that moment, but by the state of our brains, which itself depends on the aggregation of all external environmental influences since (and even before) their formation, whether consciously perceived or not.
Indeed, I might even define 'apparent free will' as the ability to take different actions when placed more than once in an identical environment. ('Apparent' is here meant in both the sense of 'apparent to an observer' as well as the sense opposed to 'true').
Logically and philosophically, of course, the distinction between 'external environment' and 'internal state' is dubious. But I'm thinking more from a psychological point of view - why do we experience free will; what aspects of our physiology are required to produce that experience? I think memory is surely one of them. Probably not the only one - there are non-living systems that exhibit memory, like the one in front of my desk now. Though it could be a matter of complexity. Computers are supposed to be deterministic, yet they frequently behave unexpectedly. Agencies with free will also behave unexpectedly (both observationally and by my definition). It does not, of course, follow that computers must have free will, but their behaviour is perhaps consistent with the slightest beginnings of free will. Of course, 'free will' is not desired in most computer systems. If it is arising, even slightly, in software where humans apply a powerful selection pressure against it, that may indicate a level of universality - most sufficiently complex system with some sort of memory will exhibit apparent free will.

/rambling
 
I know this strays from the actual question a bit, but ... it matters not whether we have free will or not. If we assume that we do not, then why should we punish crime? The criminals didn't have a choice if free will in nonexistant. As such, we must assume that free will exists, at least to some degree.
 
We should punish crime so they don't run rampant. It is because of their behavior and reaction to events that they ended up in jail.
 
We punish crime as both a deterrent to others and, in the case of prison, to make sure that the perpitrator cannot do more harm to others. Let's assume that a person commited a malicous crime for purely selfish reasons (i.e. no 'self defense' or whatever). We have two options:
A) They had 'free will' and chose to do so. They are therefore potentialy dangerous and need rehabilitation or isolation from society in order to prevent further harm.
B) They were programmed to commit the crime. They are therefore potentialy dangerous and need rehabilitation or isolation from society in order to prevent further harm.
See the difference in conclusions? There is none.
Whether they had a choice or not in the matter is not important unless you want 'bad people' in prison because you want to see them suffer. I assume that you don't think criminal law is soley for the purpose of revenge.

Back to the question asserted in the topic, I cannot see where we can have free will. In the specific, one of a kind situation that is X, let's say I take course of action Y. I could've (well, at least physically) taken action Z, but I decided against it. Were the exact same situation to happen again (and let's assume I got amnesia or something which made me forget about everything since the exact moment of event X, and so the situations are identical), why would I ever do anything but option Y?
I know very little of quantum mechanics, but right now I assume the only relevance it has is the fact that it adds a random aspect to a situation. I don't see what this proves at all. If an atom is here instead of there, then:
A) the two situations are not the same, I might make a different decision
B) in the vast majority of cases, what difference does it make?
C) something random happens, is that my choice? Uh, no.

This leads me to the conclusion that all of our actions are pre-determined, and we will always take the same course of action in identical situations. However, random chance can effect these situations and therefore outcomes can be different. Therefore, we have no free will, but this does not mean everything in the universe is predictable, just that we are.
 
I've ran into too many philosophical regarding this, and all I can say is that we do have free will. Some questions I consider are;

1. Are we free?
2. If so, why am I asking myself such question?
3. What purpose would my "commander" have to give me such doubts?

For the last question, you could say it's to give us the fake idea that we are of free will, but that would defeat the point of doing it in a first place; we could be ordered into not ever pondering about free will.

So I believe, to even a certain(?) extent, we're of free will.

Oh and also I might point that this isn't taking into consideration the psyche, as in, the being of the at the moment, the place, and ... everything. Even subtle objects in the ambient, a noise, whatever. And also our past experiences and what has "made" us into how we are.

Some of you are talking about the universe like scientists understand it. We do not yet understand the universe we live in. There are theories, but theories are not fact. Ever. There was a theory the world was flat and that was considered by alot of people to be fact. But it was a theory because there was no proof. Theories on the universe are a dime a dozen, but most likely they will be proved false. So don't instantly believe a theory just because it makes sense.
Also adding that I agree with this, and I think this is the main reason why I decided to approach this with philosophy rather than science. (I do believe both of those are extremely, closely related, though. Just that science is completely factual and thus should be infallible.)
 
Not really. If we are rewinding time that means that the event has already happened. Just because we cannot change the past, does not mean we do not have free will. If you rewound time, the same thing would happen because it has already happened and the grandfather parodox says we cannot change it.

I mean rewinding time in a "re-enactment" kind of way. Imagine that you save the position and momentum of every particle in the universe, and "rewinding" is just the act of erasing the universe and replacing it with the one we saved. It's like a backup/restore. If the universe is not deterministic, then we expect that it will resume functioning slightly differently.

Some of you are talking about the universe like scientists understand it. We do not yet understand the universe we live in. There are theories, but theories are not fact. Ever. There was a theory the world was flat and that was considered by alot of people to be fact. But it was a theory because there was no proof. Theories on the universe are a dime a dozen, but most likely they will be proved false. So don't instantly believe a theory just because it makes sense.

So theories cannot correspond to reality? That is an odd claim to make. One would imagine that they could, if only by chance.

If everything is predetermined, there is only ever one thing that can happen in a given situation, only one future for every present. There is no choice.

Ehhh... it's not clear. The problem is that when we say "X has a choice", X might not at all be the kind of thing we think it is. That is, if we were to take a snapshot of the universe at a given moment and define some aggregate of molecules as "you", I believe we would be making a categorical mistake.

Consider for a second that "X" is a set of things. For instance, the set of all actual and conceivable dogs. We can define "X can do Y" as meaning the following: "There exists an element x of X such that if x obtains then x does Y". For instance, "dogs can bark" means that we can imagine a dog that would bark if it existed. Now let's define "X does Y" as meaning "There exists an element x of X such that x obtains and x does Y". Thus, "dogs do bark" if there exists a dog that barks. Now, we can define "X can choose Y" as "X can do Y and X can do ~Y" ("~Y" meaning "not Y"), and "X chooses Y" as "X can choose Y and X does Y".

Now, what if "you" were a set, very much like the set of all dogs? I mean, think about it - most people would consider that they are the same person as they were one second ago. Yet, their brain changed slightly during that time. Furthermore, if my brain had one more or one less neuron, I would say that it would still be my brain. I would not consider that this would make me a different person. Therefore, it makes sense for me to think that "I" am the set of all Brains that are sufficiently similar to the Brain that currently obtains.

You can see where this is going: when I say "cantab can choose to reply to my post", that means "we can conceive of some cantab which, if he existed, would reply to my post, and we can conceive of some other cantab which, if he existed, would not reply to my post". Of course, what happens next is determined by which cantab actually obtains, but the point is that choice is actually integrating over all conceivable cantabs. By that definition, you are lacking a choice if and only if no conceivable agent performing that choice is one you can identify with. None of the argument remotely relies on determinism or the lack thereof, yet I believe that this is eerily close to how we understand free will.

The concept can be generalized to programs and machines relatively easily. If a machine can conceive of other machines which it can very strongly identify with, to the point that it conflates them with itself, then in any situation it would conceive of acting in many different ways and thus it would feel as if it had free will. It might even see itself as being all these machines at once (I think this is exactly how most humans unconsciously see themselves), like a sort of (illusory) quantum superposition of machines. In that case, it might very well perceive its behavior as nondeterministic.

Indeed, I might even define 'apparent free will' as the ability to take different actions when placed more than once in an identical environment.

The problem with this is that in so far that you don't control how many times you are placed in an identical environment, a devious djinn could simply make you repeat your choices until you choose what he wants you to do. That is, anyone who has free will by that definition can be manipulated to "choose" to do exactly what a sufficiently powerful puppeteer wants. In fact, the definition of free will you state pretty much entails a loss of uniqueness - since nothing about you constrains the choices you can make, there's no way to tell two people apart by their behavior. Everyone is reduced to a random agent. If this experiment was performed, I don't think it would appear like free will.

I know this strays from the actual question a bit, but ... it matters not whether we have free will or not. If we assume that we do not, then why should we punish crime? The criminals didn't have a choice if free will in nonexistant. As such, we must assume that free will exists, at least to some degree.

I don't know about you, but if somebody goes on a murdering rampage, free will is the least of my concerns. I want that fucker out so that I can enjoy life. Without free will, punishment is still a good regulation system for the machines we are. To put it in another way, machines with a justice system will tend to prevail over unruly ones, and free will is a red herring.
 
Honestly, thinking that I don't have free will sort of drives me insane. Yes, biology and nature/nurture indelibly shape humans into their character, a character that influences the kinds of choices they could make, the people they'll spend time with, etc, but ultimately, people can do whatever they want. They may be "coerced" into doing things expected of them simply because of their environment and background, but as Colin stated (and as not so pedantically countered by cantab :p) every action short of automatic occurrence is thought-driven. I'm typing this post because I want to do so, but maybe I was influenced to do so at all because this issue interests me and I am someone who likes to voice their opinion! Either way, in the end it was my will that brought me to typing and blah blah blah.

If I don't have free will someone please tell me to kill myself, BASICALLY. aaaa
 
I agree with Brain, however, there was a post made in another thread by someone who I have forgotten that I really liked. They said that when looking at the brain on the microscale, looking at what the electrons and atoms and things are doing at any given time, asking "what of this is 'free will'?" is pointless. It's like looking at a chair at the same scale, and saying "what of this is the seat?".

The concept of a 'chair' doesn't mean anything at the scale where you're looking at electrostatic repulsion and attraction between a couple of particles of the whole. The 'chair' is only a meaningful concept at the macroscale, where you can see the overall effect of all the atoms together.

Similarly, "free will" is just the name for the overall process that the probabilist/deterministic sub-nanometre particles that make up the cells that make up the synapses and the neurons that make up the brain undergo as a collective unit.
 
I've ran into too many philosophical regarding this, and all I can say is that we do have free will. Some questions I consider are;

1. Are we free?
2. If so, why am I asking myself such question?
3. What purpose would my "commander" have to give me such doubts?

For the last question, you could say it's to give us the fake idea that we are of free will, but that would defeat the point of doing it in a first place; we could be ordered into not ever pondering about free will.

So I believe, to even a certain(?) extent, we're of free will.

Oh and also I might point that this isn't taking into consideration the psyche, as in, the being of the at the moment, the place, and ... everything. Even subtle objects in the ambient, a noise, whatever. And also our past experiences and what has "made" us into how we are.

Also adding that I agree with this, and I think this is the main reason why I decided to approach this with philosophy rather than science. (I do believe both of those are extremely, closely related, though. Just that science is completely factual and thus should be infallible.)

The problem with an analysis of free will, is that there is no way to prove it one way or another. Similar to the existence of a creator, either it exists, or it doesn't exist and pretending that it exists causes us to act the same way as if it did exist.

Just that science is completely factual and thus should be infallible.

You have science and math mixed up, math is can be completely factual, and infallible, assuming that you do it correctly, whereas science has to deal with the real world, and our imperfect understanding of it.
 
I think humans have free will to some degree, for the simple fact we have to make choices, I would expand on this, but I'm pretty lazy/tired/can't be assed with it right now.
 
Depends what you mean by free will. Can we do what we want to do? Yes. But we will always do what we want to do. And what we want to do is predictable and determined by the physical state of our brain.
 
You are born with the ability to do anything within the realm of reality and scientific boundaries. You then give a certain set of rights up for protection that the rights that have not been taken away will be protected. It is more or less a scale of this. Believe me you have the free will to do anything even if the law doesn't allow you. The law is merely don't do x or else y will happen. Free will is taken by threats or for "your own good". Those statements may be true, but all the less "Free will" is taken away. Just remember free will is 100% there is just the threat of having to take responsibility for your action.

You can go kill 500 people if you plan it out as insane people have done and noone may stop you until the deed has been done. You may answer for your actions, but you were still able to take out your free will.

This is coming from a Christian Republican. Free will in my opinion is a gift from God and has become a bargaining chip or more or less a form of currency in a way.
 
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