Topic of the Week #12 - Shielding Moves

Ok, time to end this Topic! Great job this time guys, we really got a lot of good discussion going. First, time to doll out points. The award for Best Poster goes to Nollan for his posts talking about many individual items as well as posting quality responses to other users. Other people who performed wel this tme are Darkmalice, Laga, and BLOOD TOTEM.

Points Breakdown:
+3 - Nollan, Darkmalice
+2 - Laga, BLOOD TOTEM
+1 - Audiosurfer, Ultimathunder, Blankzero, youngjake93

Time for the next Topic of the Week: Sky Drop!
PKBW_Tm-58-Skydrop.jpg


While banned in Generation 5 due to a glitch involving it and Gravity, Sky Drop is now legal in Gen 6thanks to the glitch being fixed. Sky Drop is a move that takes the user and the target into the sky for a turn and then attacks the next turn. For this topic, consider the implications of Sky Drop being in the metagame. Will it see a lot of use? Is it too gimmicky to be viable? If it is viable, what type of teams or scenarios make it worth considering? What are the best user of this move? These questions and more are ll things you could consider addressing in your posts on this topic. Also, when answering, don't forget that this is a discussion project. While sharing your thoughts is great, the importance of providing input on other people's posts can't be stressed enough. No one wants to just read a bunch of mini essays saying the same thing. Good luck :)
 
Yes it is viable :) :) :)

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Sky Drop
- Roost/Protect
- Thunder Wave/Protect
- Extreme Speed

Dragonite has plenty of reason to use Sky Drop with this set. Thunder Wave+Roost is a tactic I have used on Togekiss to provide a lot of staying power, but with Multiscale and Sky Drop stalling it takes survivability to a whole other level. Sky Drop on Dragonite+Protect on your partner can take a threat out of the equation for a while. For example, Protect with Heatran, Sky Drop against Hitmontop, then Substitute with Heatran. Extremespeed is the final piece of the set that makes it really worthwhile imo. Because Dragonite will be on the field for a long time and Sky Drop isn't exactly OHKOing a whole lot, Extreme Speed has a lot of opportunities to pick off weakened opponents.
Alternate spreads could be used with either more bulk>attack or more speed to drop Thunder Wave.

Here is a set I have experience with in singles, but it is pretty much theorymon in doubles since I haven't tried it yet.
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtt / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Sky Drop
- Fire Blast
- Toxic
- Protect/Roost

Toxic stall with Protect/Sky Drop and melt steels with Fire Blast. Charizard can also run this set, just throwing ideas out there for people to try for TotW since all I have used is Dragonite.
 
I'm interested to see more ways to use Sky Drop in double battles to protect other teammates. Dragonite is especially good at doing this because of its bulk, but I wonder if there are also good candidates that can abuse Sky Drop with high speed to ensure that a teammate remains safe.

In almost any case, Sky Drop is one of the weaker flying moves to choose from, and thus it is usually tossed aside for better offensive options. Unless you're using Mega Aerodactyl.

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Sky Drop
- Stone Edge
- Ice Fang/Fire Fang
- Stealth Rock/Taunt

Here's an instance in which Sky Drop is actually powerful enough to be a primary STAB move. Megadactyl's Tough Claws boosts Sky Drop to 90 base power, making it only slightly weaker than stone miss. This also makes Mega Aerodactyl the second strongest user of this move, losing only to the power of banded Rayquaza. Aerodactyl's other flying-type moves include Aerial Ace and Fly, the former being just as powerful as Sky Drop.

It would only be necessary to use Sky Drop on Mega Aerodactyl if given a reason to use it over Aerial Ace though. Giving it teammates to inflict status will allow Aerodactyl to take advantage of the effects of status to deal more damage with each turn. Rotom-W, for example, would make a great teammate because it loves to burn things and pivot, thus allowing Aerodactyl to take advantage the opponent's burns. Using it however you want, it will always be a good stab option for Aerodactyl.

edit: also sandstorm lol
 
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I will have to test and/or see replays before I pass my own judgement on this move, but for now, the theorymonning seems to place it as a good move for Stalling out an opponent/creating free turns/neutralizing threats/pseudo-Protect. In fact, I think fast enough mons with this move will be able to forgo using Protect at all in their movepools, using this move to disrupt strategies indefinitely while remaining safe every turn.

Some interesting things can happen here too. It's only able to be hit by Gust, Hurricane, Sky Uppercut, Smack Down, Thunder, and Twister, a move used by a Pokemon with No Guard (Stone Edge Machamp a thing now?), or if the user had previously been targeted by Mind Reader or Lock-On, which is lol-worthy. Sky Drop will fail if the target is behind a Substitute. This makes SubTran a viable check to this strategy I think. Sky Drop also does not deal any damage if the target is Flying-type or has Levitate, unless they are under the effects of Smack Down, but will pick them up and make them unable to move for one turn. Sky Drop works as normal against a target under the effects of Magnet Rise or Telekinesis. It also fails/ends if Gravity is used.

http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/sky_drop

That page also includes a list of able users, most notably:

Charizard, Aerodactyl, Mew, Dragonite, Zapdos, Thundurus and Tornadus.

Aerodactyl and Tornadus are by far my theoretical favorites by far, having the speed and attack stats to pull it off with aplomb, especially with Tornadus' Defiant. Thundurus could be a decent abuser, but it much prefers Special attacks, and the same applies to Char-Y, who lacks the raw speed to really pull it off well. Mew is a funny user as well, also falling below the preferred high-speed tier.

Edit: what new mons can learn it? Talonflame could SERIOUSLY abuse this move.
 
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I decided to have some fun with Sky Drop
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebanksmogondoublesbeta-69669975

Anyways, Sky Drop combos with moves like Thunder, so it could see use on a rain team alongside Thunder-abusing Pokemon. Same for No Guard Machamp and Doublade. Its stalling also works well with Poison, Burn, and Leech Seed for more residual damage, as well as stalling out your opponent's Tailwind and Trick Room (and pairs poorly with your own Tailwind and Trick Room). Also for cycling through Intimidate users with the non-Sky Drop user to lower your opponents stats whilst preventing your opponent from attacking in the meanwhile.

It's useable on Aerodactyl and Dragonite because they lack any better Flying-type STAB except for Aerial Ace if Sky Drop gels poorly with your team or you really want to hit Flying-types. Could also be used on Thundurus if you wanted a gimmicky physical Defiant attacker.

BlankZero Only Hawlucha and the banned Yveltal
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Sky_Drop_(move)

[EDIT] It would actually be interesting to pair Aerodactyl with No Guard Machamp. If there's a troublesome threat, Sky Drop it with Aerodactyl, deal large damage with No Guard Dynamic Punch, and if it survives when it lands, it only has a 50% chance said turn to attack (and hence pose a threat).
 
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BlankZero said:
I will have to test and/or see replays before I pass my own judgement on this move, but for now, the theorymonning seems to place it as a good move for Stalling out an opponent/creating free turns/neutralizing threats/pseudo-Protect. In fact, I think fast enough mons with this move will be able to forgo using Protect at all in their movepools, using this move to disrupt strategies indefinitely while remaining safe every turn.

Some interesting things can happen here too. It's only able to be hit by Gust, Hurricane, Sky Uppercut, Smack Down, Thunder, and Twister, a move used by a Pokemon with No Guard (Stone Edge Machamp a thing now?), or if the user had previously been targeted by Mind Reader or Lock-On, which is lol-worthy. Sky Drop will fail if the target is behind a Substitute. This makes SubTran a viable check to this strategy I think. Sky Drop also does not deal any damage if the target is Flying-type or has Levitate, unless they are under the effects of Smack Down, but will pick them up and make them unable to move for one turn. Sky Drop works as normal against a target under the effects of Magnet Rise or Telekinesis. It also fails/ends if Gravity is used.

http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/sky_drop

That page also includes a list of able users, most notably:

Charizard, Aerodactyl, Mew, Dragonite, Zapdos, Thundurus and Tornadus.

Aerodactyl and Tornadus are by far my theoretical favorites by far, having the speed and attack stats to pull it off with aplomb, especially with Tornadus' Defiant. Thundurus could be a decent abuser, but it much prefers Special attacks, and the same applies to Char-Y, who lacks the raw speed to really pull it off well. Mew is a funny user as well, also falling below the preferred high-speed tier.

Edit: what new mons can learn it? Talonflame could SERIOUSLY abuse this move.
Click to expand...

Well you can get double targeted on the turn you come down by everything slower, so it isn't "infinite stalling" unless you use TR every other turn with your partner which would be pretty lol-worthy. Also I will edit this post with a few replays of my stall team. Hopefully I can find good ones that featured dnite. I remember trashing Audio and Ace with it in Doubles Games, but they said a big part was surprise factor.

Edit: Oh seems like I forgot to save any Dragonite replays, but I hurried and recreated a pretty great one(after losing to ultima pretty badly with the team I threw together and hurting my ladder rating bc lol testing alts). Also, two of my best stall replays weren't saved properly =[
Bear in mind that the battle itself isn't one to write home about(on both sides tbh), but it nearly perfectly illustrates how well Dragonite's bulk(and Multiscale) and Sky Drop give him the longevity to snipe kills with Extreme Speed while also protecting the partner from harm and putting him in much friendlier 1v1 situations.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebanksmogondoublesbeta-69737505
 
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Aside from on Aerodactyl-Mega, I haven't really seen Sky Drop much, though it is an interesting and potentially very dangerous move. There are a lot of strategies you can pair with Sky Drop in Doubles, and with the right partner / team support, it can really be deadly.

Obviously what makes Sky Drop unique is its mechanics. There is no other move that damages and prevents opponents from attacking for one turn, so in terms of abusing the mechanic, Sky Drop is what you're going to use.

As for the mechanic itself, the 'stun' of a selected opponent for one turn AND the damage (even if weak) is what makes Sky Drop such a legitimate form of offense. In singles, this is evident in that Sky Drop was banned for being too powerful- you could easily stall out your opponent or damage them to death while they could not retaliate. In Doubles, this effect is intensified. No longer is the field 2 v 2; it becomes 1 v 1 for the turn Sky Drop is in effect, and using it at the right moment can net you TONS of momentum. For instance, with a fast Sky Dropper, you can nullify one opponent and use your other Pokemon to take out the remaining foe. This can easily be used in situations where the Pokemon on the field counter each other in succession- you can nullify the counter to your other Pokemon and then use it to take out the remaining partner.

This strategy is perfected by Aerodactyl-Mega in sand, as Branflakes325 pointed out. Aerodactyl is the perfect Pokemon to take advantage of the strategy I explained- it's fast, powerful, and bulky (in Sand.) Pair it with something that covers its counters and you basically have an unbreakable core in which Aero's partner removes its counters and Aero nullifies its partner's counters with Sky Drop.

Unfortunately, aside from Aerodactyl and Dragonite, I feel as if other Sky Drop legal mons are either unviable or have better uses for their moveslots. Still, if you can do it well, Sky Drop can be a very powerful offensive support and attack move.
 
Laga said:
4Qy33ik.png
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Yea what makes Sky Drop unique is that it is like Fake Out and Protect in the same turn although it is not as good in their individual roles due to lack of priority(Talonflame needs to find a way to get this move), predictability and being a sitting duck turn 2 if you leave thigs alive.
Shoving the primary benefits of two of the best moves in Doubles into the same move with a 50% power boost still definitely has its merits though.




Edit:
Just realized that Hawlucha can reach 736 speed without an item and can also hit Heatran and Tyranitar with Close Combat High Jump Kick? who resist Sky Drop and are too heavy to be picked up iirc. This could be a pretty viable user? Possibly outclassed by Mega Aerodactyl, but do you really want to use up your mega slot on it?
Edit2: Sorry nvm Hawlucha sucks
 
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Laga you know what I meant v.v

Fake Out is different in that 1. it's weak 2. Pokemon are immune to it 3. you can only use it when you first come in.

come at me you nub ;P
 
Sky Drop is an interesting move, especially because the silly glitch surrounding it from last gen is fixed.

On paper it looks pretty mediocre, especially if you are coming from a singles mind point. 60 power? Effect that doesn't seem very good? It doesn't seem very good unless you see it in action.

However, its effect is very useful in practice. As my comrade Laga has written a wonderful analysis on, sky drop does work in a way similar to fake out- it prevents the opponent from damaging you wile doing (little) damage. The important part is that the user can evade pretty much all attacks (like protect) and do damage at the same time. It works even better if the opponent is burned/poisoned, so the target of sky drop takes extra chip damage.

Some good examples of users are already posted, such as fast or bulky flying types, including Aerodactyl and Dragonite.
 
I think Sky Drop is definitely a viable move in Doubles. What really sets it apart from Fake Out is that it:
  • Works regardless of whether or not it's the first turn
  • Works on Ghost types
  • Has the potential for SE damage
  • Has a higher Base Power
  • Grants the user Protect-like attack evasion
Plus, it can be abused with Thunder/Hurricane (RAAAAIIINNNN) and No Guard to pick off an individual threat, or with status to weather an afflicted opponent.
 
Darkmalice, your Sky Drop replay is weird - Sky Drop users can select a different target to damage with Sky Drop after selecting a Pokemon to lift up in the air? Is Sky Drop mechanics implemented correctly in Showdown!? or is this truly how Sky Drop operates x_x

youngjake93, Hawlucha unfortunately does NOT learn Close Combat. It's also a lightweight, so its Sky Drop would probably be fail against most Pokemon not named Rotom-W.

The one caveat of Sky Drop is that although it prevents the opponent from making a move, you also cannot attack the airborne opponent outside of Sky Drop without Thunder, Hurricane, No Guard, etc. It's not a complete shut down of the opponent. Fake Out definitively shuts down non-Inner Focus Pokemon, making it more reliable (or at least much easier to use) imo.
 
Oh wow I always just targeted the mon that I picked up.. That would actually be pretty useful to hit the other mon in some situations(like if I want to pick up a flying type, but still do dmg).
I have the feeling that it is a bug though
 
Pocket said:
Darkmalice, your Sky Drop replay is weird - Sky Drop users can select a different target to damage with Sky Drop after selecting a Pokemon to lift up in the air? Is Sky Drop mechanics implemented correctly in Showdown!? or is this truly how Sky Drop operates x_x
Click to expand...

You're right; it's not implemented correctly. You should not be able to select a different target on the second turn. The bug currently works in the favour of the Sky Drop user, as it lets you choose which of the two opposing Pokemon you damage, which is not necessarily the same as the one you disable for a turn. Like in my replay, I could damage Garchomp instead of the +3 Stockpile bulky Munchlax.

I posted that replay mainly as a joke, though I realised that there were a few interesting perks of Sky Drop that were shown in that replay, such as combining it with Thunder and for adding on Poison damage. Also priority on slow Mons works as a good acounter to Sky Drop, as you attack before you get picked up, and then you may still attack on the second turn provided you are slower than the Sky Drop user.

Regarding the comparison to Fake Out, yes it's not as reliable as Fake Out. Mainly because it can be stopped by Fake Out and Rage Powder, and your opponent knows your Pokemon will land on the second turn and can take advantage of it in a similar vein to Fly (though not to the same extent). The biggest pro it has over Fake Out is that on a Flying-type, it can actually deal some decent damage in the process in addition to helping set up. Sky Drop with Mega Aerodactyl as your teammate sets up, and Mega Aerodactyl is sufficiently fast to outspeed most Pokemon and lift them up before they can stop your set up. Good sets up would be screens or moves like Swords Dance, as Aerodactyl doesn't need Tailwind support, and Trick Room pairs horribly with Sky Drop. And you deal decent damage in the process. Other Mons can be used instead of Aerodactyl, but Aerodactyl's speed makes it more reliably for supporting your teammate, and it deals more damage than any other Mons thanks to both its Attack stat and Tough Claws. Sky Drop is also reusable upon landing if you want further support, where as Fake Out only works first turn (and is thus also vulnerable to a faster Fake Out user, or double Protect if you can't set up on the turn that you can use Fake Out).
 
I think two Sky Drop users that have been ignored so far that could be interesting are Tornadus and Braviary. One of the main contributing factors towards their viability is their ability in Defiant. Defiant is a great ability which gives +2 Attack for every stat drop. Therefore, every time something like Hitmontop or Landorus-T drops their Attack with Intimidate, they end up getting +1 Attack thanks to their ability's effect. They also do a great job of dealing with Hitmontop in general thanks to their super-effective STAB moves (Sky Drop in this instance). Tornadus obviously has another good ability in Prankster, so that may be preferable over Defiant, but Defiant is still a great choice. With Sky Drop, not only do they do good damage, but they can stall for some sort of residual damage, which leads me onto what I want to say next.

Toxic stalling becomes vaguely viable with the use of this move. You can stall the opponent for 2 turns with Sky Drop as damage racks up, which has potential, though I haven't tried it myself yet. Obviously the main problem with this strategy still stands as it does for standard stall in doubles - there are two Pokemon on the oppositions side that can potentially attack your bulky Pokemon, significantly weakening them and making stall as a playstyle less effective by far. Sky Drop remedies this to an extent. Not only does it make one of your Pokemon untouchable for a turn, but it also immobilizes one of the opponents Pokemon for a turn, while dealing damage on the second turn and racking up residual damage the whole time. I think Braviary has the potential to run a set something along the lines of Sky Drop / Toxic / Protect / something else, such as Return or Roost. You could even opt for Substitute if you really don't want to be hit. Obviously a bulky spread would be preferred, though speed is useful to quickly immobilize a Pokemon that may cause trouble for your team.
 
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oh my bad, I didn't see you mention that. It's definitely one of the more interesting potential sky drop users, and I was wondering why I hadn't seen anyone post about it. Guess I should read more thoroughly then
 
Although Sky Drop could certainly be used for stalling, since I personally prefer a hyper-offensive strategy, I'll focus on the fact that it immobilizes an enemy Pokemon for a turn. So what advantages does it have over Fake Out? There are two big ones: It works on Ghosts, which are often used in Doubles to set up Trick Room, and, unlike Fake Out, its use isn't restricted to the first turn that the Pokemon is in battle. This means that it could be viable to use Sky Drop to set up Tailwind, or to order your Porygon-Z to obliterate something with Hyper Beam (Note: The last part of that sentence is not meant to be taken seriously). Tailwind doesn't last long, so you need to take advantage of it as much as possible when it is up. Sky Drop also does decent damage; Tough Claws boosts it up to a fairly respectable 90BP, and with Megadactyl's base 105 attack, it won't do devastating damage, but it will be more than a tickle, to say the least. Furthermore, if you use Sky Drop in a rain team, as stated by youngjake93, you can abuse it + Hurricane/Thunder to cause massive damage. The only drawback of Sky Drop is its poor distribution; only Pokemon that are supposed to be the strongest of fliers (and Hawlucha) can learn it. However, I should mention that there are cases when Fake Out is superior; most notably when dealing with Prankster users and Talonflame, as they have priority and will move before you if you try to use Sky Drop.

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Jolly nature
Ability: Rock Head -> Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4 HP
Sky Drop
Rock Slide
Thunder Fang/Ice Fang
Taunt

Fairly self-explanatory, and was somewhat covered by Branflakes325. This is meant to be an anti-lead set, and the way to use it would be to Mega-evolve and use Sky Drop on the opponent's Tailwind/Trick Room/Hazard/Gravity/etc user to shut them down. With 252 EVs and a Jolly nature, not much will outspeed you. Once the opposing strategy setter is in Aerodactyl's grasp, have your other Pokemon set up your own strategy. As I stated above, Tailwind works well if your other 4 Pokemon are bulky attackers. If Tailwind wears off and Aerodactyl is still alive, just use Sky Drop on whichever opponent threatens your Tailwind setter! Rock Slide is for STAB that hits all opponents, Thunder Fang hits Water-types and gets the boost from Tough Claws, and Ice Fang is the same for Dragons. Taunt is another weapon against Pokemon like Dusclops who are bulky enough to survive a Sky Drop and just use Trick Room in the next turn.

And finally...
1i0Sa9Y.png

Aerodactyl used Sky Drop on Ash 4 generations before it was a move.
 
So Sky Drop Nite made it onto my current go-to team(so much synergy with subtran omg) and has helped me win against some tough opponents! I'm confident that Sky Drop+134 attack E Speed are enough to consider it on any serious team. If it hadn't performed so solidly in clutch situations time and again, I probably would have thought it was just a fun gimmick.

I don't want to share all the replays, but I really feel the need to share this one against cxinlee before totw changes. Dragonite single-handedly won this match for me and it felt great after I played kind of meh at the beginning.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oriserver-pokebanksmogondoublesbeta-61732

Dragonite's spot was originally filled by CB Talonflame and has actually improved the team A LOT surprisingly. Sky Drop serves as a disruptor, staller, way to regain health and actually a cool STAB. Dragonite gets soo many opportunities to come in and disrupt or kill w/espeed unlike some Fake Out or prio users because it has sweeet resistances.
To have a reliable disruptor AND a priority user that can also provide utility or hit using its 134 attack, with cool 91/95/100 bulk and Multiscale that is immune to EQ, 4x resist grass, resists bug, resists fire, resists water and resists fighting is just such a luxury.

I kind of feel bad that I haven't used any other Sky Drop users, but I just can't justify Mega-Aero's megastone cost in this meta and that was the 2nd most viable option I've seen suggested.
 
youngjake93 said:
So Sky Drop Nite made it onto my current go-to team(so much synergy with subtran omg) and has helped me win against some tough opponents! I'm confident that Sky Drop+134 attack E Speed are enough to consider it on any serious team. If it hadn't performed so solidly in clutch situations time and again, I probably would have thought it was just a fun gimmick.
Click to expand...

This is mildly off topic, but I think you should look into trying Weakness Policy on Dragonite rather than Lefties. Thanks to Multiscale, it is easy to tank a Super-Effective Rock Slide, Dragon Claw, Ice Beam, or whatever and acquire a +2 Attack boost. Then you can proceed to snag KOs with Sky Drop, Dragon Claw, EQ, ESpeed, or whatever other move you prefer. I've been trying this on one of my teams and it has been working wonderfully so far.
 
Nollan said:
This is mildly off topic, but I think you should look into trying Weakness Policy on Dragonite rather than Lefties. Thanks to Multiscale, it is easy to tank a Super-Effective Rock Slide, Dragon Claw, Ice Beam, or whatever and acquire a +2 Attack boost. Then you can proceed to snag KOs with Sky Drop, Dragon Claw, EQ, ESpeed, or whatever other move you prefer. I've been trying this on one of my teams and it has been working wonderfully so far.
Click to expand...

This might work, but honestly I always go for the initial Fake Out on DNite to break Multiscale, and follow up with an Ice move, even before the addition of Weakness Policy. Honestly, Scarf Rotom-W + Hitmontop makes for a perfect anti-DNite pair, with Fake Out followed by a super fast HP Ice usually being enough to kill the vast majority of DNite sets.
 
BlankZero said:
This might work, but honestly I always go for the initial Fake Out on DNite to break Multiscale, and follow up with an Ice move, even before the addition of Weakness Policy. Honestly, Scarf Rotom-W + Hitmontop makes for a perfect anti-DNite pair, with Fake Out followed by a super fast HP Ice usually being enough to kill the vast majority of DNite sets.
Click to expand...
I decided to make my first ever warstory! It shows some Sky Drop Dnite usage, but more importantly on turn 1 it shows how to respond to Fake Out+HP Ice when you lack Protect lol.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokebank-doubles-round-1.3495335/

Should I get bonus points for making a warstory with Sky Drop in it? I think yes.
 
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