Articuno, so called "legendary" pokemon is in PU i.e. the worst tier for un-evolved Pokemon.
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Pokémon Toxapex
- Thread starter Samoyed
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Yeah I agree with you. Being a legendary doesn't necessarily equate to viability. Look at Kyurem-Black for example, it is bonkers as far as BST is considered, but it sucked so hard in Ubers that it was even BL for some time in 6th gen. Conversely, look at Mega Kanga. That thing was still effective as revenge killer in Ubers despite not being a legendary. Power in competitive play is based on usage and how effective the pokemon is in battle, simple as that. Its not based on whatever arbitrary "legendary" is on the cover of the game. Newbies just don't understand that and play with legendaries thinking they will win every game. Lol XD They shouldn't be on smogon if they don't like to accept reality.
This was provided already tho by dragontamer:
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 264-312 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 179-213 (58.8 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 13-15 (3.3 - 3.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 376-444 (117.1 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Toxapex: 276-328 (85.9 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
You responded by saying Toxapex hitting Starmie with a payback after SR and a layer of spikes, has a 50% chance to OHKO (underlined sections to show how many things need to happen for this to work out in Toxapex's favor). Even IF we accept the payback thing, you've got 5 other viable and common pokes to deal with it listed here, so your question is answered.
It has been said already but I'll say it again anyway, in-game legendary status has absolutely no bearing on it's competitive status, and smogon doesn't take legendary status into consideration when discussing pokemon because it has no in-battle effect, and thus isn't relevant. What is relevant is the poke's competitive viability. Those legendaries that are deemed too powerful for OU have their own tier (joined by a few megas and blaziken) called Ubers (not sure if you know about this as you joined a couple days ago).
As these forums are a place for both discussion among knowledgeable players and a resource for newer players to learn how to play pokemon competitively, bringing up super-niche things or gimmicky (payback) sets is discouraged as it either distracts from more meaningful discussion or sets a newbie on the wrong path. Unless, of course, you have replays to show that you're weird/niche thing actually functions in the current meta.
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Ignoring this pokelatent5 guy who seems to have no clue what he's doing, I'm pretty sure Genesect's ban will have no effect on Toxapex (Genesect literally did nothing to this thing unless it was using a Download boosted Thunderbolt, in which case you probably should have run for the hills). Also, is there consensus on the Rocky Helmet vs recovery item debate that was going on a few pages back before this noob showed up?
you haven't shat up the thread lately what happened?
It is a tough question. The extra damage seems wondrous for a mon who generally has trouble putting quick damage on the foe and it synergizes spectacularly with Regenerator. Often opponents will be quick to switch out their sweeper mons or all out attackers when they fail to make a dent on a switched in Toxapex and against contact hits, it keeps them from getting away scott free while Recover and Regenerator help compensate for the lack of Black Sludge. It can also prove to be vital source of damage against mons you can't Poison or manage to burn with Scald.
On the other hand, it seems people are really starting to dig for ways to more easily blow through walls and tanks with potent new offensive cores and surprising uses for Z-Moves coming up. Given that and the fact that meta still hasn't quite stabilized, having your wall be put into a 2HKO situation where you need them to sap your opponent's momentum can be scary proposition and the passive recovery Black Sludge offers can often be the tipping point on that balance. Plus, Toxapex is far more targeted by non-contact moves than other mons that like Rocky Helmet due to having Psychic and Electric weaknesse as well as an Earthquake weakness.
Personally, when I feel that the meta has stabilized enough (and hopefully Toxapex will still be good. Please still be good. Well made Poison types are such a rarity), I intend to stick to Black Sludge but Rocky Helmet definitely has some merit. The question boils down to whether you're content with Toxapex just forcing out/stalling sweepers with burns and Toxic or feel it needs that extra nudge from Rocky Helmet to pressure physcial attackers due to its nonexistent offense.
On another note, is 252 EVs into Defense still the gold standard? I browsed the Good Cores thread and seeing some of the offensive cores list makes me wonder if Toxapex could do with with having more Sp. Def EVs on Bold or outright going for a Calm nature. Just to keep special attackers on their toes.
I actually went with 252 special defense/calm, because Toxapex's defense is naturally higher anyways and Toxapex tends to- as you noted previously- take a lot of special moves. So why not shore up its defenses in that respect? Yes, I know, running Rocky Helmet with a special defense focused spread is counterintuitive, but Pheromosa wasn't even going to do shit to this thing and Megagross was probably still going to 2HKO with Thunderpunch anyways.
Stall
Toxapex @ Black Sludge / Any Healing Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Baneful Bunker
- Recover
- Haze / Substitute
- Toxic
this set is broken, aside from weakness to taunt. the ability to recover and Baneful bunker at free will, ultimate stall.
running sub on Toxapex is a good move for stalling toxic. but haze can be better suited to stopping set ups against Toxapex
Toxapex paired with Salazzle is a rediculous poison combo. My mono-poison team is a serious force in ou.
edit: I have been informed that protect moves stack with each other so I edited to my main set(s).
Toxapex @ Black Sludge / Any Healing Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Baneful Bunker
- Recover
- Haze / Substitute
- Toxic
this set is broken, aside from weakness to taunt. the ability to recover and Baneful bunker at free will, ultimate stall.
running sub on Toxapex is a good move for stalling toxic. but haze can be better suited to stopping set ups against Toxapex
Toxapex paired with Salazzle is a rediculous poison combo. My mono-poison team is a serious force in ou.
edit: I have been informed that protect moves stack with each other so I edited to my main set(s).
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Inb4 switch in Salazzles. my poison team opens with Toxa, then switch to Salaz to get the ones I cant poison with toxa. unrealisticly good combo.
No, not that good. Any good player catches you on the switch and EQs his way to victory. You can't afford Toxic on Salazzle if you have to switch a mon that's already weak to ground to use it.
Back on Toxapex
So your set isn't a thing at all.
You cannot use two Protect moves at once. The fail chance carries over one each other If you use both.
I feel like Rocky Helmet is still a great way to punish U-turn users in some small manner and chip down Megagross variants that don't run Earthquake, but extra regeneration is still king, I suppose.
well that's new to me, thank you. I don't usually use stall sets so the haze + toxic is probably my best bet.
air balloon? I don't recommend using them both for most people but covering ground weaknesses on a team usually isn't that hard.
So this is a nice set. However, I have one question. I am currently leveling up my mareanie while ev training it and i have came across venoshock. So I taught it the move until later down the road when it will learn the other moves. So I thow it out into battle this was on a level 52 cottonee (yes im aware its giving me speed evs just had to test venoshock will clear out speed ev). I used toxic first turn and then venoshock. So not only is it landing a critical hit but venoshock is doing a whopping 120 damage I believe (not sure if thats right). So I was wondering why isnt that in your move list.
You can't evaluate the performance of a set against in-game Pokémon, especially if they're 4 times weak to your attack, low IV, no EV.
53 SpA does nothing for you competitively even with a 120 BP crit. Sure you can fool around and surprize someone but how many kills will you get? 1 every 15 battles?
Toxapex is forhug and snug wall not for fug sweep
I don't want to sound pretentious or what, considering my post count it would be stupid but why don't you (last posters) keep in mind that Smogon is made to discuss sets that are viable in a particular metagame.
53 SpA does nothing for you competitively even with a 120 BP crit. Sure you can fool around and surprize someone but how many kills will you get? 1 every 15 battles?
Toxapex is for
I don't want to sound pretentious or what, considering my post count it would be stupid but why don't you (last posters) keep in mind that Smogon is made to discuss sets that are viable in a particular metagame.
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I have to say that 130base stab CRIT attack will hit hard against just about anything that doesn't resist it, even with 53 sp.atk. Which makes it a pretty nice late game sweeper. But as good of a late game sweeper it is leagues better as a defensive pivot/infinit poison stall.
Right now toxapex is one of the few extreme stall pokemon that are win conditions if the opponent doesn't bring a direct check/counter. Running a merciless set you increase the amount of checks and counters it has. So by running it you are taking away potential victory because your opponent will be unintentionally bringing a counter/check.
The best analogy I can make is that you have a square peg trying to fit it in a circular hole. Yes you can find a bigger hole to fit it in or you could always put it in the square hole .
Toxapex has 30 base speed. Even if this combo were a 100% accurate Sheer Cold that hit through Sturdy Toxapex would be a horrible sweeper. Its outrun by Chansey for goodness sake.
Worse yet, Venoshock is a terrible "Sweeping" attacking type. You're walled hard by every Steel Pokemon and Poison pokemon in the game, not only other Toxapex... but Venusaur, Skarmory, Celesteela, Mega-Metagross. You're not sweeping anybody's team, not by a long shot.
Even then, Toxic + Venoshock will take two turns to attack. Any wall-breaker will have KO'd Toxapex by then.
I don't think you quite understand the term "Win Condition". The win conditions of the past were Calm Mind Slowbro (Psyshock / Scald / Calm Mind / Slack Off), Crocune (Calm Mind / Rest / Sleep Talk / Scald Suicune), Calm Mind Unaware Clefable. These Pokemon have absurdly huge defenses AND the ability to OHKO the entire team due to a good set-up attack AND have somewhat reliable recovery to stay healthy.
Toxapex's best set is Recover / Toxic / Haze / Scald. Its an extremely good utility mon with a precise purpose in mind. It stops opponent's setup pokemon, sponges up some damage (which can be recoverd or regenerator'd), and threatens to spread status on two frongs (Burn from Scald, and 100% Toxic).
Even in the best case, should Toxapex reach the late game unscathed... it has absolutely no way to actually finish-off large number of Pokemon. Toxapex's threat is its ability to cripple opponents so that the rest of the team can finish off the weakened, status'd pokemon.
To take the Square peg analogy further, it's like trying to fit a Snowball into a grated triangle hole in the middle of a furnace. Everything's burning down while you try to do this, and by the time you get the Snowball through, you don't have a snowball anymore.
Toxapex running any offensive move besides Scald is bad. Toxapex running Merciless is bad. Toxapex running Baneful Bunker is bad. This thus makes the above set Bad x3.
Can we get back to discussing something relevant to the OU meta now? We've discussed why this set is a bad idea, and I think once that information has been presented, better to return to normal discussion and leave accepting that information to the other party.
Toxapex running any offensive move besides Scald is bad. Toxapex running Merciless is bad. Toxapex running Baneful Bunker is bad. This thus makes the above set Bad x3.
Can we get back to discussing something relevant to the OU meta now? We've discussed why this set is a bad idea, and I think once that information has been presented, better to return to normal discussion and leave accepting that information to the other party.
I think part of the problem is that there's basically no room for creativity here. Scald / Toxic / Recover / Haze is more or less perfection for this Pokemon. Maybe slash a "Toxic Spikes" in there?
It also has Light Screen, that's kinda useful. But Alolan-Ninetails does that better.
The only thing that might warrant discussion is Infestation + Binding Band. But I'm not even sure that a gimmick set like that is much better than the standard set. Its difficult for me to even imagine a situation where Infestation / Binding Band would be superior to the other set. Its only real benefit is that you deal 1/6th the opponent's switchin HP damage, AND they can't double-switch on you. So I guess you get a slight advantage as far as switch-momentum?
Toxic Spikes is definitely an option over Toxic if you don't want to have to poison everything that comes in individually. Only problem is that its a little difficult to keep them on the field with Mega Venusaur more popular than ever and with stuff like Mantine and Tapu Fini (I'm assuming Misty Terrain blocks Toxic Spikes?) being able to just come in and Defog them away for free. Still, it's certainly a decent option to break through bulkier teams a little better and to quickly poison an entire team.
Binding Band seems like nothing more than a gimmick to me. Toxapex doesn't particularly appreciate missing out on the recovery that Black Sludge provides and I don't think the partial trapping effect is nearly as good as the increasing damage from poison or the halved attack from a Scald burn.
Toxic Spikes act before the terrain gets up, so Tapu Fini will get poisoned. Every other good spinner and defogger is immune, though.
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