Toxicroak Discussion

[SDShamshel]

I find it odd that first someone says the problem with Toxicroak vs Heracross is that we're not sure if it might have Earthquake.

Then someone says that Anticipation is not good because Earthquakers, etc are predictable in terms of who has it and who doesn't.

Do you perhaps see a discrepancy here, and a simple use for Toxicroak's 2nd trait?

 

[Hyra]

Base stats matter less than the way they're distributed, Kingdra also has 540 total and nobody's saying he's as good as say Heracross, whose total is only 500. The key is a more extreme version of what natures do, take from unneeded stats to boost the stats you want. Heracross has a measly 40 spatk in this case.

If a hypothetical pokemon had stats of 60/110/75/5/85/115, you'd say it's as good as Starmie, but it only has 450 points total (less than Piloswine).

Not that's off my chest, I really need to see how well Swords Danced Sucker Punch from this guy does to Dugtrio, his bane. He resists Duggy's Sucker Punch, sooo...

Well that's why I mentioned Alakazam. It is incredibly good because GF gave it two high stats and the other relatively low. Balanced Pokemon like Kingdra need alot of base stats to be considered good. Toxicroak could have Heracross like stats, except they gave it too much Special Attack. Take even 30 points off of that and move it to Attack, it will have more than Metagross/Salamence.

Really, when Gamefreak gives something 100ish attack and then 80 Special Atk they are just killing the Pokemon. I know movepool and typing matters (Heracross has some of the best offensive STAB in the game), but could you pull off a CSGyarados as well as CGMence? No, it has way to little SAtk for it. In other words, Jack of all trades, master of none.

 

[Medi Guy]

Well that's why I mentioned Alakazam. It is incredibly good because GF gave it two high stats and the other relatively low. Balanced Pokemon like Kingdra need alot of base stats to be considered good. Toxicroak could have Heracross like stats, except they gave it too much Special Attack. Take even 30 points off of that and move it to Attack, it will have more than Metagross/Salamence.

Really, when Gamefreak gives something 100ish attack and then 80 Special Atk they are just killing the Pokemon. I know movepool and typing matters (Heracross has some of the best offensive STAB in the game), but could you pull off a CSGyarados as well as CGMence? No, it has way to little SAtk for it. In other words, Jack of all trades, master of none.

100ish attack and then 80 special attack?

You mean like Swampert's 110 attack and 85 special attack? That's a lot to put into both attacks, isn't it? It does have 535 total base stats though, way more than that weakling Weezing, saddled with 90/85 attacking stats. What else is it going to do? Tank with 60/120/70 defenses? Are you joking? Ludicolo has no stat above 100 - what is it going to do?

Except that all of those Pokemon don't have one or two high stats and a bunch of low ones - they are buoyed up by their typing, their movepool, and, in Weezing's case, their trait. Who is to say that Toxicroak, with resistance to Heracross's best moves, Swords Dance, and a free immunity to Water to boot will not join them?

 

[Acadia]

Given that I didn't get to even update the trait thread, I of course didn't get to correct the mistake that I've seen in this thread since yesterday, especially since some people might misunderstand Dry Skin due to the word "immune" being thrown around:

Dry Skin makes you ABSORB water, not just be immune to it, and recover 1/16 HP in Rain in exchange for giving you a trait-induced weakness to Fire and being "poisoned" by being the Sun.


The frog has potential, like anything "destined" for fan-made tiers of "UU" and "BL"; I'm not going to get into the silly discussion about base totals that might end up getting this thread closed.

 

[reaverz]

Bulky Waters with only Surf and Ice Beam (Milotic and such) wont like Toxicroak. Most Water Absorbers cant hit other waters very well, but Croak can most definitely. Not only that, but if the water doesnt switch out, Croak can set up multiple Swords Dances/Nasty Plots since he takes some Ice Beams relatively calmly...

Yeah, I think it will have trouble in OU also, but it can definitely make high UU and perhaps BL. Having Water Absorb on something thats not Water finally does the trait full justice...

 

[phatJacob07]

Well, Dry Skin is more like Water Absorb + Rain Dish + Poison in the sun +fire weak…

 

[reaverz]

I hear that the Fire weak is in fact a Fire STAB for the opponent, meaning they only do 1.5x more damage with Fire moves as opposed to 2x. Has this been confirmed yet?

 

[El_Sargento]

The Fire weakness is nullified in rain, by the way...

 

[Maslada]

I find it odd that first someone says the problem with Toxicroak vs Heracross is that we're not sure if it might have Earthquake.

Then someone says that Anticipation is not good because Earthquakers, etc are predictable in terms of who has it and who doesn't.

Do you perhaps see a discrepancy here, and a simple use for Toxicroak's 2nd trait?

This is actually quite a good idea because no one is going to test if you have dry skin by using a water move. However there may be some sort of animation that would give away that you it...

 

[harle1012000]

Wait, about Dry Skin, by absorbing you mean he gains back 25% of his health when hit by a water attack AND he slowly gains HP in the rain? If so, then I can definitely see myself making a Rain Dance team with this guy then. Stats may not be the greatest but consider this:

His 85 base stat speed matches Heracross.
Heracross and him both have a 4x weakness and 2 2x weakness.

Of course, I'm not saying he's in the same league as Herry, but just something to think about. Also, Sucker Punch is awesome (and Absol learns it too)!

 

[Footnote]

I find it odd that first someone says the problem with Toxicroak vs Heracross is that we're not sure if it might have Earthquake.

Then someone says that Anticipation is not good because Earthquakers, etc are predictable in terms of who has it and who doesn't.

Do you perhaps see a discrepancy here, and a simple use for Toxicroak's 2nd trait?

Well, you're right about the discrepency, although I've personally never claimed that Anticipation wasn't a good Ability, nor that Earthquake users are predictable.

From what I've heard, however, Anticipation only activates when Toxicroak is sent out. So, you'd send it in, it'd get scared, and you'd probably pull it out again. You 'wasted' a turn, but at least you saved your Toxicroak. And even though it only activates on your switch-in, I don't know how much difference it actually makes, since if your opponent sends out a Heracross against your Toxicroak, Anticipation may not activate but you have a pretty good idea that the Heracross can mess you up.

I guess I'm more skeptical about Toxicroak as a Heracross counter because I don't think it learns a single damaging Flying, Fire, or Psychic move. But I've never really bought into the strict necessity for 'counters', anyway.

On a side note, Anticipation apparently also activates when your opponent has a OHKO move or Explosion. This could be even more useful than knowing when your opponent has a super-effective move. Since OHKO moves tend to be banned around here, the first part doesn't help you, but it'd be nice to know when to switch to your Ghost, Rock or Steel type for an incoming Explosion.

 

[El_Sargento]

On a side note, Anticipation apparently also activates when your opponent has a OHKO move or Explosion. This could be even more useful than knowing when your opponent has a super-effective move. Since OHKO moves tend to be banned around here, the first part doesn't help you, but it'd be nice to know when to switch to your Ghost, Rock or Steel type for an incoming Explosion.

...or Damp Pokémon. (Golduck, Quagsire, Poliwrath...)

 

[ADH]

Second on Poliwrath, I'm liking how it can work somewhat decently in OU by my calculations and stuff.

 

[Payton64]

Wait, about Dry Skin, by absorbing you mean he gains back 25% of his health when hit by a water attack AND he slowly gains HP in the rain? If so, then I can definitely see myself making a Rain Dance team with this guy then.

exactly what i'm doing. i'm posting it in about an hour or 2.