Using this definition, does Annihilape not threaten both stall and the majority of fat/balance teams, leaving only HO to deal with it? Whenever you play Annihilape, unless you are confident you can kill it quickly, it creates a horrible chilling effect of you not clicking any weak pivoting or resisted moves on Annihilape in fear of triggering Rage Fist. This applies to walls such as Corviknight and Milotic as well as pivoting Pokemon such as Meowscarada and Ogerpon-Wellspring. In fact, we have the example of @Iknowup’s team having to use an extremely MU fishy Smeargle whose only purpose is to counter Annihilape in order to get to high ladder.
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Metagame Trademarked
- Thread starter Clas
- Start date
It's a wallbreaker, like Hoopa-Unbound. Hits hard but is slow.
Any normal defensive pokemon without the fighting weakness should be able to handle it.
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Equating Annihilape to Hoopa-Unbound as equal is objectively false.
1. Hoopa-U doesn’t have Rage Fist
No Rage Fist, no 350 BP Ghost STAB that can be powerful even through Reflect. Against Hoopa-U, you do not have to worry about clicking a pivot move or a weak move on a defensive Pokemon.
2. Hoopa-U has a bad typing
Psychic/Dark is far worse defensively than Annihilape’s Ghost/Fighting since it is 4x weak to U-Turn and only has an immunity to Psychic with no resistances. Annihilape can resist Bug, Poison, and Rock, and be immune to Fighting, which provides in many more opportunities to switch in.
3. Hoopa-U has better offensive stats and worse defensive stats
Hoopa-U is a glass cannon, while Annihilape is mainly a setup Pokemon since it wants to stack Rage Fist and use Bulk Up. This, combined with its better typing, makes Annihilape more able to absorb hits.
4. Hoopa-U can be checked defensively
Any defensive Dark Pokemon can check Hoopa-U unless it is using a Calm Mind Psyshock Focus Blast set. While you may criticize my usage of Umbreon, there still exist some other options such as Ting Lu. Annihilape has absolutely no defensive checks aside from MU fishy Smeargles.
1. Hoopa-U doesn’t have Rage Fist
No Rage Fist, no 350 BP Ghost STAB that can be powerful even through Reflect. Against Hoopa-U, you do not have to worry about clicking a pivot move or a weak move on a defensive Pokemon.
2. Hoopa-U has a bad typing
Psychic/Dark is far worse defensively than Annihilape’s Ghost/Fighting since it is 4x weak to U-Turn and only has an immunity to Psychic with no resistances. Annihilape can resist Bug, Poison, and Rock, and be immune to Fighting, which provides in many more opportunities to switch in.
3. Hoopa-U has better offensive stats and worse defensive stats
Hoopa-U is a glass cannon, while Annihilape is mainly a setup Pokemon since it wants to stack Rage Fist and use Bulk Up. This, combined with its better typing, makes Annihilape more able to absorb hits.
4. Hoopa-U can be checked defensively
Any defensive Dark Pokemon can check Hoopa-U unless it is using a Calm Mind Psyshock Focus Blast set. While you may criticize my usage of Umbreon, there still exist some other options such as Ting Lu. Annihilape has absolutely no defensive checks aside from MU fishy Smeargles.
sorry, but god damn what a HOT take that is.
I don't think you've thought through the ramifications of banning Corviknight or screens. It would lead to far more bans in the future in my mind. Just because something is used a lot doesn't mean it's broken. If you ban defog then you're probably going to have to ban both screens and hazards as TMs too, as defog is the most consistent way of removing those. At some point, if more TMs are banned, the meta will lose its identity.
Also, Anpawo has a point, you're using hard stall. Of course you are going to struggle versus the best stallbreaker in the tier. Balance and offense has ways of pressuring Annihilape, while you don't. Look at our replay, 300 turns and you didn't setup hazards or even try to attack. Like, if you don't try to make progress then of course you're going to get broken through. Full stall, with no hazards, is never going to be viable no matter what is banned.
My point isn’t banning Corviknight or only banning screens; my point is to ban Annihilape, Weavile, and Keldeo, and to restrict Defog, hazards, and Screens. If it leads to far more bans in the future, so be it, right? Isn’t tiering policy primarily concerned about the present, not the future? My point is to use the extremely high usage of Corviknight to demonstrate how unhealthy the metagame is.
In the 300-turn game, what exactly did you expect me to do? I wasn’t running Swords Dance Gliscor in that game and my attacking moves would have done absolutely nothing to Anpawo. I am using my game to demonstrate how infinite Defog prevents most meaningful progress from infinite hazard stack.
In the 300-turn game, what exactly did you expect me to do? I wasn’t running Swords Dance Gliscor in that game and my attacking moves would have done absolutely nothing to Anpawo. I am using my game to demonstrate how infinite Defog prevents most meaningful progress from infinite hazard stack.
none of these are actively true bar point 3 but that changes nothing, hoopa-u is by far the harder mon to answer. no dark types actually answer hoopa-u since its always running a fighting move and guessing what fighting move it is is where hoopa becomes uncheckable defensively
Ehh, meta identity concerns aside, broken shouldn’t be required to check broken.
The lack of conversation around all the Imprison and Protect+Disable nonsense feels like a huge blind spot to me. This skilless tech felt very gross. Did you all find Decidueye and Scarf Transform Smeargle deserving of high ladder placements? They’re silly anti-meta mu fishes that counter the meta on switch in, come on. These are way bigger red flags of an unhealthy meta than Corv being a requirement on every team, IMO. Imprison and Disable should be restricted on the same basis Skill Swap was going to be restricted.
I found Ape unhealthy too, and this would only be compounded if Imprison and Disable got the boot, but if people still find a full ban inadvisable, I think restricting Heal Bell would at least heavily nerf it. Even Stall would find more counterplay to it by being able to manually status it or being able to switch in a Flame Body into it, and thus forcing it to Rest more or use manual Heal Bell, making it much more exploitable.
I’m not a fan of screens in general, but I get why most people are against a full restriction. I think banning Light Clay as Clas mentioned would make this meta much less of a slog. This would also diminish Ape’s ability to absorb weak hits.
Weavile can eff right off, haha.
Reflect Umbreon seemed to do the job at walling Hoopa, but that’s very specific to stall and balance. Hoopa could probably go.
Keldeo I can’t say, I didn’t play against rain much.
Edit: Oh yeah, Healing moves. I think limiting it to one per team was a good compromise. You could still opt to run Regenerator as well.
Growth seemed rather overtuned when considering the both the ease of running Sun and that SD and NP had both been restricted.
The lack of conversation around all the Imprison and Protect+Disable nonsense feels like a huge blind spot to me. This skilless tech felt very gross. Did you all find Decidueye and Scarf Transform Smeargle deserving of high ladder placements? They’re silly anti-meta mu fishes that counter the meta on switch in, come on. These are way bigger red flags of an unhealthy meta than Corv being a requirement on every team, IMO. Imprison and Disable should be restricted on the same basis Skill Swap was going to be restricted.
I found Ape unhealthy too, and this would only be compounded if Imprison and Disable got the boot, but if people still find a full ban inadvisable, I think restricting Heal Bell would at least heavily nerf it. Even Stall would find more counterplay to it by being able to manually status it or being able to switch in a Flame Body into it, and thus forcing it to Rest more or use manual Heal Bell, making it much more exploitable.
I’m not a fan of screens in general, but I get why most people are against a full restriction. I think banning Light Clay as Clas mentioned would make this meta much less of a slog. This would also diminish Ape’s ability to absorb weak hits.
Weavile can eff right off, haha.
Reflect Umbreon seemed to do the job at walling Hoopa, but that’s very specific to stall and balance. Hoopa could probably go.
Keldeo I can’t say, I didn’t play against rain much.
Edit: Oh yeah, Healing moves. I think limiting it to one per team was a good compromise. You could still opt to run Regenerator as well.
Growth seemed rather overtuned when considering the both the ease of running Sun and that SD and NP had both been restricted.
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Keldeo is very good at forcing 50/50s if you aren't Tera Ghost or have Fezandipiti or (Galarian) Slowking since it generally OHKOes everything bar those special walls with its STABs. You can out-offense it since its never Scarf but considering how easy it is to slow things down or set hazards thats not easily done past Meowscarada (which struggles to break through Corviknight).
Well, I feel like I'm defending everything but I find Imprison and Disable fun to use.
Disable counters choice users and Imprison counters one pokemon, I don't think it's unhealthy to have counters in the game.
It's like Annihilape that counters my boy InkyDarkBird, not ban worthy imo.
I got to play very late, not even a full week before the end of the month. And yet, I loved this metagame unlike anything else. It took me a lot of tries to figure out my team fully, but I'm comfortable with what I got.
Despite of that, the meta has MANY problems, and I don't think it's inherently a result of the meta's concept, but rather just... unpredicability when it comes to what could actually become broken. First, gotta go with the trademarks themselves before talking about Pokemon.
Okay, now gotta go with the Pokemon that are problematic.
Also, bring back Mew and unban Regigigas. Mew did nothing wrong, just ban Imprison and the meta will be better because of it. And Regigigas has 0 good abilties to make use of besides like, Sunny Day to boost Heat Crash damage, it just goes from having a horrendous ability to having effectively no ability at all, it's like Kyurem but way, WAY worse.
Aaaand that's that. Overall I still love the meta a lot, but there are a few things that still need to be patched up. I can't wait to see it again on ladder, hopefully in a better state than it was last month.
Despite of that, the meta has MANY problems, and I don't think it's inherently a result of the meta's concept, but rather just... unpredicability when it comes to what could actually become broken. First, gotta go with the trademarks themselves before talking about Pokemon.
- Screens. These things are beyond absurd. You may hear that they make fat unkillable, but that is not its main issue, not even remotely. The problem with screens is not when they're used on fat, it's when they're used on offense. There are far too many threats that become incredibly hard to answer when you can't reliable OHKO them, not to mention how absurd some setup sweepers are. Against fat, you get plenty of choices and opportunities to break past, hell you might not even need a dedicated trademark to beat them. Against screens offense though? You better hope you carry an auto defogger to remove screens, a haze mon to make sure they can't get away with seting up in your face, or manaphy, because otherwise you're just gonna have a very awful time trying to beat them. So then you're kind of forced to run screens of your own to have a chance, and at that point games kind of boil down to whose screen setter dies first, and it just loops around and around. Restricting Reflect only is also not a viable option, Light Screen alone can already enable a bunch of mons enough. There are plenty of good Amnesia mons to help against special attackers, and people lowkey sleep on the power of Eerie Impulse. There is no need to allow such a centralizing mechanic in the meta.
- Recovery moves are dumb. Regenerator is already such a polarizing ability in most metas (I see you there AAA), and this is literally Regenerator on crack. And just like with Screens, this is NOT a problem that is exclusive to fat, but I will say that, contrary with screens, the problem actually is bigger on stall this time. On one hand, offense gets to not care about hazards at all (unless you're quad rock weak and grounded, you can heal off ANY hazard damage), as well as being able to fire off heavy recoil moves and/or Life Orb boosted attacks for free. On the other side of the spectrum... Cracked Regenerator on fat is not fun to fight against, especially not on super fat Assault Vest users, but that's besides the point. It allows for free, nearly impossible to punish switchins, and if they've ever actuall threatened, they can just pivot out into something else without worry, which leads to my next move that should get looked at...
- Disable. It is not like, absurd or centralizing in the same way Screens or the recovery tms are, but it's problematic in the same way Encore and Taunt are, and it pairs disgustingly well with the two trademarks mentioned above. It completely negates choice attackers, but it can also work to selectively turn off an offensive move to let a teammate switch in, or turn off a setup move, preventing the targed from making progress. This thing is not fun to play against, it puts the user at an immediate advantage even while the Disable user is not in the field.
- Imprison. I won't go into much detail about this because it's the least problematic of the bunch, but honestly this thing is better off gone and let Mew back in. Decidueye and Smeargle have already proven how unfun this thing is to play against. Decidueye specifically is a bad case as it can completely shut down some of the main hazard removal options in the tier, namely Corv and Tusk (unless the latter is running Bulk Up and Ice Spinner) and have that be its single purpose in a team, and yet it is STILL too effective. This is different from Gholdengo, where the Pokemon itself is already good in spite of its hazard removal negation, Decidueye is a bad mon becoming opressing solely from Imprison alone. And not to mention Smeargle, who is everything that made Mew awful except with a little less HP. Mew wasn't the issue, Imprison is.
- Accuracy lowering moves. Evasion abilities and Bright Powder have been banned in other metas many times before for way less. Having them allowed does nothing positive for the meta and encourages bad playstyles. They're not good, not even remotely, but that doesn't make them healthy either.
- Weavile. This thing is overpowered in the truest sense of the word. A defensive Pokemon needs at LEAST 3 of the following to be able to take on it consistently: good natural bulk, Reflect support, defense boosting trademarks, attack dropping trademarks, a resistance to Ice, not being Rocks weak and having reliable recovery. There are very few Pokemon who have access to complying with 3 of these conditions, and the ones that do are usually not very good.
I wouldn't say any of these are actually bad, but none of them are actually meta relevant beyond countering Weavile specifically (Except Slowking who is a well respected special tank, and Gholdengo who is really not meant or built to be a wall). We have no ways to fit defensive Weavile answers naturally in a single Pokemon.
As for offensive answers, it's kinda hard to get one when you also need it to both have an Ice Shard resistance and solid physical bulk. Barraskewda? Ass. Dragapult? Dead. Electrode? Ass and dead. Talonflame? Dead. Escuie? Who the hell is that. Jolteon? Dead and likely ass. You can realistically only beat it via Scary Face, Scarf or Strong priority who, again, are either fat or have an Ice resistance if you're going the offensive way. Weavile just needs to go. - Annihilape. Yeah. This thing should've been gone the moment status condition trademarks were gone. It's overpowered and there's no way around it. Busted mon, but many others have explained that way better than me before. This thing NEEDS to go.
- Keldeo. Rain Calm Mind Tera Water Choice Specs Hydro Pumps kills. There's no other way to put it. They just do. And if you try to have an Amnesia or a RegenVest Pokemon take on it, tought luck! Get hit with Secret Sword for 100% of your HP. Besides your Water resistance, you must run either Light Screen or have a Fighting resistance alongside a good chunk of physical bulk to avoid a 2HKO or even a OHKO from that move. 109 Speed is not bad either, but then you slap on Vaccuum Wave and a lot of offensive counterplay is gone. Then add on Flip Turn to gain momentum. This thing is kinda too strong, not as much as Ape or Weavile, as there ARE a good chunk of Pokemon that can deal with it, but it remains likely too strong.
Also, bring back Mew and unban Regigigas. Mew did nothing wrong, just ban Imprison and the meta will be better because of it. And Regigigas has 0 good abilties to make use of besides like, Sunny Day to boost Heat Crash damage, it just goes from having a horrendous ability to having effectively no ability at all, it's like Kyurem but way, WAY worse.
Aaaand that's that. Overall I still love the meta a lot, but there are a few things that still need to be patched up. I can't wait to see it again on ladder, hopefully in a better state than it was last month.
Also, reading back through some of the messages here, I highly agree with InkyDarkBird; if the removal of Screens results in more Pokemon banned, so what?
They are currently very centralizing and cause more problems than they fix. Besides, the Pokemon that would absolutely need to be banned with a Screens ban are likely broken regardless. If you NEED Screens to beat them, they were nevere balanced in the first place.
They are currently very centralizing and cause more problems than they fix. Besides, the Pokemon that would absolutely need to be banned with a Screens ban are likely broken regardless. If you NEED Screens to beat them, they were nevere balanced in the first place.
With the discussion above in mind, and with TM being fresh in memory, please hold off on the ban wave until a survey is held. There’s clearly conflicting opinions on some crucial pillars of the OM. The timing is right for a survey to gauge what the community thinks. There’s no reason to not wait a week or two with any new bans.
1. I mean at this point, let's just ban everything because everything is dumb.
Recover abilities are answers to hazard and chip damage but they usually don't take hits well, the only exception is with Assault Vest.
It has already been restricted to one per team, I think it's plenty enough.
2. I don't get your point with the comparison between Decidueye and Gholdengo.
Just because Gholdengo has other usage makes it OK to keep but not Decidueye because it has only one purpose ? What's that ??
So any pokemon able to do only one thing is dumb and should be banned ?
Decidueye is so passive and so predictable, you guys are really hating on a creative set.
Otherwise, I mostly agree with the bans you talked for the Pokemons.
Also, if a survey takes place, how much time will we get to answer, I hope I don't miss it.
The point I'm making here is that Decidueye, who is still a very bad Pokemon full of flaws, despite only having one singular real purpose in a team, can manage to crawl its way through the usage stats and still remain incredibly effective in a meta that is already having tons of problems with hazard management. It goes to show that Imprison is hard carrying a Pokemon who would otherwise be entirely useless and enables an, objectively, negatively impactul strategy for the meta right now. It fully shuts down the top 2 Pokemon, who you should have at least one of in most teams, and who are currently holding the tier together.
Is the set creative? Yes! It is very fun and the concept of Decidueye actually being good is great, but that doesn't give it the right to worsen the metagame for the fun of it. Between it, Mew and Smeargle, that's 3 Pokemon who make use of Imprison in a very poor manner, which should be enough to prove that the trademark itself is the issue.
Depends on the Pokemon. It is, indeed, an answer to hazards, but it really should NOT be. And then if you slap on some boots, then it works at its fullest. And what about the Pokemon who are truly just extremely fat and don't need an Eviolite or an Assault Vest to have bulk equal to that of an Iron Defense or Amnesia user? Not to mention that you need the Pokemon to be at the very least weak to Rocks and grounded to start negating recovery, else they will be able to continously switch in and slowly gain back their HP for free. Nah, I don't think only restricting them to one per team was enough. Again, it's what AAA did, and it was still kind of a mess.
The only exception I'd make is Roost to be honest, it's the only recovery trademark that can actually punish on Flying type Pokemon as they lose their Flying type altogether both defensively and offensively if they switch in. But then again, not all Pokemon that learn Roost are Flying types (anti Roaring Moon propaganda), so eh.
Oh, and Life Dew, Jungle Healing and Lunar Blessing because lmao.
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Okay I realized I forgot to talk about one bit that has been giving me trouble in my mind for a while.
Auto hazard setting and auto hazard removal is kind of weird. I don't quite like them, as the only way to beat them consistently is using them yourself. But at the same time, it's a mechanic that is almost fundamental to the meta, too ingrained in teambuilding for it to just go away. Maybe limiting their use would be a good idea? Like, either only 1 hazard setting trademark and 1 hazard removal trademark per team, or banning specific trademarks instead (like, and purely as an example, restricting Spikes and Sticky Web but still allowing Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock trademarks).
I don't want to see them go completely, but some work is needed with these
Auto hazard setting and auto hazard removal is kind of weird. I don't quite like them, as the only way to beat them consistently is using them yourself. But at the same time, it's a mechanic that is almost fundamental to the meta, too ingrained in teambuilding for it to just go away. Maybe limiting their use would be a good idea? Like, either only 1 hazard setting trademark and 1 hazard removal trademark per team, or banning specific trademarks instead (like, and purely as an example, restricting Spikes and Sticky Web but still allowing Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock trademarks).
I don't want to see them go completely, but some work is needed with these
Weavile, Keldeo, Annihilape, Hoopa-U, Shaymin-Sky, Light Clay, and Heal Bell* are now banned/restricted! Regigigas is now freed!
This will be our last major banwave unless something extremely problematic arises, in which case we will go down the survey path. Heal Bell is restricted, everything else is banned.
This will be our last major banwave unless something extremely problematic arises, in which case we will go down the survey path. Heal Bell is restricted, everything else is banned.
Weavile shouldn't need much explanation. Hone Claws Triple Axel with that much speed is incredibly difficult to switch into, and the main counterplay in Rocky Helmet is easily removed via Knock Off. The only viable switchins are also far and few between, with Dondozo and Toxapex only fitting on specific team structures, Sinistcha needing to use Tera Water, and Corviknight needing either Tera Water or major recovery support to not lose on the spot. Knock Off also meant that Spikes users like Meowscarada, the Ogerpon formes, and Deoxys-S paired phenomenally. This also doesn't include Tera Ice, which could just 2HKO IDef Corviknight. Weavile is also the main reason why other physically defensive walls with removal weren't used - you need an extra layer of security for very few benefits that Corviknight doesn't provide.
So good luck switching into Choice Specs Calm Mind Hydro Pump in Rain from Keldeo, because you also need to keep in mind Secret Sword. The only actual switch-ins were Light Screen Fezandipiti and the Slowkings, Tera Ghost Blissey, and niche Sunny Day users like Zapdos. Everything else was just KOed. As we are trying to cut down on the strain in the builder, this obviously needs to go.
Probably the most controversial Pokemon since day 1, Annihilape capitalized on the existence of Wish and Rest + Heal Bell to great effect while using Taunt + Rage Fist to permanently make progress incredibly quickly with minimal counterplay. While these have both now gone, it cannot be understated just how potent Rage Fist + Taunt is, as this combination is what makes Annihilape unhealthy, NOT Rage Fist alone. Not many things handle Annihilape long-term, often requiring recovery move users like Sinistcha and Gouging Fire accompanied with Terastallization to handle. We also technically saw Tera Ghost Imprison Smeargle as an answer, but that's not really real and there are better "true" answers than that anyway like Hisuian Zoroark.
Oh boy, this one. Hoopa-U is very funny if you don't a Recovery trademark user that matches well into it, which is to say most teams. Tera Dark Hyperspace Fury + Thunderbolt + Psychic Noise pressures 99% of the tier in combination with Scary Face, and its already incredible pairing with Screens and Alomomola make it really easy to use and get in with high HP to start firing off attacks and making instant progress. It's also worth noting that Dark-types are generally poor switch-ins thanks to the high usage of Fighting-type moves on Hoopa-U, mainly Drain Punch but Focus Blast and Brick Break are potent too.
This one was tough for us to agree on, as we weren't sure whether to hit Shaymin or Growth. However, we concluded on banning just Shaymin as there aren't any other major Growth users. Growth Shaymin on Sun cannot be understated, as Roaring Moon is easily blown up by Dazzling Gleam and the Poison Light Screen users are both not fans of Earth Power. Tera Fire is also incredibly terrifying for Corviknight to face, although this set is overwhelmingly weak to Stealth Rock. While this is the most answerable of the sets, Seed Flare causes just enough issues for us to hit Growth Skymin. If Growth ever is banned, though, Skymin will come back.
Yeah so turns out the Screens vs IDef/Amnesia debate is thrown out the water when Light Clay is around, as you just get the best of both worlds - that is teammates get a significant bulk boost and the bulk boost lasts long enough to allow the main Trademark user to keep walling things for long periods of time. This obviously isn't exactly healthy and the number of complaints about screens aren't ignorable with Light Clay around. We also hope that the removal of Light Clay will make recovery Trademarks a lot more manageable, as there is now a significant downside to not running something that supplements bulk instead.
Heal bell is by far the weirdest ban here, but its reason for banning is twofold. Firstly, status moves are no longer legal as Trademarks, meaning that regular status moves are simply punished for being used. This is obviously quite unfair as it removes a very consistent way of making progress versus bulkier teams, especially since Trademarks have infinite PP. The second is a rising strategy in high level play that is a bit too good - Rest spam + Heal Bell. Many Pokemon are balanced in Trademarked by not having recovery, either that being thanks to their incredible bulk, their amazing utility, or a combination of the two. Two major examples here are Ting-Lu and the now-banned Annihilape, where the former has access to Spikes + manual Stealth Rock + Whirlwind to force permanent hazard progress into Defog Corviknight teams, especially in combination with Gholdengo or Imprison Decidueye, and then supplement its HP with Rest, while Annihilape can fire off powerful attacks after tanking multiple hits to then use Rest without proper cost. The number of Pokemon that can do this is more than acceptable and contributes to making the meta a lot unhealthier than should be, so Heal Bell has gotten the boot. Yes we know that Chansey also gets the move, but hitting Blissey is illogical when Chansey can do generally the exact same thing.
so yeah we learned this thing cant do anything lmao its freed. whats it gonna do, use gravity? lol
Shaymin Sky dhelmise implement pls ty
I do want to say finally that there WILL be more to come for Trademarked in the near future, I do not want to let the current interest this meta has go to waste. Yes, I and the rest of the council are aware that there were requests for a survey, but we were already in talks of what to remove and why far before there were calls for one. Finally, thank you all again so so very much for the interest this past month, it cannot be stated just how insane 109,000 games in a month is. That's almost 10% of how many OU games there were, 20% of how many NatDex games there were, and 57% of how many Ubers games there were. We hope you guys enjoyed playing the meta last month despite the many roadblocks and issues the meta had all month long, and will stay enjoying the format and its developments to come.
cant believe i have to ban myself
This one was tough for us to agree on, as we weren't sure whether to hit Shaymin or Growth. However, we concluded on banning just Shaymin as there aren't any other major Growth users. Growth Shaymin on Sun cannot be understated, as Roaring Moon is easily blown up by Dazzling Gleam and the Poison Light Screen users are both not fans of Earth Power. Tera Fire is also incredibly terrifying for Corviknight to face, although this set is overwhelmingly weak to Stealth Rock. While this is the most answerable of the sets, Seed Flare causes just enough issues for us to hit Growth Skymin. If Growth ever is banned, though, Skymin will come back.
Shaymin Sky dhelmise implement pls ty
Here before this gets another hype train (I love this meta but it won't have the spotlight for quite a while)!
I have a really fun set to share- Rain Sweeper Masquerain!
Masquerain Choice Specs
Ability- Quiver Dance
Tera Water
-Bug Buzz
-Hurricane
-Ice Beam
-Hydro Pump
Ngl this thing absoloutly DEMOLISHED opponents.
I remember on the team there was a Rain Dance Zapdos
Maybe someone will use this set when the OM is playable again but idk
I have a really fun set to share- Rain Sweeper Masquerain!
Masquerain Choice Specs
Ability- Quiver Dance
Tera Water
-Bug Buzz
-Hurricane
-Ice Beam
-Hydro Pump
Ngl this thing absoloutly DEMOLISHED opponents.
I remember on the team there was a Rain Dance Zapdos
Maybe someone will use this set when the OM is playable again but idk
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Goodbye Weavile I will miss you, but you definitelly deserved the ban.Weavile, Keldeo, Annihilape, Hoopa-U, Shaymin-Sky, Light Clay, and Heal Bell* are now banned/restricted! Regigigas is now freed!
This will be our last major banwave unless something extremely problematic arises, in which case we will go down the survey path. Heal Bell is restricted, everything else is banned.
Weavile shouldn't need much explanation. Hone Claws Triple Axel with that much speed is incredibly difficult to switch into, and the main counterplay in Rocky Helmet is easily removed via Knock Off. The only viable switchins are also far and few between, with Dondozo and Toxapex only fitting on specific team structures, Sinistcha needing to use Tera Water, and Corviknight needing either Tera Water or major recovery support to not lose on the spot. Knock Off also meant that Spikes users like Meowscarada, the Ogerpon formes, and Deoxys-S paired phenomenally. This also doesn't include Tera Ice, which could just 2HKO IDef Corviknight. Weavile is also the main reason why other physically defensive walls with removal weren't used - you need an extra layer of security for very few benefits that Corviknight doesn't provide.
So good luck switching into Choice Specs Calm Mind Hydro Pump in Rain from Keldeo, because you also need to keep in mind Secret Sword. The only actual switch-ins were Light Screen Fezandipiti and the Slowkings, Tera Ghost Blissey, and niche Sunny Day users like Zapdos. Everything else was just KOed. As we are trying to cut down on the strain in the builder, this obviously needs to go.
Probably the most controversial Pokemon since day 1, Annihilape capitalized on the existence of Wish and Rest + Heal Bell to great effect while using Taunt + Rage Fist to permanently make progress incredibly quickly with minimal counterplay. While these have both now gone, it cannot be understated just how potent Rage Fist + Taunt is, as this combination is what makes Annihilape unhealthy, NOT Rage Fist alone. Not many things handle Annihilape long-term, often requiring recovery move users like Sinistcha and Gouging Fire accompanied with Terastallization to handle. We also technically saw Tera Ghost Imprison Smeargle as an answer, but that's not really real and there are better "true" answers than that anyway like Hisuian Zoroark.
Oh boy, this one. Hoopa-U is very funny if you don't a Recovery trademark user that matches well into it, which is to say most teams. Tera Dark Hyperspace Fury + Thunderbolt + Psychic Noise pressures 99% of the tier in combination with Scary Face, and its already incredible pairing with Screens and Alomomola make it really easy to use and get in with high HP to start firing off attacks and making instant progress. It's also worth noting that Dark-types are generally poor switch-ins thanks to the high usage of Fighting-type moves on Hoopa-U, mainly Drain Punch but Focus Blast and Brick Break are potent too.
This one was tough for us to agree on, as we weren't sure whether to hit Shaymin or Growth. However, we concluded on banning just Shaymin as there aren't any other major Growth users. Growth Shaymin on Sun cannot be understated, as Roaring Moon is easily blown up by Dazzling Gleam and the Poison Light Screen users are both not fans of Earth Power. Tera Fire is also incredibly terrifying for Corviknight to face, although this set is overwhelmingly weak to Stealth Rock. While this is the most answerable of the sets, Seed Flare causes just enough issues for us to hit Growth Skymin. If Growth ever is banned, though, Skymin will come back.
Yeah so turns out the Screens vs IDef/Amnesia debate is thrown out the water when Light Clay is around, as you just get the best of both worlds - that is teammates get a significant bulk boost and the bulk boost lasts long enough to allow the main Trademark user to keep walling things for long periods of time. This obviously isn't exactly healthy and the number of complaints about screens aren't ignorable with Light Clay around. We also hope that the removal of Light Clay will make recovery Trademarks a lot more manageable, as there is now a significant downside to not running something that supplements bulk instead.
Heal bell is by far the weirdest ban here, but its reason for banning is twofold. Firstly, status moves are no longer legal as Trademarks, meaning that regular status moves are simply punished for being used. This is obviously quite unfair as it removes a very consistent way of making progress versus bulkier teams, especially since Trademarks have infinite PP. The second is a rising strategy in high level play that is a bit too good - Rest spam + Heal Bell. Many Pokemon are balanced in Trademarked by not having recovery, either that being thanks to their incredible bulk, their amazing utility, or a combination of the two. Two major examples here are Ting-Lu and the now-banned Annihilape, where the former has access to Spikes + manual Stealth Rock + Whirlwind to force permanent hazard progress into Defog Corviknight teams, especially in combination with Gholdengo or Imprison Decidueye, and then supplement its HP with Rest, while Annihilape can fire off powerful attacks after tanking multiple hits to then use Rest without proper cost. The number of Pokemon that can do this is more than acceptable and contributes to making the meta a lot unhealthier than should be, so Heal Bell has gotten the boot. Yes we know that Chansey also gets the move, but hitting Blissey is illogical when Chansey can do generally the exact same thing.
so yeah we learned this thing cant do anything lmao its freed. whats it gonna do, use gravity? lol
Shaymin Sky dhelmise implement pls ty
I do want to say finally that there WILL be more to come for Trademarked in the near future, I do not want to let the current interest this meta has go to waste. Yes, I and the rest of the council are aware that there were requests for a survey, but we were already in talks of what to remove and why far before there were calls for one. Finally, thank you all again so so very much for the interest this past month, it cannot be stated just how insane 109,000 games in a month is. That's almost 10% of how many OU games there were, 20% of how many NatDex games there were, and 57% of how many Ubers games there were. We hope you guys enjoyed playing the meta last month despite the many roadblocks and issues the meta had all month long, and will stay enjoying the format and its developments to come.
I remember a somewhat niche variant I often use (In OMs where I use weavile) is Tera Poison!
You get rid of
-A Fighting weakness
-A Fairy Weakness
-A bug Weakness
Turning them into resists;
In exchange, you are only weak to Psychic and Ground, hit for Super Effective by Dark and Ice STAB respectively.
ADDITIONALLY Weavile has poison jab, so it can hit the fairy types that used to give it trouble.
VR Rankings(First Updates!)
Red= Most Common
Green= Team dependent
most recent changes-
dragapult moved down to A+
meowscarada moved down to A-
ditto moved down to B+
decidueye moved down to B
clefable moved down to C+
ogerpon-teal moved down to C+
zarude moved down to C+
smeargle moved down to UR
corviknight moved up to A+
disable banned
imprison banned
magnet pull free
magnezone added to vr
malamar added to vr
S Rank
Darkrai(calm mind)
Iron Valiant(calm mind, psych up)
A+ Rank
Ceruledge(iron defense, bulk up)
Corviknight(reflect, defog, light screen, iron defense, roost, bulk up, curse, rain dance, sunny day)
Deoxys-Speed(spikes, stealth rock, calm mind, recover, gravity, psychic surge)
Dragapult(reflect, light screen)
Ogerpon-Wellspring( growth, rain dance, spikes, grassy terrain, synthesis,)
Roaring Moon(roost, scary face, leer)
Slowking-Galar(light screen, slack off, toxic spikes, amnesia, regenerator)
A Tier
Cinderace(court change, bulk up, sunny day)
Iron Crown(calm mind, amnesia, iron defense, metal sound)
Kyurem(snowscape, reflect, scary face, light screen
Ting-Lu(spikes, rest, stealth rock, vessel of ruin)
A -
Alomomola(regenerator, light screen)
Blissey(light screen, stealth rock, soft boiled, calm mind)
Enamorus-Therian(calm mind)
Gholdengo(good as gold, light screen, recover)
Great Tusk(stealth rock, bulk up, scary face, sunny day)
Gouging Fire(morning sun, noble roar, howl)
Iron Hands(charge, iron defense)
Kingambit(defiant, iron defense, supreme overlord, stealth rock)
Landorus-Therian(gravity, stealth rock, bulk up)
Meowscarada(hone claws, spikes, toxic spikes)
Pecharunt(poison puppeteer, recover, defense curl)
Primarina(calm mind, haze, perish song, reflect, light screen, amnesia)
Sinitscha(strength sap, calm mind, iron defense, reflect)
Thundurus-Therian(charge)
Walking Wake(scary face, rain dance, sunny day)
B +
Archaludon(iron defense, stealth rock, rain dance, light screen, reflect)
Ditto(imposter)
Dondozo(curse, unaware, tickle)
Dragonite(roost, light screen, haze, multiscale)
Garganacl(stealth rock, recover, stealth rock, curse, iron defense)
Greninja(spikes, toxic spikes)
Gliscor(posion heal, spikes, stealth rock)
Heatran(stealth rock, sunny day, iron defense, metal sound)
Iron Moth(toxic spikes, morning sun)
Iron Treads(stealth rock, iron defense)
Latios(calm mind)
Manaphy(take heart, heart swap)
Regieleki(charge)
Revavroom(shift gear)
Sandy Shocks(stealth rock, spikes, gravity)
Zapdos(roost, rain dance, sunny day, light screen)
B
Esparatha(speed boost)
Decidueye(roost, synthesis)
Hatterene(magic bounce)
Metagross(hone claws)
Milotic(recover)
Moltres(flame body, roost, sunny day)
Ogerpon-Cornerstone(spikes, synthesis, growth, grassy terrain)
Skarmory(spikes, roost, stealth rock, iron defense)
Slither Wing(morning sun, bulk up)
Quaquaval(roost, bulk up, feather dance)
B -
Chi-Yu(sunny day, beads of ruin, scary face)
Clodsire(unaware, water absorb, recover, spikes, stealth rock, haze)
Garchomp(spikes, stealth rock)
Goodra-Hisui(life dew)
Kommo-o(iron defense, clangorous soul, work up, stealth rock)
Latias(calm mind, recover, light screen)
Pawmot(bulk up, charge)
Porygon2(trace)
Samurott-Hisui(sharpness, scary face, screech)
Tinkaton(stealth rock, light screen, mold breaker, pickpocket,)
Tornadus-Therian(regenerator)
Weezing-Galar(haze, painsplit, defog)
C +
Barraskewda(swift swim)
Camerupt(growth)
Chansey(soft boiled, light screen, calm mind, stealth rock)
Chesnaught(synthesis, spikes, iron defense, grassy terrain)
Clefable(stealth rock, magic guard, unaware)
Cresselia(sunny day, psychic terrain)
Gastrodon(spikes, recover, stealth rock)
Lucario(bulk up, calm mind, work up)
Magnezone(magnet pull)
Malamar(topsy-turvy)
Palafin-Hero(zero to hero)
Rillaboom(grassy surge)
Scizor(curse, technician, iron defense)
Tauros-Paldea-Blaze(bulk up)
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua(bulk up)
Toxapex(recover, regenerator)
Typhlosion-Hisui(sunny day, calm mind)
Ogerpon(growth, spikes, grassy terrain, synthesis)
Oricorio(quiver dance)
Oricorio-Pom-Pom(quiver dance)
Umbreon(light screen, reflect, moonlight)
Vaporeon(haze, acid armor)
Zarude(grassy terrain, jungle healing)
Red= Most Common
Green= Team dependent
most recent changes-
dragapult moved down to A+
meowscarada moved down to A-
ditto moved down to B+
decidueye moved down to B
clefable moved down to C+
ogerpon-teal moved down to C+
zarude moved down to C+
smeargle moved down to UR
corviknight moved up to A+
disable banned
imprison banned
magnet pull free
magnezone added to vr
malamar added to vr
S Rank
A+ Rank
A Tier
A -
B +
B
B -
C +
Attachments
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Can’t wait to bring back my Camerupt for a round 2 now that Light Clay is gone,
TRADEMARKED COME BACK
Disable and Imprison are now banned. Magnet pull is now free!
both disable and imprison lead to some very cheesy strats. disable doesn't ever allow a choiced user to attack twice in a row forcing them to have to switch after an attack and their usefulness drastically drops. imprison let u target certain mons by carrying moves that they use in order to not allow them to ever click them at all or be used on a scarf smeargle to allow anything lower than scarf smeargle to have to switch.
Magnet pull is something we discussed for a while now it should be fine but action will be had if that turns out to be false down in the future
dhelmise pls
both disable and imprison lead to some very cheesy strats. disable doesn't ever allow a choiced user to attack twice in a row forcing them to have to switch after an attack and their usefulness drastically drops. imprison let u target certain mons by carrying moves that they use in order to not allow them to ever click them at all or be used on a scarf smeargle to allow anything lower than scarf smeargle to have to switch.
Magnet pull is something we discussed for a while now it should be fine but action will be had if that turns out to be false down in the future
dhelmise pls
RIP Spiritomb. You were a good counter to the broken Choiced attackers when Reflect couldn't keep up and a great Wisper.
I’ve voiced this concern before, but the direction you guys have taken with regard to balance changes ever since the last time this OM got a monthly ladder has completely robbed it of its identity. There were things that were “broken” in a vacuum, but because this OM was so unique compared to typical Pokémon formats, those elements actually balanced each other out — a kind of “broken checks broken” metagame, but in a good, non-snowbally way.
I’m not sure if it’s a conscious decision or just coincidence, but it feels like a lot of metas are balanced toward a more homogenized AAA-like meta. Strategies like Screens, Tailwind, Dragon Dance, Endure, Taunt, Imprison, etc., are all “broken” on paper in such a meta, but in the context of this OM specifically they used to balance one another naturally and allowed a very distinctly fun play pattern.
The only truly unbalanced aspects I can recall in the past three years were things like Para TMs or specific threats such as Sunny Day Moth or Bax. Right now, though, this OM feels like a shadow of what it used to be without it's uniqueness, creativity, and wackiness it once encouraged in teambuilding.
I really hope the current direction regarding balance decisions is reconsidered, though I’m not too optimistic.
I’m not sure if it’s a conscious decision or just coincidence, but it feels like a lot of metas are balanced toward a more homogenized AAA-like meta. Strategies like Screens, Tailwind, Dragon Dance, Endure, Taunt, Imprison, etc., are all “broken” on paper in such a meta, but in the context of this OM specifically they used to balance one another naturally and allowed a very distinctly fun play pattern.
The only truly unbalanced aspects I can recall in the past three years were things like Para TMs or specific threats such as Sunny Day Moth or Bax. Right now, though, this OM feels like a shadow of what it used to be without it's uniqueness, creativity, and wackiness it once encouraged in teambuilding.
I really hope the current direction regarding balance decisions is reconsidered, though I’m not too optimistic.