Trapping Abilities: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

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Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Sable eye stall teams beat most types of teams, and I feek Gothitelle is healthy to check those teams as they're very difficult to handle and sometimes when I forgot about them I'll find myself auto forfeiting.
 
The only one of those three abilities that I think actually hugely impacts the metagame is Magnet Pull. Magnezone (and to a lesser extent Magneton) are staples on teams that would otherwise have no way to handle things like Skarm, Heatran and Ferro(thorn, if you are running Ferroseed I am appalled).

I would not suggest using Magnezone try and trap Heatran, considering Heatran is a Fire-type and commonly runs the x4 effective Earth Power.

Indeed, Heatran wrecks most trappers. Especially if it runs Substitute.
 
Hm well here goes nothing here is my personal opinion on trapping:
  • First I believe Pursuit to be not broken. First lets look at the offenders. The only common pursuit users in OU are Bisharp, MegaMetagross, Tyranitar, Scizor, and Weavile. All good mons with pursuit as a viable option. Common Targets are psychic and ghosts. ie Gengar, Celebi, Victini, Latia@s Starmie. Gengar can kill those pursuit trappers focus blast, Celebi can baton pass out. Lati@s and starmie can use reflect type or even hp fighting to kill the trappers. Conclusion: Pursuit trapping can trap a few mons effectively at that, but those mons can play around being trapped often enough.
  • Second I believe Arena Trap to be not broken. Again start off by looking at its offenders. Dugtrio, Trapinch, and Diglett. The only remotely broken one is Dugtrio, but even then not really. Dugtrio for one only traps grounded mons. Secondly dugtrio is weak as can be so it rarely beats the stuff it traps. The only things it really beats are Heatran and Tyranitar, which is great for flying types, but I don't believe Dugtrio is relevant enough to be considered broken. Conclusion: The mons with arena trap don't have good enough stats to effectively abuse it.
  • Third I Believe Magnet Pull to be not broken. The only common ou users is Magnezone and Magneton. With Greninja's ban imminent Magneton is losing his main niche. So Magnezone is what you really have to be worried about. It traps all steels, but the only OU steels it really beats are: Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Scizor. Yet, Jirachi runs u-turn a lot and Mag can't even break SPD Jirachi. When trapping scizor you have to watch out for superpower and it can also u-turn out. So it really only traps 2 mons and shaky traps 2 more. Lastly, whenever Magnezone usage rises Skarm and Ferro begin using Shed Shell to to escape, hurting Magnezone more. While trapping these mons can be quite helpful, if those mons aren't on opposing teams mag doesn't pull that much weight. Its good, but ground types can switch in stopping volt switchs and be locked into hp fire or flash cannon isn't good. Conclusion: Magnet Pull traps too few things to be broken.
  • Fourth I am not convinced Shadowtag is broken, but am convinced Gothitelle is. Goth just destroys stalls teams with no effort. Sure other stalls breakers like Manaphy put it work vs stall, but can be played around. Goth can not be played around. If played right (which isn't hard), it comes in kills something then other team sweeps, easy as that. Sure its so so vs offense, but can still put in work trapping things like Keldeo, MegaHeracross. Yet it completely wrecks balance and stall. It can just take out Cresslia, Clefable, Mega Venu, Quag, Chansey, Skarmory, Ammongus, Ferrothorn and those are just the things off the top of my head. Yet, i'm not so convinced the other Shadowtag users are broken. If gothitelle was banned could Gothorita be anywhere near as good as Gothitelle? I really don't know. It could still trap, but with its lower stats would be anywhere near effective? Lastly, i'm not quite convinced Wobbutfett is broken. It is total taunt bait. Its forced to play guessing games with set-up sweepers/mixed attackers. Stall users can just toxic it. Really only things it beats are choiced locked attackers and mons with 4 attacks. It just isn't that effective. Conclusion: I wouldn't really mind if Shadowtag was banned, but really think Gothitelle is the only broken user, but would be open to being proved wrong.
 
Trapping is certainly something a little meta defining... is it broken? No, but I agree goth is. Even her pre-evolution can be a major win condition especially for stall. Trick-rest-CM sets completely setup on stall that uses status move or weak attacks, mega sableye and bro might be the only things on stall that actually counter goth.. sableye just doing it because of calm mind war and avoiding trick with his mega stone. Also fuck those assholes who just spammed rest to PP stall my chansey.

Magnet pull isn't broken, it's pretty ok.. like said above, it has it's downsides. Magnezone, magneton, and magnemite (lol) are easily revenge killed, and only counter specific threats, those threats being ferro (still gets up rocks while switching, leech seed, and knock off with potential shed shell), scizor (superpower, u-turn), and skarmory (whirlwind, shed shell). While you could argue that there is some slight overcentralization and consideration in team building because of this.. steels running shed shell, an otherwise shit item; and teams running a scizor or non-shed shell ferro often always slap some answer to magnezone to support them, but it's not something uncompetitive in the slightest. It definitely does define the metagame giving a lot of pokemon viability taking out specific threats (beedrill particularly) while forcing teams to prepare for it.. but it's not uncompetitive in the slightest as magnet pull is easily worked around.

Arena trap isn't amazing either.. it's users all suck and dugtrio is frailer than beedrill and actually is reliant on sash+reversal.

Pursuit isn't a big problem either, it's pretty rare and the pursuit trappers often don't like switching in only revenge killing. (HP fire latis, magnezone revenge-revenge kill, hp fighting latis, u-turn into a counter, etc.) Bisharp is a coinflip.. sucker punch or pursuit, but otherwise it's perfectly fine and competitive.
 

LeoLancaster

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I think the discussion on whether trapping abilities are uncompetitive or not really shows an aspect of all things uncompetitive which doesn't get noticed often. Even when something is deemed uncompetitive, such as Swagger or Evasion moves, it's usually because of a way to easily abuse it. Swagger was never banned until Prankster + Swagger was available on multiple 'mons; furhter, the two "new" ones (Thundurus and Klefki) are both way better than Liepard (Thundy was banned in BW, hence why I call it "new"). It's not like Swagger Pichu could tear up teams.

This relates to trapping abilities because while they can be called uncompetitive just by principle, they often fall short because the 'mons with access to trapping abilities are usually lackluster. Dugtrio is weak and frail to the point that while it can trap a large slice of the metagame, it can't actually kill anything bar a few select 'mons. I don't think anyone really thinks Arena Trap deserves a ban, but imagine if something like Garchomp received the ability?

This sort of issue came up early XY with the ban of Gengarite. Gothitelle wasn't considered a problem back in BW, just like Swagger wasn't, but the advent of a new abuser(s) which were much more powerful and successful than their weaker counterparts led to a ban. Of course, it could be argued that due to only powerful 'mons with trapping abilities being clearly banworthy, this is just another case of OP/broken. TBH I'm not sure myself.

Finally, I'd like to ask anyone with experience in ADV to describe how trapping affects that metagame, in order to broaden the context to perhaps shed more light on whether trapping abilities are uncompetitive or just situationally broken. Info on how the lack of team preview affects trapping abilities effectiveness and how they're played could be especially helpful. (In case anyone doesn't know, Arena Trap Dugtrio is a top threat in ADV.)
 
I think something that needs to be considered when it comes to trapping is Voltturn, and to a lesser extent, baton pass. I think that the fact that these moves are fairly popular and allow one to play around trappers is something that keeps trappers in check. Even roar and whirlwind can be used to a lesser extent to force the trapper themselves out. I dont know whether or not trapping is broken, but i think discussion of trapping should keep this in mind.
 

Miridy

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is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I think something that needs to be considered when it comes to trapping is Voltturn, and to a lesser extent, baton pass. I think that the fact that these moves are fairly popular and allow one to play around trappers is something that keeps trappers in check. Even roar and whirlwind can be used to a lesser extent to force the trapper themselves out. I dont know whether or not trapping is broken, but i think discussion of trapping should keep this in mind.
Completely agree, a core that comes to my mind it's Mega Lopunny with Baton Pass paired with Gothitelle, mega Lopunny thanks to its speed and coverage troubles more offensive and frailers threats, however it has problems getting past bulkyer threats like say Slowbro, come in Gothitelle with Baton Pass, ready to disable the defensive threat and giving Lopunny a better time.
Another example is Mega Beedrill paired with scarf Magnezone/Magneton, mag being able to trap problematic steels for Beedrill and keeping up the "Volturn Chain"
 

LeoLancaster

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One thing I forgot to mention was that unlike every other thing considered uncompetitive, trapping is not affected even a little bit by RNG. Everything which occurs is completely controlled by the players. Many would argue that this weakens the argument that trapping abilities are uncompetitive. For a fuller explanation of this, see this post. By the way, I would encourage everyone to read that post, because the issue central to that thread has important ramifications for the direction of this thread, especially if it could be definitively answered. (I do realize that it's really long, but it's a good read).
 
I think something that needs to be considered when it comes to trapping is Voltturn, and to a lesser extent, baton pass. I think that the fact that these moves are fairly popular and allow one to play around trappers is something that keeps trappers in check. Even roar and whirlwind can be used to a lesser extent to force the trapper themselves out. I dont know whether or not trapping is broken, but i think discussion of trapping should keep this in mind.
You certainly aren't wrong, but one thing that bugs me about trapping in general is that while VoltTurn and Baton Pass do stop many trappers from doing their job, one must also remember that no one intends to use trappers for killing these threats (if you're using Gothitelle to trap Rotom-W for example, you're doing it wrong). It's hard to say that Roar and Whirlwind can keep them in check either because they aren't used with the intention of trapping those targets. The only exception might be Magnezone trapping Skarmory.

Honestly, I think it's rather hard to figure out if trapping is uncompetitive simply because it is so poorly distributed. The only thing that's been really good in OU that had it was Mega Gengar, and it's almost too good to use as an example. We could figure out that Swagger and Moody were both uncompetitive because there were enough SwagPlay abusers and Moody abusers to see that Swagger and Moody were both pretty uncompetitive. However, most of the other trappers are pretty situational. The proof is in this thread: almost every major complaint complaint about trapping is about Gothitelle, not Shadow Tag. Even Magnezone, arguably considered the most threatening trapper, has been adapted to without much complaint.

I think the other issue in terms of determining whether it's uncompetitive is the way we balance the tier. In Ubers, it was a huge deal because your checks to high-ranked threats are often the difference between having a shot or getting wiped out. However, here in OU and lower tiers we strive to remove centralizing elements like that. This usually results in a tier where the top tier threats have to be prepared for, but so long as the checks you bring weaken those threats to a reasonable degree, revenge killing them is reasonably possible given that you at least still have something that can tank a hit and respond with something that will finish it off.

The last point I want to bring up is this: if every complaint seems to be about Gothitelle, and every hypothetical situation seems to be about Gothitelle, then wouldn't the more reasonable conclusion be that Shadow Tag (and other trapping abilities by extent) isn't uncompetitive, but rather just a strong skill that can easily push a mon over the edge if its overall abilities are too good? It explains more why we seem to complain about Gothitelle but we don't seem to care about any other Shadow Taggers.
 

jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
Ima paraphrase a post I made in the Mega-Gengar suspect thread
A competitive game is played to win - this is what distinguishes what we do here from playing on your cartridge. A competitive game should have winners, but they should not be arbitrary or random - instead, we would like if the winner of a game was determined by the skill of the players involved. Now, skill in Pokemon is not like an athletic event...you can't get more damage out of your moves by working out or something. Every player has complete access to the exact same set of moves and information. So skill in Pokemon is about choices. Every time you build a team or choose a move you are making a series of choices, and a better player shows his skill by making the better choices. This is what it means to be "competitive" in terms of Pokemon.
So, my definition: A competitive game element increases the number of meaningful, balanced choices available to the player.
Meaningful: if a choice has little or no impact on the game, it isn't particularly relevant (i.e. you can choose the gender of your pokemon but that has nearly zero effect).
Balanced: if a single option is so powerful/good/useful as to be the "correct" choice most/all of the time, it isn't much of a choice at all.

...

Applying this definition to Shadow Tag, it seems clear that the ability can only ever remove the number of choices available to you. Even possible countermeasures to STag (eg Shed Shell) require forfeiting a choice (your item). Most importantly, STag removes the single most important choice in competitive Pokemon. As I mentioned earlier, switching and picking matchups is the core functional game element of singles battling. Pokemon is not a series of 1v1 matchups, it is a 6v6 team game, but STag reduces it to the former.
Shadow Tag is uncompetitive as all hell. The only arguments that I've seen defending it relate to the weaknesses of the Pokemon that get the abilities, rather than any merits of the abilities themselves. The only reason it isn't blatantly clear to everybody around that these abilities are uncompetitive is that every Pokemon that gets them is absolutely terrible - I mean, Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are all god-awful Pokemon. Gothitelle is worse than Jynx. Wobbuffet isn't even a Pokemon! It's a GF in-joke like Farfetch'd and Castform! And yet they are viable choices in OU because of these abilities. The second we got a decent Pokemon with Shadow Tag (btw, MGar without STag is MZam with a worse speed tier and a better support movepool) it was the single most broken thing that OU has ever seen.

Why have we not suspected this yet?

I think Arena Trap is uncompetitive for the same reasons as Shadow Tag, but Magnet Pull is probably fine, if somewhat distasteful.
 
Just to get everyone on the same page with regard to what the definition of uncompetitive is, this post by shrang does a great job summing it up. chaos' post below in the same thread is also an interesting read but a little more complicated.
 

jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
I think shrang's definition is poor. Rather than have a whole discussion on that issue here, I've posted in that thread. For now I'd just like to say that we should not be presuming any particular definition of uncompetitiveness since the issue is nowhere near resolved.
 
I think shrang's definition is poor. Rather than have a whole discussion on that issue here, I've posted in that thread. For now I'd just like to say that we should not be presuming any particular definition of uncompetitiveness since the issue is nowhere near resolved.
I'm in favor of establishing that definition, and I disagree with some of the points you made in that thread, mainly that you connect the term I call "healthy" with the concept of diversity, and that's something I strongly disagree with, but you're right that this is not the place to discuss this. Neither is that thread though, as that has a lot of uber bias and philosophy behind it, and this is OU.

In the case that we do not have a solid definition of uncompetitive to go by, the only way to adequately resolve this situation is to either have the council come out and make a statement about why trapping moves are not worthy of a suspect, or to have a suspect and let every person either use their own completely arbitrary definition/choose based on which meta they like better. Either way, something needs to be done as soon as the ORAS bans are over with.
 
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And here's an interesting point that I feel this tread is touching on. We need to separate discussion of trapping abilities from trappers. Whether or not trapping abilities are uncompetitive has nothing to do with how good/shitty a trapper is; it just delays the discussion. It's possible to have a meta with trapping abilities if you ban all the broken trappers, but that doesn't necessarily make these abilities not uncompetitive.

So there are 3 real questions here:
Are trapping abilities, by their nature, uncompetitive?
Does being uncompetitive mean something warrants a ban?
If they aren't ban-worthy and , are there some pokemon that use a trapping ability and become broken?


I'm in favor of establishing that definition,
<snip>
In the case that we do not have a solid definition of uncompetitive to go by, the only way to adequately resolve this situation is to either have the council come out and make a statement about why trapping moves are not worthy of a suspect, or to have a suspect and let every person either use their own completely arbitrary definition/choose based on which meta they like better. Either way, something needs to be done as soon as the ORAS bans are over with.
I agree that we need a definition of competitiveness and some idea of what a healthy meta is. Does diversity mean healthy? It seems that a lot of actions Smogon takes (avoiding over-centralization, establishing multiple tiers, even making Ubers and official tier) indicate this. However, there are plenty of videogames where diversity isn't necessarily seen as necessary for a healthy meta. In Super Smash Bros. Melee, for example, one character (Sheik) is the sole reason why many low-tiered characters are not tournament-viable. They have an unwinnable matchup against her (meaning that she alone stops people from using these characters). However, Sheik has never been banned and never will because the Smash Bros. community doesn't see this as an extensive problem.

Just food for thought.
 

Karxrida

Corruption of Shadows
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Please no one liner posts, and dont discuss banning trapping.
Love how people can't seem to read.

I personally think that each trapper is limited enough that they aren't a huge issue. Gothitelle has issues against more offensive teams, Dugtrio is dependent on its Sash to do its job and is weak as shit, and Magnezone/Magneton have like 3 targets and are almost always choiced. Are they annoying? Definitely, but they aren't as good as Mega Gengar and don't warrant banning. Also I like having Gothitelle around because FUCK STALL.
 
However, there are plenty of videogames where diversity isn't necessarily seen as necessary for a healthy meta. In Super Smash Bros. Melee, for example, one character (Sheik) is the sole reason why many low-tiered characters are not tournament-viable. They have an unwinnable matchup against her (meaning that she alone stops people from using these characters). However, Sheik has never been banned and never will because the Smash Bros. community doesn't see this as an extensive problem.
Well, for starters, this is Pokemon, a turn based RPG where you select 6 monsters to battle each other. Smash Brothers is a fighting game were each person selects just one character and dukes it out.

But I may as well address your Smash Brothers argument anyway. Think Metaknight, who unless I'm mistaken, is the only Smash character to ever be banned.
And why was he banned, exactly? Because he was so good, there was no reason to use anyone else. A Metaknight player would still probably win the tournament anyway. If diversity didn't matter to them, everyone would just of just used Metaknight. But instead, they ban him, so he wouldn't overpower the rest of the roster. This shows that the Smash Community does care about diversity to some degree.
 
Love how people can't seem to read.
Lol, I don't think it's possible to discuss trapping constructively without discussing banning it. It's a very hot button issue, especially in light of recent events (read: Mega Gengar in Ubers) and a lot of people have very strong beliefs on it.

But you're right; I'll refrain from discussing banning trapping.
Also I like having Gothitelle around because FUCK STALL.
You monster! /s
(I play stall)


If diversity didn't matter to them, everyone would just of just used Metaknight. But instead, they ban him, so he wouldn't overpower the rest of the roster. This shows that the Smash Community does care about diversity to some degree.
That's true (and I didn't really make this clear), but I was referring to the idea that a pokemon/fighter can single-handedly kill others, without being the definitive best. Meta Knight and M-Rayquaza pushed out things simply because they were so good, there wasn't reason to run any other characters. Sheik pushes characters out, without being #1. Kinda how Magnezone might not be #1 in OU, but is one of the main reasons Skarmory isn't too popular.
 

AM

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To be frank this really just comes down to preference at this point. Every time these conversations come up people are just using their own arbitrary lines of thinking and assuming one is right or wrong when it still comes down to the fact that these are opinions and the ideology behind them more than likely will cement itself indefinitely. I know MegaScizor asked me briefly on PS about my opinion on the matter so I'll just state some points here. I think ST is suspect worthy but it being ban worthy I don't know and at this point I'm not exactly concerned nor do I care because it comes back to the linear line of thinking that each person conveys in their attitude and messages. This was a hot topic in the Ubers suspect of it but there was a lot of other concerns that applied to the tier itself that doesn't exactly correlate to OU in the same way, such as Ubers philosophy and creating new standards. We, as in the general group of people that have seen its effects, already know that its the abilities that establish these limitations and not really the mons cause in most cases the mons are garbage without their abilities. It wasn't like M-Gengar who had insane power and speed behind it so I know this much to be true in regards to what would be looked at.

Gothitelle and Wobbuffet pretty much apply to the whole Shadow Tag argument. They're the biggest abusers of this and the ability to easily dismantle cores respective to what they handle best Goth being defensive builds, Wobbuffet being Offensive builds. I mean Wobbuffet can theoretically dismantle defensive cores as well as I've seen but most times this is more just using ST to get something in safely for the partner to do something effective. People sort of explained this already so not gonna go into further detail.

Magnezone traps like 4 things in the tier lol or at least relevant ones. I guess it's bad in a sense but the compromise of running Shed Shell on Skarmory + Ferrothorn isn't exactly terrible considering it's choice locked most times and it isn't like Gothitelle and Wobb where they can just trap you and sit on their ass doing w/e they please due to your passiveness. Magnezone doesn't want to be indiscriminately switching into Scizor due to Superpower or just straight up losing momentum from a U-Turn but yeah Magnezone is alright.

Dugtrios trait of Arena Trap only goes so far when you consider it switches into like nothing and is one of those mons that needs a double switch or a Volt-Switch/U-turn to even get in safely. Unless it's something insanely passive like Chansey chances are it's going to take the brunt of a huge blow and in most cases is pretty team specific in handling a specific threat. This imo is one of the worst trappers because its flaws are really out there and exploitable and takes a good amount of support to even utilize well.

Pursuits been already explained not actually sure I need to elaborate on what it does at this point.

So yeah not gonna make a huge rant on core mechanics, the limitations of choices, and a novel of uncompetitiveness or w/e the hell we're calling it these days to suit someones perception of what they believe is healthy or unhealthy. I'll end up being on this thread forever if that started and quite frankly I don't want to be doing that lol.
 
Personally I dislike when people people use Gothitelle as a Trick lead against something slower, which if running Scarf and Timid is base 121 252+ which is pretty much the entire non-mega evolved meta. Against anything but something with a mega stone, a priority Taunt user, a U-turn or Volt Switch user (which will still get scarfed unless using a Scarf themselves) or Talonflame/Weavile/Greninja Trick is very likely to crap on the opposition and kill momentum on offense or defense - and yet since the opponent used it as a lead it was entirely match up dependent so it amounts to taking a completely ridiculous 50-50 gamble, involving no skill and if they don't get a match up they want the can just switch out to a counter.

It's for this reason I really don't like Gothitelle as it encourages taking gambles to play around it (leading with a mega for example when that does nothing for your team or obtaining your win conditions) which feels pretty damn uncompetitive - especially as the gamble the opponent makes (looking at team preview to see what the potential megas are or if they're going to be out-speeded by anything, if not then they're good to go) is lesser than any gambles you have to make. About 70% of Gothitelles I've seen have been used as leads so this is far from an uncommon strategy, it's also exactly what we see in Doughboy's replay. I do appreciate that a Timid Scarf Gothitelle really lacks a punch, but this is more than outweighed by the chance to completely shut something down or restrict it to the point where countering what was a strong pokemon is now trivial. Even though dark mons will OHKO with something like Knock Off, what are you going to be able to do with a Scarf Bisharp? Very little.

Wobbuffet and the other trapping methods I'm fine with. Against bulky psychic or ghost types, Pursuit doesn't do a great deal - it's just another way to rack up residual damage IMO like Fake Out or anything else. Magnezone is used to eliminate a few key pokemon, it's not broad based enough to have the same utility Gothitelle does. Dugtrio doesn't hit very hard and if you remove it's sash so it can't Reversal it's not a harsh threat. Wobbuffet takes risk to use properly, it too can be used as a lead but as it can't choice lock you it's fair easier to play around (hit it with a resisted hit initially to avoid heavy damage from Counter or Mirror Coat then if it doesn't Encore go for the harder hit next turn - not a fool proof strategy but at least you can do something other than become a sitting duck).

I don't even mind Trick in general, as it takes skill and prediction to pull off - or at the very least I know if I'd had made a different play I could have avoided it. Gothitelle, on the other hand, does not require skill and encourages gambles on both sides which favour the Gothitelle user.
 
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So yeah is anything actually gonna be done about Goth? Alot of players are spamming the shit out of this broken garbage now. :\

I dont think anyone in their right minds can honestly say it takes any skill to use effectively and as ive said numerous times, using Goth is basically admitting to having 0 wall breaking skill and taking the easy way out to open up an easy sweep. Every single non mega wall in the game is fucked by Trick or set up on by a either CM and/or Trick or simple struggle stalled by Rest/Trick. How is that healthy for ANY metagame? Mag and Dug dont trap everything and Wobuffet has no offensive presence so if you dont attack it it loses basically. Even if Wobb has Encore to trap you into a non attacking move, at least you dont lose a pokemon for nothing and you arent fucked by Trick and can switch out.

Also arguments like "well i think its healthy to check mega sableye stall" are kinda bad, sorry. Honestly that further backs up my point of using Goth shows poor teambuilding and wallbreaking abilities otherwise.

Its not even just walls Goth fucks, its ANY slow set up sweepers Clef, Manaphy etc etc just to name a few and it actually discourages people from using walls and tanks it can hit for SE too. I also find it ridiculous that you have to use Pursuit or use Shed Shell teams JUST to stop this thing from picking off cores as and when it pleases. :\
 
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