Pokemon like Gliscor are always going to be problematic. If you switch to pory2, you're taking passive damage to hazards and/or weather. Pory2 is your insurance, but the best way is to use a physical sweeper that can hit it with an Ice move that catches Gliscor off guard. For example, Machamp using Facade on the turn it protects, and then using Ice punch the next turn. Hidden Power Ice on physical sweepers works great. The other way is to hit it extremely hard that makes countering impossible. There are some physical threats in TR that Gliscor simply will not be able to force out initially(I.E. Ursaring). Last way is to use trappers. Shadow Tag Gothitelle takes care of Gliscor if you can get it in, and can set-up TR too.
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Other Trick Room Playstyle
- Thread starter Katakiri
- Start date
- Status
I never liked much full Trick Room teams, because as Lee said, they lack tactical flexibility and diversity. However, Trick Room cores can be pretty effective, as long as you don't have more than one Pokemon that is defined by Trick Room. For example, a pretty effective core that i used in 5th gen was OTR Reuniclus and 4 Attacks Sheer Force Conkeldurr with LO. While Conkeldurr may be slower than almost everything, its great bulk and access to priority make him able to be useful with or without TR up.
Another example is Trick Room Focus Sash Alakazam. This Pokemon typically plays as a revenge killer and cleaner, but should the opportunity arise, Alakazam can take any single hit (except from multi-hit moves) and set up Trick Room, allowing you to deal with the threatening sweeper with your slow mons and simultaneously putting you on the counter-offensive.
From the new Pokemon and the old ones that received significant buffs, here are some that strike me as good Pokemon both inside and outside of Trick Room, and could be paired effectively with dedicated Trick Room sweepers such as Reuniclus, Slowing, or Slowbro:
Mega Ampharos
Great bulk, great resistances, dgaf about Talonflame, slow, powerful, with access to Volt Switch. What's not to love? While this guy may be too slow to be a consistently great choice in OU, this problem can be mitigated to a degree by using him in combination with a single Trick Room Pokemon.
Mega Abomasnow
While i haven't used at all the frosty try this gen, i am hearing very good words about it. Most notably, his great wallbreaking power, bulk, and access to priority, could make him good in and outside of Trick Room. I could be wrong though, as this is complete theorymon.
Mega Mawile
Do i really need to explain this one? Mega Mawile is an offensive juggernaut and a very viable choice even outside of Trick Room, where it's only means of mitigating its low Speed is the unreliable Sucker Punch. Imagine what it can do under Trick Room... And it also resists a lot of common priority moves (Brave Bird, Ice Shard, Sucker Punch, Extremespeed), is weak to none, has great physical bulk to take priority, and even has access to its own priority to outrun opposing priority users under Trick Room. Oh, and it resists Dark, one of the most common and troubling weaknesses of most Trick Room users. Easily one of the best Pokemon to pair with Trick Room users.
Crawdaunt
A simple 3 attacks + SD set can wipe out an offensive team all on its own under Trick Room, while having Aqua Jet to OHKO Talonflame before it tries anything smart, and resisting the other common priority moves, such as Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, Aqua Jet, and Bullet Punch. Against balanced teams, Crawdaunt can just maul through their defensive core without Trick Room up, so that your Trick Room user can clean up the remains. Against stall teams, Crawdaunt can set up SD and bring the pain. Another excellent Pokemon to pair with Trick Room users.
The furthest i would go in using a TR core on my team would be: OTR cleaner + Focus Sash Alakazam with Trick Room + Slow powerhouse that can function outside of TR too (Mega Mawile, Crawdaunt, etc). The OTR cleaner plays the role of the late game cleaner, Alakazam the role of the revenge killer, and the bulky powerhouse plays the role of the wallbrekaer, just like a regular offensive team would look like. This way, you can rip the benefits of Trick Room without suffering most of its drawbacks (bad against stall, lack of tactical versatility, problems with setting up SR).
Another example is Trick Room Focus Sash Alakazam. This Pokemon typically plays as a revenge killer and cleaner, but should the opportunity arise, Alakazam can take any single hit (except from multi-hit moves) and set up Trick Room, allowing you to deal with the threatening sweeper with your slow mons and simultaneously putting you on the counter-offensive.
From the new Pokemon and the old ones that received significant buffs, here are some that strike me as good Pokemon both inside and outside of Trick Room, and could be paired effectively with dedicated Trick Room sweepers such as Reuniclus, Slowing, or Slowbro:
Mega Ampharos
Great bulk, great resistances, dgaf about Talonflame, slow, powerful, with access to Volt Switch. What's not to love? While this guy may be too slow to be a consistently great choice in OU, this problem can be mitigated to a degree by using him in combination with a single Trick Room Pokemon.
Mega Abomasnow
While i haven't used at all the frosty try this gen, i am hearing very good words about it. Most notably, his great wallbreaking power, bulk, and access to priority, could make him good in and outside of Trick Room. I could be wrong though, as this is complete theorymon.
Mega Mawile
Do i really need to explain this one? Mega Mawile is an offensive juggernaut and a very viable choice even outside of Trick Room, where it's only means of mitigating its low Speed is the unreliable Sucker Punch. Imagine what it can do under Trick Room... And it also resists a lot of common priority moves (Brave Bird, Ice Shard, Sucker Punch, Extremespeed), is weak to none, has great physical bulk to take priority, and even has access to its own priority to outrun opposing priority users under Trick Room. Oh, and it resists Dark, one of the most common and troubling weaknesses of most Trick Room users. Easily one of the best Pokemon to pair with Trick Room users.
Crawdaunt
A simple 3 attacks + SD set can wipe out an offensive team all on its own under Trick Room, while having Aqua Jet to OHKO Talonflame before it tries anything smart, and resisting the other common priority moves, such as Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, Aqua Jet, and Bullet Punch. Against balanced teams, Crawdaunt can just maul through their defensive core without Trick Room up, so that your Trick Room user can clean up the remains. Against stall teams, Crawdaunt can set up SD and bring the pain. Another excellent Pokemon to pair with Trick Room users.
The furthest i would go in using a TR core on my team would be: OTR cleaner + Focus Sash Alakazam with Trick Room + Slow powerhouse that can function outside of TR too (Mega Mawile, Crawdaunt, etc). The OTR cleaner plays the role of the late game cleaner, Alakazam the role of the revenge killer, and the bulky powerhouse plays the role of the wallbrekaer, just like a regular offensive team would look like. This way, you can rip the benefits of Trick Room without suffering most of its drawbacks (bad against stall, lack of tactical versatility, problems with setting up SR).
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alexwolf said:I never liked much full Trick Room teams, because as Lee said, they lack tactical flexibility and diversity. However, Trick Room cores can be pretty effective, as long as you don't have more than one Pokemon that is defined by Trick Room.
I don't really agree on the whole lacking tactical flexibility and diversity thing. While it's true that mons that learn TR themselves don't really have the "flexiversity" do everything from hazard block to phaze in addition to TR, I don't think they should have to. There are a lot of Pokemon that can do these things just fine while functioning effectively under Trick Room.
The fundamentals for building and playing with or against a successful TR team are quite different from generic OU UU and Ubers teams and that's where I find most people seem to run into issues with these teams, both playing against and with them.
You really need to think out of the "standard moveset" box when dealing with these kinds of teams.
Maniaclyrasist said:What i meant was more about other problems of dedicated TR teams, such as huge loss of momentum when TR is not up, lack of time to set up TR, struggling against set up sweepers and stall teams, etc. The defensive Pokemon in TR teams always have one less slot as they need to use Trick Room, which greatly limits their ability to check boosting threats. Similarly, offensive Pokemon usually don't run set up moves as there just isn't enough time to do so under Trick Room, hence the problem against stall teams.I don't really agree on the whole lacking tactical flexibility and diversity thing. While it's true that mons that learn TR themselves don't really have the "flexiversity" do everything from hazard block to phaze in addition to TR, I don't think they should have to. There are a lot of Pokemon that can do these things just fine while functioning effectively under Trick Room.
The fundamentals for building and playing with or against a successful TR team are quite different from generic OU UU and Ubers teams and that's where I find most people seem to run into issues with these teams, both playing against and with them.
You really need to think out of the "standard moveset" box when dealing with these kinds of teams.
acestriker19 said:I would love the conversation to talk about potential solutions trick teams can use to beat defensively oriented teams because this is where the issues truly lie and brainstorming would truly be appreciated.
Mostly all of the mons Alexwolf listed also have good use against defensive teams, whether for their wallbreaking power or their utility in knock off/volt switch. Defensive teams are a lot less effective if you can knock off a few key items (eviolite chansey and porygon2, assault vest, lefties in general). Bisharp's already proven himself as an amazing 'mon this meta, and he's got a few things that work for him on a Trick Room team in strong priority, knock off, low base speed, and insane power right off the bat. He's useful in and out of Trick Room and he's certainly a thorn in defensive teams' sides.
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Ogami said:Stealth Rock is a serious problem, as Lee said, because it's so hard to find the time to set it. I know this is kinda blasphemous, but maybe it's more of a detriment to try and fit a viable SR setter on a Trick Room team than it is to use another poke that adds offensive/defensive merit to the team. There are very few SR setters that I would want to run on a trick room team and starts to pigeon hole you.
A serious lack of good offensive setters is tough on most teams, and worse yet is the difficulty most setters have in creating momentum once TR is up. I'm very interested in looking into setters and sweepers that have access to volt-turn, easing prediction and giving setters more safe switch ins to activate another room.
If I could offer a bit of theorymon, I have 2 possible suggestions as to pokemon that could set up SR on TR teams that could hold their own in terms of offensive momentum. One would be Excadrill, although slightly fast at base 88 speed, has a respectable amount of attack and bulk (well, HP at the very least), while EdgeQuake would hit most of the meta hard off its base 135 attack combined with mold breaker to help get past more difficult targets (Rotom-W) and allows you to set SR in the face of magic bouncers (since last I checked, mold breaker negates magic bounce). The priority weaknesses are unfortunate though...
The second and stranger suggestion I have would be Bisharp, who gets SR as a BW2 tutor move. Although not overly bulky, its typing and investING bulk due to TR not requiring speed investment makes it reasonable to get in on resisted hits, while having the ability to be useful out of TR due to sucker punch. The nice part is the only mon I can realistically see removing hazards from in front of you is excadrill, donphan and megablastoise, all who have to take care if they start losing too much health so as to become vulnerable to sucker punch. Starmie gets blown apart by sucker punch, while tentacruel and forretress don't hit hard enough to threaten you and hate losing their items to knock off. Defog is obvious suicide against bisharp, so there's not much that can come in to spin/defog when you're out laying hazards. The bigger problem here is 4MSS, as bisharp really doesn't want to lose any of its moves to accommodate SR.
acestriker19 said:Dont u mean it is a 'fairy' good tr setterOh well I guess I made the dumb mistake this time. Yeah base 60 is definately slow enough to be usable and it gets trick room. I'm gonna have to use sylveon now fairy is a very good complement to other Trick Room setters.
Bulky wallbreakers that scare the shit out of everything definitely seem like one key to understanding trick room. This gen has been kind to bulky attackers and the pokemon Alexwolf listed are definitely good examples, although I am suspect of Mega-Ampharos. I've used him, and ground types blocking volt switch/thunderbolt is a huge boner. Yes, there is prediction, but with how much work it takes to set up a TR and get him in, I don't like it. It's an unfavorable place you put yourself in using an attacking type that is so easy to sponge for a turn, which means so much more because of TR. Other than that, they're all extremely solid choices. I've been using mega-mawile personally and loving it. Her and Kyurem-B (seriously, if you're looking for a new trick room sweeper try out the set I posted a bit ago, it's been a wrecking ball) have definitely proven that it is important to have merit outside of TR. I'm curious to see how much a TR team should be able to function outside of TR. I could definitely see a line being crossed where you might as well not be a TR team at all. IMO it's better to go all the way and trust it can work with good piloting than concoct a team that can do two things alright. I don't think TR is the place for balance
This then brings up some fundemental questions to my mind. What is the difference between bulky wallbreakers in Trick Room teams, and the wallbreakers found in balanced and bulky offensive teams? What does trick room bring to the table, and how does it change the nature of those wallbreakers? How do your TR setters compare in support to the pokemon used to support similar if not the same wallbreakers in non TR teams? Maybe these questions are very base, but I think it's good to start from the bottom more than once.
How aggressive does a TR team need to be? I've had the most success with TR teams that trade pokemon often and whittle down both teams to a favorable matchup under TR to end it. I hate to have to set more than 3 Trick Room, if I even can. For this mentality, I see Cresselia as very close to a trick room staple. She's got amazing mixed bulk allowing her to set up in the face of SE hits, and lunar dance is a godsend for how offensively i like to play the team. What I love the most about the move is that because it's reviving something into TR it's basically like getting a kill or more. In this sense, Cresselia's support equates more clearly to killing power than status/ screens/ memento/ and other support like that. When I get a lunar dance off I count every kill I get afterwards to Cresselia because she made it happen. When played right it's like having an extra half a pokemon.
Since Lunar Dance is Cress's signature move I look to Healing Wish as an alternative to add more options to this kind of strategy. I'm starting to wonder if two lunar dance/ healing wish setters might be a decent idea.
The only pokes that seem viable to me for this job are, all with speed tiers that push it but I'm willing to try:
Gardevoir
Jirachi
Celebi
Any thoughts on a double Lunar Dance / Healing Wish setting core? Lategame I think it is the best way to bring in a sweeper with as many turns as possible. What I'm really interested in is being able to use it midgame without entirely throwing away one of the best trump cards I've seen a trick room team be able to employ. I like to save my cress for the late game where she really shines so it interests me in adding flexibility to the move's use.
On SR setters:
I put SR on my mawile since I was rarely using the fourth coverage move. It's actually been a pretty effective setter because of how many switches it causes. The fact that it hits so hard means it can often afford to spend one turn not doing damage. This takes the place of substitute or swords dance, which arguably makes her less dangerous, but SR brings too much to the table for the whole team. It seems like a fair tradeoff so far
This is actually in line with silenced suggestion of SR Bisharp which I really like. I've run an assault vest bisharp with definite success, and it has just enough bulk to not roll over to everything. Maybe something like this?
Bisharp@Dread Plate/Life Orb (I would go with dread to preserve some bulk personally, but LO might be better since LO Bisharp is what really threatens most teams)
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Hp / 252 Attack / 4 Def Brave
-Stealth Rock
-Knock Off
-Sucker Punch
-Iron Head
It's a pretty simple switch for sure, but I love it in theory. Laying SR instead of setting up with sub or sd. I've never really liked setup bisharp though, so it's not a big loss in my mind. I love that it matches up favorably with most things that want to remove status.
My problem with Excadrill is that it is walled by a lot of common physical walls which is not where a TR threat should be IMO. If your physical attacker is losing to Gliscor/Landorus-T or the steels I think you're doing something wrong. They steal way too much momentum to be that weak to them.
Edit: Wrong your. Damn it
This then brings up some fundemental questions to my mind. What is the difference between bulky wallbreakers in Trick Room teams, and the wallbreakers found in balanced and bulky offensive teams? What does trick room bring to the table, and how does it change the nature of those wallbreakers? How do your TR setters compare in support to the pokemon used to support similar if not the same wallbreakers in non TR teams? Maybe these questions are very base, but I think it's good to start from the bottom more than once.
How aggressive does a TR team need to be? I've had the most success with TR teams that trade pokemon often and whittle down both teams to a favorable matchup under TR to end it. I hate to have to set more than 3 Trick Room, if I even can. For this mentality, I see Cresselia as very close to a trick room staple. She's got amazing mixed bulk allowing her to set up in the face of SE hits, and lunar dance is a godsend for how offensively i like to play the team. What I love the most about the move is that because it's reviving something into TR it's basically like getting a kill or more. In this sense, Cresselia's support equates more clearly to killing power than status/ screens/ memento/ and other support like that. When I get a lunar dance off I count every kill I get afterwards to Cresselia because she made it happen. When played right it's like having an extra half a pokemon.
Since Lunar Dance is Cress's signature move I look to Healing Wish as an alternative to add more options to this kind of strategy. I'm starting to wonder if two lunar dance/ healing wish setters might be a decent idea.
The only pokes that seem viable to me for this job are, all with speed tiers that push it but I'm willing to try:
Gardevoir
Jirachi
Celebi
Any thoughts on a double Lunar Dance / Healing Wish setting core? Lategame I think it is the best way to bring in a sweeper with as many turns as possible. What I'm really interested in is being able to use it midgame without entirely throwing away one of the best trump cards I've seen a trick room team be able to employ. I like to save my cress for the late game where she really shines so it interests me in adding flexibility to the move's use.
On SR setters:
I put SR on my mawile since I was rarely using the fourth coverage move. It's actually been a pretty effective setter because of how many switches it causes. The fact that it hits so hard means it can often afford to spend one turn not doing damage. This takes the place of substitute or swords dance, which arguably makes her less dangerous, but SR brings too much to the table for the whole team. It seems like a fair tradeoff so far
This is actually in line with silenced suggestion of SR Bisharp which I really like. I've run an assault vest bisharp with definite success, and it has just enough bulk to not roll over to everything. Maybe something like this?
Bisharp@Dread Plate/Life Orb (I would go with dread to preserve some bulk personally, but LO might be better since LO Bisharp is what really threatens most teams)
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Hp / 252 Attack / 4 Def Brave
-Stealth Rock
-Knock Off
-Sucker Punch
-Iron Head
It's a pretty simple switch for sure, but I love it in theory. Laying SR instead of setting up with sub or sd. I've never really liked setup bisharp though, so it's not a big loss in my mind. I love that it matches up favorably with most things that want to remove status.
My problem with Excadrill is that it is walled by a lot of common physical walls which is not where a TR threat should be IMO. If your physical attacker is losing to Gliscor/Landorus-T or the steels I think you're doing something wrong. They steal way too much momentum to be that weak to them.
Edit: Wrong your. Damn it
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Ogami: My bad for forgetting about Gliscor and Lando-T, probably should've realised that. I was too busy thinking about Edgequake being good in general :P
As for the bisharp set, I pretty much agree with what you've done, and dread plate seems better for it. The only gripe I have is the lack of SD, but I can't justify in my mind dropping anything else for rocks, since all its moves are that important. Then again, I like megamawile as a better suggestion. I didn't even think to check that for rocks.
As for the bisharp set, I pretty much agree with what you've done, and dread plate seems better for it. The only gripe I have is the lack of SD, but I can't justify in my mind dropping anything else for rocks, since all its moves are that important. Then again, I like megamawile as a better suggestion. I didn't even think to check that for rocks.
Silenced: Definitely no need to apologize for suggesting new things. That's what makes this all tick. For teams that want a different mega, Bisharp seems like a really solid option. If I wasn't so in love with Mega-Mawile then I'd try it. I have been itching to use Mega-Abomasnow (anyone else think his design is cool as hell?) so maybe I'll return to my baby bisharp.
Any thoughts on constructing a threat list for Trick Room teams? Not general strategies like stall, because of course that is threatening. Some sort of list of popular pokemon that really cause Trick Room teams issues.
Any thoughts on constructing a threat list for Trick Room teams? Not general strategies like stall, because of course that is threatening. Some sort of list of popular pokemon that really cause Trick Room teams issues.
Ogami said:Bulky wallbreakers that scare the shit out of everything definitely seem like one key to understanding trick room. This gen has been kind to bulky attackers and the pokemon Alexwolf listed are definitely good examples, although I am suspect of Mega-Ampharos. I've used him, and ground types blocking volt switch/thunderbolt is a huge boner. Yes, there is prediction, but with how much work it takes to set up a TR and get him in, I don't like it. It's an unfavorable place you put yourself in using an attacking type that is so easy to sponge for a turn, which means so much more because of TR. \
Mega Ampharos is definitely an example of how a low speed tier and high power with good bulk does not guarantee a good Trick Room sweeper. M-Amph's coverage is definitely lacking relying heavily on focus miss to get the coverage it needs against common Earthquakers like Excadrill. Signal Beam, Dragon Pulse and Power Gem while good enough coverage to get through the Johto Region it is not good enough to combat an intelligent player who can predict an electric attack and bring in a Ground Type which both wastes a TR turn and could potentially threaten Ampharos out and without relying on focus miss Ampharos' coverage can't hit more than neutrally on a ground type foe (Excadrill resists all its other moves). Everybody and their mother has used Ampharos in vanilla pokemon so even a new competitive player knows the coverage Ampharos carries, knows its stats and knows it weaknesses. All of this makes Ampharos incredibly predictable almost criminally so. The only way you could make Mega-Ampharos unpredictable is to try to run it mixed use both sides to give it the coverage it needs but that leads me into my second point:
Despite his greater Special Attack and Bulk Eelektross far and away outclasses Mega-Ampharos in Trick Room. Unlike Mega-Ampharos, Eelektross is incredibly unpredictable with over 100 in both Attack in Special Attack and a movepool (over 133 cause it can carry Life Orb) that is stupidly large as I've said before. Eelektross does Trick Room sweeping better because with its immense movepool it can hit SE on anything it wants and often the opponent will not know what to do when you wreck things that are considered counters to other powerful Electric types in the tier (I.E. Tyranitar, Blissey, Rotom-W, Excadrill (If you can catch a Mold Breaker on the switch with fire/fighting coverage), Mamoswine, Hippodown). Not only that but you don't need to waste a Mega slot so can keep it open for things like Mega-Mawile or Abomasnow. Eelektross' typing plus ability give it no weaknesses for the opponent (except Mold Breaker Excadrill) to exploit so even outside of Trick Room it will often cripple or trade 1 for 1 with the Pokemon it opposes. This is the set that I run that takes advantage of the fact that Eelektross draws in counters that don't actually threaten it such as the ones I listed above.
Eelektross @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 SDef (I sometimes lead with Eelektross and I don't want it to die to Genesect's U-Turn) / 0 Spd
- Volt Switch
- Giga Drain
- Flamethrower
- Superpower
The only reason you should use Mega-Ampharos is if you really, really, really need heal bell support on your Trick Room team.
Ogami said:Since Lunar Dance is Cress's signature move I look to Healing Wish as an alternative to add more options to this kind of strategy. I'm starting to wonder if two lunar dance/ healing wish setters might be a decent idea.
The only pokes that seem viable to me for this job are, all with speed tiers that push it but I'm willing to try:
Gardevoir
Jirachi
Celebi
Any thoughts on a double Lunar Dance / Healing Wish setting core? Lategame I think it is the best way to bring in a sweeper with as many turns as possible. What I'm really interested in is being able to use it midgame without entirely throwing away one of the best trump cards I've seen a trick room team be able to employ. I like to save my cress for the late game where she really shines so it interests me in adding flexibility to the move's use.
Healing Wishers are definitely viable in Trick Room but much like Explosion mons but to give up one of your 3 moveslots for a one time use move hurts. With Cresselia you either have to give up reliable bolt-beam coverage or reliable recovery in moonlight. I tried Lunar Dance Cresselia and I didn't like it because how I build my Trick Room teams is to try to build a defensive core of setters and sweepers so that no matter what move may come I have a reliable switch to set up Trick Room and a reliable switch to sweep with when its already up and because of this I most often will have Cress out to set up Trick Room when my sweeping core hasn't even come out yet and with 2 moveslots I was unable to force the mon in front of me out and secure a safe switch into one of my sweepers forcing me to either commit seppuku at near full Hp to bring out my sweeper or sack a sweeper to bring out another one.
It really depends on how you structure your trick room but I feel that Healing Wish + Trick Room is great if your sweepers are the ones you are worried about dying but usually its the other way around your sweepers live but are worried about the setters not living long enough to reset Trick Room. I wish there were some viable Trick Room sweepers that could use Healing Wish but unfortunately none come to mind
midend said:Dont u mean it is a 'fairy' good tr setter
Nice Pun, but I'm an idiot Slyveon can't even learn Trick Room lol. Damnit Troll Freak you make a incredibly slow Eeveloution that seems like it would be able to do the dimension twisting necessary to set up Trick Room (If Aromatisse can why not Sylveon), but only the incredibly fast Espeon gets Trick Room. I am weeping a thousand manly tears.
Ogami said:Any thoughts on constructing a threat list for Trick Room teams? Not general strategies like stall, because of course that is threatening. Some sort of list of popular pokemon that really cause Trick Room teams issues.
Great idea I'm bored so that I'll start work one a well formatted list of what I feel are some of the worst common Trick Room party poopers. It'll start some good conversation
This list is my view on common OU individual pokemon that threaten Trick Room teams. Feel free to add comments about how to counter them or potential candidates for this list
Trick Room Threat List
Heatran
Summary
Packing a lot of useful resistances along with a great defensive stats, Heatran walls any Trick Room sweeper who does not carry a strong Fighting, Water or Ground move. Unfortunately it is difficult to bring in these types because when Heatran uses Lava Plume it can potentially burn your sweeper. At 1900+ Stalltran becomes very common with both protect and toxic (preventing setters from wanting to come in), Heatran can eat as much momentum as it can leftovers. Fortunately, Heatran lacks reliable recovery so if you score a big hit on it and fail to OHKO, it probably will not recover.
Potential Solutions
Non-toxic Heatrans are easy enough to check with specially defensive setters who can chip away at its health and heal up the damage but one has to careful to not get toxiced. Stalltrans are difficult to counter because every time you switch in a mon such as Conkeldurr who can obviously destroy Heatran it switches out forcing you to try to block Stalltran yet again, leaving sweepers that are hard walled by Stalltran completely useless until he's dead. Feel free to add your own suggestions on how to counter Stalltran.
Charizard X and Y
Summary
The main problem with the Zards is Trick Room's inability to get/keep Stealth Rocks on the field. Charizard itself is incredibly unpredictable there is about a 50/50 on its two potential mega evolutions according to usage stats which makes it hard to wall if you guess wrong you might lose a setter.
A good evaluation of the opponents team can help you to tell which Zard is used for instance if the opponent is also using a Dragonite they probably have no use for Zard X or if the opponent is using Chlorophyll mons (Zard Y) or has an overabunace of special sweepers (Zard X) these thing can help in improving the countering odds against Charizard.
Summary: Charizard X
Charizard X is simultaneously an incredibly strong wallbreaker and set-up sweeper. Unboosted Flare Blitzes can take a large chunk out of even the most defensive of Trick Room Setters. Like Heatran Charizard X has very few weaknesses, Ground and Dragon. If you fail to set up Trick Room against Zard X and instead let it get in 1 or 2 dragon dances you will find yourself unable to take his attacks and probably lose the match, but if you do set up Trick Room the setter you used is probably close to dead and now the issue is finding a move to OHKO Charizard X.
Potential Solutions
Keeping Rocks on the field is one part of solution nailing Charizard X as soon as he switches in. Charizard X is in my experience lead with by the opponent to mega evolve and avoid taking 50% on rocks later in the match so knowing this you can lead with your counter and force Zard X out (provided you even know it is a Zard X) giving you some time to set up rocks or just kill it outright. Besides that a player needs to make sure to not give Zard X free turns while trick room isn't up because a +1 Zard X can wreck just about anything. Slowbro can counter Charizard X but the unpredictability makes it difficult to send him in before Zard mega evolves because a Zard Y Solarbeam will destroy Slowbro.
Summary: Charizard Y
A sun-boosted Fire Blast from Charizard Y is a powerful force and when nothing can outspeed it, it can be very difficult to threaten out. Solarbeam, Fire Blast and Air Slash is very good coverage and can hit all types neutrally. Though, unless you're resistant to fire Zard Y is better off spamming fire blast in the sun than using coverage which makes it hard to get a decent switch in.
Potential Solutions
Again keeping rocks on the field is vitally important as it prevents Charizard Y from reentering to set up sun again. Porygon2, Slowking when max invested have enough special bulk to set up Trick Room and either recover stall the five turns of sunlight or switch to a sweeper. Cresselia even when uninvested can only be 3HKO by fire blast. Azumarill is guaranteed to survive a Solar Beam if it carries an assault vest or invests 132 evs in sp. defense and can OHKO with a waterfall. Mega Ampharos I begrudgingly admit resists all its staple moves except focus miss and can take it out with a T-Bolt.
(I'll add more later)
Trick Room Threat List
Heatran
Summary
Packing a lot of useful resistances along with a great defensive stats, Heatran walls any Trick Room sweeper who does not carry a strong Fighting, Water or Ground move. Unfortunately it is difficult to bring in these types because when Heatran uses Lava Plume it can potentially burn your sweeper. At 1900+ Stalltran becomes very common with both protect and toxic (preventing setters from wanting to come in), Heatran can eat as much momentum as it can leftovers. Fortunately, Heatran lacks reliable recovery so if you score a big hit on it and fail to OHKO, it probably will not recover.
Potential Solutions
Non-toxic Heatrans are easy enough to check with specially defensive setters who can chip away at its health and heal up the damage but one has to careful to not get toxiced. Stalltrans are difficult to counter because every time you switch in a mon such as Conkeldurr who can obviously destroy Heatran it switches out forcing you to try to block Stalltran yet again, leaving sweepers that are hard walled by Stalltran completely useless until he's dead. Feel free to add your own suggestions on how to counter Stalltran.
Charizard X and Y
Summary
The main problem with the Zards is Trick Room's inability to get/keep Stealth Rocks on the field. Charizard itself is incredibly unpredictable there is about a 50/50 on its two potential mega evolutions according to usage stats which makes it hard to wall if you guess wrong you might lose a setter.
A good evaluation of the opponents team can help you to tell which Zard is used for instance if the opponent is also using a Dragonite they probably have no use for Zard X or if the opponent is using Chlorophyll mons (Zard Y) or has an overabunace of special sweepers (Zard X) these thing can help in improving the countering odds against Charizard.
Summary: Charizard X
Charizard X is simultaneously an incredibly strong wallbreaker and set-up sweeper. Unboosted Flare Blitzes can take a large chunk out of even the most defensive of Trick Room Setters. Like Heatran Charizard X has very few weaknesses, Ground and Dragon. If you fail to set up Trick Room against Zard X and instead let it get in 1 or 2 dragon dances you will find yourself unable to take his attacks and probably lose the match, but if you do set up Trick Room the setter you used is probably close to dead and now the issue is finding a move to OHKO Charizard X.
Potential Solutions
Keeping Rocks on the field is one part of solution nailing Charizard X as soon as he switches in. Charizard X is in my experience lead with by the opponent to mega evolve and avoid taking 50% on rocks later in the match so knowing this you can lead with your counter and force Zard X out (provided you even know it is a Zard X) giving you some time to set up rocks or just kill it outright. Besides that a player needs to make sure to not give Zard X free turns while trick room isn't up because a +1 Zard X can wreck just about anything. Slowbro can counter Charizard X but the unpredictability makes it difficult to send him in before Zard mega evolves because a Zard Y Solarbeam will destroy Slowbro.
Summary: Charizard Y
A sun-boosted Fire Blast from Charizard Y is a powerful force and when nothing can outspeed it, it can be very difficult to threaten out. Solarbeam, Fire Blast and Air Slash is very good coverage and can hit all types neutrally. Though, unless you're resistant to fire Zard Y is better off spamming fire blast in the sun than using coverage which makes it hard to get a decent switch in.
Potential Solutions
Again keeping rocks on the field is vitally important as it prevents Charizard Y from reentering to set up sun again. Porygon2, Slowking when max invested have enough special bulk to set up Trick Room and either recover stall the five turns of sunlight or switch to a sweeper. Cresselia even when uninvested can only be 3HKO by fire blast. Azumarill is guaranteed to survive a Solar Beam if it carries an assault vest or invests 132 evs in sp. defense and can OHKO with a waterfall. Mega Ampharos I begrudgingly admit resists all its staple moves except focus miss and can take it out with a T-Bolt.
(I'll add more later)
I consider myself one of the best TR players in BW UU (imo the best tier for this playstyle). That said, competition is basically non-existant :P Now, I've tried to replicate this in XY OU, but ran into some major issues you didn't have last gen:
EDIT: If you're having trouble facing Trick Room, get a Protect user or two. It's really obnoxious to face as a TR user, take it from me. The pressure to keep TR up is very high and Protect makes it so much harder.
Also, never use Explosion/Healing Wish on a TR team. Every team member is valuable and should be kept alive at all costs so they can setup/abuse the TR at a later stage. It's a big no-no. Don't do it. Ever.
- Biggest problem of all: the Dark/Ghost buff or the Steel nerf or whatever you want to call it. Bronzong, once the most reliable TR setter available (and conveniently setting up SR as well) is now significantly nerfed. In fact, all the common TR setters, like Reuniclus, Cofagrigus, Victini, Xatu, Chandelure... all share weaknesses to Dark and Ghost. Why is this such a big a problem? Because alternatives are few and far between. Porygon2 is the best exception to the rule, but this puts a lot of pressure on him. It doesn't like taking Knock Off for sure, and Focus Blasts from Gengar will also leave a mark. Tyranitar, Aegislash, Gengar, Greninja, Bisharp, Mandibuzz, all threatening Dark/Ghosts that stop you from reliably getting up Trick Room.
- Adaptability Dragalge is unreleased: This sucks, as Dragalge provides so many useful resistances and its Draco Meteor hits insanely hard with Adaptability. It's dirt slow too, which is good for TR teams. It proved to be insanely powerful in the short time that I got to use it on PO.
- Power creep: Well this is kind off an obvious one, but really. Stuff like Mega Lucario hits pretty damn hard and if that thing gets to setup a SD while you don't have TR up, then prepare to be swept. Trick Room, even with Prankster, is always used last so it's difficult to pull off sometimes.
- Limited amount of good TR users: In BW UU, Trick Room was great because everything you needed was available, and very viable too. Bronzong, Porygon2, Cofagrigus, Xatu, Victini, Chandelure, pick your poison and you're good to go. In XY OU, this is a little different. Forget Xatu: Rotom-W and Genesect are everywhere, and Landorus-T wrecks you with Stone Edge. This sucks because in BW UU Xatu was your insurance against Stall: it kept hazards of the field like no other, which is key in TR as you switch around a lot. Now it's just not viable anymore. OTR Cofagrigus? Forget it, Mandibuzz thinks you're a joke. Even Porygon2 doesn't cut it anymore most of the time.
EDIT: If you're having trouble facing Trick Room, get a Protect user or two. It's really obnoxious to face as a TR user, take it from me. The pressure to keep TR up is very high and Protect makes it so much harder.
Also, never use Explosion/Healing Wish on a TR team. Every team member is valuable and should be kept alive at all costs so they can setup/abuse the TR at a later stage. It's a big no-no. Don't do it. Ever.
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acestriker19 said:If u think about it in trick room espeon makes for a good slow baton passer for a tr sweeper to come in safelyMega Ampharos is definitely an example of how a low speed tier and high power with good bulk does not guarantee a good Trick Room sweeper. M-Amph's coverage is definitely lacking relying heavily on focus miss to get the coverage it needs against common Earthquakers like Excadrill. Signal Beam, Dragon Pulse and Power Gem while good enough coverage to get through the Johto Region it is not good enough to combat an intelligent player who can predict an electric attack and bring in a Ground Type which both wastes a TR turn and could potentially threaten Ampharos out and without relying on focus miss Ampharos' coverage can't hit more than neutrally on a ground type foe (Excadrill resists all its other moves). Everybody and their mother has used Ampharos in vanilla pokemon so even a new competitive player knows the coverage Ampharos carries, knows its stats and knows it weaknesses. All of this makes Ampharos incredibly predictable almost criminally so. The only way you could make Mega-Ampharos unpredictable is to try to run it mixed use both sides to give it the coverage it needs but that leads me into my second point:
Despite his greater Special Attack and Bulk Eelektross far and away outclasses Mega-Ampharos in Trick Room. Unlike Mega-Ampharos, Eelektross is incredibly unpredictable with over 100 in both Attack in Special Attack and a movepool (over 133 cause it can carry Life Orb) that is stupidly large as I've said before. Eelektross does Trick Room sweeping better because with its immense movepool it can hit SE on anything it wants and often the opponent will not know what to do when you wreck things that are considered counters to other powerful Electric types in the tier (I.E. Tyranitar, Blissey, Rotom-W, Excadrill (If you can catch a Mold Breaker on the switch with fire/fighting coverage), Mamoswine, Hippodown). Not only that but you don't need to waste a Mega slot so can keep it open for things like Mega-Mawile or Abomasnow. Eelektross' typing plus ability give it no weaknesses for the opponent (except Mold Breaker Excadrill) to exploit so even outside of Trick Room it will often cripple or trade 1 for 1 with the Pokemon it opposes. This is the set that I run that takes advantage of the fact that Eelektross draws in counters that don't actually threaten it such as the ones I listed above.
Eelektross @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 SDef (I sometimes lead with Eelektross and I don't want it to die to Genesect's U-Turn) / 0 Spd
- Volt Switch
- Giga Drain
- Flamethrower
- Superpower
The only reason you should use Mega-Ampharos is if you really, really, really need heal bell support on your Trick Room team.
Healing Wishers are definitely viable in Trick Room but much like Explosion mons but to give up one of your 3 moveslots for a one time use move hurts. With Cresselia you either have to give up reliable bolt-beam coverage or reliable recovery in moonlight. I tried Lunar Dance Cresselia and I didn't like it because how I build my Trick Room teams is to try to build a defensive core of setters and sweepers so that no matter what move may come I have a reliable switch to set up Trick Room and a reliable switch to sweep with when its already up and because of this I most often will have Cress out to set up Trick Room when my sweeping core hasn't even come out yet and with 2 moveslots I was unable to force the mon in front of me out and secure a safe switch into one of my sweepers forcing me to either commit seppuku at near full Hp to bring out my sweeper or sack a sweeper to bring out another one.
It really depends on how you structure your trick room but I feel that Healing Wish + Trick Room is great if your sweepers are the ones you are worried about dying but usually its the other way around your sweepers live but are worried about the setters not living long enough to reset Trick Room. I wish there were some viable Trick Room sweepers that could use Healing Wish but unfortunately none come to mind
Nice Pun, but I'm an idiot Slyveon can't even learn Trick Room lol. Damnit Troll Freak you make a incredibly slow Eeveloution that seems like it would be able to do the dimension twisting necessary to set up Trick Room (If Aromatisse can why not Sylveon), but only the incredibly fast Espeon gets Trick Room. I am weeping a thousand manly tears.
Great idea I'm bored so that I'll start work one a well formatted list of what I feel are some of the worst common Trick Room party poopers. It'll start some good conversation
Though such a technique would require a spread too gimmicky to pull off, considering that espeon has subpar defenses
Oh right, one other weird yet plausible SR setter I have theorymonned for TR, which could work if we're raising the bar for acceptable base speeds.
Landorus-T @ ????? (Either lefties or possibly soft sand to boost EQ I'm not sure. E-belt may also help)
Intimidate
Brave 252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 SpA
30 Def, 30 SpA, 0 Spe
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-Stealth Rock
-Hidden Power Ice/U-turn
I believe Lando-T could help TR teams in a number of ways. It has enough SpA and the right typing to viably take on irritants such as opposing lando-T and gliscor with hidden power ice, while smacking anything not named breloom very hard with EdgeQuake. I have listed U-turn as a slash incase the idea of pivoting out of those two troublesome pokemon is more appealing (especially if you could get to a TR setter that doesn't overly care about either of those two mons such as Trace P2)
Asides from setting SR, using its huge base 145 atk and solid typing and just enough coverage to help hit teams hard, you also have access to something viable with Intimidate. This is the sort of thing TR would have killed for in previous generations (without resorting to sub-par pokemon) and would help significantly in dealing with physical boosters, especially dangerous mons like physical luke (well...assuming it lacks ice punch...)
With a -spe 0 IV nature (IMPORTANT: If someone could help with HP damage output here in regards to IV's, that would seriously help) you hit a speed of 168. Sadly that's a bit too fast against certain pokemon such as bulky scizor, but its still reasonably slow)
Oh right, damage calcs (I hope AV Lando-T isn't a thing...)
4 SpA Landorus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gliscor: 172-204 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO (Although that isn't the standard gliscor spread, so it should be a 2HKO)
4 SpA Landorus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 216-256 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hopefully that is useful to anyone trying to make a TR team. One of these days I'll get around to actually testing the stuff I theorymon...one of these days...
Landorus-T @ ????? (Either lefties or possibly soft sand to boost EQ I'm not sure. E-belt may also help)
Intimidate
Brave 252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 SpA
30 Def, 30 SpA, 0 Spe
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-Stealth Rock
-Hidden Power Ice/U-turn
I believe Lando-T could help TR teams in a number of ways. It has enough SpA and the right typing to viably take on irritants such as opposing lando-T and gliscor with hidden power ice, while smacking anything not named breloom very hard with EdgeQuake. I have listed U-turn as a slash incase the idea of pivoting out of those two troublesome pokemon is more appealing (especially if you could get to a TR setter that doesn't overly care about either of those two mons such as Trace P2)
Asides from setting SR, using its huge base 145 atk and solid typing and just enough coverage to help hit teams hard, you also have access to something viable with Intimidate. This is the sort of thing TR would have killed for in previous generations (without resorting to sub-par pokemon) and would help significantly in dealing with physical boosters, especially dangerous mons like physical luke (well...assuming it lacks ice punch...)
With a -spe 0 IV nature (IMPORTANT: If someone could help with HP damage output here in regards to IV's, that would seriously help) you hit a speed of 168. Sadly that's a bit too fast against certain pokemon such as bulky scizor, but its still reasonably slow)
Oh right, damage calcs (I hope AV Lando-T isn't a thing...)
4 SpA Landorus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gliscor: 172-204 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO (Although that isn't the standard gliscor spread, so it should be a 2HKO)
4 SpA Landorus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 216-256 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hopefully that is useful to anyone trying to make a TR team. One of these days I'll get around to actually testing the stuff I theorymon...one of these days...
I just posted this in the Malamar thread but I figured you guys are going to be the ones to try this if anyone does:
Malamar @ Focus Sash or Lum Berry | Contrary
Brave | 252 Hp / 252 Atk / 4 Def
-Taunt
-Trick Room
-Superpower
-Destiny Bond
The idea is pretty obvious, get trick room up while preventing hazards from being put up. Destiny Bond + a fast taunt after trick room will be enough to take out their lead (hopefully before they managed to get up any hazards), and Malamar is also able to use his own trick room in conjunction with superpower in the usual way. I dont believe another Trick Room setter gets Taunt, Trick Room and Destiny Bond.
I guess what might make the set work is that Malamar can set up his own Trick Room to abuse with Superpower, or he can set it up for someone else and semi-reliably sacrifice himself to save turns with a fast destiny bond. He's one of the pokemon who doesn't look like a trick room user, and can help make your team not stand out as "WE ARE TRICK ROOM". While Malamar's list of positive attributes is atrociously short, he also is neutral to dark type attacks unlike a lot of trick room setters. This set can also be pulled out at a lot of different times in the match- you could lead with it and taunt their lead and stop any hazards from slower setters, or you could come in late-game and absorb a hit with focus sash and sweep a weakened team with superpowers.
That's all in ideal scenarios but the set seems ok to me. Focus sash/ lum berry definitely helps with reliability, which I think Malamar lacks a bit. Hope you guys perhaps try it out
Malamar @ Focus Sash or Lum Berry | Contrary
Brave | 252 Hp / 252 Atk / 4 Def
-Taunt
-Trick Room
-Superpower
-Destiny Bond
The idea is pretty obvious, get trick room up while preventing hazards from being put up. Destiny Bond + a fast taunt after trick room will be enough to take out their lead (hopefully before they managed to get up any hazards), and Malamar is also able to use his own trick room in conjunction with superpower in the usual way. I dont believe another Trick Room setter gets Taunt, Trick Room and Destiny Bond.
I guess what might make the set work is that Malamar can set up his own Trick Room to abuse with Superpower, or he can set it up for someone else and semi-reliably sacrifice himself to save turns with a fast destiny bond. He's one of the pokemon who doesn't look like a trick room user, and can help make your team not stand out as "WE ARE TRICK ROOM". While Malamar's list of positive attributes is atrociously short, he also is neutral to dark type attacks unlike a lot of trick room setters. This set can also be pulled out at a lot of different times in the match- you could lead with it and taunt their lead and stop any hazards from slower setters, or you could come in late-game and absorb a hit with focus sash and sweep a weakened team with superpowers.
That's all in ideal scenarios but the set seems ok to me. Focus sash/ lum berry definitely helps with reliability, which I think Malamar lacks a bit. Hope you guys perhaps try it out
So I tried out the Lando-T spread above, and killing speed does hurt its useability more than it helped. I personally found that using Lando-T as a bulky pivot worked better, since it can come in, intimidate, and then U-Turn out to a setter or set up rocks on the predicted switch. It deals with Heatran outside of Trick Room (just pop its balloon first), and is slow enough to be able to deal with both Zard forms under Trick Room.
The set I ended up running is:
Simba (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 68 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Rock Slide
68 Speed EVs get him to outspeed everything below neutral base-100s, but I'm not sure that is necessary as most pokemon that fast are invested in speed.You could probably throw a few of the HP EVs into speed to outspeed the bulky Latias sets, but I digress didnt realize latias was 110 speed, ignore that sentence. Rocks and Pivoting were what I needed (along with a Volcarona/MegaZard Y answer under TR), which this set provided. It adds versatility since it can come in in between Trick Rooms and help with the momentum loss that reversing speed tiers brings.
The set I ended up running is:
Simba (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 68 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Rock Slide
68 Speed EVs get him to outspeed everything below neutral base-100s, but I'm not sure that is necessary as most pokemon that fast are invested in speed.
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Damn this thread is back (thanks Mango) I've been doing lots of experimenting with trappers on Trick Room teams as they're actually really good additions to teams but the one I wanna talk about right now is Wobbuffet (I'll talk about others later):
Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 28 HP / 232 Def / 248 SDef
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SAtk / 0 Spd
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Destiny Bond
Wobbuffet while being mediocre in most teams compared to Gothitelle is actually a really good choice in Trick Room. Wobbuffet can come in and trap a variety of bulky offense threats such as AV Conk. Heatran, Venusaur, and others and then either nail them with a Mirror Coat or Counter eliminating them from the match or if they choose to use support Encore and then switch out allowing any pokemon to get a practically free turn to set up. Then Wobbuffet can use Destiny Bond in trick room to get another KO or force the opponent to use another support move and get encored again. Trick Room makes Wobbuffet's life so much easier as it eases prediction and allows it to tank less hits to do its job. Wobbuffet pairs really well with sweepers that really need one uninterrupted turn to get going such as Bellyjet Azumarill. Overall Wobbuffet is a surprisingly good trapper on Trick Room teams and is good enough to warrant consideration.
Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 28 HP / 232 Def / 248 SDef
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SAtk / 0 Spd
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Destiny Bond
Wobbuffet while being mediocre in most teams compared to Gothitelle is actually a really good choice in Trick Room. Wobbuffet can come in and trap a variety of bulky offense threats such as AV Conk. Heatran, Venusaur, and others and then either nail them with a Mirror Coat or Counter eliminating them from the match or if they choose to use support Encore and then switch out allowing any pokemon to get a practically free turn to set up. Then Wobbuffet can use Destiny Bond in trick room to get another KO or force the opponent to use another support move and get encored again. Trick Room makes Wobbuffet's life so much easier as it eases prediction and allows it to tank less hits to do its job. Wobbuffet pairs really well with sweepers that really need one uninterrupted turn to get going such as Bellyjet Azumarill. Overall Wobbuffet is a surprisingly good trapper on Trick Room teams and is good enough to warrant consideration.
acestriker19 said:
Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 28 HP / 232 Def / 248 SDef
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SAtk / 0 Spd
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Destiny Bond
Wobbuffet is interesting, but Trick Room doesn't have as much trouble facing bulky offensive threats as it does Stall Cores, which is why I'd lean more towards Gothitelle if I was choosing a trapper. Wobbuffet is extremely prediction based, and even if Gothitelle fails to kill a threat, she can incapacitate pokemon like Chansey and even physical attackers who don't appreciate getting choice-locked, or benefit from specs. Instead of having to risk the mindgames when facing walls of "is it going to use status set up, or attack" (encore or counter), Gothitelle can immediately begin attacking if it runs proper coverage, or just trick its item onto the opponent if need be. Wobbuffet can definitely do more damage if used properly (along with destiny), but it causes pretty "high risk high return" mindgames.
Hello! I am actually a new guy here that wants to battle with a TR team.
I currently have 5 for my team and I am wondering if you guys can help me out with it.
Pure Trick Room:
Mega Scizor
Reuniclus TR Setter
Cofagrigus TR Settee
Machamp Patker
Dusclops Eviolite Spdef Wall
-
I would appreciate replies. Thank you very much!
I currently have 5 for my team and I am wondering if you guys can help me out with it.
Pure Trick Room:
Mega Scizor
Reuniclus TR Setter
Cofagrigus TR Settee
Machamp Patker
Dusclops Eviolite Spdef Wall
-
I would appreciate replies. Thank you very much!
Straight up, mons like Ampharos, eelektross, aboma, excadrill (or anything that fast for that matter) have no business on a tr team at all.
You NEED 1hkos, and you need to have zero switchins. Ampharos has a stellar spatt but relatively low bp moves and no boosting item.
Mawile is the only mega that you should be using on tr
Crawdaunt, eruption heatran , specs exploud, etc are the mons that you should be looking at.
They take power to a whole new level and are not walled.
Crawdaunt, for example, cannot be dealt with. Mega venasaur, the best hope, is 1hkod by +2 knock off (or 2hkod by unboosted). Aqua jet kills talonflame and the like.
Mawile is similar. Heatran and skarm are just about the only options, and running sd or focus punch can alleviate that issue.
Exploud boomburst is the most spammable move in the game. Even mons like aegislash don't want to switch in to exploud. It 1hkos even mega gard.
Heatran +lunar dance. + sun kos everything with eruption.
Tr in ou needs to be 100% hyper offense, as bulkier tanks cannot stand up to the super strong threats. (This is contrary to ru, for example, where everything is so bulky and relatively weak that a balanced approach is better).
Mons that can't 1hko the majority of the meta, therefore, have little place on a tr team.
You NEED 1hkos, and you need to have zero switchins. Ampharos has a stellar spatt but relatively low bp moves and no boosting item.
Mawile is the only mega that you should be using on tr
Crawdaunt, eruption heatran , specs exploud, etc are the mons that you should be looking at.
They take power to a whole new level and are not walled.
Crawdaunt, for example, cannot be dealt with. Mega venasaur, the best hope, is 1hkod by +2 knock off (or 2hkod by unboosted). Aqua jet kills talonflame and the like.
Mawile is similar. Heatran and skarm are just about the only options, and running sd or focus punch can alleviate that issue.
Exploud boomburst is the most spammable move in the game. Even mons like aegislash don't want to switch in to exploud. It 1hkos even mega gard.
Heatran +lunar dance. + sun kos everything with eruption.
Tr in ou needs to be 100% hyper offense, as bulkier tanks cannot stand up to the super strong threats. (This is contrary to ru, for example, where everything is so bulky and relatively weak that a balanced approach is better).
Mons that can't 1hko the majority of the meta, therefore, have little place on a tr team.
Mega Abomasnow should be your mega of choice in TR teams, not Mawile.
TR is notoriously weak to bulky ground types such as Hippowdon, Lando-T and Gliscor and Mawile little does to compensate that.
Aboma also has Ice Shard which is extremely helpful against the genies and the million things weak to ice priority in the OU metagame. Sucker Punch is nowhere near as reliable.
TR is notoriously weak to bulky ground types such as Hippowdon, Lando-T and Gliscor and Mawile little does to compensate that.
Aboma also has Ice Shard which is extremely helpful against the genies and the million things weak to ice priority in the OU metagame. Sucker Punch is nowhere near as reliable.
Rotosect said:Mega Abomasnow should be your mega of choice in TR teams, not Mawile.
TR is notoriously weak to bulky ground types such as Hippowdon, Lando-T and Gliscor and Mawile little does to compensate that.
Aboma also has Ice Shard which is extremely helpful against the genies and the million things weak to ice priority in the OU metagame. Sucker Punch is nowhere near as reliable.
I disagree, Mega Mawile provides invaluable resistances and much greater power. Ground-types get smacked pretty easily by P2's Download boosted Ice Beam, while not taking too much damage in return. I don't see why TR would be particularly weak against them. Xatu also fully walls all of them, barring SD Knock Off Gliscor which nobody runs. You can stall Landy-T out of Stone Edge's after TR and repeated Roosting and a single Toxic is enough to beat it. I personally think Xatu with Toxic and Roost is incredibly helpful to counter bulky walls that TR teams have trouble with, as well as SpikeStack and status spam.
Lol mega abobma is bad af
Mawile should be the one and only choice on tr (and is almost a staple)
And crawdaunt and exploud 1hko like all of those anyway
In fact, most of these mons are bad af.
If you aren't using crawdaunt, heatran, exploud, mawile, or something matching their power level, then you are doing it wrong
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 154-183 (55.3 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 228-268 (82 - 96.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
TR NEEEDS those 1hkos, so if x mon can't 1hko most of the meta, than it has no place. OU tr needs to be full ho because balanced teams as slow and as setup reliant as them are killed by crazy out shit (like the stuff that would go on tr teams)
Someone suggested excadrill? First of all too fast. Second of all
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 281-333 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 181-214 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That's more than 20% moar damage.
If a sweeper can't get on that level, then it is outclassed.
That means no abomasnow. No ampharos. No landorus-t. no malamar. no charizard because wut 100 speed. no scarfer because tr literally needs 3 sweepers. etc.
TR is one of the best playstyles in ou. period. But not if you use it terribly
Mawile should be the one and only choice on tr (and is almost a staple)
And crawdaunt and exploud 1hko like all of those anyway
In fact, most of these mons are bad af.
If you aren't using crawdaunt, heatran, exploud, mawile, or something matching their power level, then you are doing it wrong
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 154-183 (55.3 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 228-268 (82 - 96.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
TR NEEEDS those 1hkos, so if x mon can't 1hko most of the meta, than it has no place. OU tr needs to be full ho because balanced teams as slow and as setup reliant as them are killed by crazy out shit (like the stuff that would go on tr teams)
Someone suggested excadrill? First of all too fast. Second of all
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 281-333 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 181-214 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That's more than 20% moar damage.
If a sweeper can't get on that level, then it is outclassed.
That means no abomasnow. No ampharos. No landorus-t. no malamar. no charizard because wut 100 speed. no scarfer because tr literally needs 3 sweepers. etc.
TR is one of the best playstyles in ou. period. But not if you use it terribly
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MikeDawg said:Has a TR team topped the ladder at all this Gen? Has a TR team won any torunaments this Gen? Have they done so consistently?Lol mega abobma is bad af
Mawile should be the one and only choice on tr (and is almost a staple)
And crawdaunt and exploud 1hko like all of those anyway
In fact, most of these mons are bad af.
If you aren't using crawdaunt, heatran, exploud, mawile, or something matching their power level, then you are doing it wrong
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 154-183 (55.3 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 228-268 (82 - 96.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
TR NEEEDS those 1hkos, so if x mon can't 1hko most of the meta, than it has no place. OU tr needs to be full ho because balanced teams as slow and as setup reliant as them are killed by crazy out shit (like the stuff that would go on tr teams)
Someone suggested excadrill? First of all too fast. Second of all
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 281-333 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 181-214 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That's more than 20% moar damage.
If a sweeper can't get on that level, then it is outclassed.
That means no abomasnow. No ampharos. No landorus-t. no malamar. no charizard because wut 100 speed. no scarfer because tr literally needs 3 sweepers. etc.
TR is one of the best playstyles in ou. period. But not if you use it terribly
These are legit questions because I honestly don't know.
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