Metagame Twisted Dimension

:xy/torkoal:
Torkoal @ Iron Ball / HDB / Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock / Rapid Spin / Will-O-Wisp

Torkoal is a crazy mon in this meta rn. Everyone is having this derpy tortoise in their team. Fast Eruption for outrageous damage along with setting up the sun, setting up rocks, being the best rapid spinner is no joke. Plus it can run a different set in ID + Body Press for threats like Tyranitar.
 
I have been playing a lot with the Meta's release as of Yesterday, Currently at 5th on the Ladder (under my Alt BennyWells), and here are some of my thoughts.

General Thoughts on the Meta:
I thought that hyper offense would bowl over everything, and I am glad to say that it hasn't been quite that simple.
Because nothing is investing in speed, there is a lot more bulk, and some attackers are able to invest in their bulk, and thus could be temporary pivots. There is a lot of bulky offense, more than hyper offense.

I have been surprised how balanced and varied the meta has been... with the exception of two (and another)...

What is too centralizing?
Culprit Number 1: :sv/torkoal:

The third Fastest Viable Pokemon in the tier, (Pinchurchin and Munchlax are both decent niche picks, and not game breaking)
At 20 Base Speed Torkoal out speeds every major threat, and is able to throw out sun-boosted eruptions at everything, and often games are decided by Torkoal speed tie wars because of this (Also it is why I run Iron Ball Torkoal, as seen below). Even without the destructive power of specs, eruptions still OHKO or 2HKO several things in the meta, making reliable switch ins very limited even when running a 1/2 speed item or boots (the only things that take eruption lose to Solar beam/ Earth power [other than thick fat lax, blissey, and ttar, who all get dumpstered by the rare, but still good Iron Def. Body Press]). And because of its physical bulk, most priority moves do not do enough to ward it off.

Torkoal Calcs:
The Following are calcs are NOT SPECS (assuming iron ball/boots)
252+ SpA Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene in Sun: 295-348 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Torkoal Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garganacl: 236-278 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (to be fair, Garg usually runs some SpDef, but still, this is one of the better "counters" and it is unable to strike back hard enough, and this isn't specs, in which case get 2HKO'd anyways)
252+ SpA Torkoal Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 306-360 (60.7 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ursaluna in Sun: 364-429 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ SpA Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hydrapple in Sun: 364-429 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Not to mention anyone who is weak to fire
Other than like AV Pivot Walking Wake (or similarly niche bulky dragons), nothing is safe.
All of these attributes combine to make for a broken mon.

Torkoal Sets
Torkoal @ Iron Ball/Choice Specs/Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Lava Plume
- Rapid Spin / Earth Power
- Solar Beam / Stealth Rock / Ancient Power (i guess)

Culprit Number #2: :sv/Dondozo:
The Brainless Set-up Sweeper of the tier.
Did you just get rid of your opponents only grass type/ water absorber? Donbozo comes in to sweep.
While I think there are more answers to the Fish, it is a very oppressive sweeper, abusing curse, unaware, and a lack of consistent answers makes the big guy very toxic and overbearing, whether it is rest/sleep talk, or curse 3 attacks (which each have its own counters, but things struggle to counter both sets, for example, hydrapple is a good mon which counters the mono water move set, but folds to a curse boosted ice-fang.)

Donbozo (Dondozo) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Waterfall / Wave Crash / Liquidation
- Curse
- Rest / Ice Fang
- Sleep Talk / Earthquake

(It is worth also talking about the power, and potential ban worthy nature of items which half your speed, but this does encourage use of items that aren't just boots, so I understand keeping these as well.)

Again other than those two, I don't know that anything is ban worthy right out the gate, but here are some notable...
Metagame threats:
:sv/Hatterene: : This May be Broken after torkoal's ban, but low hp, being outsped by ironball threats, and being weaker to priority, I think this is more healthy, but still a major threat, that will likely be on more teams if Torkoal gets banned.
:sv/Hydrapple: : Very cool and offensive, fast set up sweeper with regenerator, creating opportunities for switching, and is better than just a dozo check.
:sv/Snorlax: : Pretty underused on Ladder imo, either as a belly drum sweeper, or thick fat curse sweeper, are both very strong, but still kept in check with the body pressers and mach punchers of the tier.
:sv/Raging Bolt: : With the only special priority and the very valuable dragon typing, it has favorable match-ups against the big two, and will still have very good use cases if those are banned.
:sv/Ursaluna: :sv/Ursaluna Bloodmoon: : Both very slow and powerful. I think the physical attacker is more varied, and has a little bit more use, but both are very good wall breakers.

Other Pokemon I think are cool:
:sv/Pincurchin: Fastest fully evolved mon and terrain support, could be cool to build around
:sv/Rampardos: Strong and not super slow... but still not fast enough to be a mainstay :(
:sv/Sunflora: The Punching bag of competitive is now good, and benefits from torkoal's sun, and will probably drop off it is banned
:sv/Glastrier: Opposite of Sunflora, I think this will be a metagame destroyer after Dozo gets banned.
:sv/Clodsire: Unaware mon that is not as broken, and has more counterplay (maybe this take will age like milk)
:sv/Copperajah: Very strong mon, do not sleep on this guy, because after one curse, it can KO pretty much everything

Potential Unbans
:sv/Calyrex Shadow: : With How good knock off is, and with how awful 150 base speed is (and with tera being banned), I actually think this will be kept in check.
:sv/Palkia: :sv/Palkia Origin: : If you don't want to ban torkoal, unban this water dragon, origin form is definitely manageable, regular form could be very strong.
:sv/Eternatus: : One of the more fun Ubers becomes more manageable when his 130 speed is so bad.
:sv/Mewtwo: : Similar to Calyrex Shadow, but not quad weak to knock, and a bit faster (but with not as useful ability)
:sv/Zacian: : Again, slow, but very powerful mon worth testing out in the meta.

I think everything else does a little too much to be worth unbanning.

Conclusion
Any metagame where torkoal is OP and Calyrex-Shadow is potentially not is really funny, and I can't wait to see how the metagame develops over the month!
 
I agree that Torkoal feels top-tier to the point of borderline broken - it is notably one of the only mons in the meta where I've witnessed it break its checks over the course of the game. Torkoal has some resilient switch-ins - the switch-in list also includes bulky Fires (Skeledirge, Moltres, Incineroar, Rotom-H), Dragons (Dragalge, Latios, Dragonite), some Waters (Walking Wake, Pelipper, Toxapex, Araquanid), and special walls (Clodsire, Blissey), and Pelipper and Moltres may be among Torkoal's most resilient walls - but most of them don't pack reliable recovery and therefore get worn down, Clodsire risks getting 2HKOed by full-strength Eruption, Skeledirge is 2HKOed by Earth Power with enough chip or SpDef nerf hax and is forced to run Boots for fear of Rocks Torkoal, Blissey hates Body Press, and a resilient wall list of Pelipper, Moltres, and Toxapex looks pretty thin.

I actually consider Hatterene a top-tier threat that must be answered in the teambuilder or else. Hatterene cannot be answered with most status infliction, Taunt/Encore, or phazing, and it therefore must be out-offenced. Steel-types would be decent walls (and often are), but Sun-boosted Mystical Fire is real. Fire-types are decent switch-ins, but some of them can become set-up fodder (luckily, Skeledirge doesn't, Rotom-H can Trick a Choice Scarf around, and Moltres can pivot).

But, while Dondozo must also be answered in the teambuilder, I do not think Dondozo is banworthy. Not only is Dondozo weak to every super-effective STAB attack (Electrics and Grasses) and hates special attacks in general (I broke a Dondozo today with a mere Scarfed Latios with Shadow Ball), Dondozo is trapped between getting 3HKOed by powerful physical attackers (e.g. Iron Fist Conkeldurr's Hammer Arm), getting walled by too much with a mono-attacker set (e.g. Water Absorb Clodsire for mono-Water, Ghosts for mono-Body Press), and having survivability issues with no RestTalk (Torkoal 2-3HKOes with Solar Beam, so I once forced a Dondozo to Rest and it was a sitting duck against Torkoal in the endgame - in fact, all Curse users with no reliable recovery have these same survivability issues). Dondozo walls a lot, but it rips open weaknesses to just enough mons that I'd rather not see it banned.

In the meantime, I've actually currently found Raging Bolt to be worse in Twisted Dimension than in OU so far (too many Ground-types, Raging Bolt outspeeds basically nothing, Raging Bolt has no 4x resists and therefore has a shaky time switching in unlike Walking Wake).
 
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havent laddered much, but heres my thoughts on tiering action rn:

:torkoal: yea this guy is insane, specs eruption go brr
:dondozo: might be op after a torkoal ban, but for now its ok, gets farmed by a lot imo
:iron ball: im not sure what to think here, tho im leaning ban
:gastly: curse puts salt into the wound of there being way more slow phys mons then special mons, tho i do want to see how the meta develops with it around
:palkia-origin: yea this can probs drop, i dont see a world where its op
:calyrex-shadow: maybe, could potentially be too strong on tr teams once that implemented (btw it originally wasnt, but it turns out theres a very easy way to do it without making it pet mod like, so as far as im aware it will be implemented soon)
:zacian: looks incredibly mid, an unban wouldnt shake things up much
:zamazenta-crowned: would be interesting, but im sane enough to not actually consider dropping it (for now)
 
Is forced level 100 intentional? I was trying to knock a few levels off to get more speed but the mon I was trying to do that with kept getting forced back up to 100
 
What makes iron ball better than any of the power items? Or do they all have the same issue of being borderline overpowered?
They're functionally the same; iron ball is arguably worse since it grounds fliers. I do think they're all kind of overpowered tbh. They enable a lot of guessing games since anything could end up being twice as fast as you're expecting it to be. It does come at the cost of another item but this meta is so high-powered there aren't really a lot of chances to get up hazards to punish, especially because two of the biggest threats atm are a spinner and a magic bouncer. If there was an equivalent "free agility at all times" item in other tiers it would be insanely centralizing. At this point I'm even using iron ball on Torkoal and Pincurchin just to make sure I'm definitely outspeeding when I expect to. It's kind of silly
 
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Hello, Just checking in, trick room is supposed to make speed normal right?
Because I just played a round with a trick room strat and trick room did nothing, is it currently broken?
 
Having so much fun with this metagame! Been having some real success with these sets in particular.


One that i just started using that i think has massive potential as a lead set is

Archaludon @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Steel Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Mirror Coat

With hazard removal being so uncommon this is a nice garanteed way to get up stealth rock, its also great vs a torkoal lead as you can ohko with mirror coat. Steel beam and draco meteor are extremely strong as well, and youre able to get off a second turn with sturdy custap, which also catches a lot of people off guard and has gotten me many free kills.

Raging Bolt @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 20 Atk / 20 Spe
- Thunderbolt
- Thunderclap
- Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch

Assault vest Raging bolt can function as a semi torkoal switch in as well as slow volt user, with some nice priority in thunderclap


Slowbro-Galar @ Quick Claw
Ability: Quick Draw
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Sludge Bomb
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off

Poison psychic is extremely strong coverage in the tier right now vs the bulky poison and fairy types running around. Couple that with the very high chance of quick draw popping and youve got some great endgame potential. I could see 3 attacks nasty plot working as well on more aggresive teams.

Really curious to see this tier develop more. Such a blast!

Below some replays showcasing the mons.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9twisteddimension-2256082438
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9twisteddimension-2256094312
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9twisteddimension-2256097571
 
Hi, first to 1500s and to top the ladder here last couple of days. I made a list of mons + some sample sets, as well as a couple teams I'd like to share. Just gonna ramble.

Iron Ball Meta:
The item Iron Ball (or the "Power" items as equivalents) shapes Speed tiers and what can function as legitimate sweepers and revenge killers. It is to the point where if Pokemon cannot hit a low enough Speed, like around base 40, there's probably no reason for them to even try to run Iron Ball themselves. Even some of the slowest Pokemon around like Torkoal and Hatterene will run Iron Ball so that higher base Speed opponents don't get the jump on them, as well as the mirror of course.

I don't find this centralization a problem, as the more dedication to Iron Ball just means that item removal and hazard spam becomes more viable as a check. It also means Pokemon with a base Speed tier of say 50 or higher will most likely not opt for Iron Ball and will instead choose Heavy-Duty Boots, Covert Cloak, Rocky Helmet, ect. There's a few other funny interactions with the Iron Ball spam that's seen, like when scouting if a heavy hitter like Torkoal is running Iron Ball or Choice Specs, or using Trick / Knock Off to invalidate a faster opponents Iron Ball and get the jump the following turn or make way for a late-game cleaner to sweep. Ultimately this item and its copies are fine for the metagame; the centralization has its checks and it just makes this OM more quirky.

And as a rule of thumb, anything that can't hit 40 Speed or lower with Iron Ball (so base 43 and below) should probably try another item. Exceptions might be sets that can lower their Speed, like through Curse and Iron Ball.

Top Mons + Sets:
All "sample" sets in the following pasetbin. These are all tested at least once by me, but feel free to change and suggest what could work better, as always: https://pokepast.es/c046c8f1426711ce

:torkoal: Its super slowness and access to Drought + Eruption makes Torkoal an excellent sweeper and offensive threat. Its coverage is just good enough for it to clean teams, or it can opt for less coverage and more utility with either Rapid Spin or Stealth Rock. The former makes it do great as a lead, as it can often use Eruption to scare out opposing Stealth Rock users, and if they do try to trade an entry hazard, you can clear them away the following turns. Note that without Choice Specs, you need Fire Blast to OHKO Glastrier if Eruption is unviable. Iron Ball is likely still the best item on it, but Choice Specs is a decent contender given that even without the Speed drop, Torkoal hits 40 Speed, which happens to Speed tie base 43 Speed Pokemon like Crabominal, but will beat out faster folk like Ursaluna. There's a lot of bulky Water-types and other cool picks to check Torkoal, and its weakness to entry hazards + struggle versus stall doesn't make it that bad to deal with. Physical Curse spreads are a bit of a gimmick and don't work well enough for conversation imo.

:dondozo: Probably the best pick in the metagame at the moment, Dondozo exceeds at checking opposing Curse sweepers while being a great Curse sweeper itself. Curse is basically a physical Quiver Dance in this metagame, but with a ton of abusers and not just butterflies. Unaware with huge physical bulks means that most Curse users cannot get past Dondozo, and its low Speed allows it to Curse alongside them for extra bulk. This means Dondozo can be a great counter sweeper, and it has the coverage and power to prove it; +1 Wave Crash is incredible, and is capable of feats like OHKOing Hatterene after Stealth Rock. Ice Fang is necessary coverage for Grass- and Dragon-types, and while Rest still works on the offensive variant, coverage like Earthquake and Crunch is probably better. A specially defensive variant with Curse can work well too. Iron Ball is still the best so that you can get the jump on Iron Ball Hatterene, Slowbro, and Slowking formes at -1, as they otherwise make good checks.

:hatterene: So while it may seem obvious why a slow Magic Bounce user would be so good when everything forgoes Heavy-Duty Boots, what really makes Hatt shine is its Speed tier: a mere 29. This allows it to get the jump on almost anything that isn't Torkoal and Clodsire, and with a high Special Attack and good coverage, it excels as a revenge killer + Psychic Noise stallbreaker. Four Attacks might be the go-to set for the whole purpose of a revenge killer, although CM + Draining Kiss still works too. Shadow Ball is great coverage for all the slow Psychic-types in the metagame, although Giga Drain might work too for the physically defensive Water-type foes you can break through.

:slowking-galar: Likely the best special wall, Galarian Slowking works as a pivot that is slow enough to outpace a good chunk of enemies with or without Iron Ball. This makes it great as a scout, but also as a Trick user. My favorite set has been the standard Future Sight pivoting set but with Trick + Black Sludge. The extra recovery while having an option to shutdown Curse sweepers and switch-ins like Kingambit makes for a great bonus, plus you can potentially steal the opponent's Iron Ball and get the jump the following turn, like against Torkoal (removing its Sun with Chilly Reception is another nice perk). Otherwise, Iron Ball with another attack like Psychic Noise likely works as well.

:alomomola: Alomomola basically does the same in OU, but because of its high Speed, it's actually even better as a Wish passer and defensive pivot. Wish Passing is great, especially given partners like Eruption Torkoal, and there's still a ton that it can switch into on and enjoy delayed pivoting. Only a few checks like Sinistcha are actually faster and can punish its Flip Turn. Its passivity is also a concern, as it could be deadweight late-game without something to pivot into and threaten special attackers and Curse sweepers that can deal with Scald burns.

:glastier: Another base 30 Speed titan, Glastrier is a potent snowball sweeper with its ability Chilly Neigh. Its coverage and high Attack are perfect at sweeping, although it only 4HKOes offensive Dondozo without the help of a crit / flinch. That in part is why Taunt might be a better option than Curse, but both can do exceedingly well at either wallbreaking or cleaning. The poor defensive portfolio of the mono Ice typing limits its sweeping potential, but it also increases the centralization of slower special attackers like Hatterene and Torkoal, and both are faster if Iron Ball Glastier uses Curse once. What really keeps it in check are the slew of bulky Water-types and entry hazard spam that makes it hard to effectively setup, but when left unchecked, Glastrier is likely the best sweeper available.

:Copperajah: Copperajah is a one dimensional Stealth Rock + 3 attacks user that works in this meta for its base 30 Speed and STAB Sheer Force Iron Head that OHKOes Hatterene. Most teams won't be able to deter it from setting up Stealth Rock, and Copperajah's coverage means that it can be decently punishing with its coverage as well; Torkoal switching into Copperajah may work once, but it may also come at the threat of losing Iron Ball and being swept by Earthquake the following switch in. The prevalence of some counters like Defog Corviknight may limit its potential slightly, but Copperajah always brings something valuable in the offensive support department.

:Sinistcha: Despite being very fast, Sinistcha works great as a defensive Calm Mind sweeper that effortlessly counters common foes like Dondozo and Alomomola. It is a great late-game win condition for this reason, but it can still spread status and force out Water-types in the mid-game. The high Speed also means it can afford either Heavy-Duty Boots or Covert Cloak depending on the team. Needless to say, being so fast does mean virtually everything outspeeds it, so revenge killers and stallbreakers are a plenty.

:clodsire: Even though Clodsire is as slow as Torkoal, Clodsire actually struggles a bit to make a name for itself in this meta. Offensive sets aren't as threatening as its peers, and defensive sets don't do too much more with the speed advantage than what's seen in OU. Still valuable for Water Absorb shutting down Flip Turn, although defensive sets probably will still want to opt for Unaware.

:munchlax: Yes, Munchlax. Base 5 Speed is that good. Munchlax hits a meager 13 Speed at minimum investment and zero help from Iron Ball, which is faster than Iron Ball Torkoal and, get this, Speed ties -3 Iron Ball Dondozo. So Dondozo can carry Iron Ball and use Curse three times and can still be faster than Eviolite Munchlax. That's why I like to run Encore + three attacks. Munchlax can reliably Encore every Curse sweeper and either follow up to a special attacker. This also makes Munchlax a decent revenge killer, albeit with a passable offensive spread and coverage. The other perk to Munchlax is its ability Thick Fat and huge special bulk, so it's one of the few true counters to Torkoal. What really limits it is the poor Physical bulk; it's a weird fast offensive Chancey for the metagame.

:reuniclus: Magic Guard is a great ability, and so is the coveted 30 Speed tier. Reuniclus can do great with a defensive Double Dance set thanks to the speed advantage and also because of the lack of viable Dark-types to counter Stored Power. Otherwise, an All-Out Attacker set still works great, and its ability offers unique defensive merits over Hatterene, which would otherwise be the more popular option.

:slowking: :slowbro: Both of the bros can do most of the same, as both are two base 30 Speed Nasty Plot sweepers at their best. The importance of Nasty Plot shouldn't be understated, as it's not only for sweeping, but also for ensuring the team can break through the slew of Curse sweepers in the metagame. Defeating the likes of Dondozo, Torkoal, and Alomomola is phenomenal. Between the two, Slowking might be better for its unique special bulk, and the spread I suggested allows it to ignore the 2HKO from non-Choice Specs Torkoal's Solar Beam while always OHKOing back at +2 after Stealth Rock. However, Slowbro is much better at countering Dondozo. The coverage of Psychic Noise + Shadow Ball + Grass Knot I believe works best, especially given sun deters Surf usage, and the coverage for revenge killing and sweeping is better than the utility you can get from Slack Off. Of course, there's still room to experiment, and maybe something like Curse + Calm Mind could work?

:Garganacl: The salt titan does much of the same in OU as it does here. The speed advantage is a solid buff, especially because it Speed ties Dondozo. There's also the fact that it counters Torkoal and is a great choice as a Stealth Rock user. There's still the same passivity concerns, although Curse sweeping is a great option even with just Salt Cure as coverage given that most teams won't opt for a Covert Cloak user unless they carry Sinistcha, which already would be a counter with or without the item.

:Samurott-Hisui: In most regards, Hisuian Samurott took a huge nerf with its high Speed, yet still was able to make a dent with Ceaseless Edge being the bane to Iron Ball spam teams. Hisuian Samurott is also a decent user of Encore and Covert Cloak to check Garganacl, although its harder to get off multiple hits with its high Speed.

:kingambit: The speed flip is, in almost all regards, a huge negative to Kingambit, as most physical walls are guaranteed to outspeed it as long as they run Iron Ball. This in turn discourages Iron Ball usage from Kingambit, so expect the usual fair of items like Black Glasses, Air Baloon, Leftovers, and Lum Berry instead. The metagame is in dire need of priority sweepers, so Kingambit still fulfills this niche and does well enough in some matchups, like dealing with the Pyschic-type infestation.

:corviknight: Even though the speed flip makes Corviknight a guaranteed slow pivot, not much else has changed. It's still the dedicated Defogger for most teams, especially stall. It also has passivity issues, and Curse or Iron Defense sets are underperforming from what I've seen.

:Sudowoodo: There's a small niche in having the combination of Sturdy, Stealth Rock / Spikes, Taunt, and Hammer Arm at such a low Speed of base 30. Sudowoodo can be hard to switch into thanks to STAB Head Smash, which also ensures Rapid Spin Torkoal may not remove its Stealth Rock if hit by Earth Power, making it an effective lead even if it cannot totally deal with Hatterene by itself.

:muk-alola: Alolan Muk works on stall for being a Dark-type that spreads status and dealing with Psychic-types.

:chancey: :Blissey: Stall. It still works.

:Conkeldurr: :Crabominable: Sweeping with Hammer Arm and Ice Hammer works well enough for the added Speed drop. Conkeldurr can be a decent stallbreaker with Taunt, whereas the slower Crabominable hits the more favorable for sweeping given it hits 27 Speed at -1 and with Iron Ball, which is one point slower than Iron Ball Hatterene.

:Hydrapple: Its typing and good bulk makes it an anti-meta Nasty Plot wallbreaker, even if it is on the faster side.

:ursaluna-bloodmoon: Wow is this thing strong. The poor Speed tier is a solid nerf, though.


Most other Pokemon I believe to be C or B rank. Things like Pincurchin and Greedant, while fast, don't offer as much as their peers. Other midspeed or faster picks just fail to break the mold and are outclassed by their slower variants. Maybe Rhyperior idk.

Teams:
Sinistcha Balance:
https://pokepast.es/95a37268a4bdb461

Iron Ball HO:
https://pokepast.es/9b9daff8de5d6b79

Specs Torkoal:
https://pokepast.es/5400acb43d1aaaf3
 
How do people feel about Rhyperior in this meta? It can be hard to get in the right position but with the right coverage - when it's on the field it seems hard to take down.

Rhyperior @ Power Belt
Ability: Solid Rock
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Atk / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Stone Edge
- Curse

This is the spread I've been using on this team - the team itself feels like it could use some work but I like the Torkoal/Glowking/Rhyperior trio even though they share a few weaknesses. It does particularly well into non-Specs Torkoal and can OHKO it back or force it out.

252+ SpA Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 152 HP / 252 SpD Rhyperior in Sun: 170-201 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Torkoal Earth Power vs. 152 HP / 252 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 136-162 (33.2 - 39.6%) -- 99.98% chance to 3HKO
104+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Torkoal: 254-302 (73.8 - 87.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
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“Look everybody! An old man’s talking!” - Milhouse

Well friends, the TDOM ladder has been active for a few days and we’ve had a bit of time to reflect on the state of things. I’ve been listening intently to members of the community here, the OM Discord and the Showdown OM chat, and I’m pleased to say that so far, people seem to be largely enjoying playing the meta and its straightforward, yet highly transformative premise.

Generally, players seem largely positive about the initial meta. As initially envisioned, the meta enjoys a status quo of a bulky balance playstyle, with a high emphasis on aggressive offense coupled with nuanced defensive options.

I’ve seen quite a few new metas launch with an egregious abundance of broken stuff and while there are some overtuned grievances here and there, very few things are overtly busted, as least not in my opinion.

That is not to say there have not been calls for quickbans, as many of you have already been discussing. I have been and will continue to encourage everyone to offer their thoughts on how we should best move forward addressing balancing and tuning the meta towards an inviting, fun, diverse and competitive gameplay environment.

It should go without saying, as we move forward balancing the meta, please be patient and respectful to one another in discussion and voicing your opinions. Balancing a meta is a community driven effort, and that takes a bit of respectful debate and time.

Having said that, here’s the news:

Tier Council Members

I believe now is the time to expand the Tiering Council to a total of five members, before we resort to any possible tiering actions.

I am pleased to announce:

:excadrill:Lectrys
:Zygarde-Complete: Fingie Snatcher
:chikorita: S1nn0hC0nfirm3d (AKA Ho3nConfirm3d)

all have accepted positions and will be joining solrock the great and I on the council. Lectrys took initiative labbing out the TDOM early on ROM before the ladder was even implemented on Showdown, and has been kind enough to share their findings with us all. Fingie and S1nn0h have been vying neck and neck at the ladder peak, with each demonstrating high skill play, solid team building and invaluable meta insight. I’m excited to work with all of you on balancing this OM. Welcome aboard, guys!

Also concerning the council, our other member CoolTrainerGary has not been active on the Smogon forums since October. I am obligated to have active council members who ladder and engage in discussion while we are OMotM, in order to move forward on informed balance changes. I wish Gary well and hope they appear soon, but at this time I am removing them from the Council.

One Art, Please

We have commissioned a banner for the OP, so look forward to that soon.

Sample Teams Are Open

I’ve placed a few Sample Teams up on the first page by Lectrys, Fingie, S1nn0h and myself to dip your toes into the OM and get a feel for things, if you aren’t sure what to build yet.

These teams represent proven strong options in the early meta, but I feel there are a lot of archetypes that still need explored, including Sand, Full Stall, Hazard Stack, Eterrain, PsySpam, among others. Please feel free to post any successful teams here or otherwise just DM me.

Meta Adjustments

These are the pressing issues of the meta I would like to discuss as a community and how we would like to develop the tier going forward. For this moment, I will refrain from speaking on freeing any more Ubers, but know that we do have that luxury as an option to stabilize the meta down the road. This meta was conceptualized as a UUber power level and so, there are many Ubers I feel would be obviously too broken to be considered for freedom, there are several Ubers currently locked I feel would be entirely mediocre to bad, and then there are some I feel could have a healthy place in the meta and feel right at home. Suspect Testing may be in order there, so stay tuned on that.

:Glastrier: Glastrier
:Torkoal: Torkoal
:Dondozo: Dondozo
:Light Clay: Light Clay
:power bracer::iron ball: Power items / Iron Ball

If I were to make a Viability Rankings at this point, I would say that Glas, Tork and Don are the three S-tier big boys of the tier. Of the three, it is my subjective opinion that Glastrier is the most problematic, with Torkoal following, and then Dondozo. I would also like to talk about the controversial items Light Clay and Power/Ball.

:sv/glastrier::Torkoal::Dondozo:

In an environment where some are calling non-Ghost type Curse a broken move in itself, Glastrier is the premier Curse sweeper. Its ability to run away with games is unparalleled, owing to an excellent speed tier, which can only be further enhanced with Power/Ball, which in turn lets it outspeed other Power/Ball holders like Torkoal after a single Curse.

Glas might be contained if it were in fact a “Glas-Cannon” (heh), but frail, it is not. Glas’ defenses are magnificent to the point that even its poor defensive Ice typing hardly limits its set up opportunities, and Chilling Neigh makes it very easy to snowball out of control with free Attack boosts and steal games.

Furthermore, Glas is beyond easy to support. Hatterene, Torkoal and Conkeldurr all offer very strong hazard control options, and Snow from Chilly Reception pivoting from the Slowkings is a natural fit for the meta. HO Dual Screen Grimsnarl has taken off as well, who can also get Glas in for free with Parting Shot lowering its opponent’s offenses.

While we’re on the subject of defenses, I posit the question, can I revenge this thing with priority? Let’s look at two super effective priority moves on Glas.

Raw

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Glastrier: 182-216 (45 - 53.4%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Glastrier: 342-404 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


Guts Conk can’t even OHKO it from full after ROCKS and Technician Band Scizor can only do it 6.3% of the time,

The numbers gets even more ridiculous when Glas, is behind Reflect, under Snow’s defense cover or with a single Curse boost:

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Glastrier with an ally's Aurora Veil: 271-319 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Glastrier with an ally's Aurora Veil: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO


Mind you, you can also stack Snow, screens and multiple Curse boosts.

The best priority of the meta from Raging Bolt which doesn’t mind Curse boosts, doesn’t fair much better.

252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Glastrier: 121-144 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- 31.7% chance to 3HKO

Oh, but we’re not done: Glas has near perfect coverage with STAB Icicle Crash, Close Combat and High Horsepower, the only things being it cannot hit neutrally are Araquanid, who lacks recovery and is Stealth Rock weak, and a few mons holding Air Balloon or some Ghost or Poison types, which is obviously not a permanent solution regardless.

As if near perfect coverage weren’t enough, IC also has a 30% flinch chance, which I have seen used to muscle through Araquanid. Flinches from this thing feel utterly devastating, and when coupled with status like Toxic, it becomes even more unstoppable.

I’m still not done.

It has Taunt, so Glas still has the option to drop either CC or Curse in order to grind down Dondozo more reliably, to either sweep later or let another physical sweeper take point in clenching the game.

Unlike Torkoal and Dondozo, where many counterplay options remain largely unexplored, I feel this is less true of Glastrier. Dondozo checks it generally speaking, but gets beaten down by Taunt, as do Corviknight and Skarmory. Alolamola cannot Wish pass in front of Taunt sets, and needs to fish for Scald burns. Bronzong can run Iron Defense and Body Press for it, but it requires Wish support for longevity and will lose to the Curse + Taunt set regardless. Orthworm sets only work when Glas does not carry CC, which is common. Shuca Berry Solgaleo could work too, but again, that seems like a temporary solution to a permanent problem. I have found defensive Thick Fat Hariyama with Drain Punch, Knock Off and Curse to be a surprisingly decent check capable of 1V1ing it.

Ultimately, the counterplay to Glastrier is limited to a single reliable Regenerator defensive pivot: Slowbro, and to a much lesser extent Alolamola, and even then, with a few attack boosts, even the mighty Bro can’t corral this steed. If our consistent defensive options on Glas are this limited, I feel it is broken.

More than any other mon in this format, my opinion is that Glastrier should be banned. It’s simply the perfect Pokémon for this format: perfect coverage, bulky, IC flinches, Curse, Taunt, speed and snowballing, and everything around it benefits it.

Phew. Ok, now I’m done. I have a hand crap. Ow.
:Glastrier::sv/Torkoal::Dondozo:

Torkoal’s position in the meta is very strong, owing to the fact it is the fastest and most immediately threatening mon besides Pinurchin, who remains much more niche. Outside raw power and speed, Torkoal is also highly mailable and has great utility in Sun, burns, Stealth Rock and hazard control.

The general consensus is that Specs Eruption is undeniably the best form of breaking in the tier, and while hazard weak, Torkoal can easily be supported by the aforementioned Hat and/or Conk for hazard control and granted longevity via Wish passing or Healing Wish.

Mercifully, counterplay to Torkoal is much more abundant and varied when compared to Glas. Pelliper is its best perhaps its best check, switching the weather and making Solar Beam a non-option, while also spreading Knock Off and pivoting all over it, if not KOing it outright. I have personally found Rain to be viable at higher ladder, and this is owing largely to how much it dominates Torkoal, and Water spam defensively limits Glas and Don.

Slowking, Alolamola, Araquanid, the Proto-Dragons, Appletun, Flash Fire, Skeledirge, Moltres, Rotom-H, Chansey, Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar, Sp. Def Garganacl all work to contain Tork to varying degrees. Even seeing stuff like Munchlax and Trapinch outspeeding it and doing work is fun to see.

While Body Press is theoretically possible on Specs sets for the Normal and Rock types and Will o’ Wisp can be used to burn some of its switch ins, I think Torkoal is generally ok by virtue of being locked in to moves on the Specs sets, limited by any of hazards, which item it holds, or 4 moveslot syndrome.

It’s worth our attention, but I would not pursue banning Torkoal at this time, as I want to see how counterplay continues to develop.
:Glastrier::Torkoal::sv/Dondozo:

So my hot take, Dondozo isn’t broken. Earlier, I called Dondozo the glue of the meta, and I stand by that. I’m going to argue that it is actually a healthy, stabilizing presence in the tier, but one with abundant counterplay to both of its main sets.

With Unaware and good bulk and typing, Don is undoubtedly great and centralizing, while also not being nearly as overbearing as either Glastier or Torkoal. There is abundant counterplay to both of its two main sets, Defensive Curse/Rest/Talk Unaware Wall or Offensive Curse. Both of these sets are potentially strong wincons, but are not immediately offensively threatening, and take time to set up. If you prepare for them adequately and conserve the resources to deal with them, they can be beaten.

RestTalk is as paradoxically and simultaneously consistent as it is unreliable, as it relies on Rest and Sleep Talk RNG. It is also hard walled by Water Absorbers like Clodsire and Vaporeon, and gets stopped cold by Haze Toxapex/Clod and Clear Smog Amoongus.

Offensive sets ultimately always suffer 4mss, whether it wants to run Ice Fang for Hydrapple, EQ for Pex / WA Clodsire, Crunch for Slowbro/Sinestcha, Zen Headbutt for Pex/Amoongus, or ChestoRest for a bit more longevity. Something is always walling Don, and it needs to be cleared in order to sweep.

In either case, Don’s reliance on Rest is always exploitable, be it Taunt, Psychic Noise, Electric Terrain from Pinurchin, or even Misty Terrain from Weezing. It can accept Wish support, but it shares its typing with the best Wish users, Alolamola and Vaporeon, which is an exploitable double weakness to the tiers numerous Grass and Electric types of the meta. It can also be limited by any of Trick, Salt Cure or Leech Seed.

I’ll note here that Raging Bolt, the best priority user of the tier, beats Don regardless of these sets either Thunderclap, outside of Light Screen.

I’m also going to note that because Dondozo counters itself, it can be PP stalled by both other Dondozos, as well as Ditto. Hilarious.

Ultimately, in my eyes Don is the singularly most important mon of the format, almost like the Snorlax of Gen 2 OU, which seems appropriate given Gen 2 was, like our own meta, simultaneously bulky, strong and fast. I believe the meta would be much worse off without it, lest we get ripped apart by Belly Drummers and going down the rabbit hole of either banning Curse as a move, or systemically banning every single best user of the move in succession. If we want to pursue that route later, we can, but not before discussing the value Dondozo brings to the meta. But this is simply not a case of broken being necessary to counter broken. Don is healthy, in my eyes.

The most problematic aspect of it is its use on dual screens, which resolves the slow nature of its needing multiple Curses set up, which brings me to…
:Light Clay: Light Clay

Light Clay is not an item I’ve seen discussed much yet, but I would enjoy hearing others’ thoughts on it. Screens HO has already proven itself as the go-to strat at high ladder, along with Suicide Hazard Lead HO Offense.

It’s not hard to see why screens are great. In a meta centered around full bulk investment with inherent built in speed, on top of Curse providing defensive boosts and additional speed, Screens already appear to be especially destined to be overbearing in TDOM, even more so than it is in other formats where Light Clay is also banned.

Given the initial high ladder, I think Light Clay pushes the potent set up like Dondozo, Glastier, Garganacl, Ursaluna, Conkeldurr, Munchlax, Hatterene, Slowbro/Slowking, Hydrapple etc. in the same direction.

For these reasons, I personally would support banning Light Clay. It just makes set up a bit too easy for my liking, and the nerfs the most broken Curse abusers with the best bulk, shifting power a bit away from HO and more towards balance.
:power bracer::iron ball: Power items and Iron Ball

I will be referring to the speed halving items collectively as “Power/Ball” for brevity’s sake. That seems catchy enough.

I wanted to end my write up on Power/Ball because more so than anything else, these items have been the most controversial in regard to feedback from the community. Some people like them and think they’re healthy. Some people hate them have been demanding a quickban.

I see both sides of this argument and will attempt to remain neutral on them for now as the we discuss their pros and cons within the tier.

Here are the arguments I have seen for and against Power/Ball. Please feel free to add to them, defend them or point out why they’re wrong.

Pros:
Power/Ball offers a speed control element to a meta otherwise lacking it, as paralysis, Sticky Web and Tailwind do not function in this way with the speed inversion, and Trick Room remains unimplemented as of now.
Edit: TR now implemented. See my post below.

Speed control is especially important given how powerful Curse is as an offensive tool. The efficacy of priority in revenge killing is limited both by the bulk investment of the meta, and Curse defense counteracting most forms of priority outside Thunderclap (and Water Shuriken, but Greninja is not viable).

Power/Ball represent a means of offensive counterplay to Curse sweepers, as the speed halving effect always outpaces a single Curse on Pokemon inhabiting identical speed tiers.

Power/Ball represents a balanced opportunity cost for which item a Pokemon can run. For offense mons to run them, they become unable to run power boosting items like Choice Band/Specs, Life Orb or Flame Orb on the Gutsy guys, and defensively they are unable to run Leftovers, Heavy-Duty Boots or Covert Cloak. It is because of Power/Ball being centralizing that hazards, Psychic Noise and Salt Cure are so effective in this meta.

Power/Ball encourages skillful play by virtue of needing to item scout, either traditionally, or via the use of viable Frisk mons like Dusclops or Exeggcutor-A, and use of defensive pivots against potentially fast mons, as well the use of Knock Off or Trick as means of eliminating the opponent’s speed item in order to clear the way for endgame scenarios.

Cons:
Running Power/Ball overcentralizes the meta and limits item diversity and hampers set creativity.

Running Power/Ball is inherently too free of drawbacks when compared to Choice Scarf in standard play, as the player gets to freely swap moves.

Curse abusers also often carry Power/Ball, making the argument that Power/Ball is counterplay to Curse a moot point.
 
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Dudes!

Sorry to double post but this is a very important meta development. No sooner do I submit my doctoral thesis above do I learn that…

Trick Room now works as intended!

Proof

This is very relevant because Trick Room now functions as a new form of speed control.

I doubt very much full “fast” TR will be consistent, as Trick Room teams struggle at high level singles play in normal formats, and the bulk investment of the tier can only be a net loss for faster, more frail offensive mons, but stand alone TR users can now totally goob Curse mons and so forth, which I find very welcome.

We will have to factor this news into the Iron/Ball debate.

I have updated the FAQ in the OP to reflect this.

Have fun, y’all.

Thank you dhelmise!

Possibly relevant as TR setting mons now?
Remember, you can still invest in bulk. Not minimizing your speed IVs is probably enough to outspeed a lot of threats after setting TR, depending on your base speed.

:sv/slowbro: :sv/slowbro-galar: :sv/slowking: :sv/slowking-galar: :sv/solgaleo: :sv/deoxys-defense:
The Bros and the Teleporters are already good in this meta, and bulky. Suddenly Solgaleo’s speed is an asset, but its 4mss remains bad. It can be a good late game cleaner if cleared, regardless.

:sv/cresselia:
The fat Christmas goose has the bulk to set TR and can Healing Wish into whatever slow strong attacker you want. Palafin, Annahilape, the Urshifus, Hoopas, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, you name it.

:sv/drifblim: :sv/azelf::sv/gardevoir: :sv/diancie: :sv/scream tail: :sv/Carbink:
Room and Boom to get in that threat. (TR + Explosion/Misty Explosion.) Drifblim is also kind of a nice defensive flex on Ursaluna.

:sv/deoxys-attack:
Frail, but damn look those attack stats. solrock the great is happy somewhere.

:sv/Espathra:
Don’t laugh and hear me out: Opportunist against Curse users + Stored Power/Lumina Crash. It’ll do work.

:sv/mimikyu:

Three words. Red. Card. Countersweep. (Is that four words?)
Non-Ghost Curse abusers also hate taking Ghost-type Curse, which Mimi uses to soften of defensive checks and off itself to get in the real TR threat, for free.

:sv/armarouge::sv/chandelure::sv/delphox:
Torkoal counters. Thank you. Thank you.

:sv/hoopa::sv/Hoopa-Unbound:
That Sp. Def is looking tasty.

:sv/gallade:::sv/iron valiant:
Sharpness and crits for Curse make Gallade scary. Valiant is always good too as a nice mixed or special cleaner.

:sv/meowscarada:
Speaking of crits, Grass is a great attacking type in this meta and Flower Trick’s guaranteed crit feasts on Curse abusers like Dondozo and Garganacl.

:sv/klefki::sv/meowstic:
TR + priority screens. Nice.
 
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Fun, Honest Threats & Things That Need To Leave, ASAP
The Fun:
  • :Pincurchin:Finally, after more than 5 years of being generally awful, even with the addition of Quark Drive & Tapu Koko's absence, the goofy sea-urchin has a real niche, and a damn good one too. 15 speed makes him one of the fastest mons in the tier, blitzing past most "slow" tier threats, often without even needing a Power/Ball item. The speed & utility is nice, but Pincurchin also has 101 Base Atk Supercell Slams that would make even pre-nerf Koko blush. Access to Curse makes him all the more threatening, as after a Curse, Pincurchin effectively is guaranteed to outspeed every mon in the metagame. I am highly investing in Pincurchin stocks, and suggest others do the same.
  • :Mudsdale: This guy is a bit of a later pick that will probably be more viable after certain mons get banned... Foreshadowing, but in a tier where a lot of people are running Iron Ball to drop their speed at the cost of grounding themselves, STAB Earthquake off of a 125 Atk stat with access to Curse is kinda nuts! Obviously, this guy gets fried by Dondozo, but...
  • :Glimmora: Despite it's "high" speed, Glimmora has shown a surprising bit of utility for me as a janky semi-lead mon. Slow Mortal Spin is actually quite useful if your opponent is trying to set up hazards, and Glimmora also has access to Reflect/Light Screen, which, while ethically questionable, still is pretty damn good. Hazards are obviously really good in this tier - nobody's running boots, because you pretty much HAVE to run a slowdown item, barring certain nonspecific instances. With that being said, Glimmora is obviously a premiere hazard setter, and should at least be considered for Hazard Setting/HO teams.


This Stuff Needs to be Banned - The Evil 3:
  • :Torkoal: Torkoal is the most annoying Mon in the metagame right now. We all know what it does - Eruption, Eruption, Hit your resist with Earth Power/Solar Beam, Eruption some more... Very annoying mon, would like very much for it to be gone, ASAP.
  • :Glastrier: Glastrier is another very egregiously powerful mon, and it kind of surprises me that it wasn't quickbanned/banned before the metagame was implemented. I mean, 30 speed, Monstrous Attack, Built-In setup alongside Swords Dance and Great Coverage? Seems like a no-brainer.
  • :Dondozo: Surprise surprise - another "slow" fat Pokemon that can do egregious damage. Dondozo is especially annoying because in addition to being very easy to setup, it nullifies most forms of other setup, especially with Curse Physical Attackers being so prevalent. Admittedly, I have had the least amount of trouble with this mon out of these three, thanks to Pincurchin WALLOPING it most times it is sent out, however, it definitely is an egregious Pokemon and should definitely be banned.
Ehhhh... Probably this stuff too:
  • The Power/Ball items are definitely "broken," but I can't fully convince myself they need to be banned. Like VannAccessible mentioned in their post, the cons mostly counter/overshadow the Pros, but I cannot ignore the fact that they are the only "real" speed control available in the metagame, besides tricking your opponent a scarf. The issue is, when every mon is running said "speed control," it effectively doesn't exist. I think that banning Power/Ball items would definitely open up diversity in the metagame item-wise, and if I had the chance, I would probably vote ban, but I think that if they were to remain, the meta wouldn't suffer too greatly as a result.
  • :Ursaluna: Somehow, Ursaluna has been kept in check (:Dondozo:BOO) from using Curse Guts Facade Fire Punch Headlong Rush and completely annhilating the metagame. This mon will definitely become a problem once the Evil 3 are gone, and I feel it deserves to have a very close eye kept on it.
  • :Hatterene: Hatterene is definitely not a banworthy threat currently, but after the Evil 3 are banned, I can see it being suspected & possibly banned as well. Creeping all the 30s in the tier at 29 is kind of nuts, and Hatt not having to invest in speed anymore makes it even bulkier than what people are used to in OU. Definitely keeping my eye on it, at least.
With all that being said - I like this metagame. I think it seems fun, and it gives normally dogwater mons like Sunflora and Pincurchin chances to shine. Definitely still needs polishing, but I think this has the potential to be an OM mainstay. Looking forward to the future!


P.S.
  • 1733385755530.png
    .
  • Please, please, please, please stop using this core. Whenever I see it I make this ishowspeed-speed.gif face because although I feel bad, I know I am going to win. Setting up Sticky Web on your own field would be nice if it didn't require setting up webs on your opponents field first. Also, Cinderace is way too fast. Don't use this.
  • Don't use Curse Last Resort either.
 
P.S.
  • View attachment 693099.
  • Please, please, please, please stop using this core. Whenever I see it I make this View attachment 693100 face because although I feel bad, I know I am going to win. Setting up Sticky Web on your own field would be nice if it didn't require setting up webs on your opponents field first. Also, Cinderace is way too fast. Don't use this.
Yet another case of DracoMenace using a gimmick strat and loads of other people trying it (except this time, I was the one who asked him to use this gimmick. Oops)
 
Don’t get me wrong, I <3 DracoMenace. His videos probably help drive up traffic. But IMO, it’s a meme strategy to goob the noobs. It’s super telegraphed and requires using Cinderace or Smeargle for Court Change, which are both slow and frail (or you can make the inconsistent/risky Hatterene Web play I suggested earlier with Infestation Araquanid). If you’re also using Tarountula, you’re basically playing 4-6 from the start.

Anyway, just spam Rapid Spin / Defog / Taunt against the Webber at lead, and they can’t do jack.

OR Taunt the Court Changer and keep the webs, and then they are utterly boned.

OR OR OHKO the Cinderace. It’s not THAT bulky and it’s slow.

Here’s my boy I was already using that utter laughs at this and a lot of other gimmicks, including the newly freed Trick Room. It’s a friggin sweet stall breaker set too that spreads Knock Off (super important for the speed items).

:sv/conkeldurr:
Conkeldurr (M) @ Iron Ball
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hammer Arm
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Defog

PS: I edited the Trick Room post above
with some ideas for relevant threats and anti-meta picks. Look at it!
 
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Ok so a bit of Ladder with the newly implemented Trick Room and yea, it's good.
https://pokepast.es/ff19c6c14905eb57
:sv/Solgaleo:
This Boi feels a bit criminal, as it can eat a +1 :Dondozo: dozo eq w/o even defense investment. The goal is to get up trick room and TP out. However, it can check :Glastrier: glas, as it can take 3 unboosted High Horsepowers and KO back with Sunsteel Strike. If not knock, Morning Sun could be good, especially with :Torkoal: Torkoal's Sun being prevalent.
:sv/Alomomola:
As this team doesn't have hazard control, Alo is useful at keeping things like :Urshifu: Urshifu, :Iron Valiant: Val, and :Landorus: Lando. Chilling can be swapped for scald, I just never land bunrs with this stupid fish, as a means of crippling :kingambit: Gambit, :Glastrier: glas, or :Dondozo: dozo
:sv/Urshifu:
Straight to the point, it's Urshifu. It's does Urshifu things. Idk if anything in the meta is even capable of tanking a CC or Wicked Blow from and not get OHKOed or 2HKOed. Sucker can deal with :Torkoal: Torkoal out of Troom and live a non-specs eruption from full thanks to the fact it doesn't need to run speed and can put it into HP. SD Glasses is also something that might be interesting.
:sv/Slowking-Galar:
Now for the 2nd Troom setter, Glowking is easily able to do what it would do on an OU Troom team, setup Troom/Future Sight and pivot with Chilly. It can take 1 Eruption from :Torkoal: Torkoal at full get Troom up and outspeed and Chilly out. It also serves as a mon that can function as an attacker outside of Troom only being outspeed by previously mentioned :Torkoal: Torkoal, :Clodsire: Clod, and othermons with a base speed lower than 30 along with anything over 62 Base speed if their holding an :power bracer::iron ball: Power item / Iron Ball. Could maybe be switched for regular slowking.
:sv/Iron Valiant:
With speed not being a huge concern, val can invest the speed into HP and get booster SPA from Quark Drive. A notable point is Val is a soft check to :kingambit: Gambit as it can take a Supreme Overlord 5 fallen Sucker Punch and KO with Aura Sphere. It also can beat non-out of control :Dondozo: dozo via Thunderbolt and take 1 wave crash from max atk brave. It also can setup trick room in the event it needs to or is able to.
:sv/Landorus:
Man oh man Lando is good. Being able to OHKO if not 2HKO almost everything in front of it which can be boosted with Nasty Plot. However, it needs to be wary of :Dondozo: dozo as any water stab kills from +2 Brave no atk investment and Wave Crash kills from Max atk Brave or Brave +2

Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9twisteddimension-2257283306
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9twisteddimension-2257286016
 
Alright, time for an update!
Now that I have gotten two accounts into top ten, let me share some more thoughts.

Note, I have not played against or tested for myself the new trick room changes, but from what I can tell, it would be very hard to justify trickroom, when so many threats are around (although Solgaleo, Urshifu and some others make a case, and if other ubers are unbanned, then it will be viable). So for now, things like glas, ursa (either one), hydrapple, hatt, clod (if boosted/super effective), etc. can usually tank one hit and kill back, so I do not see trick room being all that reliable before the funny ubers are unbanned.

Playing more has made me appreciate the meta a bit more, to the point where quickbans may not be necessary.
That being said, an update on what should be considered for banning:
:Torkoal: The number one banworthy mon is still torkoal, easily. He outspeeds everything relevant, and while the slowkings and AV walking wake are pretty good checks, they aren't full counters (as they either need to be completely full hp, or get worn down). I have noticed more people running iron ball on torkoal, just so that torkoals can try to win speed ties with other torkoals. When half of the time my answer to torkoal is my own torkoal, and I hope and pray that they are not iron ball, or that I win a speed tie, I would say that it is not a healthy presence. I am not going to lie, this mon carries me right now, I ain't top 10 material lol.

That is the only mon I think deserves a ban outright, but there is one other to consider if torkoal does get banned...
:Glastrier: I did not understand the hype around this guy. Then I playtested a team without Dozo or Torkoal and suddenly my eyes were opened. This guy is a monster when you aren't running the other two top tiers. It is very easy to steam roll, if he has iron ball and 1 curse he outspeeds everything (minus munchlax). Right now Dozo and Torkoal keep him in check, but it is hard to say what would happen if a torkoal ban would occur.

Those are the only pokemon worth looking at for bans right now in my opinion (I'll get back to my thoughts on Donbozo in a bit), but there are also a few items to consider.
:power bracer::iron ball: Power items / Iron Ball
I think the worst has happened, and more and more curse sweepers are using these items, even the ones I thought wouldn't.
Ursaluna uses it instead of Flame Orb.
Copperajah uses it instead of Life Orb.
Glastrier uses it instead of boots, I could go on.
Knock off is the only reason I think these need to stay for a little bit longer (also making hazards more useful), but I think that most offensive powerhouses will always want to use it to win in a ditto, leading to a lot of unfortunate speed ties, rather than interesting speed control.
Again, knock does keep it in check and cause interesting counterplay, and I do think the metagame should have some more time with them allowed, but definitely something to keep an eye on.

:Light Clay: Light Clay
Alright here is a lukewarm take, I think because of the bulk of the metagame, and the counters to most of the best curse sweepers, that Suicide lead screens is not that good. However, there is one screens abuser that is way to reliable and consistent, it is Grimmsnarl. The fact this guy can set up 6 turn screens for the team, protect itself and parting shot out (not to mention the added utility of forcing hatt out) has shown (imo) to be way too consistent, even on bulky offense. Aurora Veil and other screens users are not as reliable as Grimm, but we may just be kicking the can down the road if Grimm is the one we ban instead of Light clay. Overall I have very mixed feelings about the item, but Grimm is too good of an enabler with the item allowed (again imo).

Now...
:Dondozo: I will admit when I am wrong. I thought that this was completely suffocating, and easily banworthy along-side torkoal, but my tune has changed. Dozo's most common set is where waterfall (or wave crash I guess) is it's only attacking move. There are many mons that counter this, such as hydrapple, walking wake (who can spam draco because of unaware), any water absorber (the two I have seen are clod and vaporeon), sunflora, raging bolt, etc. There are a lot of counters, however I thought that because of the three attack set, that it was always a guessing game, and dangerous to the metagame, especially considering pp wars between 2 of this variation of dondozo. However, the restless sets are weak to being chipped down, and when you have to set up a few curses to be very effective, chipping it down is easy.
So while I think dondozo is still very good glue to a lot of teams, and a strong win con as well, I don't think that it is ban worthy anymore, regardless of 1 attack with sleep talk, 2 attacks with chesto, or 3 attacks, and lacking recovery.
(also it is one of few mons that often prefer leftovers (and rarely covert cloak depending on garg matchup) over the speed doubling items, so that's cool).
Feel free to disagree, I would love to hear the reasons for banning the guy. He is kinda annoying sometimes for sure... just not bannable.

:Hydrapple: My favourite mon in the tier has been hydrapple. Regenerator pivot and nasty plot threat in one, not overbearingly fast, not over reliant on iron ball, he is just a funny guy.

Anyways, I am excited to see how the meta continues to progress!
 
Thoughts after hitting 1400 on ladder:

:torkoal: This mon is very broken, I've been running Iron Ball on it so it's basically impossible to speedcreep, and Sun Eruption does a ton of damage. Wouldn't be surprised to see this banned.
:hatterene: I also think this is broken, if Torkoal goes one of the very few mons that outspeeds it is gone, which will make it even more broken. Rn due to the reduced viability of boots (cuz u have to run iron ball on everything lol) hazardstack is very powerful, so having a magic bouncer to nerf that is still a good trait, but if iron ball gets banned then I think this should be too
:dondozo: Currently this mon is fine, denying setup isn't too hard with brokens Torkoal and Hatterene but if those two get banned Dozo will likely be opressive, and should be looked at
:glastrier: Tbh this mon is kinda mid rn cuz of how bad momentum sinks into dozo, and it has a bad tork mu as well, but i think if tiering action happens against tork/dozo it will be much more threatening
:iron ball: I think this item is fine because there is a lot of tradeoff to running it. You cant run offensive items/HDB if u wear this, and adds an interesting dynamic.

Nothing else seems super broken, no comments on unbanning ubers
 
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