U-turn Discussion and Poll

Is U-turn a broken move?

  • Yes

    Votes: 38 13.1%
  • No

    Votes: 212 73.1%
  • Maybe, it depends

    Votes: 40 13.8%

  • Total voters
    290
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I really doubt that it always came out on top considering for that strategy to even work you have to do a double switch or come in on the revenge... Even then you have to have make sure your opponent will die from at least one of your moves. Depending on the hundreds of possible teams it is not hard to regain the momentum.
 

ShootingStarmie

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I really doubt that it always came out on top considering for that strategy to even work you have to do a double switch or come in on the revenge... Even then you have to have make sure your opponent will die from at least one of your moves. Depending on the hundreds of possible teams it is not hard to regain the momentum.
Lol. There's no strategy involved, you literally just U-turn out of the counters and rape everything else with Earth Power. This is where the Risk vs. Reward factor comes in, and something like Jirachi can't stay in on a Landorus-I. It's just way too risky. And yes, you could say you can predict this but prediction goes both ways, and no sane battler is going to let Landorus KO Jirachi, hence they switch into Celebi. If the Jirachi user stays in, the Landorus-I user was and is in the better position. No double switching is required. Where did you get that idea from?

Anyway, I'm tired of arguing about Landorus-I, U-turn is the disscusion at hand here, and I really don't know if Landorus-I would have been broken with out it (imo it wouldn't be, but who knows?).
 
Curtains said:
I really doubt that it always came out on top considering for that strategy to even work you have to do a double switch or come in on the revenge
Or, y'know, come in on another U-Turn. I think you're missing the point that the debate over the move's possible inherent brokenness centers around the ability to constantly go into an offensive counter to whatever you switch out to stop the current pokemon while wearing it down with chip damage. It isn't like baton pass where you can just say "cool, I'll keep switching to a counter, you're not wearing me down"; U-turn damage, while clearly not immense, does take a toll. Anyway another thing you said that leads me to believe you're not exactly getting the point is when you said "to get it to work you need to do a double switch" when the whole point of U-Turn is you never need to double switch when you have it. You'll always go to the best pokemon after he switches, meaning a huge skill component has been taken out for offense. it used to be one had to make risky double switches, opening the possibility for a huge momentum gain; with U-Turn, you get all of the rewards with no risk. That's why people think U-Turn breaks Landorus, it literally allows it to say "fuck it, I'm beat" and then leave, always going to the best counter to its check. Otherwise, getting double switched on would be a huge risk for Landorus users who have built momentum, but with U-turn, it's risk free.
 
U-turn can (and will) backfire though... You can easily be forced to u-turn into something that you don't want to face the pokemon that the opponent left in... That is why when I think of a broken move I think about a move that takes away competitiveness. Moves like OHKO moves, or even moves like thunderwave and spore could be seen as less competitive than u-turn because of the easy low risk/extremely high reward they bring.... U-turn can always be mind gamed around based on the team preview.. The remaining pokemon that can u-turn are relatively slow and have huge glaring weaknesses to the most common moves in the tier. They can easily be bypassed with smart play and not playing so reactive... Also you have to take in the fact of SR damage.. It may not seem like a big deal on paper but I assure you that is a imbalance I am calculating while playing. Going back to landorus it only beat when the opponent else is faster or its a cresselia. Say you bring a ferrothorn in on my lando-i and you know and I know that I lack focus blast. When I u-turn im not really winning that battle. The ferrothorn is going to leech seed or do something else... It really has no reason to switch so it has a tempo to use whatever move it wants... The u-turn user doesnt know what move it will use so basically you are at a disadvantage and at the mercy of the ferrothorn user... Will he leech seed? Thunder-wave? SR? Power whip? Gyro ball? You would never know... What if he protects? Say if lando is in on my heatran and I go for protect... I see you have u-turn so now I can switch into my X with a better piece of mind that none of your moves will do any damage. You u-turn and lose your LO damage and then you have to come back into rocks. So to say that there is no risk is a falsehood because switching in to the unknown can be equally as dangerous and game changing. Just have to think and play the game...
 
alright

Curtains said:
You can easily be forced to u-turn into something that you don't want to face the pokemon that the opponent left in
How is this different from switching

takes away competitiveness
so rendering the risk of the double switch obsolete on some of the metagame's most offensive pokemon isn't taking away competitiveness?

not playing so reactive
You have to do that when you lose momentum, which can happen off a lead matchup. Bang, you're forced to backpedal, but you can completely swing the momentum to your own side with a smart double switch! but you cant as U-turn fucks you, are you sensing a pattern

I see you have u-turn so now I can switch into my X with a better piece of mind that none of your moves will do any damage.
Lets continue with the hypothetical, your X (lets say Jellicent, sure) Jellicent comes in and then gets hit with a U-turn, sure it does like 5% but now you're staring at a Thunderus-T.
and if you're a master of prediction and don't switch I'll go into Heatran, whatever, works too. I have a big advantage. Point is never once did I predict, which is what's the problem: I just gained the advantage/momentum without ever having to think

So to say that there is no risk is a falsehood because switching in to the unknown can be equally as dangerous and game changing.
Well clearly, no one said that U-Turn never has risks when i said "no risks" in my previous post I was referring to an offensive situation where any move is a clean OHKO, which in this instance it isn't. But the risk/skill involved in using U-turn is much, much less than double switching.

Just have to think and play the game
point is with U-turn you don't have to think


Anyway, if i can sum up your argument, it's that
A) The pokemon who can currently use U-Turn aren't good enough at playing offense to use it
B) Sometimes switching isn't your best option

A) I'll be diplomatic and say this is a matter of opinion, but i'd say Scizor and Jirachi abuse U-turn while being excellent at offence, while U-turn keeps things like Infernape actually competitive. In addition, the three banned pokemon (Genesect, Tornadus-T, and Landorus-I) with U-turn would probably be retested with the move banned, similar to Garchomp during the Sand Veil suspect test. {please dont take that comparison out of context and go "omgg he says Sand Veil = U-Turn!!!" I dont. It's an example of a retest that happened during/after a suspect test}
B) Well that much is clear Stealth rocks is the best move in the game using it every turn is pretty ineffective, U-turn is meant to be used situationally of course, and in those situations it's so powerful it merits at least consideration of it being broken. I'm not saying it is, i dont know; but everyone need sot at least understand the reasons someone would think so
 
Not that it's entirely relevant, but what makes U-turn more "broken" in BW2 then it was in DPPt, where it was even more powerful because there was no team preview and Flygon could abuse it?

There are not a lot of mons with U-turn. There are 3 U-Turn users left in OU: Scizor, Jirachi, and Celebi. Jirachi is a nice scarf user but its U-turn is so weak that the opponent can always predict and stay in. It might as well use Baton Pass in most situations (except against the Latis). Celebi prefers Baton Pass. Scizor is more powerful, but that's why it is always number 1 in usage. If you don't like U-Turn, don't use the Lati twins. Otherwise it's just a simple move that allows Scizor to scout with authority and Jirachi to bounce in and out. Infernape sucks if you like its U-turn that much then go ahead and use it, and Gliscor and Hydregion have better things to do.

Sure, Xatu, Mew, Crobat, and Mienshao all have their uses, but again, if you want to use them go ahead and use U-turn, I won't be complaining.

As for the suspects that have been banned. Landorus and Tornadus-T would probably be allowed back in if they didn't have U-turn, but are those two arguably broken mons really worth the radical step of banning a move? If Tornadus-T was back, you'd still have to have Jirachi or Rotom-W on every team just like back in the day. And Genesect was banned for its Rock Polish set. It's like a RP Landorus that you can't revenge kill and is easy to set up.

EDIT @Nysyr: Forgot about Landorus-T. He's a good abuser. Thundy-T is using Volt Switch, Thunderus-I is SR weak, and I addressed Gliscor, Infernape, and Hydregion above
 
Not that it's entirely relevant, but what makes U-turn more "broken" in BW2 then it was in DPPt, where it was even more powerful because there was no team preview and Flygon could abuse it?

There are not a lot of mons with U-turn. There are 3 U-Turn users left in OU: Scizor, Jirachi, and Celebi. Jirachi is a nice scarf user but its U-turn is so weak that the opponent can always predict and stay in. It might as well use Baton Pass in most situations (except against the Latis). Celebi prefers Baton Pass. Scizor is more powerful, but that's why it is always number 1 in usage. If you don't like U-Turn, don't use the Lati twins. Otherwise it's just a simple move that allows Scizor to scout with authority and Jirachi to bounce in and out. Infernape sucks if you like its U-turn that much then go ahead and use it, and Gliscor and Hydregion have better things to do.

Sure, Xatu, Mew, Crobat, and Mienshao all have their uses, but again, if you want to use them go ahead and use U-turn, I won't be complaining.

As for the suspects that have been banned. Landorus and Tornadus-T would probably be allowed back in if they didn't have U-turn, but are those two arguably broken mons really worth the radical step of banning a move? If Tornadus-T was back, you'd still have to have Jirachi or Rotom-W on every team just like back in the day. And Genesect was banned for its Rock Polish set. It's like a RP Landorus that you can't revenge kill and is easy to set up.

Ones you clearly missed... (and not even touching VS lol...)

Lando-T
Thundy-T
Tornadus-I
Gliscor
Hydreigon
Infernape
 
Just chiming in for discussion's sake;

To the argument that it damages the opponent: inherently, the move is at a rather low base power. If it had a base power of even 10 more many people would have questioned its place in the metagame already. Scizor, the only Pokemon competitively who gets STAB on it, appreciates U-Turn because of the killing 2 birds with 1 stone adage; it massively dents the opponent, and lets the user switch to an appropriate counter. Even if U-Turn were resisted in this scenario, the user gets the upper hand in every case as long as they have a decent counter. The point I'm trying to make is that I feel a lot of bias is put into thinking that U-Turn is broken simply because Scizor is the one most commonly seen using it. If Scizor didn't get U-Turn I'm positive that many people wouldn't even think to use it, as it's something that almost defines it. Sure, it has Technician Bullet Punch and is a trapper, but still. If U-Turn was only distributed on Mons without STAB advantage (ie everything except Scizor), no one would be complaining, because it would essentially be just double switching while inflicting negligible to somewhat moderate damage. If someone may think U-Turn to be broken, it's because of Scizor. And yet, Scizor does have plenty of counters; steel being one of the most abundant types in OU, and there are countless things that resist Bug. Yes, the opponent gains momentum, and yes they barely have any thinking to do; but some sort of prediction has to go into using U-Turn; otherwise, what's the difference between just double switching? I don't think U-Turn is broken, mainly because I don't think Scizor is broken. We also can't forget about passive damage like SR or Spikes plaguing it to infinity. What do y'all think...
 

panamaxis

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this is a really stupid thread, u-turn being broken....seriously? I guess i'll start with the landorus thing first

U-turn landorus-I isn't so dangerous because u-turn just gives them a switch advantage, it's dangerous because u-turn NUKES celebi/lati@s which are the premier landorus counters. U-turn is great on landorus because it hits those specific threats and completely eliminates them as reliable counters. i.e. U-turn landorus is excellent because it removes 3 counters/checks to a pokemon that already has limited counters/checks, NOT because it gives 'free momentum'.

If the move itself is broken it should be easily abusable regardless of which pkmn is using it.

SR/Sheer Cold/Double Team/Spore are arguably 'broken' moves because they are easily abusable regardless of the pokemon using it.
U-turn is not since it's dependant on the attributes of the pokemon using it (attack stat/how much pressure it puts on stuff to switch etc.). The former moves are all going to do the same thing regardless of which pokemon uses it.

U-turn is clearly not as good on magikarp as say scizor. This is an extreme example but hopefully it shows the point i'm trying to make. The former are examples where the move itself is the culprit. If the move is broken it should pretty much be as good on pokemon X as pokemon Y. If not, it's likely a symptom of the pokemon itself being too good rather than the move.
 
If the move is broken it should pretty much be as good on pokemon X as pokemon Y.
That doesn't really work. For instance, Double Team is nowhere as good on Sunkern as on say Jolteon because Sunkern is so slow that only Ferrothorn is really slower and hence anything that outspeeds can OHKO whereas Jolteon can actually use it.
 

Laga

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SR/Sheer Cold/Double Team/Spore are arguably 'broken' moves because they are easily abusable regardless of the pokemon using it.
U-turn is not since it's dependant on the attributes of the pokemon using it (attack stat/how much pressure it puts on stuff to switch etc.). The former moves are all going to do the same thing regardless of which pokemon uses it.

U-turn is clearly not as good on magikarp as say scizor. This is an extreme example but hopefully it shows the point i'm trying to make. The former are examples where the move itself is the culprit. If the move is broken it should pretty much be as good on pokemon X as pokemon Y. If not, it's likely a symptom of the pokemon itself being too good rather than the move.

So what you are saying is that a move is only broken if all pokemon that learn it can use it effectively. So basically you think Paras is effective in the OU metagame for it's ability to put things to sleep. Or maybe a Pawniard for setting up Stealth Rock. The thing is, these moves actually work the same way is U-Turn in your measuring, since some pokemon use it better than others.

Another example, this time maybe a but more serious would be like saying offensive Life Orb Nidoking is just as good of an offensive Rock setter as Sash lead Terrakion. This is not true, as Terrakion's speed and attacking prowess combined with not having to rely on Life Orb make it a much better option almost 100% of the time.

The same with this one = Breloom is often better at using Spore than Amoonguss in the current metagame, as Breloom uses the turn(s) much more effectively to potentially set up for a sweep.

And what do you know, it goes again in this next example = Scizor often uses the move U-Turn much better than Jirachi, since it forces switches to allow U-Turn to be used at it's full potential; Gaining completely free offensive momentum.

Every single move in the game have pokemon that use it well and pokemon that don't use it nearly as well, and this does not even differ with uncompetetive moves like Double Team. Obviously Giratina would be better at using Double Team than Sunkern. Btw, I think this thread is very good, as it is pretty obvious that U-Turn might just be one of the reasons why stall is pretty bad = you cannot counter something if they get a free switch from not even thinking, and some good posts have been made to talk for or against U-Turn being unhealthy for the metagame.
 

panamaxis

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sigh i knew someone would take issue with my extreme example...

Like I said, that was an extreme analogy, not EVERY pokemon has to use it well, but when the move is a problem only on a select few pkmn that's likely a problem with the pkmn rather than the move.

for a more realistic example let's take scald. Scald is pretty much as good on starmie as it is on most other decent water types because it's really spammable and you can't really do much against it in terms of counterplay apart from using a select few pokemon or just risking the burn.

Those moves really don't work in the same way that u-turn does. How good u-turn is depends on a lot of things

a) the attack stat of the pokemon using it
b) how easily that pokemon forces a switch
c) the typing of the pokemon using it
I could go on but you get the idea...

U-turn is good on landorus because it forces switches easily and u-turn hits a couple of its select few counters
U-turn is good on genesect/scizor because of stab and because they both force switches easily.
There's a couple of others that u-turn is good on but that's just because the pokemon themselves are good rather than the move imo.

In general, u-turn is really not that great of a move.
 
Scizor is the only mon that gets STAB on it as well as having business running U-Turn outside of Volbeat and Beedrill in NU/PU, as most other Bug-types that get it have better things to do/pathetic attack.

Looking on the list, it is used by most Flying-types and some random fast Pokémon, and most don't get STAB on it.

This being said, U-Turn is good on Scizor (STAB) and Landorus (hits counters hard) and some Choiced Pokémon. I don't see it being broken, but it is an annoying move and I can see it being more frustrating in OU because of the aforemented Scizor and Landorus, but outside of these two, nothing really has a dangerous U-Turn. Even moreso because U-Turn has a tendency to provide only redundant coverage. Grass-types won't switch into a Braviary or Infernape, Psychic-types won't switch into a Hydreigon or Jirachi and Dark-types won't switch into a Mienshao or Primeape.
 
panamaxis said:
a) the attack stat of the pokemon using it
b) how easily that pokemon forces a switch
c) the typing of the pokemon using it
A) No
B) No
C) No

These are not the point. The possible brokenness of U-Turn is not centered around the damage it deals. No one ever said "U-Turn is broken as it lets Landorus-I beat Celebi because the move is so strong and powerful!" The debate is mainly centered around the ability of U-turn to take skill out of the game by reducing the need for offensive players to predict and eliminating the risk of a double switch while reaping all the rewards. The only reason damage comes into play is to separate it from baton pass: baton pass does a similar thing, but it is possible to switch out continuously when the opponent uses baton pass, while it is not with U-trun, due to the minor (usually around 10%) damage it inflicts, which adds up. So could we please not talk about U-turns inability to nuke things because unless I'm wrong that has never been the point of this discussion. Thank you
 

Laga

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Shrug surely hit the whole point of this thread in his post above this one IMO. This thread is not questioning which pokemon use U-Turn well and why, but rather the fact that the move gives you a completely free delicious lump of offensive momentum.

If your opponent is using an offensive core of Rotom-W + Scizor and your defensive core is phys defensive Skarmory and spec defensive Celebi, you should be having the upper hand everytime, since you have direct counters to both of the pokemon in the offensive core of your opponent's team. But you don't, because if your opponent gets in Rotom on Skarmory or Scizor in on Celebi, he can just spam U-Turn and Volt Switch until 1) you decide to leave in Skarmory and Roost just to break the shitty cycle or 2) you decide to switch into some other pokemon on your team in which case your opponent gets a complete free switch into a check. All these turns, however long that may be, your opponent did not have to predict anything at all, yet he still had complete control over all for of momentum. Let's put that on Risk vs. Reward which is something all players should be playing after. Litte to no risk, gigantic reward. I believe that this is the entire reason for making this thread, not how powerful it's abusers are. If it is impossible to switch into without huge risk, then why would it matter how much damage it does?
 
you cant just say uturn is broken because it adds residual damage and baton pass does not. last time i checked hazards existed. in addition you dont have to switch out every time they uturn. yes uturn is good but it is not broken
 
Houndoomsday said:
you cant just say uturn is broken because it adds residual damage and baton pass does not. last time i checked hazards existed. in addition you dont have to switch out every time they uturn. yes uturn is good but it is not broken
I never said that U-Turn was broken due to residual damage. Actually, I never said U-Turn was broken at all, people just assume i think so because I'm explaining the reasoning why someone would think it's broken. I don't know if it is or isn't broken, but the point is, on one side you have the people who think U-turn is broken who have made key points, in particular that using U-turn eliminates skill (no need to double switch to apply offensive pressure) and ensures that a player can mindlessly keep the momentum by U-tuning to a check/counter for whatever you've switched in. The people who think U-turn isn't broken seem to either say "lol suspecting U-turn what a joke" or argue completely irrelevant points ("U-turn is weak"; "all the good users have been banned to ubers"; "it didn't break x y or z") instead of contradicting the main points that the Ban side made. It's completely fine to think U-turn isn't broken, but the debate over it would work best if it was focused on arguing;
A) The key points made by the people who want to ban U-Turn are incorrect
B) The key points made by the people who want to ban U-Trun are true, but they do not merit a ban;
instead of spouting non-sequitors.
 
I don't see U-Turn as broken.
It isn't extremely powerful, especially when non-STAB'd.
And sure it can give a tactical advantage, but it is not something that can not be played around and even played against.

If the residual damage from U-Turn is broken, then SR and Spikes are downright insane. In fact, the very existence of these works counter to U-turn shenanigans.

Until U-Turn polarizes the game, that is that it prevents any other types of play, then I don't think it is something that warrants a ban.

It should be considered that U-Turn is not only existent in the OU tier, and while used, U-Turn is not nearly as contested in lower tiers such as UU or NU.
 
The only reason I feel that U-Turn isn't broken is because we have team preview. If we didn't, then it'd be a real problem. U-Turn isn't an instawin button, just a solid utility option.
 
U-turn and Volt Switch are not broken, but extremely powerful and braindead. I think Game Freak should change those moves so that they have -1 priority, because right now, it's too easy to find yourself in a situation like "you're either gonna die, or give me switch initiative". Too often it's the best thing you could possibly do, taking absolutely no risks and not even having to predict anything, you can "just do it". It covers both the options of staying in and switching out. If Game Freak gave it -1 priority, it would only cover the option of switching out, while the other option is covered only partially, because you're forced to take a hit before being able to damage the opponent.
 

ShootingStarmie

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U-turn and Volt Switch are not broken, but extremely powerful and braindead. I think Game Freak should change those moves so that they have -1 priority, because right now, it's too easy to find yourself in a situation like "you're either gonna die, or give me switch initiative". Too often it's the best thing you could possibly do, taking absolutely no risks and not even having to predict anything, you can "just do it". It covers both the options of staying in and switching out. If Game Freak gave it -1 priority, it would only cover the option of switching out, while the other option is covered only partially, because you're forced to take a hit before being able to damage the opponent.

Why are you suggesting GF should change U-turn / Volt Switch's mechanics if you don't think it's broken? If you want something nerfing surely that just show's it's broken? Also, you didn't give any reasoning as to why you don't think it's broken, in fact your post done the opposite.

The only reason I feel that U-Turn isn't broken is because we have team preview. If we didn't, then it'd be a real problem. U-Turn isn't an instawin button, just a solid utility option.
This doesn't go much into detail, as U-turn was around in gen 4 (where there was no team preview) and no one considered U-turn broken. Now I know the metagame has obviously changed since then, but saying it would be broken without Team Preview doesn't say much, nor do I think it's accurate.
 
can you please stop using the layers argument @ whoevers using it in this thread. its fucking retarded because you seem to fail to understand layers go both ways. if you think layers are bad for the person that is using uturn, imagine how bad they are for the person that is getting hit by uturn.

so yeah please forget layers exist because they just make uturning stronger, not weaker, and you look dum when you assume theyll be up only on one side.
 

Pocket

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There are many reasons why U-turn is undesirable, and Shrug has listed the major ones:

1. Circumvents the risks involved with switching - you will always get the upperhand or at least not take major losses from switching out
2. It punishes opponents from switching, even though that's the most desirable option otherwise
3. It exacerbates entry hazard damage by forcing many switches (Deo Spike-stacking VoltTurn Offense is as brainless as it gets)
4. Forces many 50/50 scenarios that broke multiple Pokemon
5. It is widely distributed, allowing a team to heavily abuse VoltTurn with high success

Reasons 4 & 5 are the main reasons why we're pushing for a test on U-turn rather than Volt Switch / Baton Pass

Basically U-turn takes skill out from the match by giving you many safe switch-in opportunities and favorable match-ups with very little to no cost. All the while it adds chip damage, unlike Baton Pass, and it cannot be blocked by immunity, unlike Volt Switch.
 

ShootingStarmie

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can you please stop using the layers argument @ whoevers using it in this thread. its fucking retarded because you seem to fail to understand layers go both ways. if you think layers are bad for the person that is using uturn, imagine how bad they are for the person that is getting hit by uturn.

so yeah please forget layers exist because they just make uturning stronger, not weaker, and you look dum when you assume theyll be up only on one side.

Yeah, I think curtains made this arguement, as I responded to with this...

"But in all seriousness, Curtains, if you're going to assume hazards are on one side of the field, you need to assume it on your side of the filed too. The U-turn user isn't just hitting you with a U-turn, they're also gaining infomation on what you switch into the Pokemon that uses U turn, along with you taking entry hazards damage, and gaining momentum, which will then lead you to probably switching again and taking more entry hazards damage..."Sweet""

Let's just say he didn't respond :]
 
I think U-turn needs to go under the same category as stealth rock, it's really powerful and it reshapes the metagame but we live with it anyways. I know there are tons of people that want stealth rock banned, u-turn banned, and politoed (drizzle) banned. There will always be something at the top of OU, if you ban it then there will be something else at the top of OU, you can keep banning but the problem with never be solved until magikarp is ubers.
 
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