Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

[Haruno]

What are your thoughts on Arceus-Steel? I think it could serve relatively the same purpose, but has higher bulk in general and is a better CM mono-attacker (and Recover does work more effectively in a pinch). It also has a lot more offensive presence than Jirachi as well considerably better stats. It takes less damage from Fire Blast, but obviously takes a lot more from Aura Sphere.

Stacking up our fighting weakness is a terrible idea.

 

[akuto]

1. Yes, true, I did say that Jirachi has low offensive presence, but U-Turn is not for attacking purposes. The damage from U-Turn does add to LO recoil and other residual damage, which is a plus, but the point of U-Turn is to slowly switch out to a scarfed / priority user to revenge kill Mewtwo. Seeing as Mewtwo can't take down Jirachi in most circumstances, and Mewtwo is naturally faster than Jirachi, it is almost guaranteed that the revenge killer you wish to use will come in relatively unscathed. This combined with possible Wish support makes it usesful.

2. I'm not sure just how relevant Mewtwo vs. Jirachi is to the CCAT, but seeing as we have no control over the weather, Jirachi is at risk of being 2HKO'd in neutral weather or OHKO'd in Sun. That's probably one of the reasons we didn't pick Jirachi. However, outside of the CCAT, Jirachi is one of the better checks/counters (which one is it?) to Mewtwo seeing as it will be able to do the things mentioned above as well and have rain support as well.

u-turning out adds LO Damage to who? mewtwo? not all mewtwos carry LO, and mewtwo having i believe the second best speed stat in the tier means it can outspeed virtually anything. Which means that unless we still have terrakion you're toast, and it takes two turns to set up wish and then u-turn being MUCH slower then mewtwo means that either die and waste two turns or switch into something leaving mewtwo to do big damage which i don't think the higher rank players would be stupid enough to use fire blast on wish when terrakion is still there so terrakion is a goner or he takes a fire blast to the face.

mewtwo using fire blast is ttar pursuit bait
also akuto i was making a point of jirachi vs dialga for a spot on the team, and dialga does not beat mewtwo rly well

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga: 359-424 (88.86 - 104.95%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga: 239-283 (59.15 - 70.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

56+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo: 178-211 (50.28 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

meaning after I hit you with any attack on the switch in I can just cm and take the draco, then OHKO with aura sphere. also 14.8% of mewtwo carry aura sphere while 3% carry fire blast
gratz

i can't tell if you're suggesting that jirachi iss a better check to mewtwo then dialga and daying she should replace him, or saying the opposite?

 

[blitzlefan]

u-turning out adds LO Damage to who? mewtwo? not all mewtwos carry LO, and mewtwo having i believe the second best speed stat in the tier means it can outspeed virtually anything. Which means that unless we still have terrakion you're toast, and it takes two turns to set up wish and then u-turn being MUCH slower then mewtwo means that either die and waste two turns or switch into something leaving mewtwo to do big damage which i don't think the higher rank players would be stupid enough to use fire blast on wish when terrakion is still there so terrakion is a goner or he takes a fire blast to the face.

i can't tell if you're suggesting that jirachi iss a better check to mewtwo then dialga and daying she should replace him, or saying the opposite?

Well, Life Orb is used by Mewtwo 53.054% of the time, so it's not too bad of an assumption. Also, what I meant by damage was U-Turn damage combined with possible Toxic or Life Orb damage. The calculations I procured mean that outside of Fire Blast, Mewtwo cannot really damage Jirachi. I'm not supporting Jirachi really, I'd rather look at an Arceus form with offensive presence, but these are just some of the things Jirachi can do. We already chose an offensive style and I don't think that Jirachi fits particularly well though.

Also, Haruno, that really was not very helpful at all. But I guess Extreme Killer Arceus could deal with scarfed Dragons with ExtremeSpeed while covering Mewtwo as well. Thoughts? I do like Arceus-Steel though simply by virtue of its typing and stats.

 

[Haruno]

How was it not helpful?
Atm we have darkrai, terra, dialga, Latios and a deo-s

Deo-s is a suicide lead and won't be tanking hits.
Three of our team members are already weak to fighting though we do have a resist in Latios which isn't exactly the best tank.
Throwing in arceus steel to our already fighting weak team is an awful idea. I don't even know why you would suggest it in the first place.

 

[blitzlefan]

In both cases, for Giratina-O and Rayquaza, scarfed Dragons scare this team a lot. Needing Dialga to tank every Dragon-type move aimed at our team puts a LOT of pressure on it. Deoxys-S, Terrakion, Darkrai, Latios, Giratina-O, and Rayquaza will NOT like taking a Draco Meteor or Outrage. Chances are, they'll be easily KO'd, and Defensive Dialga can only take so much.

... not really sure what we can do about this, except Arceus-Steel > Dialga (it was my set so maybe I can suggest this?) does anybody have any ideas around our lack of Dragon resistances or any comments about this idea?

Sorry, I guess this got lost and I probably should have restated this, but I'm suggesting Arceus-Steel over Dialga, and wondering if we can generate some discussion over this. We still have the same number of Fighting weaknesses, but this allows us to handle Dragon-types a lot better and Dialga's roles can be usurped by Darkrai and Giratina-O/Rayquaza (whichever one we pick last b/c I'm pretty sure it's going to be one of the two.)

 

[akuto]

How was it not helpful?
Atm we have darkrai, terra, dialga, Latios and a deo-s

Deo-s is a suicide lead and won't be tanking hits.
Three of our team members are already weak to fighting though we do have a resist in Latios which isn't exactly the best tank.
Throwing in arceus steel to our already fighting weak team is an awful idea. I don't even know why you would suggest it in the first place.

do you ever read anything haruno ":P" then you would find we are disccusing dragons in which our team has no reliable way to counter scarf sweeper dragons steel types came up

 

[tutterydiglett]

Yeah, I think CM Arceus Steel is our only way to solve our dragon problem. That would stack up on our fighting weakness, but we can use Rayquaza or Giratina-O in our last slot, who both resist/immunte to fighting types. But that would also give us ANOTHER weakness to dragon, so did anyone consider Mewtwo?

 

[lousy918]

uh, it doesn't solve kabutops? or excadrill, blaziken or omastar. terrakion can revenge adamant kabutops lacking aqua jet. blaziken and excadrill can be solved with rayquaza or gira-o, but unfortunately after a smash omastar is rather hard to beat, with its counters being stuff like ferrothorn with power whip (takes 80%) and water types and shit like scarfedquaza.
edit: yeah I forgot to mention that

 

[Sweep]

uh, it doesn't solve kabutops? or excadrill, blaziken or omastar. terrakion can revenge adamant kabutops lacking aqua jet. blaziken and excadrill can be solved with rayquaza or gira-o, but unfortunately after a smash omastar is rather hard to beat, with its counters being stuff like ferrothorn with power whip (takes 80%) and water types and shit like scarfedquaza.

Omastar will find no opportunities to smash against this team. Sure, it will do some damage and possibly take out a pokemon, but its success will be limited to revenge killing. Even though Omastar is more powerful in general, Kingdra is a bigger threat to this team.

 

[Haruno]

do you ever read anything haruno ":P" then you would find we are disccusing dragons in which our team has no reliable way to counter scarf sweeper dragons steel types came up

I read that much and then I read you suggesting steelceus. Which wouldn't be a bad idea IF we didnt already have 3 mons that are weak to fighting. Unless we're talking about replacing dialga with steelceus (which would be an excellent idea), Ofherwise if not we can't afford to run steelceus since blaziken even without a sd will lay massive dents on our team with a 252+ LO high jump kick and since we lack priority we can't revenge kill it either.

 

[Donkey]

The only option for this team is Arceus-Ghost. As it stands, the team is incredibly weak to opposing scarf Terrakion and has nothing that can come in on Rayquaza. Arceus-Ghost gives you another speedy offensive mon that can help deal with threats, while also validating Deoxys-S existence. Without a spinblocker, you might as well not run Deoxys-S.

I'm also surprised that this team does not have a Rayquaza. He is a staple on weatherless teams in Ubers. No matter what Arceus-Form you pick for the final slot this team will be inherently weak to weather based sweepers. Hard hitters like Zekrom will also tear through this team unless Arceus-Ground is added (which does not fit). I don't really see a way to make this team work.

 

[jackm]

Alright, guys, Submissions are open. However, if you stop reading here I won't even bother to consider your submission. Here's why.

As many have identified, this team is going to crash and burn unless we do some editing to what we already have. Because of this, your submissions should be in the following format.

6th slot Pokemon set, like normal submission

List of Pokemon sets, along with the team member that they are replacing

Example Submission (not real):

Hide

Bidoof @ Buck Teeth
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Grumpy Nature
- Tackle
- Surf
- Frenzy Plant
- Dark Void

Over Dialga:
Bibarel @ Buck Teeth
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Grumpy Nature
- Tackle
- Surf
- Frenzy Plant
- Dark Void

As usual, if you don't back up your submission it is subject to exclusion from the vote. When backing it up, don't just back up your proposed team members; this is the last leg of our journey, so you have to argue why your team is the best. Also, try not to change the team too much. Use discretion, basically.

Note: If you wish to tweak a set, just replace the original set entirely with the tweaked set.

 

[MMII]

Too lazy to do it but somebody suggest Ray (SD or mixed attacker) over Dialga. I think this has been discussed many times before that we don't need to repeat it. (along with max spatk CM ghostceus for the 6th slot)

 

[blitzlefan]

I think our sixth member needs to be Rayquaza. A staple on weatherless teams, Rayquaza gives us a way around weather sweepers while giving us strong priority and a win condition. I used Dragon Claw > Outrage because Rayquaza is still relatively slow and being locked onto Outrage just begs for Rayquaza to be revenge killed. With Dragon Claw, Rayquaza can deal heavy damage while maintaining versatility (such as using ExtremeSpeed to pick off whatever Dragon Claw weakens). Deoxys-S, Latios, Terrakion, and Darkrai are rougly still the same, but seeing as Darkrai can cover opposing Arceus-Ghosts, I've put Arceus-Ghost > Dialga, so we have a spinblocker, another Arceus-Normal check, something immune to Fighting-type moves, and another powerful sweeper / win condition. Arceus-Ghost is also immune to Fighting-type moves, which can be an issue. I decided we needed a bulkier spread on Arceus Ghost, so I went with 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe so we have something to tank scarfed Dragons and set up. I editted Terrakion's set so now it has Sleep Talk > Toxic, as we now have enough wallbreakers on this team, and things like Lugia and Ho-oh that Toxic would hit can be dealt with through Arceus-Ghost and Rayquaza / Latios, respectively. I also decided to change up the Darkrai set, making it a dual status Darkrai, as I believe that the Paralysis that Darkrai can inflict will be critical in helping facilitate a successful sweep by Latios / Arceus-Ghost. Focus Blast > Nasty Plot and Thunder Wave > Substitute were the changes here.

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Trait: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
- V-create
- ExtremeSpeed

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Focus Blast
- Recover

Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Deoxys-S @ Focus Sash
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Fire Punch

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Sleep Talk

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Trait: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Void
- Thunder Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast

 

[Haruno]

If we're allowed to revise this thread will never end since by rmt standards we're more than likely going to change the entire team

 

[jackm]

If you make unreasonably large changes to the team, I will probably omit your submission. I'd say that a rule of thumb is that you can add #6 and replace one other, but if you can provide a solid argument for another replacement I won't nix it. In general, though, keep it under two replacements.

 

[locoghoul]

I don't really see a way to make this team work.

which is why i think the one by one voting process is not ideal. The normal way people make teams is by starting with a core and then adding pokes while finally tweaking it once you have 5-6 members. Someone try to test this team with Steelceus in the end and see what I mean

 

[Sweep]

Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Sleep Talk

Darkrai @ Leftovers
Trait: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Void
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse

Deoxys-S @ Focus Sash
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature (+Speed, -SAtk)
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Punch
- Taunt

Adding:

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Trait: Multitype
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Focus Blast
- Recover

Replacing Support Dialga with Swords Dance Rayquaza:

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Trait: Air Lock
EV's: 4 HP, 252 Attack, 252 Speed
Jolly Nature (+Speed, - Special Attack)

- Swords Dance
- V-Create
- Extremespeed
- Outrage

Rayquaza has enough power to OHKO Kabutops and Kingdra without hazards and Omastar with SR. It also uses Toxic Chansey as set-up bait, something that troubles most of our team (not Terrakion of course). Latios can 2HKO with Psyshock after SR, but only beats it without taking a status if Chansey switches into Psyshock. Having extra insurance against one of the game's premier walls is nice.

 

[tutterydiglett]

We. need. Rayquaza. Its Air Lock can cancel out Rain and revenge kill Kingdra if needed.

6th Member:
DD Rayquaza

Rayquaza@LIFE ORB :)
Trait: Air Lock
Nature: Hasty
EVS: 252 Atk; 252 Spd; 4 HP
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Fire Blast
-Extremespeed

And CM Steel Arceus > Support Dialga
Arceus-Steel@Steel Plate
Nature: Calm
Trait: Multitype
EVS: 252 HP; 240 SpD; 16 SpA
- Calm Mind
- Judgement
- RECOVER
- Ice Beam

 

[Go10]

For god sake, stop playing rayquaza DD with lum berry. And care with Arceus, being slower as hell can be a huge pain to deal with.

 

[tutterydiglett]

For god sake, stop playing rayquaza DD with lum berry. And care with Arceus, being slower as hell can be a huge pain to deal with.

Well, doesn't LO severely lower Quaza's longevity? Lum Berry can also allow Quaza to take random Thunder Waves/WoWs once and hit back with the right move. And yeah, being slow with Arceus is kinda bad, but I dont know what spread to use then. Since you're more experienced, can you like suggest a different set then?

 

[Donkey]

Well, doesn't LO severely lower Quaza's longevity? Lum Berry can also allow Quaza to take random Thunder Waves/WoWs once and hit back with the right move. And yeah, being slow with Arceus is kinda bad, but I dont know what spread to use then. Since you're more experienced, can you like suggest a different set then?

Quaza isn't about longevity. It's about tearing massive holes in teams quickly.

 

[blitzlefan]

First, is my submission okay or is that too many changes?
I'm not sure about Skarmory (I might decide on Ferrothorn > Skarmory) and I've realized that Terrakion is extremely one-dimensional as a revenge killer. It's rather weak and being locked onto either of its STABs isn't the best. However, I guess that would mean only keeping Latios and Darkrai, which would probably change too much. Ferrothorn / Arceus-Ghost / Darkrai / Latios / Rayquaza / Terrakion seems okay to me though. (I'll edit my above post when I have time.)

I'm thinking about Ferrothorn because although it loses momentum, it checks Palkia, Zekrom, Genesect (to an extent), Kyogre, and Shaymin-S (to an extent).

Are there any comments on my current submission?

@justinhu, I'd highly recommend Recover over one of your coverage moves because we need Arceus-Steel to last and tank Dragon moves. Also, keep in mind that Rayquaza is much more likely to be attacked head-on rather than crippled with status due to its frailness.

 

[jackm]

Well, I think it's ok, but you probably want to add SR on there somewhere. You know, because it's SR.

 

[MMII]

Don't drop Deo S for anything that isn't another suicide hazards lead.