Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - DLC 2 Edition

[Manaphy]

The general negativity and discourse in this thread has been a bit painful to read so I'd like to put my two cents on to some topics here:

First off, as a avid user of screens historically, I'd like to say that while it's definitely a strong strategy at the moment, it does have some weaknesses:

1.) Ting-Lu. Aside from being by far the best check to Double Dance Miraidon in the game, Ting-Lu also improves your match-up against Screens greatly. Most Grimmsnarl on ladder lack Play Rough, so going Ting-Lu against them will often lead to an easy 2 layers of Spikes followed by a Whirlwind or Ruination on whoever they switch-in, which essentially ruins any chance of them sweeping with that mon. As a Dark-type, Ting-Lu is also immune to Taunt or Parting Shot by Grimmsnarl. Even Play Rough Grimmsnarl don't appreciate having to go against Ting-Lu, as Ting can tank several Play Roughs and set up Spike after Spike layer.

2.) General Building Level. This is something I can't fault people on too badly atm as the meta is still extremely fresh and resources such as samples haven't been made yet. But yes, if you're losing to Screens (or HO generally) all the time, the first thing I would do is to look over my teambuilding as a whole. You should not be auto-losing to any mon on HO if they're able to set-up. Do you have a solid Koraidon check like Arceus-Fairy or Skeledirge? Are you able to handle Double Dance Miraidon with something like Tera Steel/Fairy Ting-Lu or Clodsire? Are you running Defensive Tera Ground NDM to take on Caly-Ice, Kyu-B, or Zekrom? Defensive NDM by itself can greatly pressure Screens by setting up rocks or smacking Grimmsnarl with Sunsteel. How about revenge killing capability? Do you have a scarfer like Korai or Mirai, or at least a Zacian-C?

In fact, point #2 above can be applied to the meta as a whole, While it's still too early to tell anything off of tournament results, I can confirm by my own alt laddering as well as several other players that games usually do not come down to Tera 50/50s (itself often an oversimplified argument), and that getting GXEs of 85-90% is perfectly reasonable to do, and that most of these teams are not just spamming pure Hyper Offense. It is of course impossible to cover all the threats in the meta, but I think it's still perfectly reasonable to cover the main meta threats as well as have reasonable counterplay to the threats you may be weaker to through Tera, revenge killing capability, or simply playing better.

Most of the mons people are posting about being extremely OP on here have some counterplay:

Little needs to be said about how restrictive Scale Shot variants of this are to the builder. The simple fact is that Koraidon forces nearly every team composition to run multiple Fairy types. You cannot get away with having a single defensive check. Some players argue that a timely Tera Fairy from things like Ho-Oh, Lunala, and Arceus-Water can stop Korai immediately. I've started using Substitute over Low Kick to force a Tera Fairy from would-be "checks," only to OHKO them with +2 Flare Blitz. When it comes to checking Koraidon, you're forced to allocate at least two slots, use up at least two defensive tera types, and pack a revenge killer for insurance (although Tera Ghost Korai cucks priority moves from EKiller). Koraidon is about as oppressive to the builder as SV Calyrex-S was. Sure, Calyrex-S had no checks and could snowball way faster, but their overly restrictive stronghold on the builder is asinine. Calyrex-S mandated a Normal type + 1-2 more defensive tera's to "play around it." Koraidon is doing nearly the exact same thing. It's a bad faith argument to list a bunch of mons used in conjunction to check a single threat that can potentially out-predict and end games instantly. The most solid defensive core versus Scale Shot Koraidon is Tera Fairy Kyogre + Arceus-Fairy. While Koraidon will not (usually) outright win on the spot, a skillful player will force their opponent to use their Tera early on in the game and then take advantage of this interaction with other threats like Zacian-C & Miraidon. Remember, the game is a 6v6, not a 1v6

While I will agree that Koraidon definitely blurs the line between being oppressive and healthy for the meta, comparing it to Calyrex-S is not even a contest. Calyrex-S had essentially no switch-ins in the entire game, and the ones that even came close to checking it were terrible mons like Alolan-Muk. Meanwhile, Koraidon has a lot more viable checks and pseudo-checks like Arceus-Fairy, Skele, Lando-T, Arceus-Water, Kyogre, Flutter Mane, etc. Note that most of the mons I listed here are mons that you'd actually want to run regardless of their use for Koraidon.
Not to mention, Koraidon suffers greatly from having to make correct reads with Scale Shot and/or Flare Blitz prediction, being further vulnerable to all entry hazards in combination with Flare Blitz recoil, Rocky Helmet damage, and Scale Shot defense drops limits Koraidon in a way that Calyrex-S had nothing even close to deal with. Substitute can be funny but comes at a very large and obvious cost of losing Low Kick which severely limits Koraidon's sweeping potential and general utility.

Again, I do think Koraidon may be problematic for the current meta, but let's keep our arguments against it within reason and not compare it to SV Caly-S or Primal Groudon please

While not as oppressive as Koraidon, Miraidon has no defensive checks, thanks to Tera. It can power through every one of them. The way players deal with Miraidon is by revenge-killing it. However, on certain team structures, such as Screens Hyper Offense, Miraidon can afford to run a Weakness Policy Double Dance set, which can 6-0 teams on the spot if it's Tera Stellar. CM + Taunt Miraidon can single-handedly wipe fatter teams out, while Sub + CM Tera Flying Miraidon feasts on teams relying on Clodsire to check it.

Again this is a gross exaggeration of Miradon's power. To say that Miraidon has no defensive checks at all is just not true, and most teams successfully use Ting-Lu, Clodsire, and/or Arceus-Ground to deal with it. By itself Tera Steel/Fairy Ting-Lu deals with nearly every Miraidon set. Clodsire also deals with almost all sets besides Specs and the extremely rare Tera Flying set, which is a very specific set designed to counter-team one specific mon and which loses usefulness in the vast majority of matchups. Weakness Policy Tera Stellar Mirai is a meme set that gets Whirlwinded out by Ting-Lu at any time and Double Dance Miraidon has much better items and Tera Types to run. This is not to mention Miraidon's ability to be revenge killed and need for strong prediction ability thanks to nearly every team preparing for it with Ground types and Dragon resistances.

lastly, Ekiller being Ekiller is just annoying and the fact it tera into ghost to make Ditto useless or play a 50/50 is plainly bs. Add to that the fact that Koraidon runs Tera Ghost is just for Ekiller.

Ekiller had a pretty large drop in viability with the recent DLC thanks to NDM and Ho-Oh dropping giving it two new defensive checks that will be on a large amount of teams, so I wouldn't worry about Ekiller spam nearly as much as in DLC 1. Edgar addressed the rest of this post pretty well, but I'd also like to point out that I found it pretty interesting that you brought up Ditto as a bad point against this meta? Ditto is the laziest teambuilding pokemon ever designed (which goes to show me you probably didn't put too much thought in the team you laddered with) and most people complain about Ditto being too good as a bad sign of a metagame's general health, but now when Ditto is bad it's not a good thing?

Overall, I'd like to people to keep an open mind about the current meta and to keep experimenting with defensive cores. As I said before, offensive options are the most obvious things to build, and it takes a while for people to realize the good defensive ways to deal with it. It seems like many players here simply booted up some general BO they built in 2 minutes and got upset that they couldn't get to 1600 immediately.

I'd also like to reiterate that Tera is not on our radar at the moment and that Koraidon, if anything, is the most likely candidate.
I can agree with many that Tera has its flaws, but focusing on that at the moment is not going to be productive, so if you want to see a tiering change to the tier at all, please keep the discussion on Koraidon.

 

[Colteor]

Hey all, having a ton of fun building and playing the tier these past couple weeks. Most I've enjoyed the tier since pre home. Just wanted to say I think it's still way too early to be discussing bans when so many mons/styles are really underexplored right now. Stuff like Deo a, arc elec/fight, magearna, dawn wings, rayquaza. I'm willing to bet all of those mons have a ton of potential, and that stall/bulkier teams will eventually start coming back once people figure the meta out a little more. That is to say I hope nothing much changes before we at least get a big tour like uwc to mess around with the new meta. And happy new years btw!

 

[Zest of Life]

The general negativity and discourse in this thread has been a bit painful to read so I'd like to put my two cents on to some topics here:

First off, as a avid user of screens historically, I'd like to say that while it's definitely a strong strategy at the moment, it does have some weaknesses:

1.) Ting-Lu. Aside from being by far the best check to Double Dance Miraidon in the game, Ting-Lu also improves your match-up against Screens greatly. Most Grimmsnarl on ladder lack Play Rough, so going Ting-Lu against them will often lead to an easy 2 layers of Spikes followed by a Whirlwind or Ruination on whoever they switch-in, which essentially ruins any chance of them sweeping with that mon. As a Dark-type, Ting-Lu is also immune to Taunt or Parting Shot by Grimmsnarl. Even Play Rough Grimmsnarl don't appreciate having to go against Ting-Lu, as Ting can tank several Play Roughs and set up Spike after Spike layer.

2.) General Building Level. This is something I can't fault people on too badly atm as the meta is still extremely fresh and resources such as samples haven't been made yet. But yes, if you're losing to Screens (or HO generally) all the time, the first thing I would do is to look over my teambuilding as a whole. You should not be auto-losing to any mon on HO if they're able to set-up. Do you have a solid Koraidon check like Arceus-Fairy or Skeledirge? Are you able to handle Double Dance Miraidon with something like Tera Steel/Fairy Ting-Lu or Clodsire? Are you running Defensive Tera Ground NDM to take on Caly-Ice, Kyu-B, or Zekrom? Defensive NDM by itself can greatly pressure Screens by setting up rocks or smacking Grimmsnarl with Sunsteel. How about revenge killing capability? Do you have a scarfer like Korai or Mirai, or at least a Zacian-C?

In fact, point #2 above can be applied to the meta as a whole, While it's still too early to tell anything off of tournament results, I can confirm by my own alt laddering as well as several other players that games usually do not come down to Tera 50/50s (itself often an oversimplified argument), and that getting GXEs of 85-90% is perfectly reasonable to do, and that most of these teams are not just spamming pure Hyper Offense. It is of course impossible to cover all the threats in the meta, but I think it's still perfectly reasonable to cover the main meta threats as well as have reasonable counterplay to the threats you may be weaker to through Tera, revenge killing capability, or simply playing better.

Most of the mons people are posting about being extremely OP on here have some counterplay:

While I will agree that Koraidon definitely blurs the line between being oppressive and healthy for the meta, comparing it to Calyrex-S is not even a contest. Calyrex-S had essentially no switch-ins in the entire game, and the ones that even came close to checking it were terrible mons like Alolan-Muk. Meanwhile, Koraidon has a lot more viable checks and pseudo-checks like Arceus-Fairy, Skele, Lando-T, Arceus-Water, Kyogre, Flutter Mane, etc. Note that most of the mons I listed here are mons that you'd actually want to run regardless of their use for Koraidon.
Not to mention, Koraidon suffers greatly from having to make correct reads with Scale Shot and/or Flare Blitz prediction, being further vulnerable to all entry hazards in combination with Flare Blitz recoil, Rocky Helmet damage, and Scale Shot defense drops limits Koraidon in a way that Calyrex-S had nothing even close to deal with. Substitute can be funny but comes at a very large and obvious cost of losing Low Kick which severely limits Koraidon's sweeping potential and general utility.

Again, I do think Koraidon may be problematic for the current meta, but let's keep our arguments against it within reason and not compare it to SV Caly-S or Primal Groudon please

Never once did I compare Koraidon to Primal Groudon, that was done by Edgar. But point well-taken.

With regards to Miraidon, it literally has no defensive counterplay. Your counterplay relies on Tera; Ting-Lu and Clodsire are not absorbing more than 2 Draco's per game (when accounting for hazards because Ting-Lu will never be at full health). Also, calling WP Miraidon a meme set is a gross exaggeration. Every screens HO team can immensely benefit from its inclusion & I suggest an enthusiast like you try it out! It's one of the few sets that can actually 6-0 stall, which screens teams have a generally hard time breaking through. On another note, Grimmsnarl not running Play Rough or Spirit Break is objectively horrible.

Without you misconstruing my post, I implore you go back and read it carefully. I suggested Koraidon was the biggest thing to look at (hence why I discussed it first), with Tera and Miraidon being other problematic elements of the tier.

With regards to what Edgar and Taka wrote, I agree that a community survey can & should be done after UWC, but don't be surprised when the metagame in a few months doesn't drastically change or improve compared to what we have now (build a lot of teams, test them & you'll see what does + does not work). The level that Scale Shot Koraidon warps teambuilding is far greater than anything else I've seen this gen bar SV Caly-S, but I won't discuss that topic any further.

Finally with regard(s) to Ditto, I'll let OreoSpeedruns post his comments about it in a couple of hours.

Edit: Added a few points of clarification.

 

[Taka]

Hi, I didn't really want to make a post until I had a bit more experience in the tier, but I really do think its quite too early to make judgements as harsh as the others have. Koraidon is 100% a cut above the rest, but definitely isn't without any counterplay like has been stated above. As Edgar and Manaphy stated, Koraidon is immensely difficult to pivot around but there are soft pivots and checks that can limit it, when paired with good positioning and Tera, such as Kyogre, Zacian-C, Deoxys-A, Flutter Mane, Waterceus, Fairyceus, Ekiller, Ho-Oh, Lando-T, Gliscor, Skeledirge, Groudon. Yes, not all of this are as good as they were before, but the fact is that we have more options post DLC that are less passive and make it hard for Korai to pivot hard in / unable to click SD.

When I first started playing the tier, I was more worried about Koraidon and Miraidon in a tier where you may struggle to fit checks like Skeledirge, Clodsire, Ting-Lu, but it definitely isn't some clear cut tier where you can't check them at all. Zacian-C definitely has more issues now but its not super significant, and it is still an incredibly potent mon that offensively checks the entire tier. There will never be long term pivots in a tier this offensive. Building for that is not viable, nor feasible when the power level is this high and the defensive level isn't. What we have is a ton of defensive pivots and offensive checks to the big threats. Its a different tier than before, and thats the biggest thing that makes it so challenging to build right now.

What I can say with confidence is that it is way too early to determine brokenness for Koraidon or Miraidon. In my opinion, without tour games where building is optimized for these mons, it is a lot harder to really determine what the dominant threat is.

One big thing that pops up to me is how much of a meta impact Basculegion and Rayquaza Webs had during and after SCL because of how optimized HO, balance, and the tier in general had become.

I'm not entirely saying this from a theory point of view either, I've been building teams of different styles, including HO, BO, Balance, and have peaked the ladder with multiple of these. There are clear cut tiers of viability for sure, but I don't think either bike is broken enough to remove this early especially with how recent this tier is. I especially do not get the Calyrex-S comparisons, but that has already been discussed above by previous posts.

I also want to follow up on the Ditto point. Ditto is still bad, as it has been. It preys on the HO matchup, and thuds into BO and Balance, as it always has. Tera still flips its ability to revenge, Sub is a thing on Koraidon and Miraidon so they are flat out immune sometimes, and if Ditto copies Zacian-C on BO / balance it just gets worn down by hazards and pivoted into by NDM / Ho-Oh / fat Ground. Obviously there are some team comps that can make it work, but its high usage right now isn't really telling of much considering how new this tier is.

Anyways, I hope you guys have a great new year and look forward to UWC :)

 

[Manaphy]

Never once did I compare Koraidon to Primal Groudon, that was done by Edgar. But point well-taken.

The original was in fact made by LBN, which edgar (rightfully) refuted.
The point being that it's much more productive to discuss the actual problematic aspects of the mon (much of which you've said already and I think may be valid), rather than creating buzzword-like false comparisons which can be easily taken apart. It creates these side arguments which don't really contribute much.

With regards to Miraidon, it literally has no defensive counterplay.

Again this is greatly overstated and gives the wrong impression to many players so I feel the need to tackle it here.

Your counterplay relies on Tera; Ting-Lu and Clodsire are not absorbing more than 2 Draco's per game.

This statement isn't really true and it depends on a lot of variables here. Which Miraidon set are we talking about?

If it's Specs, then Ting-Lu in fact takes 3, and fair enough, Clodsire and Groundceus can't take 2. Though, I would also like to point out that Spec's usage has been down ever since the release of SV, as teams have been building around it and almost always have a Ground and Fairy/Steel, which forces Specs Mirai to always have to make the correct 50/50 to gain anything. Not to mention that Draco's SpAtk drops leave open set-up opportunities.

If its boots, then Ting easily takes 2 and Clodsire and Groundceus also tank it. Sure, you can Taunt Clodsire/Groundceus to prevent them from recovering, but this leaves you open to taking an Earthquake or Judgement. If Mirai U-Turns out on Ting, then that's a free Spikes or Ruination.

If its Life Orb Calm Mind Tera Dragon, then Miraidon needs a Calm Mind up and it has to use Tera to have a chance to break through, and even then, you can counter with your own Tera Steel/Fairy on your Ground-type to tank the Draco and proceed to force it out or cripple it.

If it's Double Dance, then they have no way to break through Ting-Lu reliably without prior damage on it, and only specific variants have a chance against Clodsire.

None of the above are reliant on Tera to take on Miraidon unless Miraidon has used Tera first.

Keep in mind this latest DLC also gave us NDM and Ho-Oh which can tank Draco and also often run Tera Ground and Earthquake, not to mention the mons we had previously which have use against Miraidon such as Zacian-C, Arceus-Fairy, Ekiller, etc.

Also, calling WP Miraidon a meme set is a gross exaggeration. Every screens HO team can immensely benefit from its inclusion & I suggest a master screens HO enthusiast like you to try it out!

No need to be sarcastic. I would much rather run more consistent items and Tera types like Electric Seed and Tera Dragon that provide more offensive and defensive utility without relying on screens being up and for my opponent to do a very specific action.

On another note, Grimmsnarl not running Play Rough or Spirit Break is objectively horrible.

Of course I'm aware but this does not reflect the reality that most ladder Screens teams run Parting Shot, especially where many new players to the tier may be struggling.

Finally with regard(s) to Ditto, I'll let OreoSpeedruns post his comments about it in a couple of hours.

I don't think Ditto has ever been above C rank in this entire generation. As taka mentions, it's only useful against HO and basically a lost slot against BO or Balance, so it shouldn't really be much of a relevant mon to talk about here.

Without you misconstruing my post, I implore you go back and read it carefully. I suggested Koraidon was the biggest thing to look at (hence why I discussed it first), with Tera and Miraidon being other problematic elements of the tier. I agree that a survey can & should be done after UWC, but don't be surprised when the metagame in a few months doesn't drastically change or improve compared to what we have now (build a lot of teams, test them & you'll see what works and what doesn't).

I indeed read your post and my post was not specifically meant just to tackle your post, but many different ones in this thread. I didn't mention anything about a survey so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up here? Regardless, as taka and edgar have said, I think it's being way too pessimistic to say that the meta and general building won't improve in months time. It's still very early in the development of the meta and I don't think it's helpful to just post in here complaining.

 

[Carl Murray]

Carl you know you are my g but, come on now. This post hardly expresses the depth of the topic you're speaking of and the fact that other people have used it as a compass to express their discomfort kinda speaks of the dynamics of SV in a very shallow and misleading way. I will go through your points one by one.

No it doesn't, it does not make your gameplan worthless and there is no mindgame lost. It seems we're going back to early SV times thinking tera revolves around "50-50s". Most arguments expressing discomfrort when it comes to tera revolve around this and it is hardly the case, tera types depend in their majority on teambuilding composition, there is always logic behind them. If you were in a position where Koraidon using Tera would end the game for you then it was probably because you put yourself there or your team was not good enough to account for Koraidon changing types. It is often not a matter of mindgames but rather of skillful play and building.



Can you provide concrete examples of this? How do you end up losing 2-3 turns after your opponent teras? What mons are unviable because of this dynamic? Yeah, activating your tera completely changes the outlook of the game, but that doesn't mean it is completely lost because your opponent did first. It is essentially one's trump card and you need to use it correctly. A skillful or bad tera can end games for you or your opponent respectively, it's not a one sided mechanic. It takes metagamme knowledge to know what tera types are more common on each mon, it comes with experience and play.


Miraidon is a mon that when it comes down to it, it has little potential to be checked defensively. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean that it's impossible to do so, If your team loses to any of the different sets Miraidon can use then it is simply not a good team, period. This is a top tier mon, you should be prepared to face even the most uncommon of its sets.


I've played against screens with more passive teams and never lost to them. I've also played screens with HO and never lost to a single screens team. Excuse the tone but, if you are having a hard time against screens then what are you even using? I am not saying playing against screens doesn't require a degree of good play but, at this point, if you can't comfortably beat screens then I don't know what to tell you, it's one of most common archetypes for a reason.


Ekiller doesn't use Ghost tera for Ditto, mainly for opposing ekiller and Koraidon's Low Kick. Koraidon uses Tera Ghost for Ekiller but that means fire moves will never get STAB boost, I think this is a very important point people miss talking about sometimes, the stuff you give up for using a certain tera type. If Miraidon uses tera fairy, it is not weak to Dragon or fairy but it is weak to Steel. If Koraidon uses tera fire it better end the game there, otherwise it is weak to rocks, not to mention, water and ground.

Gonna reply to this post too as it sits upon Carl's



1. I don't get how restriction in the builder is a cornerstone of pro-ban argument. Throughout its gens, Ubers has had more restrictive pokemon than Scale Shot Koraidon; Primal Groudon, Xerneas, Calyrex-S in gen 8, and none of them were considered banworthy when it came down to it. Needing multiple fairies is a fallacy, you can just run 1 fairy and a decent fire resist and play around it. Also, the fact that you need multiple phisically defenive mons on your team is not solely attributed to him, some of the best pokemon on the tier are physical sweepers; Necrozma, Ekiller, DD Groundceus, Rayquaza, to name a few. You need several physically defensive pokemon because just checking Koraidon doesn't win you the game. You also mention something important, Koraidon doesn't necessarily win on the spot, you are comparing to Caly-S, prior to Calyrex-S' ban, it was plainly obvious that the play who set up with him first won. Same was the case with pokemon like Mega-Rayquaza back in gen 6.

2. I've spoken enough on Tera and my stance is still the same, it is a healthy mechanic, it is nowhere near toxic as some people make it out to be, if Tera keeps Ubers playable as you mention in your post then it should not be a topic of discussion, plain and simple. The 50-50s argument has been oversaturated since the release of SV and as I've said many times before, those are often very specific and can be avoided a lot of times.

3. See what I replied to Carl addressing Miraidon. Some sets are often also telegraphed to the point where its easy to see them coming, personally, I don't see Miraidon sets as unpredictable as people make them out to be.

People are entitled to their opinion and it is often cathartic to post it here. But the way these posts are being written is by recycling the same arguments people have been using since the beginning of the genrration. I don't see how current gen is less playable than where it was prior to this DLC. I'd say we are well within the adaptation peiod and there is no clear "suspect" that just makes it not worth playing or simply uncompetitive. If those pokemon were as unhealthy and outright uncompetitive as recent posts have made them out to be, they would have been banned months ago.

Hey bro, thanks for the answer really appreciate it.
To be honest I was just giving my feelings about the meta, without ever implying a suspect or anything else. In fact, I never really agreed to ban anything (but Bp) in Ubers.

The teams I used were mostly Offensive ones, I have also tried the Fardin’s one and really did not have success with it. Used mostly Bikes, Zacian, Ekiller, tried Meteor Beam Agility Eternatus too.

Some examples of Tera making you lose games:
- Ghost Koraidon on Espeed that Swords Dance. The fact that Korai runs also Tera Fire is in a way a 50/50.
- Fire Caly-Ice into Zacian/Ho-oh

Just examples that come to mind but really express how I personally feel unfun to play the metagame. Maybe I just like movepool creativity over typing creativity but that’s how I feel playing SV.

While you can argue that you need to have knowledge about the metagame, which is totally true, you also have to keep in mind the metagame constantly changes and adapts. Which means for the time being you get surprise Teras and lose to them. Can’t tell you how many times my opponents forfeited after I used Sub Tera Flying Miraidon.

For Screens I used HO against them, and the combination of Screens + NDM and Caly Ice using Trick Room is too good to be slept on. It’s a really good playstyle and my point was to not underestimate that.

I didn’t expect those answers so thanks for the feedback, this is coming from someone who doesn’t have much time to play so it was just a feedback (which I stated to be uninteresting) and who didn’t got to read the whole thread, sorry Edgar :(

 

[S-Matrix]

man how do yall feel about the editions of the dlc2 for ubers and shit

pretty chill n shit

 

[Edgar]

Thoughts about the general perspective towards Koraidon's place in SV Ubers:

It is no surprise Koraidon is often brought up in the Ubers discord and the PS Ubers room. Nearly every day, I see somebody saying something about Koraidon has to be done. Nevertheless, the common speaker of this makes it sound more as if it were something akin to irrational hate-speech and is hardly based on sound logic when it comes down to it, but more on that later. This is not me trying to insult anybody, this is merely how it looks in my eyes.

I will say it again since I don't think people can really measure the prospect of a Koraidon ban compared to past suspects or bans in the Ubers tier. I've been playing this tier for 12 years now, I witnessed the Clauses suspects in BW, the Mega-Gengar and Shadow Tag suspects in XY and even made a whole thread in an attempt to convince people Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence needed to be banned from ORAS back in 2015 (my perspective has changed since then and I dont think that anymore). I was also there during the Zacian(s) and Calyrex-S suspects during SS. Truth is, neither Koraidon nor Miraidon warp the metagame as much as those pokemon did back in their respective gens and, more often than not, those pokemon have stayed in the tier for one reason or another. This is something I will keep repeating not because I think people should stay in the past or because I think Koraidon should be compared to those suspects, but mainly because I believe the bar for considering a pokemon ban-worthy is currently being set too low in my eyes. And while a suspect doesn't necessarily mean a ban, suspects are often propelled because there is enough of an outcry of people that want some form of action to happen, among other reasons.

I have posted several times and had many discussions in different channels about Koraidon, so I won't get into the specifics that back down my opinion yet again, if you want you can read these posts I made in the past DLC thread and also one I posted in this one a few weeks ago. If you want a quick summary: the gist of it is that, Koraidon's Scale Shot set and its derivatives are far more manageable and less constraining than the people who want it gone believe.

Regardless of what I think about Koraidon, I believe some of the outcry for a potential suspect is heavily misguided and uses a rhetoric that has to do more with emotion, finger-pointing and name-calling, not logic. Many of the general discussions I've seen in the different channels of the community often result in somebody saying "If you think X is not broken, youre dumb, sry" and "if you think X is good vs Koraidon then youre ass, sry", not to mention the several times I've heard the louder users randomly say "this metagame is shit because Koraidon hasn't been banned yet" or "Dealing with Koraidon always comes down to 50/50s, If you think otherwise you are bad", followed by no arguments to back down such inflamatory statements.

This ad-hominem rhetoric has gone far enough and I believe in the long run it will do more bad than good to Ubers. I don't say people aren't entitled to their opinion but, if statements such as these are laying the groundwork on which a community survey will probably propel a suspect and a potential ban, then the tier leaders, the council and ultimately we as a community are failing as a whole.

I agree that Koraidon the strongest pokemon in the tier, I agree that there are many situations in which 50/50s exist in Pokemon and I sympathize with people thinking it might be worth doing something about it. However, I do not agree with refusing to adapt to it and refusing to consider that maybe many of the situations where 50/50s exist can be avoided. And I also refuse to accept that this pokemon may potentially be gone out of sheer hate and spite from the loudest users.

Just my dragged 2 cents, kinda felt it needed to be said, we are about to start the first team tournament and if history is any guide, stuff like the one I mentioned will be recurring in the following weeks because of it.

 

[Zest of Life]

Even if there’s no suspect test in the immediate future, I’m still a strong advocate for having a general community survey prior to the start of UWC. It would be interesting to see where the general community and experienced players stand on the current state of the tier. I understand it’s still relatively early since DLC2 released (well it’s almost been a month but that’s besides the point). No immediate tiering action would be required when the results of the pre-UWC survey become available, but should certain elements of the tier still remain divisive post-UWC, then another survey and proper suspect test can occur.

I would also like to get the views of other council members as well as the TLs about where they stand on the state of the tier and which contentious elements are worth looking into. Edgar, Manaphy, and Taka have already made it clear about their stance on Koraidon, but I would like to hear about the informed opinions of other established players and council members alike.

Edit: Also, I’m open to hearing the thoughts of the general community as well.

 

[LouisIX]

short before work:
1. I am pretty sure that Koraidon will be easily getting a suspect whenever the first survey result of DLC2 released. No matter in what way you make arguements on it, community opinion speaks themselves. Its just the council will to decide when to do the survey and its also the council will to follow the standard procedure on suspecting koraidon, and nothing more need to say. Discussing Koraidon brokennes rn is just waste of time imo.

2. Personally, I think tera is the topic that needs to be addressed even before koraidon, though I am afraid that a simple ban/retain option is never the best solution to it in order to keep the balance of "retaining CG mechanism" while "balancing" because obvly it just give up one or the other.
But apparenrly not a single tier is applying a concept of tera list or sth close to it, so I guess thats sth beyond my understanding of competitiveness and I will leave it here.

3. Miraidon is a tricky one. It doesn't really rely on tera much to function as its just naturally so powerful you barely need an offensive tera on it. often time we see miraidon defensive tera just to bypass offensive check such as EK or scarf koraidon. Miraidon is close to no defensive check, but at least in DLC1 people are somehow feeling tolerable to this characteristic as offensive is impressively good in the meta. DLC2 added more mold breaker sweeper which further depressing the defensive options, and as miraidon is facing less and less defensive team, the power of specs is no longer required and the drop of spa on draco meteor is becoming more concerning as in this offensive meta giving a turn is usually crucial. The problem is, will the meta remains ultra offensive after some ban happened? Clearly in the progress of SV ubers since nov 22, miraidon is more broken in pre-home and pre-home is balancing spamming.

To conclude, I think miraidon should be on the radar, but probably more time is needed for the community to determine its brokeness after meta changes.

 

[MC Squared]

Big news regarding the Calyrex forms

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1745552755043996099

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1745552756549828734

 

[Pigbeeef]

Big news regarding the Calyrex forms

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1745552755043996099

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1745552756549828734

icicle spear calyrex s is crazy, too bad i cant use it

 

[Aberforth]

Thoughts about the general perspective towards Koraidon's place in SV Ubers:

It is no surprise Koraidon is often brought up in the Ubers discord and the PS Ubers room. Nearly every day, I see somebody saying something about Koraidon has to be done. Nevertheless, the common speaker of this makes it sound more as if it were something akin to irrational hate-speech and is hardly based on sound logic when it comes down to it, but more on that later. This is not me trying to insult anybody, this is merely how it looks in my eyes.

I will say it again since I don't think people can really measure the prospect of a Koraidon ban compared to past suspects or bans in the Ubers tier. I've been playing this tier for 12 years now, I witnessed the Clauses suspects in BW, the Mega-Gengar and Shadow Tag suspects in XY and even made a whole thread in an attempt to convince people Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence needed to be banned from ORAS back in 2015 (my perspective has changed since then and I dont think that anymore). I was also there during the Zacian(s) and Calyrex-S suspects during SS. Truth is, neither Koraidon nor Miraidon warp the metagame as much as those pokemon did back in their respective gens and, more often than not, those pokemon have stayed in the tier for one reason or another. This is something I will keep repeating not because I think people should stay in the past or because I think Koraidon should be compared to those suspects, but mainly because I believe the bar for considering a pokemon ban-worthy is currently being set too low in my eyes. And while a suspect doesn't necessarily mean a ban, suspects are often propelled because there is enough of an outcry of people that want some form of action to happen, among other reasons.

I have posted several times and had many discussions in different channels about Koraidon, so I won't get into the specifics that back down my opinion yet again, if you want you can read these posts I made in the past DLC thread and also one I posted in this one a few weeks ago. If you want a quick summary: the gist of it is that, Koraidon's Scale Shot set and its derivatives are far more manageable and less constraining than the people who want it gone believe.

Regardless of what I think about Koraidon, I believe some of the outcry for a potential suspect is heavily misguided and uses a rhetoric that has to do more with emotion, finger-pointing and name-calling, not logic. Many of the general discussions I've seen in the different channels of the community often result in somebody saying "If you think X is not broken, youre dumb, sry" and "if you think X is good vs Koraidon then youre ass, sry", not to mention the several times I've heard the louder users randomly say "this metagame is shit because Koraidon hasn't been banned yet" or "Dealing with Koraidon always comes down to 50/50s, If you think otherwise you are bad", followed by no arguments to back down such inflamatory statements.

This ad-hominem rhetoric has gone far enough and I believe in the long run it will do more bad than good to Ubers. I don't say people aren't entitled to their opinion but, if statements such as these are laying the groundwork on which a community survey will probably propel a suspect and a potential ban, then the tier leaders, the council and ultimately we as a community are failing as a whole.

I agree that Koraidon the strongest pokemon in the tier, I agree that there are many situations in which 50/50s exist in Pokemon and I sympathize with people thinking it might be worth doing something about it. However, I do not agree with refusing to adapt to it and refusing to consider that maybe many of the situations where 50/50s exist can be avoided. And I also refuse to accept that this pokemon may potentially be gone out of sheer hate and spite from the loudest users.

Just my dragged 2 cents, kinda felt it needed to be said, we are about to start the first team tournament and if history is any guide, stuff like the one I mentioned will be recurring in the following weeks because of it.

First and foremost, I agree that we shouldnt hold a suspect right before UWC. There have been many points throughout various Ubers Metagames where things initially looked unmanageable and became so after the first proper team tour. I also agree that at times, rhetoric surrounding various aspects of Ubers (Calyrex last gen, the Bikes this) gets a bit too out of hand, and I hope that it does calm down a bit.

But Ubers has itself changed since a lot of the times you mentioned. If XY came out tomorrow for the first time, there's no chance that Xerneas would stay in the tier, for example. The culture and environment is simply very different nowadays and thats not a problem. Cultures and tiers change over time, and especially with AG existing, what was once the primary mentality of an Ubers player is now the mentality of people who do not play the tier. And, ultimately, any tiering purpose we have here is to serve the wishes and desires of our community. If Koraidon gets suspected and gets banned, it is because an overwhelming majority of players want to see Koraidon gone, and there is no point in ignoring the opinions of the vast majority of the players to keep true to the spirit of a previous version of Ubers. Its why, despite being adamant that Calyrex-S was a good thing for the meta, I voted to have a suspect on it in SS. We are here to listen to the community and try to act if necessary.

On this matter, Koraidon escaped a suspect in DLC1 because, in the time in which we were writing up the OP and sorting out what alt prefix to use for the Ubers Ladder, Gamefreak dropped an unexpectedly early release date for DLC2 (at least, for me. I was expecting it to be between christmas and new years). This would have given us about 2 weeks of a meta without Koraidon before DLC2 came out, and we as a council decided that it was not good practice to run a suspect that could drastically alter the tier so close to a new meta with potentially very relevant changes for Koraidon that would either mean it was banned unfairly, or that if it stayed and it needed another suspect later in the generation, it would look like we were simply trying again after failing to ban it the first time. Similarly, if we didnt know for a fact that Home was coming out, Miraidon definitely would have been party to a suspect a lot earlier in this generation. We are trying to keep a high bar for our suspect requirements this gen, because Ubers should indeed have a higher bar than most other tiers.

One of the things that was expressed to me and fc last gen was that we seemed to only ever pay attention to the qualified voter base for community surveys, that Calyrex-S in particular only ended up getting a suspect after the opinion of the qualified players shifted to roughly where it had been for the non-filtered playerbase the entire time. As a result, this gen, we have a trigger point on the suspects that, if it is reached, will automatically trigger a vote among the Ubers council as to whether to run a suspect or not. This threshold applies for both qualified and unfiltered results, such that we are not going to ignore players the way that people felt we were in SS. We do check every vote before counting them, to try to prevent people from rigging them. Congrats to Sweep, who someone has claimed to be on the last three surveys that we have struck off before tallying the votes.

My general thoughts on both Koraidon and the meta is that, at some point this gen, something is going to give. I havent personally enjoyed it since it came out, and I dont think that it is likely to improve much without some inherent change to the tier. Because of that belief, if Koraidon was suspected, I think I would vote ban, because I believe it to be an overall unhealthy influence on the tier, that poses vaster teambuilding restrictions than any other pokemon at the moment. In game it is slightly easier to handle, and I can respect not wanting to ban it for its in-game prowess, but for me it is a clear level above everything in the tier, and is at a level that I feel is too strong for it to be reasonably handlable in the long run of the tier. I also know that Fc would vote to keep Koraidon in the tier, we've talked about it recently and he does not believe it to be as big a problem as the rhetoric says it is, and to an extent I even agree with that. I dont think it is as centralising as Caly-S in SS, arguably Miraidon is even more centralising. But centralisation is not itself unhealthy. Look at Primal Groudon in ORAS. There's a reason my analogy from earlier was about Xerneas and XY.

But tiering isnt down to just one person, or the council, its down to the collective wants of us as a community. And if Koraidon does get suspected, it does not mean it will get banned. One thing I am trying to do is be more receptive to the idea that we can have suspects that 'fail'. There would be no point in running suspects if the only things ever on it were things like SV Calyrex and SS Zacian-Crowned, it would be effectively tiering by council where the suspect is a 2 week long known outcome. And, should the outcry against Koraidon continue for long enough, I think that the right thing to do for the community would be allow it to receive an actual test, where people can put their money where their reqs are, and decide on Koraidons fate. If a supermajority want it gone, keeping it would only be to our detriment.

Apologies for the word vomit, but the post I'm quoting from Edgar was a very good one and deserved a genuine official response. I largely agree with his reasoning and his logic, and the rhetoric around Koraidon definitely outweighs its in-battle prowess. Hopefully my post has made the tiering process for this generation a little bit clearer.

 

[Zest of Life]

+

Sets

Hippowdon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off

Wo-Chien @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Snarl
- Knock Off
- Ruination

Unironically, Hippowdon actually does a decent job at checking Scale Shot Koraidon. It can tank a +2 Flare Blitz with ease: +2 252 Atk Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 173-204 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, proceed to Tera Fairy on Scale Shot, and prove to be a nuisance for the broken lizard. I thought about what Edgar said earlier and I finally started understanding his viewpoint. Builders need to start experimenting and getting creative with their checks. Hippowdon fits on Fat Balances + Stall teams & is not a one-trick pony. It actually has serviceable physical bulk, can set up Rocks, and phaze threats easily.

Wo-Chien might seem like an odd choice, but it's actually really solid into CM Arceus + DD Groundceus. Snarl is used to defeat CM + Taunt users 1v1, while Wo-Chien is an excellent Knock Off abuser & can keep itself healthy thanks to Leech Seed. Ruination rounds of this set by preventing Wo-Chien from being completely passive. It's an unorthodox defensive threat that fits certain Fat Balance + Stall teams quite nicely.

Relevant Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-2040957728

 

[LouisIX]

+

Sets

Hippowdon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off

Wo-Chien @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Snarl
- Knock Off
- Ruination

Unironically, Hippowdon actually does a decent job at checking Scale Shot Koraidon. It can tank a +2 Flare Blitz with ease: +2 252 Atk Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 173-204 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, proceed to Tera Fairy on Scale Shot, and prove to be a nuisance for the broken lizard. I thought about what Edgar said earlier and I finally started understanding his viewpoint. Builders need to start experimenting and getting creative with their checks. Hippowdon fits on Fat Balances + Stall teams & is not a one-trick pony. It actually has serviceable physical bulk, can set up Rocks, and phaze threats easily.

Wo-Chien might seem like an odd choice, but it's actually really solid into CM Arceus + DD Groundceus. Snarl is used to defeat CM + Taunt users 1v1, while Wo-Chien is an excellent Knock Off abuser & can keep itself healthy thanks to Leech Seed. Ruination rounds of this set by preventing Wo-Chien from being completely passive. It's an unorthodox defensive threat that fits certain Fat Balance + Stall teams quite nicely.

Relevant Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-2040957728

Not to be bad ass "Disagree" spammer here but
+2 252+ Atk Tera Fire Koraidon Temper Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 355-418 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Temper flare Bp adjusted in the case you tera fairy to take scaleshot

To avoid any oneliner suspect here, I think you have spoken the problem of koraidon out there, that is, when we talking about "checking koraidon" we just simply imply we need to give our tera out - as we cannot afford the broken scaleshot 5hitting (let alone the heighten chance of crits) - just for koraidon. In common sense it is absolutely unfair but as this is ubers and the tolerance to "unfair" is relatively higher, lead us to further discussion to its necessity of suspecting it.

Personally, I don't think the current increasing acceptance of koraidon is a stable situation, given how good koraidon is as a safe net on almost everyteam with its scarf set, which probably is more preferable to the tour player, for example, so the problem of its unpredictability is kind of left behind rn. Still, its the first week of ubers tour after dlc2, we are still long way from concluding koraidon's brokenness ; Nonetheless, I am afraid that there will be similar situation with koraidon comparing to the SS calyrex-s - where the overall player base opinion differ from the experienced player base opinion.

Though i think if we just ban tera on bikes the world will be saved. Kek.

 

[YubelVT]

why is low ladder ubers having an obsession with stall shit. I play this tier to escape that garbage

 

[Stallion]

why is low ladder ubers having an obsession with stall shit. I play this tier to escape that garbage

I would hate for you to end up on high ladder and run into Fardin then.

 

[Edgar]

+

Sets

Hippowdon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off

Wo-Chien @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Snarl
- Knock Off
- Ruination

Unironically, Hippowdon actually does a decent job at checking Scale Shot Koraidon. It can tank a +2 Flare Blitz with ease: +2 252 Atk Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 173-204 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, proceed to Tera Fairy on Scale Shot, and prove to be a nuisance for the broken lizard. I thought about what Edgar said earlier and I finally started understanding his viewpoint. Builders need to start experimenting and getting creative with their checks. Hippowdon fits on Fat Balances + Stall teams & is not a one-trick pony. It actually has serviceable physical bulk, can set up Rocks, and phaze threats easily.

Wo-Chien might seem like an odd choice, but it's actually really solid into CM Arceus + DD Groundceus. Snarl is used to defeat CM + Taunt users 1v1, while Wo-Chien is an excellent Knock Off abuser & can keep itself healthy thanks to Leech Seed. Ruination rounds of this set by preventing Wo-Chien from being completely passive. It's an unorthodox defensive threat that fits certain Fat Balance + Stall teams quite nicely.

Relevant Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-2040957728

Hey! Yeah, my friends and I tested Hippowdon in a couple of teams as early as DLC1, although we used Rocky Helmet instead of boots since it achieves better chip with RH damage + Sand but, this sounds nice too. Kyogre + Hippowdon is something people can try as well, that duo does really well checking common cores in general.

Not to be bad ass "Disagree" spammer here but
+2 252+ Atk Tera Fire Koraidon Temper Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 355-418 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Temper flare Bp adjusted in the case you tera fairy to take scaleshot

To avoid any oneliner suspect here, I think you have spoken the problem of koraidon out there, that is, when we talking about "checking koraidon" we just simply imply we need to give our tera out - as we cannot afford the broken scaleshot 5hitting (let alone the heighten chance of crits) - just for koraidon. In common sense it is absolutely unfair but as this is ubers and the tolerance to "unfair" is relatively higher, lead us to further discussion to its necessity of suspecting it.

I don't know if what any of what you're saying is true. You definetely don't need Tera to check Koraidon, Zest of Life just provided an example that there exist pokemon that don't need it to do so (Hippowdon doesn't necessarily need to use its Tera vs Koraidon), and there are more examples like that out there. Temper Flare does not dismiss the fact that Hippowdon can handle Koraidon because A) you need Tera Fire to do that much damage (not even a OHKO) and B) you still stop Koraidon from getting that +1 speed with Scale Shot, meaning that it can be revenge killed by a faster mon. Can you explain how you mapped out that interaction? If Hippowdon switches in on the SD (at full cus boots) I don't think I'm using Tera Fire only to be hit by super effective STAB Earthquake. There is also the possibility that Hippowdon can Whirlwind and Koraidon is now weak to rocks having used Tera Fire to momentarily do more damage to Hippowdon. If using your Tera Fairy / Water was simply the only way to check Koraidon then every mon in the tier would use it, which is not the case. If Koraidon needs Tera Fire to beat some mons that is also not a problem in my eyes.

 

[YubelVT]

I would hate for you to end up on high ladder and run into Fardin then.

if I'm in high ladder I'd actually have the skill to contend with fardin and their stall. but right now I have skill issues and team issues so I don't. It's why I complain :3

 

[cyrtie]

why is low ladder ubers having an obsession with stall shit. I play this tier to escape that garbage

Sorry I knew I shouldn't have tested my Lugia teams on the ladder that much

 

[YubelVT]

Sorry I knew I shouldn't have tested my Lugia teams on the ladder that much

Not a single one of them was using lugia lmao

 

[KineSquared]

How is ubers feeling about the sleep changes to OU and lower tiers? Since AG doesn't have any restrictions to sleep, this leaves Ubers as the only core metagame with sleep clause in place, right? Are y'all okay being in that weird middle ground, or is it something coming up for discussion?

 

[YubelVT]

How is ubers feeling about the sleep changes to OU and lower tiers? Since AG doesn't have any restrictions to sleep, this leaves Ubers as the only core metagame with sleep clause in place, right? Are y'all okay being in that weird middle ground, or is it something coming up for discussion?

I mean how often does sleep get inflicted in ubers? Like that's partially rhetorical but I'm inexperienced and would enjoy hearing an actual answer lmao

 

[Zest of Life]

How is ubers feeling about the sleep changes to OU and lower tiers? Since AG doesn't have any restrictions to sleep, this leaves Ubers as the only core metagame with sleep clause in place, right? Are y'all okay being in that weird middle ground, or is it something coming up for discussion?

The ubiquity of and Hadron Engine means almost nothing is ever falling asleep in Ubers. The changes in OU & Lower Tiers hardly affect the current state of the Ubers metagame.

Not to be bad ass "Disagree" spammer here but
+2 252+ Atk Tera Fire Koraidon Temper Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 355-418 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Temper flare Bp adjusted in the case you tera fairy to take scaleshot

To avoid any oneliner suspect here, I think you have spoken the problem of koraidon out there, that is, when we talking about "checking koraidon" we just simply imply we need to give our tera out - as we cannot afford the broken scaleshot 5hitting (let alone the heighten chance of crits) - just for koraidon. In common sense it is absolutely unfair but as this is ubers and the tolerance to "unfair" is relatively higher, lead us to further discussion to its necessity of suspecting it.

Personally, I don't think the current increasing acceptance of koraidon is a stable situation, given how good koraidon is as a safe net on almost everyteam with its scarf set, which probably is more preferable to the tour player, for example, so the problem of its unpredictability is kind of left behind rn. Still, its the first week of ubers tour after dlc2, we are still long way from concluding koraidon's brokenness ; Nonetheless, I am afraid that there will be similar situation with koraidon comparing to the SS calyrex-s - where the overall player base opinion differ from the experienced player base opinion.

Though i think if we just ban tera on bikes the world will be saved. Kek.

has to blow through Tera to get rid of in this case. On its own, isn’t a reliable check. But as Edgar mentioned, you can pair it with things like and for better odds against Scale Shot

I do agree that often forces your opponent to blow their Tera early on in games, which can place them in a worse position later in the match since saving Tera can be a huge win condition. My post was suggesting that players need to start getting creative with their building and try to adapt to the most powerful threat in the tier. Underrated checks like ,, , , and can all deal with Scale Shot in conjunction with

Should it still prove to be too much after UWC, appropriate tiering action will be made.

 

[YubelVT]

as usual, everyone has forgotten our lord and savior ditto. Ditto continues to be the best thing to use against the setup menace this tier is plagued with. The juiciest target is still Zacian-C but scale shot Koraidon isn't safe either. Getting into a scarf war with other scarfers sucks but sometimes you gotta. Ditto is supremely underrated