Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - DLC 2 Edition

[Fc]

Thread Guidelines

- Discussion should only be focused around SV Ubers and its metagame. No national dex stuff.
- Discussion should only be focused around what is currently (or recently announced will be) available! Theorymon on the upcoming DLC are a no go in here until it arrives.
- Follow the rules, and keep things peaceful.
- Do not post one liners, try to make each post meaningful.
- Questions go here.
- Other generations discussion goes here.

Rest of the OP stolen from here, thank you WrathoftheLeopard for writing it.

Notable Returning Pokemon


Notable New Pokemon

How does Terapagos work?

- Terapagos has three formes. It is not item-locked, but it is stuck using the Stellar Tera type (which keeps the defensive profile of its Normal typing).
- Terapagos starts in its base forme with a mere 450 BST, but its ability, Tera Shift, causes it to transform into its Terastal forme upon switching in.
- Terapagos-Terastal has 600 BST and the ability Tera Shell, which makes all damaging moves used against it not very effective while it's at full HP.
- Terastallizing Terapagos changes it to its Stellar forme, which has 700 BST and the ability Teraform Zero. Teraform Zero nullifies all weather and terrain effects upon this forme change. Terapagos-Stellar also gets a 2x STAB boost on its Normal-type moves and a 1.2x STAB boost on all of its other moves for the rest of the battle.
- Terapagos has a signature move called Tera Starstorm, which is Normal-type and has 120 BP. When in its Stellar forme, Terapagos only receives a 1.2x STAB boost on this move but deals neutral damage to all non-Terastallized Pokemon and super effective damage to all Terastallized Pokemon with it.

Notable Missing Pokemon


Movepool Changes for Notable Pokemon

Existing Pokemon

Arceus: +Double-Edge, +Meteor Beam, +Psych Up, +Scorching Sands, +Supercell Slam
Eternatus: +Meteor Beam, +Sludge Wave
Giratina: +Curse, +Skitter Smack, +Breaking Swipe
Koraidon: +Double-Edge, +Dragon Cheer, +Meteor Beam, +Temper Flare
Kyogre: +Whirlpool
Landorus: +Scorching Sands, +Sludge Wave
Miraidon: +Dragon Cheer, +Supercell Slam
Ribombee: +Alluring Voice, +Psychic Noise, +Skitter Smack, +Psych Up
Skeledirge: +Alluring Voice, +Scorching Sands, +Temper Flare
Ting-Lu: +Double-Edge
Toxapex: +Muddy Wave, +Pain Split, +Sludge Wave

Returning Pokemon

Deoxys: +Expanding Force, +Future Sight, +Imprison, +Meteor Beam, +Pain Split, +Psychic Noise, +Psychic Terrain, +Stored Power, +Tera Blast, -Ally Switch, -Avalanche, -Body Slam, -Double-Edge, -Dynamic Punch, -Focus Punch, -Laser Focus, -Magic Coat, -Meteor Mash, -Power-Up Punch, -Psycho Shift, -Recycle, -Safeguard, -Seismic Toss, -Swagger, -Torment, -Toxic
Ho-Oh: +Body Slam, +Hurricane, +Tera Blast, -Bulldoze, -Burn Up, -Celebrate, -Curse, -Defog, -Laser Focus, -Mystical Fire, -Roar, -Roost, -Swagger, -Thunder Wave, -Toxic, -Zap Cannon
Kyurem: +Ice Fang, +Aerial Ace, +Avalanche, +Body Slam, +Tera Blast, +Roar, +Dragon Cheer, -Hone Claws, -Laser Focus, -Payback, -Roost, -Safeguard, -Swagger, -Toxic
Lunala: +Rain Dance, +Tera Blast, -Defog, -Magic Coat, -Psycho Cut, -Roar, -Roost, -Safeguard, -Sky Attack, -Swagger, -Thunder Wave, -Toxic, -Work Up
Necrozma: +Body Slam, +Sandstorm, +Sunny Day, +Tera Blast, -Ally Switch, -Autotomize, -Breaking Swipe, -Cosmic Power, -Magnet Rise, -Recycle, -Rock Polish, -Swagger, -Thunder Wave, -Toxic
Zekrom: +Body Slam, +Brick Break, +Double-Edge, +Dragon Cheer, +Focus Punch, +Roar, +Stealth Rock, +Sunny Day, +Supercell Slam, +Tera Blast, -Defog, -Hone Claws, -Laser Focus, -Magnet Rise, -Payback, -Rising Voltage, -Roost, -Safeguard, -Swagger, -Toxic

 

[cyrtie]

What makes Kyurem Black a notable pokemon but not Kyurem White? isnt Kyurem White better than it?

 

[YubelVT]

What makes Kyurem Black a notable pokemon but not Kyurem White? isnt Kyurem White better than it?

Kyurem Black is a setup mon that shits on the unaware pokemon and is neutral to caly-ice, at least I assume that's the reason

 

[Zest of Life]

Early DLC2 thoughts:

HO is pretty busted right now. I think Webs HO is not as good as it was in DLC1 due to the rise of Deo-S being the best lead HO could ever ask for. It's guaranteed to get at least 1 layer of any entry hazard up. I've been thinking about running Counter on Deo-S solely to deal a ton of damage to pesky Scarf Koraidon / Miraidon's that run U-Turn T1. Screens HO is really good. NDM + Caly-Ice are naturally bulky mons that benefit from it & I'm of the opinion that NDM is the best mon this DLC brought. Posting some sets I think are cool & have potential:

Double Dance WP Miraidon

Miraidon @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 176 HP / 240 Def / 76 SpA / 16 Spe OR 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Agility
- Dragon Pulse
- Parabolic Charge

This set is busted behind Screens. With the new Stellar Tera Type, Miraidon gets a boost comparable to that of Life Orb on all of its moves once per battle. The defense EVs help Miraidon comfortably set up in front of Zacian-C, as even a +3 Play Rough won't be able to OHKO it behind Reflect. Once Miraidon hits +3 and Terastallizes, it can easily 6-0 many builds. Try this set & feel free to optimize the EVs.

TR + WP NDM

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Fire / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 1 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Trick Room
- Photon Geyser / Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Sunsteel Strike

This set is him. NDM has insane bulk & when behind screens, is self-sufficient enough to reverse-sweep many common HO structures. I will admit that NDM suffers a bit from 4MSS, but I've found that Photon Geyser and EQ are good enough to hit everything you want (Stone Edge is only for Whirlwind Ho-Oh and Sunsteel Strike is for bulky Fairies like Fairyceus). Several players are running Bulky DD sets, which are fine, but unfortunately, miss out on outspeeding Zacian-C at +1.

Meteor Beam Eternatus

Eternatus @ Power Herb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Meteor Beam
- Dynamax Cannon
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast

Meteor Beam is such a great move for Etern to run. It's funny how many things drop to Tera Fire Flamethrower / Fire Blast at +1 under Sun. This is an offensive set that can be run on a variety of team structures.

Eternatus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Cosmic Power
- Meteor Beam
- Dragon Tail
- Recover

Inspired by Cosmic Power + Meteor Beam Etern from SS, this set is one of the best tools stall can use to phaze and serve as an excellent endgame win con.

Power Herb Terapagos

Terapagos @ Power Herb
Ability: Tera Shift
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Rock Polish
- Meteor Beam
- Tera Starstorm

For my life, I can't tell whether this is a good mon or not. It definitely has the potential to be an underrated threat on HO, but doesn't seem to have a niche outside that archetype. I'm running Power Herb + Meteor Beam mainly to smack Whirlwind Ho-Oh, which is this sets biggest defensive deterrent. Terapagos is a decent mon, but not something I would try building with consistently because it is a Tera hog.

 

[YubelVT]

I am this close to building a team around cb scizor because of how much I despise grimmsnarl. Yes that's playing 5v6 against basically all other teams but I despise grimmsnarl to the point where I'd be willing to do that

 

[Ezael_Stormblood]

y'know I am a huge believer in Reshiram, and I think her ability to handle steel and fairy types is useful, very underrated.
Her bulk is also notable for being able to eat a lot of attacks that would otherwise stop you from switching in.

Reshiram Set

Reshiram @ Assault Vest
Ability: Turboblaze
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Shadow Ball

Am I wrong? Maybe so, but I have seen this set work wonders, as the primals are no longer here to bully her

 

[YubelVT]

I am this close to building a team around cb scizor because of how much I despise grimmsnarl. Yes that's playing 5v6 against basically all other teams but I despise grimmsnarl to the point where I'd be willing to do that

Is there an actually good way to deal with grimmsnarl garbage. I'm so fucking tired of seeing people using 2 braincells to get to 1600 because they used grimmsnarl and make the only counterplay the surrender button. I'm so tired of seeing this shitty "taunt on 5 pokemon so the only defogger in the tier can't interrupt the youtube combo" stuff. I know I don't really have room to talk considering I play screens HO in gen 7 OU, but unlike these godawful tiers, there are defoggers in gen 7 OU that can fucking interrupt the stuff.

 

[katerina]

Is there an actually good way to deal with grimmsnarl garbage. I'm so fucking tired of seeing people using 2 braincells to get to 1600 because they used grimmsnarl and make the only counterplay the surrender button. I'm so tired of seeing this shitty "taunt on 5 pokemon so the only defogger in the tier can't interrupt the youtube combo" stuff. I know I don't really have room to talk considering I play screens HO in gen 7 OU, but unlike these godawful tiers, there are defoggers in gen 7 OU that can fucking interrupt the stuff.

zacian, mental herb toxic spikes toxapex, miraidon, good usage of tera, ekiller (Arceus-normal), taunt of your own. these are some ways of dealing with screens.

 

[Pigbeeef]

Kyurem Black is a setup mon that shits on the unaware pokemon and is neutral to caly-ice, at least I assume that's the reason

if i recall correctly, calyrex ice is mostly used under trick room and often runs cc, which totally smokes kyurem black.
if you ask me there is no way kyurem black is gonna be remotely viable with all of the scarf koraidon miraidon and flutter manes everywhere with its movepool and lack of priority. (correct me if i am wrong) plus kyurem is not a threat to a pokemon with 150 defense.

 

[katerina]

if i recall correctly, calyrex ice is mostly used under trick room and often runs cc, which totally smokes kyurem black.
if you ask me there is no way kyurem black is gonna be remotely viable with all of the scarf koraidon miraidon and flutter manes everywhere with its movepool and lack of priority. (correct me if i am wrong) plus kyurem is not a threat to a pokemon with 150 defense.

Calyrex-I doesn't run close combat. but yes kyurem-black will be very difficult to make work. however I believe maybe it can work with tera electric to setup in NDM's face. maybe. idk. even with that it sounds bad.

 

[Red Raven]

if i recall correctly, calyrex ice is mostly used under trick room and often runs cc, which totally smokes kyurem black.
if you ask me there is no way kyurem black is gonna be remotely viable with all of the scarf koraidon miraidon and flutter manes everywhere with its movepool and lack of priority. (correct me if i am wrong) plus kyurem is not a threat to a pokemon with 150 defense.

To add on to corvere's response, just what the hell is Kyurem supposed to do to Calyrex anyway? After rocks, Calyrex can often just one shot Kyurem. This thing is really strong. Loaded dice +1 scale shot doesn't come close to killing Caly and after the defense drop, glacial lance is an instant kill. Another problem Kyurem has is it won't have reliable dragon stab without loaded dice scale shot because dragon claw is really weak and outrage can be risky

Calyrex also rarely runs close combat. The only reason it would ever do that is to kill tera steel Giratina Origin, which isn't really too difficult to overwhelem

Calyrex-I doesn't run close combat. but yes kyurem-black will be very difficult to make work. however I believe maybe it can work with tera electric to setup in NDM's face. maybe. idk. even with that it sounds bad.

Personally, I would just use Zekrom over Kyurem. They still both destroy stall and while Zekrom is ground weak, sub tera flying can often fix its issues. Dragon dance with loaded dice scale shot can often let Zekrom get out of hand. You just need a good plan for extreme killer

 

[ComingUpCway84]

Any new move considerations for Smeargle, do we think? Or we sticking to the exact same SL loadout we've been using since SM?

 

[YubelVT]

if i recall correctly, calyrex ice is mostly used under trick room and often runs cc, which totally smokes kyurem black.
if you ask me there is no way kyurem black is gonna be remotely viable with all of the scarf koraidon miraidon and flutter manes everywhere with its movepool and lack of priority. (correct me if i am wrong) plus kyurem is not a threat to a pokemon with 150 defense.

Calyrex-Ice is usually the only trick room mon on a team because DTR teams suck ass. The standard moveset is TR SD Glacial Lance HHP and Glacial Lance coming off of caly's attack stat smokes Kyurem regardless. For context, it 2hko's arceus at +0

zacian, mental herb toxic spikes toxapex, miraidon, good usage of tera, ekiller (Arceus-normal), taunt of your own. these are some ways of dealing with screens.

Grimmsnarl screens teams are stupid as hell. You can just run taunt on all 6 pokemon and then you're behind screens permanently with a setup mon. Brick Break mons and a full health talonflame are the only things that both deal with it and can theoretically do a second thing. Mental Herb Giratina-O sucks ass, mh TS pex just seems like a dead slot, and miraidon, while good, can't singlehandedly deal with multiple things behind screens that will also probably be packing a fairy and/or ground type.

Any new move considerations for Smeargle, do we think? Or we sticking to the exact same SL loadout we've been using since SM?

Stop using smeargle because that is literally just free setup for scale shot koraidon unless you're willing to burn tera on literally turn 1

 

[katerina]

Brick Break mons and a full health talonflame are the only things that both deal with it and can theoretically do a second thing

brick break is suboptimal. talonflame is useless. Giratina-O is item locked; it can't run mental herb.
mental herb pex is not a "dead slot", that's brick break. miraidon beats grimmsnarl and can taunt the sweeper that comes after grimmsnarl dies and can tera fairy (most commonly) to deal with whatever comes. zacian-c is the most easy slot to deal with, every team has one or multiple ways of dealing with it be it via tera, a scarfer, a Rocky helmet pokemon, or a good natural check. it's not THAT hard.

 

[Zest of Life]

Calyrex-Ice is usually the only trick room mon on a team because DTR teams suck ass. The standard moveset is TR SD Glacial Lance HHP and Glacial Lance coming off of caly's attack stat smokes Kyurem regardless. For context, it 2hko's arceus at +0


Grimmsnarl screens teams are stupid as hell. You can just run taunt on all 6 pokemon and then you're behind screens permanently with a setup mon. Brick Break mons and a full health talonflame are the only things that both deal with it and can theoretically do a second thing. Mental Herb Giratina-O sucks ass, mh TS pex just seems like a dead slot, and miraidon, while good, can't singlehandedly deal with multiple things behind screens that will also probably be packing a fairy and/or ground type.


Stop using smeargle because that is literally just free setup for scale shot koraidon unless you're willing to burn tera on literally turn 1

I admit that Screens HO is probably the best style of HO right now, but it's far from unbeatable. While most team structures will have fast taunters, your best bet is to pressure Grimmsnarl from the get-go. Using a lead like Zacian-C or NDM with Steel coverage forces the screens user to choose between using Taunt or setting up Reflect. You can easily take advantage of this interaction. Also, you shouldn't be trying to remove screens via Defog. Giratina-O is forced to hold Griseous Core, so I'm assuming you meant to write Gira-A.

I think HO will be the dominant playstyle in the early stages of the metagame. I tried running a few balance structures with a sound defensive backbone of Ho-Oh/NDM/Glisc or Clod or Ting-Lu/Etern, but these cores are too overwhelmed by various offensive threats that abuse Tera. I do feel that the effect of Tera in DLC2 SV is eerily similar to the impact of Dynamax in DLC2 SS - they were barely manageable before, but now there are far too many offensive threats to make Tera a healthy presence in the meta. Maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but I've always felt Tera was the cohesive force that glued Ubers together. But now, with the prominence of HO and absurd Tera abusers like NDM, I'm starting to have doubts about how Tera will help the tier maintain and achieve stability. My experience on ladder has boiled down to the better HO structure will usually win the game.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Is terapagos even good here?

Also i'm guessing Lugia is still hot garbage here? If so can't wait for it to be bad in UUbers as well I guess...

 

[katerina]

Is terapagos even good here?

Also i'm guessing Lugia is still hot garbage here? If so can't wait for it to be bad in UUbers as well I guess...

i think terapagos has potential but we still haven't seen the "correct" set(s) for it to function properly. so right now it's not doing the greatest.
lugia sucks. it's bad.

 

[Taka]

Calyrex-Ice is usually the only trick room mon on a team because DTR teams suck ass. The standard moveset is TR SD Glacial Lance HHP and Glacial Lance coming off of caly's attack stat smokes Kyurem regardless. For context, it 2hko's arceus at +0


Grimmsnarl screens teams are stupid as hell. You can just run taunt on all 6 pokemon and then you're behind screens permanently with a setup mon. Brick Break mons and a full health talonflame are the only things that both deal with it and can theoretically do a second thing. Mental Herb Giratina-O sucks ass, mh TS pex just seems like a dead slot, and miraidon, while good, can't singlehandedly deal with multiple things behind screens that will also probably be packing a fairy and/or ground type.


Stop using smeargle because that is literally just free setup for scale shot koraidon unless you're willing to burn tera on literally turn 1

grimmsnarl teams are fine, they still face the same issues they did earlier which is not being enabling / momentum opening enough into fatter builds to be worth a 5v6.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

i think terapagos has potential but we still haven't seen the "correct" set(s) for it to function properly. so right now it's not doing the greatest.
lugia sucks. it's bad.

Yep, unsurprisingly. Like seriously someone at game freak really despises Lugia. Its getting closer to Zama-H/Pre Icicle spear Kyurem-B/Gen 6 Zygarde levels of bad every gen.

Edit: HOLY SHIT LUGIA GOT GUTTED EVEN HARDER THAN I THOUGHT! IT LOST TWAVE, TOXIC, DEFOG, AND ROOST. Its only way to make progress is trick/whirlwind or hoping it can set up, which well yeah is not good at all if that is what you have to rely on...

 

[Cuddly]

(Terapagos)
Was obviously too much for OU but looks fine here. Essentially acting like Zygarde-C at home. A plus side is that the base form has Tera Shell. Because type effectiveness doesn’t matter (besides Ghost), just about the only things that can OHKO Terapagos in its base for at full health are Tera Water Kyogre with Specs, Chi-yu/Charizard under the Sun, Tera Psychic Deoxys-A (which is a roll) Mold Breaker, and some other stuff I probably missed. All of which is also uninvested. Its 160/110/110 bulk is pretty solid for Ubers in terms of raw power in addition to removing Electric Terrain and Weather, making it even slightly more bulky. Stellar type also makes its Tera Starstorm an excellent answer to defensive Teras, as it’s guaranteed to be super effective.
Unfortunately it has major flaws.
1. It’s a Terahog. For it to even really be Ubers level, it needs to use up Tera. If you use Tera on another Pokemon before it Tera’s, you have now a subpar Pokemon that was only good for Tera Shell.
2. Without Tera Shell, such as taking slightest bit of chip or after Tera, you are dead meat against Koraidon whose fighting moves will do massive damage or outright OHKO you in most scenarios.
3. Teraform Zero only removes Terrain and Weather when first Terastallizing and switching in following times. It’s not Air Lock so your opponent can sinply just re-apply it, which is more likely in this tier than OU because Ubers Pokemon are bulkier.
4. Terapagos by Uber standards is pretty weak. With how it works, Normal moves get x2 STAB and everything else gets x1.2, including Tera Starstorm. Despite being Normal type before Tera, it changes type and loses the Adaptability STAB it normally gets. This isn’t too big of a deal however as it only has Hyper Beam, Tri-Attack, and Weather Ball for Normal Special moves and you can’t hit Ghost/Steel/Rock in the Tera form. Additionally, the majority of Terapagos’s special movepool is pretty weak in terms of BP. Only special moves with 100 BP or more are Hyper Beam, Tera Starstorm, Meteor Beam, Solar Beam, Thunder, Weather Ball with Weather up, and Stored Power after a few boosts.

More obvious sets are RP/CM/TS/Rest with Chesto Berry or replacing RP with Sleep Talk, and what ever EVs you’d want, probably more bulky as more things are a threat to you here.
However I think Choice Specs can work for Ubers here. Something like TS with Boltbeam and Hyper Beam being absolutely nuke could work as a better Porygon-Z. You’ll also see Teraform be used more often as set up variants tend to stay in.

 

[TheGreenistofVortexs]

What's Muddy Wave? Did you mean Muddy Water for Toxapex?

 

[Manaphy]

I've been testing quite a bit over the past day so I'm going to give my thoughts on the meta here:


Necrozma-Dusk Mane @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock / Dragon Dance
- Moonlight

Necrozma-Dusk Mane @ Occa Berry
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Steel / Psychic
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge / Photon Geyser

Definitely the most impactful drop of the DLC imo, NDM solidifies itself in the tier for its myriad of defensive and offensive roles it can play for your team. With no Xerneas around, NDM is free to go invest fully into its Defense stat, letting you take on some important threats like Zacian-C, Caly-I, Zekrom, and Kyu-B. It also has a ton of useful traits such as being immune to Poison which gives it utility against Eternatus and Gliscor, two threats which previously had very little which could comfortably switch into their Toxics. Stealth Rock is an obvious niche, but Dragon Dance is also quite nifty, letting you turn the aforementioned Etern and Gliscor into set-up fodder and winning you games vs. weakened teams. Knock Off is quite capable of being ran over Earthquake, however I think not having Earthquake jeopardizes the match-up too badly against Terastalized threats like Kyu-B and Zekrom. It's typing is a huge blessing as it finally gave this tier a much-needed strong defensive Steel-type, useful for taking on random Dragon-type attacks as well as Stored Power shenanigans. Even in its physically defensive state, NDM is a huge boon against Deoxys-A who can never threaten to OHKO you. It's one flaw as a physical wall is that it can't do anything against Koraidon, so I expect NDM + Fairyceus or NDM + Landorus to become very common defensive cores in this meta.

I also expect Offensive NDM sets to eventually become a HO staple, as it provides a key check to Zacian-C which is a huge threat to HO otherwise. Occa Berry is quite useful so that you do not need to use a Tera Fire to deal with an incoming Scarf Koraidon. Photon Geyser is a cool option to get past Skeledirge thanks to it bypassing Unaware.


Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs : 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Whirlwind
- Recover

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Flame Charge / Whirlwind
- Earthquake

Ho-Oh lost a ton of good utility moves in the generation transition, most notably Thunder Wave, Toxic, and Curse. Despite this, it still has enough to keep a very good niche as a Special Tank. Similar to NDM, with no Xerneas around, Ho-Oh doesn't need to run Special Defense EVs anymore, so there's nothing stopping you from investing fully into Defense. Defensive Ho-Oh is a good pivot into almost anything, but the most notable way it changes the meta is by making most CM Arceus forms struggle to force their way past it. Previous meta-defining threats like CM Fairyceus can no longer sweep nearly as easily, as they will never be able to hit both NDM and Ho-Oh with their coverage moves, and other ones like Groundceus will need to slot Power Gem in order to have a chance to sweep. It's also a pretty solid check to the newly released Deo-A as well as Offensive Ho-Oh sets.

Speaking of, Offensive Ho-Oh is actually pretty fun! Similar to SS, most teams rely on Eternatus to form a pseudo-check to Ho-Oh, so simply spamming Brave Bird and/or Earthquake can let Ho-Oh muscle its way past Etern. Flame Charge is now Ho-Oh's only boosting move, but it can actually be quite useful, letting you outspeed Etern after a single boost, opening up a sweeping opportunity.


Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 29 HP
Tera Type: Ghost
Hasty Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Low Kick
- Shadow Ball
- Rock Slide

The most optimal Deo-A set IMO (yes it's ripped from NatDex Ubers). Will be quite a threat on HO teams that forgo Deo-S and can successfully keep hazards off. Tera Ghost Shadow Ball is your best bet to try to muscle past NDM, and it comes with the benefit of dodging Ekiller's Extreme Speed, while Rock Slide will murk any Ho-Oh lacking max def.


Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Recover

Skarmory is an interesting case, I haven't quite found a team that it fits nicely on yet, but in theory it's totally not bad. Notably, it's another mon that is able to sit on Gliscor, which was really hard to do in DLC 1, and it hard walls almost all NDM and Ekiller sets, which is really not bad. I think its just hard to fit when you'd usually want to run Defensive NDM more often, which has an actual chance against Zekrom and Kyu-B.


Of the two, I think Zekrom is much better since Zekrom isn't Rocks weak and is much less reliant on Tera to sweep than Kyu-B is. Either way, both are really quite capable and checks for them need to be taken into account during teambuilding from now on.


Defensive sets have no way of working well outside of maybe hard stall in this meta. I think Offensive Meteor Beam Sets could work quite well on HO, especially since it gets Agility.

Not new mons but relevant to mention:

Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Judgement
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- Recover

Despite gaining two huge new checks in this meta, I think Fairyceus is still probably one of the top Arceus forms for the simple fact that its the best check to Koraidon around aside from Skeledirge. I think Thunder Wave is near-mandatory at this point, as it's Fairyceus's only option to cripple Ho-Oh while also being very good against NDM, Tera Fire Koraidon, and Zacian-C. Although you don't have much Speed investment (you really want the defense for Koraidon IMO), Taunt seems too good to pass up to prevent Clodsire, SpD Gliscor, etc. from setting up.


I was a huge Waterceus fan in DLC1 and I think it was perhaps the only Arceus form to get straight up better in DLC2, as both NDM and Ho-Oh give Waterceus new threats to check and set-up on. Calm Mind Waterceus is a great option as it it can check Offensive NDM, Offensive Ho-Oh, DD Groundceus, Caly-I, and Koraidon, while also being a solid wincon in its own right that can get past NDM and Ho-Oh without worry. It's still struggles a bit vs Miradon as Ice Beam or Wisp can only do so much, but it's extremely solid overall.


As corvere mentioned, I'm suspecting this DLC will turn up kinder for Ting-Lu than DLC 1 did. A lot of the new threats get countered or checked by Ting-Lu, notably DD NDM, Zekrom, and even Cosmic Power Meteor Beam Eternatus. NDM being around means that Ting-Lu doesn't have to worry quite as much about being hit with Toxic, and this DLC in general feels like it made Gliscor a bit worse off, easing that MU a bit is quite nice as Ting-Lu is still quite vulnerable to Spikes in this meta (we still have very limited removal options).


Still a pretty good mon but I think it has a harder time being fit on teams now because its inferior bulk gets put on display much more often with the increased amount of threats. NDM is definitely a huge factor to consider, as while Gliscor can spike up pretty freely against Rock versions, Earthquake doesn't actually do enough to threaten NDM, doing a measly 28% max, meaning Defensive DD sets can just use Gliscor as set-up fodder. Offensive NDM sets aren't 2HKOed by Earthquake either, which means NDM just straight up wins. Zekrom and Kyu-B both have their ways past Gliscor as well, and Skarmory is a new mon that can sit on Gliscor and play the Spikes game with it for free. I think it's still a fantastic pivot option as the combo of Earthquake, Toxic, and Spikes can just generate momentum like crazy, and thanks to Poison Heal it's a pretty solid switch-in to Ho-Oh, but overall it feels slightllllyy worse off to me than in DLC1.


I haven't tested it yet but I'm curious to see if it will end up better in this meta, as the addition of NDM and Ho-Oh means a lot of Arceus forms had to give up good coverage against Giratina-O, making it a lot more solid against Groundceus for example. NDM as a whole looks like a blessing for Gira-O, as it can Defog and Wisp on it without much worry, so maybe Gira-O will have a bit of an easier time Defogging this time around.

I didn't mention the turtle because unfortunately its hot garbage :(

 

[Rarycaris]

I'm not convinced Terapagos is good, necessarily (principally because of its poor matchup with the best mon in the tier), but Tri Attack seems worth considering on it? It hits harder than Tera Starstorm on anything that doesn't resist or negate it, and basically nothing that does resist it appreciates taking any of the 3 status effect it can apply. (Your other offensive option is a 300BP Hyper Beam, which isn't that practically useful, but does reliably OHKO most Koraidon sets.)

I don't think it makes sense to set up with Terapagos, but rather to use it like Zygarde-C (a mon it has a lot in common with), being difficult to kill, hitting everything for decent neutral damage and spreading annoying status effects. You could conceivably run a RestTalk set, or double down with moves like Toxic, Stealth Rock or Rapid Spin to take advantage of the usually free turn.

Low Kick also only has 40 base power against its basic form and 80 against its Stellar form.

 

[Pigbeeef]

I've been testing quite a bit over the past day so I'm going to give my thoughts on the meta here:


Necrozma-Dusk Mane @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock / Dragon Dance
- Moonlight

Necrozma-Dusk Mane @ Occa Berry
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Steel / Psychic
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge / Photon Geyser

Definitely the most impactful drop of the DLC imo, NDM solidifies itself in the tier for its myriad of defensive and offensive roles it can play for your team. With no Xerneas around, NDM is free to go invest fully into its Defense stat, letting you take on some important threats like Zacian-C, Caly-I, Zekrom, and Kyu-B. It also has a ton of useful traits such as being immune to Poison which gives it utility against Eternatus and Gliscor, two threats which previously had very little which could comfortably switch into their Toxics. Stealth Rock is an obvious niche, but Dragon Dance is also quite nifty, letting you turn the aforementioned Etern and Gliscor into set-up fodder and winning you games vs. weakened teams. Knock Off is quite capable of being ran over Earthquake, however I think not having Earthquake jeopardizes the match-up too badly against Terastalized threats like Kyu-B and Zekrom. It's typing is a huge blessing as it finally gave this tier a much-needed strong defensive Steel-type, useful for taking on random Dragon-type attacks as well as Stored Power shenanigans. Even in its physically defensive state, NDM is a huge boon against Deoxys-A who can never threaten to OHKO you. It's one flaw as a physical wall is that it can't do anything against Koraidon, so I expect NDM + Fairyceus or NDM + Landorus to become very common defensive cores in this meta.

I also expect Offensive NDM sets to eventually become a HO staple, as it provides a key check to Zacian-C which is a huge threat to HO otherwise. Occa Berry is quite useful so that you do not need to use a Tera Fire to deal with an incoming Scarf Koraidon. Photon Geyser is a cool option to get past Skeledirge thanks to it bypassing Unaware.


Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs : 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Whirlwind
- Recover

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Flame Charge / Whirlwind
- Earthquake

Ho-Oh lost a ton of good utility moves in the generation transition, most notably Thunder Wave, Toxic, and Curse. Despite this, it still has enough to keep a very good niche as a Special Tank. Similar to NDM, with no Xerneas around, Ho-Oh doesn't need to run Special Defense EVs anymore, so there's nothing stopping you from investing fully into Defense. Defensive Ho-Oh is a good pivot into almost anything, but the most notable way it changes the meta is by making most CM Arceus forms struggle to force their way past it. Previous meta-defining threats like CM Fairyceus can no longer sweep nearly as easily, as they will never be able to hit both NDM and Ho-Oh with their coverage moves, and other ones like Groundceus will need to slot Power Gem in order to have a chance to sweep. It's also a pretty solid check to the newly released Deo-A as well as Offensive Ho-Oh sets.

Speaking of, Offensive Ho-Oh is actually pretty fun! Similar to SS, most teams rely on Eternatus to form a pseudo-check to Ho-Oh, so simply spamming Brave Bird and/or Earthquake can let Ho-Oh muscle its way past Etern. Flame Charge is now Ho-Oh's only boosting move, but it can actually be quite useful, letting you outspeed Etern after a single boost, opening up a sweeping opportunity.


Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 29 HP
Tera Type: Ghost
Hasty Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Low Kick
- Shadow Ball
- Rock Slide

The most optimal Deo-A set IMO (yes it's ripped from NatDex Ubers). Will be quite a threat on HO teams that forgo Deo-S and can successfully keep hazards off. Tera Ghost Shadow Ball is your best bet to try to muscle past NDM, and it comes with the benefit of dodging Ekiller's Extreme Speed, while Rock Slide will murk any Ho-Oh lacking max def.


Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Recover

Skarmory is an interesting case, I haven't quite found a team that it fits nicely on yet, but in theory it's totally not bad. Notably, it's another mon that is able to sit on Gliscor, which was really hard to do in DLC 1, and it hard walls almost all NDM and Ekiller sets, which is really not bad. I think its just hard to fit when you'd usually want to run Defensive NDM more often, which has an actual chance against Zekrom and Kyu-B.


Of the two, I think Zekrom is much better since Zekrom isn't Rocks weak and is much less reliant on Tera to sweep than Kyu-B is. Either way, both are really quite capable and checks for them need to be taken into account during teambuilding from now on.


Defensive sets have no way of working well outside of maybe hard stall in this meta. I think Offensive Meteor Beam Sets could work quite well on HO, especially since it gets Agility.

Not new mons but relevant to mention:

Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Judgement
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- Recover

Despite gaining two huge new checks in this meta, I think Fairyceus is still probably one of the top Arceus forms for the simple fact that its the best check to Koraidon around aside from Skeledirge. I think Thunder Wave is near-mandatory at this point, as it's Fairyceus's only option to cripple Ho-Oh while also being very good against NDM, Tera Fire Koraidon, and Zacian-C. Although you don't have much Speed investment (you really want the defense for Koraidon IMO), Taunt seems too good to pass up to prevent Clodsire, SpD Gliscor, etc. from setting up.


I was a huge Waterceus fan in DLC1 and I think it was perhaps the only Arceus form to get straight up better in DLC2, as both NDM and Ho-Oh give Waterceus new threats to check and set-up on. Calm Mind Waterceus is a great option as it it can check Offensive NDM, Offensive Ho-Oh, DD Groundceus, Caly-I, and Koraidon, while also being a solid wincon in its own right that can get past NDM and Ho-Oh without worry. It's still struggles a bit vs Miradon as Ice Beam or Wisp can only do so much, but it's extremely solid overall.


As corvere mentioned, I'm suspecting this DLC will turn up kinder for Ting-Lu than DLC 1 did. A lot of the new threats get countered or checked by Ting-Lu, notably DD NDM, Zekrom, and even Cosmic Power Meteor Beam Eternatus. NDM being around means that Ting-Lu doesn't have to worry quite as much about being hit with Toxic, and this DLC in general feels like it made Gliscor a bit worse off, easing that MU a bit is quite nice as Ting-Lu is still quite vulnerable to Spikes in this meta (we still have very limited removal options).


Still a pretty good mon but I think it has a harder time being fit on teams now because its inferior bulk gets put on display much more often with the increased amount of threats. NDM is definitely a huge factor to consider, as while Gliscor can spike up pretty freely against Rock versions, Earthquake doesn't actually do enough to threaten NDM, doing a measly 28% max, meaning Defensive DD sets can just use Gliscor as set-up fodder. Offensive NDM sets aren't 2HKOed by Earthquake either, which means NDM just straight up wins. Zekrom and Kyu-B both have their ways past Gliscor as well, and Skarmory is a new mon that can sit on Gliscor and play the Spikes game with it for free. I think it's still a fantastic pivot option as the combo of Earthquake, Toxic, and Spikes can just generate momentum like crazy, and thanks to Poison Heal it's a pretty solid switch-in to Ho-Oh, but overall it feels slightllllyy worse off to me than in DLC1.


I haven't tested it yet but I'm curious to see if it will end up better in this meta, as the addition of NDM and Ho-Oh means a lot of Arceus forms had to give up good coverage against Giratina-O, making it a lot more solid against Groundceus for example. NDM as a whole looks like a blessing for Gira-O, as it can Defog and Wisp on it without much worry, so maybe Gira-O will have a bit of an easier time Defogging this time around.

I didn't mention the turtle because unfortunately its hot garbage :(

wait, since when did skarmory get recover?

 

[katerina]

wait, since when did skarmory get recover?

it's meant to be roost.