Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - DLC 2 Edition

Cuddly said:
I and other people say that Uber’s identity is important because one could argue that you can just make AG into new Ubers, Uber into new OU, UUbers into new UU, etc.
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I mean, in a sense, this is technically already the case?

as in AG is Ubers to Ubers and Ubers UU is UU to Ubers, which centres around Ubers being "Ubers OU" in the tiering sense.
But to make the argument that Ubers and OU should combine/merge at some point is ludicrous, because this is just unbalanced tiering and will end up where stuff gets banned from this merger, and creates Ubers again lol. Ubers will pretty much always exist in a form because GameFreak's impressive tendency to powercreep mons means something will always be too "strong" for standard play. Unless AG becomes standard play, in which case we clearly stopped caring about competitiveness along the way.

plus Ubers has an identity, and to say banning a mon that crosses your subjective line of what is or is not too "strong" for Ubers doesn't violate its identity, especially if over 80% of the playerbase thinks it IS too strong for Ubers. Because at the end of the day, the community decides where this hypothetical "line" is drawn at.

sorry if this doesn't make alot of sense i'm not very good at english
 
Celestiial said:
I dont understand arguments like this, if you want to just use broken pokemon you can play ag. I think Reje put it really well, Ubers is at a point right now where a lot of people aren't just wanting it to be a fun broken mons tier, we want a playable, enjoyable, and competitive metagame. I believe the notion that tiering decisions should be made on the merit of maintaining this nebulous idea of an "ubers identity" just isnt really responsible if we want a competative tier.

I kind of understand the point of pokemon being looked at not being on the same power level as previously banned pokemon, however that doesn't mean that we should ignore a pokemon that is making a metagame unhealthy and less enjoyed by over 80% of the voters. Miraidon was viewed to be an active negative impact on the tier, and action was taken because of that. If with time the same view is taken on Koraidon, action should be taken, and shouldn't be held back because it "redefines the ubers identity".
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Define a fun and balanced metagame, because if you ask me, Ubers will NEVER be as diverse as OU without banning most of the staples or something extreme like that, and only a handful of pokemon would actually see serious use in serious settings and be viable. OU generally has more than 30 mons that are actually listed as OU and be actually viable, with some lower tier mons being viable as well. However, Ubers is a different story, most mons listed as Ubers are just complete trash, with viable ones numbering significantly less than the 30 of Ou.


Ubers was never meant to be as diverse as OU (Not saying that OU is balanced or diverse on its own) and probably never will be, therefore we have different standards.

anyways define a fun and balanced metagame, btw I like koraidon on my teams and does not mind having to slap on checks to it all the time. (gen 8 Ubers does not exactly fit your definition of balance I think idk.)
 
Pigbeeef said:
Define a fun and balanced metagame, because if you ask me, Ubers will NEVER be as diverse as OU without banning most of the staples or something extreme like that, and only a handful of pokemon would actually see serious use in serious settings and be viable. OU generally has more than 30 mons that are actually listed as OU and be actually viable, with some lower tier mons being viable as well. However, Ubers is a different story, most mons listed as Ubers are just complete trash, with viable ones numbering significantly less than the 30 of Ou.


Ubers was never meant to be as diverse as OU (Not saying that OU is balanced or diverse on its own) and probably never will be, therefore we have different standards.

anyways define a fun and balanced metagame, btw I like koraidon on my teams and does not mind having to slap on checks to it all the time. (gen 8 Ubers does not exactly fit your definition of balance I think idk.)
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Ultimately I think a fun and balanced metagame is something that gets defined by the playerbase, when people feel that there isn't any pokemon/styles that are particularily overwhelming with the tier having enough Diversity (either in pokemon or in sets) to make games enjoyable. I think a lot of people would agree with me on this

However i see no point in bringing diversity into this argument, thats not something i mentioned at all and is irrelevant to the rest of the point you've made here, Pokemon Diveristy is not a required part of a playerbase feeling they have achieved a "balanced and fun tier" (again, diversity can come in the form of sets. Ex. Dpp Dialga, SS Yveltal, etc). Because ubers is naturally going to be more limited monswise then OU, comparing those two in this case doesnt really do much. It just looks like you are trying to somehow twist what i said into "Ubers can never be as balanced/fun as OU because it doesn't have as many pokemon", when all i was saying is that "Ubers will always be different from OU because they have different pokemon", with my ultimate point being that removing Koraidon does not make SV Ubers any less then previous Ubers tiers. In no way did I claim that either had to be diverse to be considered "good", just that Ubers doesn't mandate *not* banning things because they make the meta unenjoyable for the playerbase at large.

If you think I've misinterpreted your post you are free to respond to this and tell me if there is any question you'd like me to answer more specifically, I'm happy to ramble lol
 
Celestiial said:
Ultimately I think a fun and balanced metagame is something that gets defined by the playerbase, when people feel that there isn't any pokemon/styles that are particularily overwhelming with the tier having enough Diversity (either in pokemon or in sets) to make games enjoyable. I think a lot of people would agree with me on this

However i see no point in bringing diversity into this argument, thats not something i mentioned at all and is irrelevant to the rest of the point you've made here, Pokemon Diveristy is not a required part of a playerbase feeling they have achieved a "balanced and fun tier" (again, diversity can come in the form of sets. Ex. Dpp Dialga, SS Yveltal, etc). Because ubers is naturally going to be more limited monswise then OU, comparing those two in this case doesnt really do much. It just looks like you are trying to somehow twist what i said into "Ubers can never be as balanced/fun as OU because it doesn't have as many pokemon", when all i was saying is that "Ubers will always be different from OU because they have different pokemon", with my ultimate point being that removing Koraidon does not make SV Ubers any less then previous Ubers tiers. In no way did I claim that either had to be diverse to be considered "good", just that Ubers doesn't mandate *not* banning things because they make the meta unenjoyable for the playerbase at large.

If you think I've misinterpreted your post you are free to respond to this and tell me if there is any question you'd like me to answer more specifically, I'm happy to ramble lol
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uhhhh I dont blame you, Im not great at wording my own posts at all, I think it was me who misunderstood, tbf.

but tldr, maybe it is true that koraidon is not fun for most, but Ubers have a higher standard for banning.

I assume you want them to just ban it since the community does not like ig, then again I might be misinterpeting again.
 
Pigbeeef said:
uhhhh I dont blame you, Im not great at wording my own posts at all, I think it was me who misunderstood, tbf.

but tldr, maybe it is true that koraidon is not fun for most, but Ubers have a higher standard for banning.

I assume you want them to just ban it since the community does not like ig, then again I might be misinterpeting again.
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As ive said in the suspect thread a few times I really am not the biggest fan of this idea that ubers has to have a higher standard for banning, and am admittedly annoyed when people differ to it without actually giving an argument for why something should be banned/doesnt but thats a different story

And in terms of a Koraidon ban, probably too early to tell if it should be banned or not. Any pro ban arguments I've made in this forum are just expressions that *if* a Koraidon suspect happens and it is banned that is not a failure of the ubers tier to be truly ubers, if the meta settles down and the community doesn't like Koraidon I'd be down for a suspect to see what happens. My opinion on Koraidon as it stands is that it feels very overwhelming still, and I think it is really good at muscling through its own checks to enable its teammates/itself, but I'm unsure of if that is enough to warrant a suspect *especially* given how long we've had this meta for.
 
BolTingBlazie said:
So Miraidon is gone, I wonder if Koraidon may join it in AG hell soon?

Koraidon while not nearly as oppressive as Miraidon is still busted so we might see it go.
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Broken or not, I think it's unlikely that Koraidon is getting over 66% in a vote.

Anyway, Miraidon's ban should make it easier to account for Koraidon since stuff like Ho-oh and bulky Kyogre becomes much better, while slower teams are no longer forced to choose between Arc fairy and spdef Arc ground. You can also more easily fit Lando-T which soft checks Koraidon too. It's also not like Koraidon can start running Adamant either cuz then it gets speed crept by Jolly Koraidon.
 
I'm not too well-versed in SV Ubers, so forgive me if my observation is unfounded. With Miraidon out of the tier, I can see PhysDef Rest Kyogre finally being a set now as a somewhat-consistent Koraidon check, especially for Choiced sets. It might still struggle vs SD Scale Shot, but if you have Tera, Tera Fairy gives you Scale-immunity and a resistance to Low Kick, while the Rain weakens Flare Blitz.

Perhaps something like this?

:kyogre:
Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Sleep Talk / Roar / Calm Mind
 
Gonna drop some early meta thoughts here. These will include mons whose changes I think are most significant to the new meta.

:koraidon: - Very clearly number one mon, does what it has been doing since DLC1, just a bit worse now because with Mirai gone we have more freedom to check it in the builder. Currently leaning towards it being broken but I'm not opposed to it staying in the tier for now.

:eternatus: - By far the biggest winner of Mirai gone IMO, the tier isn't trying to be as specially bulky as it was before HO took over. As a result, Ting fell off hard, so it's harder to check offensive sets. Kyogre rising gives Etern greater defensive use as well. Toxic is also super hard to switch into when backed by Dynamax Cannon and can even mess with CM Arcs that try to Tera into a Toxic immune with Dragon Tail. The one thing that Etern loses is the value of Toxic Spikes and Tspike absorption. In general Tspikes feel super mid since this mon improved so much and is quite common, so running Tspikes feels like a waste into many MUs.

:kyogre: - Mixed bag in my book. Kyogre definitely got net better, but it did not transition into this meta without new issues. For one, Mirai might have been a nuisance for Kyogre to face, but this is not without the fact that Mirai was by far Kyogre's favorite partner, and not having Mirai around anymore to give it easy opportunities to maul everything in sight is definitely not the best. The other thing is that yes, this mon did rise, but so did Etern. Etern is not a flawless solution to Kyogre of course, but it is still a nuisance with its typing, bulk, and access to moves that annoy Kyogre like Toxic and Recover. It's Kyogre so of course it got better, but I feel it's definitely needed to think about its moves more.

:ho-oh: - Very much better, Mirai being gone is huge for offensive and defensive sets alike. By far one of the biggest limiting factors to Sub Ho-Oh was Miraidon resisting both STABs and threatening to OHKO in return, but now it doesn't need to worry about that. Plus the freedom to checking Korai afforded to us with Mirai being gone means there's less opportunity cost to this set. And then defensive sets... brah do I even need to say why this got better without Mirai around

:landorus-therian: - Not much to say, one less mon that immediately threatens it plus the ability to stave off Korai and Zacian short-term is incredible for so many teams.

:necrozma-dusk-mane: - Got better now that the entire tier isn't HO hell and Etern's rise in viability, not much to say.

:lunala: - This guy is gas. As mentioned earlier, the tier got less specially bulky AND Ting usage fell off a cliff. And that means there's basically nothing that wants to take Moongeist. Also Shadow Shield allows it to soft check a myriad of attackers. Less risk of getting overwhelmed + more spammable STAB = funny.

:arceus-electric: - Even before Mirai left I had my eyes on this thing. Now, without Mirai around to totally outclass it, Eleceus is lowkey also gas. Of course it's a Calm Minder but it actually has some diversity with how it can run that set. It can be either immediately fast and strong with a Modest Nature and an offensive Tera like Stellar to just drop stuff after one Calm Mind, or perhaps it can go bulky, acting as a decent check to all of Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Zacian, and NDM. Also the common Grounds in this meta absolutely do not wanna come anywhere near Ice Beam. Fast Eleceus IMO is only good on webs or screens as those are the only viable ways to make up for its shortcomings, those being lackluster bulk and propensity for getting outsped by mons like Korai Zac Etern. Bulky CM is just a thought atm that I haven't tested, but I'm excited to test it fs.

:ting-lu: - Certainly not unviable by any means, but this mon fell off HARD. Well actually tbh I think it got better because at the end of the Mirai meta I didn't rate it at all but now I do. Anyways. Ting wasn't a very good Miraidon check, but now that it's gone, it might be able to act as a sturdier special check to mons like Etern, Lunala, or Eleceus. The overall slower pace of the tier makes it easier to use, but I will say it's not very easy to fit because of its whole issue with Korai and Zacian, as well as its passivity compared to superstar mons like Lando or Ho-Oh.


Some closing thoughts:
Going from the HO hell that was the end of the Miraidon meta to this? Feels like we've stepped into a new era in the best way possible. It's definitely still too early to tell how things will go from here on but I'm personally enjoying this new meta a lot atm. There's a lot of genuine potential for this tier now that simply didn't exist when Miraidon was around, and I'm super excited to see where we might go from here.
 
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Now that miraidon has been ejected from the tier, my boy waterceus can finally have the glory that it deserves.

https://pokepast.es/4075e94fa9530e8c

the team over here is something that I would not even dream of before the ban, but now that it has been banned... I was getting farmed by arc electric....

anyways, I am a firm believer in :arceus-water: in metagames without :miraidon: or similarly dominant things that clap it, and so far the ladder has been infested with NDM and ice rider shenanigans, along with Zac, koraidon and other HO stuff, so I felt like idef + wisp + water judgment was a great way to blanket check the entire metagame of physical attackers, so thats that.

although miraidon being gone is a huge bonus for waterceus, it being gone also means increased eternatus and eleceus usage, which means there are new checks to this thing, So I don't see it rising up to higher than A rank now that I think about it...

and f game freak for removing twave from NDM, now I don't have a status move to threaten Zac and the HO hell ladder.

oh, by the way, although I have not explored it much, I believe arc electric has lots of potential with most of the spdef grounds falling off hard and many teams (like this one) having little to no defensive counterplay to this thing, maybe this team just sucks idk. :arceus-electric:
 
I've been back into playing after Miraidon's ban, and overall I have been happy with the state of the tier currently. I haven't been paying much attention to SCL, but just from my own testing, it seems that while offense overall is still likely to stay the dominant playstyle, HO feels not quite as overtly dominant, while balance builds have much more of a chance to compete. I'll leave some of my impressions on specific mons below:

:eternatus: - I think the biggest surprise to me was just how well Eternatus fit into the role of what Miraidon did for a lot of teams. Offensive Eternatus was always a threat, but with Miraidon gone, hyper offense teams needed a new special attacker (you really don't wanna get stonewalled by Dozo or Skele or Iron Defense Arcs, etc) and Eternatus fits the bill quite well. In the current meta, it definitely feeds off of the building of many teams, which lack a strong special wall outside of SpD Eternatus or Ho-Oh, both of which get threatened by Offensive Eternatus. It has a ton of variety as well, as Meteor Beam + Agility sets can be used, to Life Orb sets with Sludge Bomb, and I've even heard of Boots sets with Recover. Even without the threat of Meteor Beam, Ho-Oh is not exactly a huge threat to Eternatus, so you can gain a lot of momentum on it with smart plays. Thunder Wave Ogre is a decent option against it for offensive teams. Special Defensive Eternatus also seems much more prominent for balance builds, as it's much easier to fit now, and it comes with its trademark ability to wall like 70% of mons while only being a pseudo-check to the mon it's supposed to beat, Kyogre. Still, it's one of the few good options for Ogre and it usually does a good enough of a job in tandem with other mons like Koraidon and Arceus-Water. The threat of Toxic as always helps to keep other special attackers at bay like CM Arceus formes and Lunala, and Eternatus with boots can be quite nice against Webs thanks to its good Speed.

:arceus-fairy: :arceus-water: - Imo these two mons are some of the defining features of bulky offense/balance builds. While other Arceus formes certainly have a lot to offer, I think they are very hard to build with in general as not having one of these Arceus formes really limits your ability to deal with Koraidon. Arceus-Fairy remains the best mon by itself to deal with Scale Shot Koraidon, and while it's often paired with Kyogre for maximum safety, I don't think either mon really needs the other. Meanwhile, Arceus-Water really requires the use of some Fairy-type teammate like Zacian-C or Flutter Mane imo, as giving Koraidon free reign to spam Scale Shot is pretty bad. The more you have to force Koraidon to guess, the more safety you'll have in dealing with it. That being said, I really like Arceus-Water when I can fit it, as it provides very nice use against a myriad of threats like Offensive NDM, Arceus-Ground, and Caly-I. Both formes can spam Thunder Wave really well, and Arceus-Fairy has some added utility in being a good Rocks setter (though don't sleep on Calm Mind sets, they can really clean up weakened teams). Without these two mons I think you're really always going to have to rely on some more wacky shit like Skeledirge, Scream Tail, Dozo, etc. to deal with Koraidon, or have a ton of offensive pressure (thereby taking you out of the BO or balance category).

:necrozma-dusk mane: - Remains a very solid mon which has a bit of an easier time sweeping now without another 135 Speed monster to deal with. Maybe a hot take (or not) but physically defensive sets feel pretttyyyyyyyyyy bad against Zacian-C, +3 BB into CC will take you out, and if you aren't rocking Earthquake, then Sunsteel doesn't even do that much damage. I'm curious to see if expanding into other item options could help this match-up out a bit, since NDM resists rocks and Spikes seems less common. I'd also like to throw out there that Specially Defensive NDM is quite strong and underrated, it makes for a good check against Offensive Eternatus and other special attackers, and it can even have an easier time breaking through teams, thanks to Photon/Knock being a viable route. The extra special bulk really lets you eat those Judgments from support Arceus formes, with Tera Fire NDM not even being 2HKO'd by Arceus-Water's Judgment. Overall, it's very hard to make a balance currently without NDM, even taking out its ability to check key threats, it's one of the few mons in the tier that can sit on Eternatus and Gliscor without fear of major damage or Toxic.

:landorus-therian: - Don't have much to say on this mon, but it feels very good to use and it's probably the best rocks setter in the tier. It's really solid against Zacian-C and gives you some wiggle room against Koraidon and other physical threats.

:ho-oh: - Definitely enjoys not having Miraidon around to eat its STAB attacks. I think defensive sets are being spammed a bit too much now. If you think about it, Ho-Oh doesn't actually check that many mons; Koraidon's Scale Shot powers through it, Zacian-C bops it with Wild Charge, Eternatus can sit on it or threaten it with Meteor Beam, Arceus-Ground smacks it with Stone Edge, Necrozma-DM can play around it with Tera Fire and/or Knock Off shenanigans, etc etc. Now, Regenerator and Tera definitely give you a lot of flexibility, but I think solid, concrete answers to threats should come first. One of its biggest points currently is that its Whirlwind is a very good out to a lot of boosting mons like CM Arceus formes. Besides that, Offensive sets are pretty good, and can spam Tera Flying Brave Bird with impunity against a lot of teams, though I wish some of you guys would stop putting in on HO, it's not a HO mon.....

:arceus-ground: - You really don't want to sleep on this thing just because Mirai is gone, it's still one of the most threatening mons in the tier with its Dragon Dance and CM sets. Miraidon being gone in particular frees up the EVs on CM sets, letting you put more Special Attack EVs to potentially OHKO Ho-Oh at +1, or put more EVs into Defense for some utility against Koraidon, Zacian-C and NDM. It's even a fairly solid option against the aforementioned Offensive Eternatus sets. It's main flaw IMO is simply that it's not Arceus-Fairy or Water, but if you can build around that it's very solid imo.

:giratina-origin: - This thing is fucking AWESOME holy shit. Poltergeist by itself gives it a ton of offensive power as Dark-types like Ting-Lu became rarer with Miraidon gone, and Shadow Sneak has a ton of utility. Defog as an option is also very strong, especially against HO and Spike Stacking teams. Now you're always going to miss out on something; without status you're pretty much a sitting duck against support Arceus formes, no Dragon Tail makes you useless against Ekiller, and no Stone Edge makes Ho-Oh pretty annoying to deal with. With these downsides in mind, these things are pretty easy to deal with if you have good teambuilding. In terms of defensive utility, it's one of the best options against Arceus-Ground and it gives some nice use against Kyogre as well. Gira-O is also one of the best users of tera in the entire tier imo, Tera Ghost makes Polter + Shadow Sneak an insanely threatening combo while Tera Steel makes Gira-O incredibly tanky and hard to deal with.

:ting-lu: - I thought that this mon might not be viable anymore with Mirai gone, but I (and a ton of other people) forgot that Ting-Lu being around was one of the best ways that Offensive Eternatus and other special attackers like Lunala were being kept in-check. Ting-Lu's typing, bulk, and Whirlwind also makes it a great option to deal with those "Demon" Arceus sets and other boost-spamming mons. It still has the same problems with letting Koraidon and Gliscor in, but its defensive utility is definitely an asset that you can't ignore for balance teams that want to be safe against the maximum number of threats possible. Also, lest we forget, Ting-Lu is one of the best ways to set Spikes in the tier. If anything, with Miraidon gone, it actually feels better to use, as you don't have to be quite so conservative with its HP and are free to use it more loosely.

:gliscor: - I think this mon is still decent but man loading this mon into HO just feels really bad nowadays. Eternatus being so common makes Toxic Spikes not that big of a threat, so I think Spikes is the only real way to go now. Special Defensive sets are probably the best right now, as sitting on support Arceus forms and Defensive Eternatus feels quite good, but against hyper offense teams you really lack a lot of utility.

:arceus-electric: - Maybe I am underestimating it but I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish, as I said before without Arc-Fairy or Arc-Water your options against Koraidon are definitely limited. It resisting Brave Bird and Sunsteel Strike is definitely quite cool, and having STAB Electric moves to hit Ho-Oh with is nice, but idk I don't really see it otherwise, Eternatus kinda just sits on it.
 
Did some youtuber make a video on ubers webs because there's a legitimate infestation of webs players on ladder. Like it's legitimately to the level of grimmsnarl screens at the beginning of DLC2 and frankly I'm kind of fucking tired of it
 
YubelVT said:
Did some youtuber make a video on ubers webs because there's a legitimate infestation of webs players on ladder. Like it's legitimately to the level of grimmsnarl screens at the beginning of DLC2 and frankly I'm kind of fucking tired of it
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Webs has been a legit playstyle seeing significant tour usage since DLC 1, and since its a style of HO expect lots of it on the ladder.


if you hate it so much try a trickroom team, they clap webs hard but might struggle vs certain MUs.
 
Pigbeeef said:
Webs has been a legit playstyle seeing significant tour usage since DLC 1, and since its a style of HO expect lots of it on the ladder.


if you hate it so much try a trickroom team, they clap webs hard but might struggle vs certain MUs.
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Dedicated Trickroom is one of the top 5 (non-stall team) things I hate in this metagame, and I'm on the Necrozma Dawn Wings train anyway so webs aren't too much of an issue if I play correctly.
 
I like Ubers right now and think it's in a relatively balanced place, I'll post specific metagame thoughts after SCL maybe. I feel like the tier has stabilised a fair amount, so I think it's finally time to talk about minimizing the banlist, rather than expanding it. I've brought up a lot of these in the past, but I think it was mostly taken jokingly and there were bigger fish to fry so it's understandable why we haven't addressed these pieces yet.

1) King's Rock
There's absolutely no argument to be made that has King's Rock be broken. No multihitter could viably run this and disrupt Ubers in an unfair or unbalanced way. You have Maushold who is too slow, frail and weak for Ubers, Cloyster who's also too slow, weak and prefer HDB if anyone ever used it, and Koraidon who should definitely use Loaded Dice or LO instead for a setup set (and they generate enough free turns via Tera or Substitute anyway). This was quickbanned very reactionarily at the start of Gen 9 on literally Day 1 (which is very un-Ubers tiering like) and we've had two sets of DLC and heaps of metagame progression. We don't have to be scared of Maushold anymore... Tera Ghost is one of the best teras too.

2) Moody (Smeargle, Scovillain)
This will be slightly more contentious since this actually had a suspect test, but I think Moody should be unbanned by council vote. Again I don't think any argument can be made that Scovillain with Moody is too powerful for the Ubers meta. Two DLCs have happened and the power level is so much higher with more long lasting pokemon that easily outspeed and OHKO/Phaze it (Ho-Oh, Eternatus), or at least make things difficult for it (Kyogre, Ting Lu, Ice Rider, Ekiller). In a much higher power level tier, it literally can't get the turns to attempt to sweep, so it shouldn't stay banned.

The more interesting and potentially broken one is Sleep+Power Trip Smeargle on Webs, but between phazers, the current offensive nature of ubers (everything is fast and can OHKO a Leftovers Smeargle), Scale Shot Koraidon and Sleep Clause I'm not too concerned about this either.

Neither of these would impact the Ubers tier, but if we actually want to follow Ubers Tiering policy we should be striving to minimize bans, and continually evaluating the banlist, and I think these can safely be visited.
 
With Mirai gone I wanted to try building again with my favorite mon, this thing is still Not Great tbh but I had to try and make it work.

:sv/Chansey:
Buu (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock

I got inspired after reading these OU RMTs. Since you can't run Timbs this thing is just unusable on stall, especially in a tier like Ubers. However it does have a small niche as a special wall on offense teams. Unlike Ting-Lu, it has wave and reliable recovery, so it ends up being less of an overall momentum sink. You can actually stay in on a surprising amount of physical threats and cripple them or just click rocks, for example:

+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 578-680 (82.2 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (You also have a 40% chance to live after rocks, which is nice)

252+ Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-462 (55.4 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- guaranteed 2HKO (CC >> Low Kick on Korai, but according to stats ~60% of Korai still run this. Adamant LK has a 70% chance to KO lu for reference, and it guaranteed dies to LOrb Jolly.)

I rarely ended up using tera on him, so I just used dark for that annoying Stored Power NDM set.

Without Miraidon in the tier a lot of teams are using Eternatus which doesn't run taunt. Not only that, less teams will run Treads/Groundceus, so TWave doesn't blank as often as it used to. It's definitely still got serious issues but is far better than it was pre-ban, so I want to encourage people to play with it and hopefully we can get it on the VR rating.
 
Icemaster said:
I like Ubers right now and think it's in a relatively balanced place, I'll post specific metagame thoughts after SCL maybe. I feel like the tier has stabilised a fair amount, so I think it's finally time to talk about minimizing the banlist, rather than expanding it. I've brought up a lot of these in the past, but I think it was mostly taken jokingly and there were bigger fish to fry so it's understandable why we haven't addressed these pieces yet.

1) King's Rock
There's absolutely no argument to be made that has King's Rock be broken. No multihitter could viably run this and disrupt Ubers in an unfair or unbalanced way. You have Maushold who is too slow, frail and weak for Ubers, Cloyster who's also too slow, weak and prefer HDB if anyone ever used it, and Koraidon who should definitely use Loaded Dice or LO instead for a setup set (and they generate enough free turns via Tera or Substitute anyway). This was quickbanned very reactionarily at the start of Gen 9 on literally Day 1 (which is very un-Ubers tiering like) and we've had two sets of DLC and heaps of metagame progression. We don't have to be scared of Maushold anymore... Tera Ghost is one of the best teras too.

2) Moody (Smeargle, Scovillain)
This will be slightly more contentious since this actually had a suspect test, but I think Moody should be unbanned by council vote. Again I don't think any argument can be made that Scovillain with Moody is too powerful for the Ubers meta. Two DLCs have happened and the power level is so much higher with more long lasting pokemon that easily outspeed and OHKO/Phaze it (Ho-Oh, Eternatus), or at least make things difficult for it (Kyogre, Ting Lu, Ice Rider, Ekiller). In a much higher power level tier, it literally can't get the turns to attempt to sweep, so it shouldn't stay banned.

The more interesting and potentially broken one is Sleep+Power Trip Smeargle on Webs, but between phazers, the current offensive nature of ubers (everything is fast and can OHKO a Leftovers Smeargle), Scale Shot Koraidon and Sleep Clause I'm not too concerned about this either.

Neither of these would impact the Ubers tier, but if we actually want to follow Ubers Tiering policy we should be striving to minimize bans, and continually evaluating the banlist, and I think these can safely be visited.
Click to expand...
Honestly the only thing besides moody that should probably maybe get looked into is Koraidon maybe, but that's all that probably needs to be looked into.

Moody is cheese regardless and probably shouldn't ever be allowed, Koraidon is still Koraidon and probably the only thing I would call oppressive in the tier.
 
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Icemaster said:
Neither of these would impact the Ubers tier, but if we actually want to follow Ubers Tiering policy we should be striving to minimize bans, and continually evaluating the banlist, and I think these can safely be visited.
Click to expand...

To be clear, nothing about Ubers Tiering Policy states that Ubers should be a format with the least bans possible, but specifically the least Pokemon bans as possible.

Sources:
chaos

Post in thread 'Redefining Ubers for the next generation - A Proposal'

Quick summary of my thoughts from the CL discord.

The goal of the tiering system is: for every Pokemon (within reason), ensure there exists a fun & competitive format to use it in. Being rigid & purist about Ubers has the potential of violating the fun part, and there is no point to having a format that nobody wants to play. But trying to achieve this with Pokemon bans like OU violates the "for every Pokemon" part, as Ubers is the "format of last resort" (not incl. AG, which we make zero promises about being fun OR competitive). Plus, since every Pokemon in Ubers is overcentralizing by...
  • Like
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/formats/uber/
 
mayonnaise. mayo. said:
Might I ask for the reputation of byulharang? He plans on signing up for this super epic tour and I have no idea who he is.
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Yeah he's ultra well known around these parts. We usually call him the "Holy Ghost of Ubers" or the "Lost Prince of ADV Ubers"

Ehmcee said:
To be clear, nothing about Ubers Tiering Policy states that Ubers should be a format with the least bans possible, but specifically the least Pokemon bans as possible.

Sources:
chaos

Post in thread 'Redefining Ubers for the next generation - A Proposal'

Quick summary of my thoughts from the CL discord.

The goal of the tiering system is: for every Pokemon (within reason), ensure there exists a fun & competitive format to use it in. Being rigid & purist about Ubers has the potential of violating the fun part, and there is no point to having a format that nobody wants to play. But trying to achieve this with Pokemon bans like OU violates the "for every Pokemon" part, as Ubers is the "format of last resort" (not incl. AG, which we make zero promises about being fun OR competitive). Plus, since every Pokemon in Ubers is overcentralizing by...
  • Like
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/formats/uber/
Click to expand...
Any format naturally needs to minimize its banlist where possible. An old post not explicitly mentioning minimizing overall bans compared to pokemon bans does not change this - they probably just forgot. You do not (quick)ban something just because you can, you ban it if it is broken. OU doesn't, PU doesn't and Ubers especially shouldn't. Otherwise we could clause any non pokemon out!
 
Ok, It took me to log back in to the forums to realize how inactive I have been on the forums despite doing mons stuff pretty frequently on discord, but anyways... back to what I was about to talk about.

:koraidon:

No no I am absolutely against banning it this is not a convince the council to ban post at all, but instead I wanted to promote the use of iron head koraidon to y'all! With iron head over flare blitz, koraidon can easily dismantle the fairyceus + Kyogre cores many teams rely on to check koraidon, since koraidon can still damage fairyceus under the rain with iron head. Pretty often we see Kyogre switching into korai as it swords dances, then switches into arc fairy to wall it, but with iron head korai you can take out fairyceus with a +2 Low kick on the switch then a Tera steel iron head, which Tera steel also helps with Zacian who nowadays drops CC sometimes and Ekiller and eternatus and whatnot! I have tested this on the ladder and it was hilarious, trust me, like seriously its great. However I was not the one who came up with it, that titles goes to uhhh... idk tbf but not me.
Meteo L Drago LW105 LF (:Koraidon:) @ :Loaded Dice: / :Heavy Duty boots:
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Low Kick
- Scale Shot / Wild Charge

HDB is incredible into HO mirrors, Would recommend checking it out.

Aero Pegasus 3-70 A (:Arceus-Fairy: )@ :Pixie Plate:
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Judgment

oh yeah this set is pretty fun too try it out (not biased trust)

Driger V2? (:Landorus-therian:) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Taunt / Rock Tomb

Oh yeah and this dude over here I really like using on some offense teams I use on the ladder, it provides a great temporary switchin to korai Zac and whatnot and can allow your support arcs to drop rocks for a different set. this thing can sometimes drop taunt cuz decreased NDM usage but ye.
 
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