Trust me I am an offense enjoyer. Ditto is the best revenge killer in the tier imo and even stops non sub basculegion (maybe (I don't know if they run scarf))
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Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - DLC 2 Edition
- Thread starter Fc
- Start date
Double dance miraidon commonly runs electric seed. It runs a set of agility, calm mind and dragon pulse. The electric move can either be electro drift for more power or parabolic charge to recover hp, which can be nice due to boosting defenses. Its a decent set.
Miraidon @ Electric Seed
Level: 100
Modest Nature
Tera Type: Dragon
Ability: Hadron Engine
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
- Electro Drift
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Agility
The set's busted behind screens. If you run that kinda HO, I highly recommend it. If not, a more standard Mirai set like boots pivot or lo sweeper would probably be better off for you. You can see heatranator's set if you end up using it. I'd probably run tera fairy over dragon, but that's just me.
To add on to what the two previous replies before this said, you might also want to consider parabolic charge, I think that's the name of the electric giga drain, for some recovery. The main reason being of course, extreme killer. Of course, being longer in the field helps because once this Miraidon gets going, it can become pretty hard to stop. As for Ting Lu and Iron Treads, simply don't use Miraidon until those two are sufficiently weakened. There's really not much Miraidon can do to a full health Ting Lu and Treads
+1 252+ SpA Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Arceus in Electric Terrain: 409-483 (94.8 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Miraidon through Reflect: 54-64 (13.3 - 15.8%) -- possible 7HKO
I'm not dissing parabolic charge here, but I'd say that e-drift is significantly better behind screens. Of course, not many use them, and I would very much recommend charge if you don't.
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Miraidon through Reflect: 54-64 (13.3 - 15.8%) -- possible 7HKO
I'm not dissing parabolic charge here, but I'd say that e-drift is significantly better behind screens. Of course, not many use them, and I would very much recommend charge if you don't.
I would argue that Parabolic Charge is better in screens because the recovery of parabolic charge, along with the reduced damage from screens, along with the 1 or 2 CM boosts to special defense allow it to snowball quickly, and the healing can make it impossible to revenge kill in some situations.
I don't think this set is viable at all, for many reasons, first of all, you based your calc on Koraidon, it's not the only Pokémon in the tiers, you are completed wall by Necrozma Dusk Mane and many other mons of the tier (I will not make an exhaustive list of calcs
0+ SpA Glimmora Mud Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 34-40 (8.5 - 10%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0+ SpA Glimmora Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 76-90 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 29.4% chance to 4HKO
0+ SpA Glimmora Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 76-90 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 29.4% chance to 4HKO
If you are new to game I highly suggest you to check thoses ressources:
Viability Rankings <= to check what is played and be prepared of the most threats of the tier
Sample teams<= if you can not build try to play sample teams to understand the meta and then cook your own team !
The reasons that mud shot is used is not because that it threatens damage, but because that it prevents NDM from dragon dancing to victory in front of you. dazzling gleam is for any greedy swords dance koraidon users looking to win right away. DBJ isnt new, in fact, he is pretty good imo. also, max spdef ndw isn't a real pokemon, ndws niche in the tier is a trick room attacker and even with that niche its only C tier, maybe you should be the one learning. koraidon is also arguably the best mon in the tier, extremely splashable on almost all teamstyles with its choice scarf set.
Also, a good HO lead only needs to set hazards, die and at the same time prevent your opponent from setting up for free.
the biggest problem with the set is that this set loses the standard mirror, tbf.
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respectfully, this is incorrect and not meta accurate, and comes off condescending.
If you are new to game I highly suggest you to check thoses ressources:
Viability Rankings <= to check what is played and be prepared of the most threats of the tier
Sample teams<= if you can not build try to play sample teams to understand the meta and then cook your own team !
First of I missed the point of the set by far and if it feels like condescending it was not my point at all.
mb I missed the point of your post, secondly to answer of you question almost none of the payblable pokémon of the meta can handle the combo type of ground/fairy
After a bit of trial and error testing I feel like Arceus Dark is definately one of the more appealing arceus forms i will be experimenting with, it does pretty well into a lot of the physical attackers that I'm running into a lot (Ekiller, Calyrex I, NDM, and Koraidon if you manage tera correctly). It can also be very effective into some more niche things like Giratina O, which i dont think has much staying power but it is notable as defog. Struggles into a lot of the common special attackers but ive also found success out offensing things like Kyogre and Eternatus so far, so we shall see. Very excited to see what this meta brings, Koraidon does immediately feel overwhelming but it is also too early to say anything confidently.
So Miraidon is gone, I wonder if Koraidon may join it in AG hell soon?
Koraidon while not nearly as oppressive as Miraidon is still busted so we might see it go.
Koraidon while not nearly as oppressive as Miraidon is still busted so we might see it go.
Banning Koraidon within a few days of Miraidon's ban would be tiering malpractice, especially since this is the Ubers meta where the threshold for bans is higher. Koraidon will not be subject to tiering action before the meta has settled after this seismic shift with consistent high ladder and tournament dominance guiding the way before it gets a high enough score on a tiering survey.
This is like all the times you kept asking for a Roaring Moon ban in OU (yes, I know Koraidon is way more powerful comparatively in their respective tiers) despite it no longer even showing up on tiering surveys. If Koraidon is meant to be removed from the tier, it will in due time, not because you want it to happen so badly.
This is like all the times you kept asking for a Roaring Moon ban in OU (yes, I know Koraidon is way more powerful comparatively in their respective tiers) despite it no longer even showing up on tiering surveys. If Koraidon is meant to be removed from the tier, it will in due time, not because you want it to happen so badly.
the guy did not even say that koraidon should immediately get banned, it was just speculation. Blazie is not the only guy speculating if koraidon is gonna be broken in this meta, I'm inclined to agree given my experience with the new meta so far, but with time im sure a more definitive answer will arise
He may not have said it should immediately get banned, but he directly asked if it could be sent to AG hell soon, and sending it to AG anytime soon would be tiering malpractice, especially for this tier, as I indicated.
ur just being incredibly petty and not adding anything real to this discussion, id be interested to hear your own opinion on koraidon and not blazie's apparent determination to promote tiering malpractice.
I dont understand arguments like this, if you want to just use broken pokemon you can play ag. I think Reje put it really well, Ubers is at a point right now where a lot of people aren't just wanting it to be a fun broken mons tier, we want a playable, enjoyable, and competitive metagame. I believe the notion that tiering decisions should be made on the merit of maintaining this nebulous idea of an "ubers identity" just isnt really responsible if we want a competative tier.
I kind of understand the point of pokemon being looked at not being on the same power level as previously banned pokemon, however that doesn't mean that we should ignore a pokemon that is making a metagame unhealthy and less enjoyed by over 80% of the voters. Miraidon was viewed to be an active negative impact on the tier, and action was taken because of that. If with time the same view is taken on Koraidon, action should be taken, and shouldn't be held back because it "redefines the ubers identity".
Kyurem-Black @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Teravolt
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 76 Atk / 252 SpD / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Scale Shot
- Icicle Spear
- Fusion Bolt
I've been experimenting with using Black Kyurem as a Kyogre counter, given how more prevalent Kyogre is without Miraidon running around, and I think I've gotten some good results. Ice/Dragon is great into Kyogre, as it resists Water STAB and Thunder and is neutral to Ice Beam. However a standard set into Specs Kyogre can still be OHKOd:
176+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black in Rain: 350-412 (89.5 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
While this set won't even come close against even a specs Kyogre:
176+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-Black in Rain: 271-320 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As for a non Specs Kyogre:
176+ SpA Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-Black in Rain: 133-157 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This definitely isn't a perfect set, though; because of all the IVs we pump into defense, we need to compromise speed or power. This will affect the matchup into the steels; reducing our power will greatly hurt the Necrozma-Dusk Mane matchup, while reducing speed will hurt the Zacian-Crowned matchup. I chose to compromise speed since Black Kyurem is awful into Zacian already, but it will still hurt its ability to sweep if a team packs both. Still, Kyogre often commands an answer when its brought, and Black-Kyurem combines that with the ability to be a threat in its own right.
I and other people say that Uber’s identity is important because one could argue that you can just make AG into new Ubers, Uber into new OU, UUbers into new UU, etc.
Eventually the slippery slope combined with regular OU’s powercreep will call to question why Ubers even still exists alongside OU. Just make them the same tier in like 2032 or something.
may i ask why all your kyogre calcs at 176 modest and not a maximum invest, I ask this because the extra invest is very important if you want this thing to take a hit when rocks are up
Kyurem-Black @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Teravolt
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 76 Atk / 252 SpD / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Scale Shot
- Icicle Spear
- Fusion Bolt
I've been experimenting with using Black Kyurem as a Kyogre counter, given how more prevalent Kyogre is without Miraidon running around, and I think I've gotten some good results. Ice/Dragon is great into Kyogre, as it resists Water STAB and Thunder and is neutral to Ice Beam. However a standard set into Specs Kyogre can still be OHKOd:
176+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black in Rain: 350-412 (89.5 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
While this set won't even come close against even a specs Kyogre:
176+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-Black in Rain: 271-320 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As for a non Specs Kyogre:
176+ SpA Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-Black in Rain: 133-157 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This definitely isn't a perfect set, though; because of all the IVs we pump into defense, we need to compromise speed or power. This will affect the matchup into the steels; reducing our power will greatly hurt the Necrozma-Dusk Mane matchup, while reducing speed will hurt the Zacian-Crowned matchup. I chose to compromise speed since Black Kyurem is awful into Zacian already, but it will still hurt its ability to sweep if a team packs both. Still, Kyogre often commands an answer when its brought, and Black-Kyurem combines that with the ability to be a threat in its own right.
It was the default on the damage calculator, but even with a maxed special attack this set still lives:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-Black in Rain: 284-335 (72.6 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Generally Non-scarf Kyogre runs tons of bulk investment in order to survive all of the Koraidons and Zacian-Crowned running around; for instance, without bulk investment Kyogre always dies to a Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge:
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 358-422 (104.9 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But with enough bulk investment will always survive it:
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Kyogre: 328-388 (81.1 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With so much EVs for bulk, this leaves Kyogre unable to max special attack. Rain boosted Origin Pulses are usually enough to blast most things to smithereens anyway, so the tradeoff is usually worth it.
I also just want to say this argument still doesn't really make any sense, there is no mandate in place saying ubers has to keep X number of things things legal as to not become OU 2 and vice versa. Ubers will still be fundamentally different from OU with Koraidon in it or not, and from my understanding OU tiering policy is not en route to become anything close to the standard of ubers, ever. However even if that was the case, tiering decisions now should not be made in fear of this slippery slope turning ubers into OU in 2032, i'm sure with the strong communities all these tiers have built up the tiers will still have a reason to exist.
Calling into question the judgement of the council and the majority of the playerbase over something so minor feels incredibly pointless, if Koraidon gets banned and you feel ubers isnt enjoyable you can go play AG or something. The tiering system that we have now is in place so you can find a place to play where most pokemon can have a niche somewhere, while maintaining a healthy metagame to play, so again restricting decisions based off of a worry of "maintaining tier identity" is pointless, when said tiers also have strong communities, councils, and tiering systems already in place to allow as many pokemon as possible to be used.
In short I think you are worrying if a problem that doesn't exist. From what I can tell current OU tiering philosophy will in no way mean that Ubers could one day become irrelevant because OU decides to legalize everything, and Ubers will not go so trigger happy with bans that it becomes indistinguishable from OU. The hypothetical of Koraidon being banned does not lead to a slippery slope where Ubers disappears, it simply means Koraidon won't be in ubers anymore because the council and playerbase have decided it is unhealthy for the tier. If you really think that banning koraidon is a step too far, if a suspect ever happens you will always be able to vote "do not ban".