Resource Ubers Teambuilding Compendium

compared to the other stuff listed clef is unreliable. hard pressed to switch into any attack (needs to come in basically at full) and is 2hkoed by adamant variants after lefties recovery. it doesn't take hits nearly as well as the other stuff listed there, can't do much to arceus in return (being forced to wish tect makes it predictable and you could either give a threat a free switch or just get trapped by gar) and is notably more difficult to fit onto a team. clef's usefulness in ubers is already reflected as being a dark check imo
 

shrang

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Clefable is easily trapped by Mega Gengar too, while not a complete kill to its viability, is an undesirable trait to have on a defensive Pokemon. It's the same reason why people are less than willing to use Fairyceus or Solgaleo as part of their defensive cores.
 
You all need to remember that not its viability or likeability is in question, but rather its prowess as an ekiller check.
In my opinion Clefable is a viable pokemon in the tier, but besides that, it is able to check Ekiller.
Why shouldn't it be listed as such when the latter is a fact?
Just because the majority doesn't like to include it in their build, or question its viability?
I don't think so, and would have to agree with Transcendent God Champion.
Even though Clefable might not be as solid of a pokemon to use as other (shady) ekiller checks, its ability to do the former cannot be denied.

When I talk about shady ekiller checks, I'm talking about offensive ghost types for the most part.
Pokemon like Lunala and Mega Gengar, who rely on hitting a Focus Blast to kill it, and would either straight up die, or be killed in 2 if Focus Blast misses (I get that they're offensive checks and all, but still).
By Dominatio's logic of saying it can't switch into an Adamant Ekiller (which btw isn't true, it can), for example Primal Kyogre wouldn't be a Ho-oh check, as even a defensive variant can't switch into any viable variant of Ho-oh.

252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Clefable: 156-185 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Clefable: 120-142 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

196+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Kyogre: 208-247 (51.6 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Kyogre: 250-295 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I'm not trying to deny their capability to check, but rather trying to prove that Clefable should be listed as an ekiller one.
In my opinion, it is a noteworthy enough one to the point where I think it should be listed.
 
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I also think that Alolan Muk should be added to Dark, and Ghost type resists, as it does the former.
Keep in mind that this is my opinion, but I think it is a great and viable option that is being slept on.
It is able to take any dark/ghost type move fairly well, and deals with most ghosts effectively, as well being able to poison opponents in multiple ways.
 
You all need to remember that not its viability or likeability is in question, but rather its prowess as an ekiller check.
In my opinion Clefable is a viable pokemon in the tier, but besides that, it is able to check Ekiller.
Why shouldn't it be listed as such when the latter is a fact?
Just because the majority doesn't like to include it in their build, or question its viability?
I don't think so, and would have to agree with Transcendent God Champion.
Even though Clefable might not be as solid of a pokemon to use as other (shady) ekiller checks, its ability to do the former cannot be denied.

When I talk about shady ekiller checks, I'm talking about offensive ghost types for the most part.
Pokemon like Lunala and Mega Gengar, who rely on hitting a Focus Blast to kill it, and would either straight up die, or be killed in 2 if Focus Blast misses (I get that they're offensive checks and all, but still).
By Dominatio's logic of saying it can't switch into an Adamant Ekiller (which btw isn't true, it can), for example Primal Kyogre wouldn't be a Ho-oh check, as even a defensive variant can't switch into any viable variant of Ho-oh.

252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Clefable: 156-185 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Clefable: 120-142 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

196+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Kyogre: 208-247 (51.6 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Kyogre: 250-295 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I'm not trying to deny their capability to check, but rather trying to prove that Clefable should be listed as an ekiller one.
In my opinion, it is a noteworthy enough one to the point where I think it should be listed.
First off, you're using defensive Clefable in your calcs, which automatically makes me question their effectiveness. Defensive Clefable has practically no use in this meta compared to the benefits specially defensive variants provide (such as checking Xerneas, Lunala, Yveltal) and really only deals with ekiller, still getting 2hkoed by Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence.

Lunala and Mega Gengar are able to outspeed ekiller and revenge it with the appropriate coverage move. I'll assume we're not going to take into account factors beyond our control, such as misses, which theoretically should not happen a majority of the time. Primal Kyogre is a Ho-Oh check since some offensive variants can outspeed and KO it, while defensive variants can take a Brave Bird and KO with Scald (after recoil). Kyogre can even threaten Ho-Oh out, which Clefable can't do to ekiller. When looking at checks we need to consider not only how it fares 1v1 but also how well it performs in the general scope of the game. Clefable is much harder than the other stuff listed (Zygarde-C, Lugia, Gira-O, Mega Gengar) to fit on teams; it doesn't have the best defensive typing, practically no offensive presense, mediocre bulk, and is extremely reliant on hazard control to be able to switch into the few things it is able to check. If you think just because something checks ekiller it should be listed under 'ekiller checks', we might as well add Hippowdon to the list since it gets moves such as Toxic and Whirlwind and has much better physical bulk.
 
I'll assume we're not going to take into account factors beyond our control, such as misses, which theoretically should not happen a majority of the time.
Imagine if your team not being swept by an Extreme Killer Arceus (an incredibly common Pokémon, mind you) hinged on hitting it with Lunala's or Mega Gengar's Focus Blast. In theory, this would mean that if you were to battle twice, and your opponent had an Extreme Killer Arceus in both battles, you would have no more than a 49% chance of winning both of those battles. Are you honestly able to tell me that such a team can possibly qualify as a good team?
 
Imagine if your team not being swept by an Extreme Killer Arceus (an incredibly common Pokémon, mind you) hinged on hitting it with Lunala's or Mega Gengar's Focus Blast. In theory, this would mean that if you were to battle twice, and your opponent had an Extreme Killer Arceus in both battles, you would have no more than a 49% chance of winning both of those battles. Are you honestly able to tell me that such a team can possibly qualify as a good team?
If hitting a Focus Blast is literally your only way to beat ekiller, than it's obviously not a good team. However, most teams with Scarf Lunala or Gengar also run other soft checks for ekiller, such as Dialga, Mence, Xerneas, or other mons that ekiller can't set up on.
 
confused how clef can be considered an ekiller check yet not ttar lol
Probably because:
Ttar can't even 1v1 unless choice band low kick/superpower
TTar cant switch in on anything but Shadow Claw
TTar cannot take softcheck boosted Arceus for the team
It takes very little chip for even unboosted Arceus to 1v1 Tyranitar
 
Not being able to 1v1 ekiller doesn't mean it's not a check. Landorus-T and Gira-O are both unable to 1v1 ekiller, especially Recover variants. Shuca ttar is able to soft check ekiller in some cases, taking a +2 eq and dealing massive damage back with Foul Play. While I'm not convinced ttar should be an ekiller check, I agree with ttg on this one, defining clef as one and not ttar seems weird. ttar carrying shuca berry can at least switch in once to ekiller, while to have any chance to check ekiller after switching in clef is forced to Protect which just lets something that forces it out come in and prevent it from healing itself.

Also add Primal Kyogre to ekiller checks imo. Defensive variants can take +2 espeeds and 2hko with Scald, while offensive variants can take an unboosted Extreme Speed and prevent ekiller from setting up.
 
it still beats viable ekiller sets such as recover or ice beam and shuca foul play is definitely viable. i'm not the only player who has used the set in high level but i've seen trout and shadowquinn use it

e: the fact that it beats multiple viable ekiller sets that lack eq should be enough to be listed as a check. i dont think im crazy for thinking it should be listed as a check when multiple other good players recognize it as a pretty good check on offensive sand teams and we're considering mons like defensive clefable an ekiller check.
 
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hyw

Banned deucer.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Shuca Berry Tyranitar: 199-234 (49.3 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

+2 0- Atk Tyranitar Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 276-325 (72.2 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Brick Break's usage is 0%; I haven't read the discussion above but if TTG is arguing that Ttar is an Ekiller check there's no valid point of contension lol
 
ttar actually can afford to run spd still on shuca/foul play and still tank eqs. generally i prefer spd still

e: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Shuca Berry Tyranitar: 244-289 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I think Arceus-Flying should be added to ground immunities.
Even though it isn't a fantastic mon, it still qualifies as an immunity.
 
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Wob

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Skarmory and Mence should be added to anti-hazard support.

Also, Pheromosa should really be removed from Dark resists. Sure, it resists Dark, but it has almost Deo-A level defenses. You're not going to be using it for its defensive synergy.
 
Maybe wanna add:
Stealth Rock Setters

Spikes | Toxic Spikes

Dark-Type Resists



We saw the first five mons as Rock / spikes setters. Buzzwole can check Dark types as Darkceus according Fireburn's calcs
+1 0 SpA Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Judgment vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Buzzwole: 165-195 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Buzzwole Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dark: 246-290 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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Wob

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There aren't a lot of viable VoltTurn users in the tier either. There's basically Yveltal, Genesect and the occasional Lando-T. Volt Switch Zekrom is also a thing but it's incredibly rare.
 
There aren't a lot of viable VoltTurn users in the tier either. There's basically Yveltal, Genesect and the occasional Lando-T. Volt Switch Zekrom is also a thing but it's incredibly rare.
i agree but i would rather having a lil' list somewhere instead of memorizing ,this example show you, you forgot about scizor and he is as common as other you told before but, thx. Let's back to the topic i guess
 


Arceus-Fairy still need to be listed as a Stealth Rock setter. I posted this suggestion over 2 months ago :/
 
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