Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon UU Viability Ranking

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#51
Nominating Sneasel from Unranked to C-

Sneasel is actually a threat in this meta, doing massive damage to many of the common threats in the meta. My favorite set is Icicle Crash,Ice Shard, Knock Off, and low kick.

Some calcs-

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 221-263 (68.4 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 165-196 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias: 361-429 (99.1 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias: 151-179 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I don't even need to put the calcs for a gliscor, now do I?

Anyways, this mon has been a great use on my team and really can destroy a lot of other peoples, if you can just predict correctly.
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#52
I don't think damage calculations are enough to justify Sneasel's ranking. UU has a lot of good priority users that not only deal neutral or SE damage to Sneasel, but also resist one or both of its STABs. The other fundamental problem with the nomination is that you don't list the advantages it has against Pokemon with similar functions (i.e. Mamoswine).
 
#53
Nominating Sneasel from Unranked to C-

Sneasel is actually a threat in this meta, doing massive damage to many of the common threats in the meta. My favorite set is Icicle Crash,Ice Shard, Knock Off, and low kick.

Some calcs-

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 221-263 (68.4 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 165-196 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias: 361-429 (99.1 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias: 151-179 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I don't even need to put the calcs for a gliscor, now do I?

Anyways, this mon has been a great use on my team and really can destroy a lot of other peoples, if you can just predict correctly.
These calcs really don't make sense - Scizor often runs defensive investment, and Latias barely ever does. Also, according to your spreads Sneasel does not OHKO your 252hp Latias with Pursuit which is pretty useless (while it in fact does OHKO normal Latias).

There are two big things that I don't like about Sneasel:

1) Its outclassed, period. Alolan Muk is a far better Pursuit trapper just to the existence of its secondary typing being good unlike Sneasel's terrible ice typing leaving it weak to lots of priority (particularly Scizor's Bullet Punch) and Alolan Muk being able to reliably switch into Psychic-types. Mega Absol also outclasses it as a more offensive Pursuit trapper (and also has a far better ability). Mamoswine (and even Mega-Abomasnow to an extent) heavily outclasses it as an offensive Ice-type and both have STAB priority Ice Shard. Sneasel can't OHKO Mega-Scepetile with Ice Shard after rocks if it doesnt mega evolve while Mamoswine can and that can be pretty important. Mamoswine only takes normal Stealth Rock damage as well meaning it gets so much more longevity compared to Sneasel.

2) Its just set-up fodder in way too many situations. Way too many free turns. It gives Azumaril a risk-free use of belly drum, which can often mean game over for your team, it gives Scizor a free Swords Dance (don't say you hit it with Knock for like 50 because it can easily bullet punch and you lose your Sneasel for nothing), it gives Mega Aggron a free Curse, Suicune gets a free Calm Mind, Crawdaunt a free Swords Dance, I could go on, and it gives a plethora of Pokemon like Toad, Empoleon, Swampert, Rotom Wash, Klefki, Florges, and more free opportunities to set hazards or remove them.

I actually tried Sneasel out a week or two ago for a few games and it was actually horrendous, please don't rank this mon.
 
#54
Update for December 8th - December 23rd

Notes for this update:
  • First of all and as usual, thank you for the contributions and feel free to mention if you think your post didn't get the attention it deserved
  • Also, because of the lack of tier shifts, this is just a regular update - expect a bigger update in the days after the tier shift (which should be by January, but that's beyond UU's control)
  • No discussion points again because we are anticipating some stuff to change with those shifts but feel free to talk about anything you think is important or interesting

Rises

Heracross A- → A

Even though stall has risen recently in usage and viability, it still struggles to find good responses to Swords Dance Flame Orb Heracross. Standard Fighting resistances and physical walls like Doublade, Alomomola, Quagsire, and Altaria Mega take extremely heavy damage or even 100% from boosted moves. While Heracross has problems with staying power, it still puts in good work versus balanced and offensive teams because they often totally lack switchins to even a +0 Heracross. Heracross is definitely becoming a mainstream attacker now.


Alomomola B+ → A-

The reliable stall core of Blissey + Alomomola + Quagsire is showing the metagame how dominant it is. As part of that core, Alomomola offers Wish support and the ability to counter stronger attackers like Choice Band Scizor and Life Orb Mamoswine. Alomomola’s utility is more appreciated than ever because of its ability to work well with Blissey and Quagsire.

Aggron Mega B+ → A-


It checks or counters a lot of prominent threats including practically all of S rank depending on their sets - even Gliscor can lose to Aggron Mega that run Ice moves. The average special defense and lack of recovery hold Aggron back from being a better defensive Pokemon, but it actually counters a lot of threats not by walling but by hitting back hard, being able to deal 70% damage to relatively study attackers like Latias and Serperior is quite nice.

Crobat B → B+

Offensive sets, particularly with Flynium Z, offer good power and Speed. For example, it OHKOs Latias with Z Brave Bird after Stealth Rocks. The ability to naturally check or revenge a large portion of the offensive metagame without even using Choice Scarf while also still providing utility through Taunt, Defog, and/or U-Turn, means Crobat is simply a good Pokemon in the metagame. The main flaw of poor coverage which leads to bad matchups versus few common Pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl and Rotom-Wash can be somewhat easily compensated for in a single partner like Seismitoad.


Snorlax B- → B

Rising because of ability to check and counter some special threats relatively easily that have been trending. Moltres, Manectric Mega, and Kyurem all have major difficulties with Snorlax because of its auto-recovery with Recycle + Figy Berry. However, Snorlax is still pretty susceptible to Knock Offs and status, particularly if it doesn’t use Facade which is a weak STAB. Lastly, while Normal + 1 coverage move isn’t bad, Snorlax still suffers from four moveslot syndrome to some extent, wanting both Fire Punch and Earthquake as coverage. These flaws prevent Snorlax from being mainstream, but do not hold it back from being both an extremely dangerous tank and tough to crack wall.

Volcanion B- → B

It checks quite a few prominent attackers like Scizor and Azumarill while holding tremendous offensive pressure in its flagship Choice Specs set. The overall good stats are somewhat offset by the Stealth Rock weakness and below average speed, but Volcanion still usually finds at least a couple chances to come in versus most teams and when it does, it has few reliable switchins bar Dragons and Blissey.

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Quagsire B- → B

It is one of the extremely useful Pokemon on stall that is nearly as ubiquitous as Blissey. It also is a hard stop to a lot of the Belly Drum attackers that have seen a surge with Aurora Veil recently.

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Necrozma C+ --> B-

Choice Specs sets have been used to some success and with Necrozma’s wide coverage, it does not have good switchins in the tier bar Blissey. The combination of potential sets Necrozma can run including Swords Dance, Choice Specs, support, and even Rock Polish increases the overall unpredictability and viability of Necrozma.

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Linoone unranked → C+

The classic Belly Drum set is very dangerous behind Aurora Veil because the main counterplay to Linoone is usually not letting it set up, but the Aurora Veil support lets it set up relatively reliably. It still has trouble with a few Pokemon like Scizor, although Scizor will need Superpower to KO. However the power is great and thanks to Seed Bomb, not even Quagsire can reliably stop Linoone. The main reason it is being ranked fairly low is because the large amount of support required, but when it works, the payoff is great.

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Tsareena unranked → C

It is surprisingly hard to wall since a lot of the physical walls don’t appreciate Grass moves and Power Whip off of a high Attack does very good damage. It has just enough coverage and utility moves to be considered viable.





Drops

Suicune A → A-

More of its counters are popping up and the previous rise to A was based on the Crocune set mainly (Rest + Sleep Talk + Calm Mind). More and more teams are prepared for this set now with attackers like Serperior who really take advantage of most Suicune sets.

Umbreon B- → C+

A lot of the threats it beat are not used anymore (like Mega Latias), while new threats like Serperior, Kommo-o, Azumarill, and fast Scizor (to beat Belly Drum Azumarill) all spell bad news for Umbreon. Certainly Umbreon is still viable, but just not as much.

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Smeargle C+ → C

Not much better than Araqunid, if at all. It exchanges a very remarkable amount of power and potential trapping ability a la Azumarill for more speed, hazards, Spore, and an overall better spot as a suicide lead. Not easy to compare directly since the two do quite different roles in addition to Sticky Web. To accompany this drop might come an Araqunid rise in the next update.

Slowbro C+ → C-

Still not used and still not good, Volt-Turn, counters few threats despite being a defensive Pokemon.
 

Attachments

#55
Nomming Mega Glalie from Unranked --> C

glalie-mega.gif

Glalie-Mega @ Glalitite
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Double-Edge / Explosion
- Freeze-Dry / HP Fire / Earthquake
- Ice Shard / Explosion
- Spikes

Broke to the 1600s using a team with this guy, definitely deserves some sort of rank in my experiences using it (s/o Master Ampharos for dishing the team, good looks fam). I would argue pushing C+ but willing to settle with C for now. If garbage like Slowbro is in C then this deserves it too. Glalie heavily pressures almost all defoggers in the tier, allowing it opportunities to Spike relatively consistently. Every Defogger can be 2hkoed with the right moves but you have to pick which you lose to. Glalie also breaks balance similarly to how Mamoswine performs (although not quite as well do to the lost power for a higher speed tier). The higher speed tier gives it a better matchup vs some offensive teams than Mamo. It can best it's traditional checks like Scizor, Rotom - Wash, and Volcanion with the right coverage move. Mix and match Glalie's attacks to your heart's content, but I highly highly recommend running Spikes on all sets. It's really the only true niche Glalie has other than being a Mamo alternative.

Obviously, some things hold it back from the B ranks. Opportunity costs of using your Mega slot is one of them. Mono Ice is god awful defensively, and factoring in hazards Glalie rarely gets more than one direct switch in, otherwise relying on sacs, Volt Turners, and double switches. Sets without HP Fire are giant Scizor bait (among other steel types), EQ less sets are free Volcanion switches. It cant run everything it wants. It also has competition from Mamoswine who has a better typing both offensively and defensively, and packs more power. Glalie fits on hyper offense with Stealth Rock suicide leads well as it can supplement with Spikes, giving it usage over Mamo. It also had a higher speed tier vs the crowded 80-99 group of Pokemon.

Synergy: Azelf HO teams love a Mega Glalie that can pressure all the defoggers and set up spikes than Explode to make sure Azelf's rocks stay up. Double explosion makes it incredibly hard for an opponent to remove hazards. Infernape provides a Scizor check for offense, takes advantage of the Spikes, and has U-turn to bring Glalie in for free.

4 SpA Glalie-Mega Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 168-200 (55.4 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Glalie-Mega Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 134-162 (44.3 - 53.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Glalie-Mega Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 134-162 (41.2 - 49.8%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


252 Atk Glalie-Mega Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 152-180 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(Double Edge obviously kills all the above, this shows that with some chip they have trouble doing their jobs to remove, as they can't switch directly into Glalie freely)

252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Moltres: 231-273 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Glalie-Mega Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine: 268-316 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

These are just some but you get the idea.


Just have the one right now (my opp didn't have the greatest team but imagine Rose and Donphan are replaced by Amoonguss and Hippo), Glalie pressures the team through spiking and it's strong STABs, allowing me to bust through a fat team without a dedicated stall breaker.

Edit: Replay #2, Azelf bops Scizor with a fire move and gets rocks up, with that done Glalie immediately kills two fat mons and chips the only speed control on my opponent's team, good game.

Replay #3, Opponent's fire resists were removed, Azumarill stayed in on Glalie not expecting Freeze Dry, it then served as win com, sealing the game for me.


Thanks for reading, and if this doesn't happen (or isn't even talked about) immediately due to shifts that's fine.
 
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#56
I've been in touch with UU system for a little bit while I was on hiatus x hiatus, and now that I'm back, I've been playing a good amount while also reading info on the meta in threads. At first glance, I thought the vr was solid but, after some games (about 20) I'm now questioning certain rankings. I'm not 100% on my opinions right now, I just want to speak my mind and see what other people say.

Gliscor S rank? - I'm not sure why Gliscor is ranked so high. I understand that it has amazing techs in roost, defog, stealth rock, swords dance, and toxic stall; all paired up with poison heal. But to me, this meta is extremely fast-paced, and I don't think Gliscor has a good time handling it. Sure, Gliscor is great against stall, which is fantastic right now but, Hyper Offensive teams are getting better too & I don't think Gliscor matches up well against it. Rotom-W, HP Ice Mega Mane, Offensive Azumarill, Z Latias, Z Serperior, and SD Facade Heracross are all threats that are on the rise; each one having good usage. Just to add on, it does fair pretty well against U-Turn Hydreigon (which is awesome right now), chubby/hard-hitting sylveon, Mega Bee, and A-Muk. So to me, I would think Gliscor should be A+ or A rank; it handles one half of the meta with ease but, struggles with the other half. Sure, you could argue that it can grab momentum really well with stealth rocks, toxic, swords dance, and defog while healing from poison but, I feel like there are so many pokemon that grab momentum too while also providing a lot of other stuff to the table too. I guess I could see that it's S rank due to it's weird stats (not including SpAtk) when paired up with the coverage, techs, and ability. What I mean by weird stats is that it has a high defense stat (which means you barely have to put EVs into it), average attack & speed stat(you can mess with the EVs to better fit your team), and barely average HP & SpDf stat (which means you can still manage with it to live neutral special attacks). So with this, comes a lot of unpredictability in the favor high end players that know the meta really well. Gliscor's stats and movepool + ability may seem like awkward shit but, to a well-seasoned player, they can automize a set to perfectly fit their team's needs while, also catching other players off guard. This doesn't work perfectly on ladder, as ladder is random as deadpool, but it's perfect for tourneys. So, just to put emphasis - I'm not saying Gliscor should move down, just questioning its current status in the meta.

Mega-Altaria A+? - I don't think Mega Altaria fares this well in this meta to claim such a high ranking; in my opinion, I would say A rank or A- rank. The thing is, Mega Altaria has 4MSS and trouble with EV placement (EVP?). A lot of the times you want heal bell for the plethora of status abusers in this tier, Fire Blast for Omnipotent Scizor, and EQ for random bulky fire types that pop-up. Now, for EVs you want max speed for scarfers, max attack to ensure KOs, some EVs in HP because HP is borked, EVs in Defense or Special Defense to get up another DD if needed. It's just confusing for the DD set. For support sets it's also weird, as you're not sure what moves you want for whatever situation that might arise since Mega Alt can handle a lot of situations but, also come up dead without the right move. You want Fire Blast for Steels, Toxic/Return to speed up the process, Roost, Defog, Heal Bell, etc. It can be unpredictable but, it can also be unreliable so, you could bluff one set but if they guess right then you're busted. Also, not sure that it deals well with Hyper Offensive side of the meta, or the Stall side of the meta. Making the 4MSS even stronger. Even the EV placement shenanigans (EVPS?). Now, the same thing I said up there but, replace Gliscor with Mega Altaria.

Mega Manectic & Rotom-Wash in A+ rank - I seriously disagree with this. I really think they should be in S rank. Mega Mane is a near perfect Mega for the Meta/Hyper Offense; while, Rotom-W is a fantastic support mon for the Meta/Hyper Offense & Balance. Mega Mane fairs well against a lot of top threats, has the ability for faster threats that don't have a strong attack stat like Mega Aero (-1 252 Atk doing 64-76% while T-Bolt is guaranteed KO). Not to mention it has Flamethrower/Overheat for a quick knock out against Scizor, Serperior, and Heracross (while doing good damage against Mega Aggron). It also HP Ice for L-Rod M-Sceptile. Obvious Volt Turn abuse comment. Just an outstanding mon to say the least the least. Sure, it has trouble vs Stall as Quag messes with it but, it can HP grass for Quag, as Overheat does do big damage against M-Sceptile. Rotom-Wash is great with Pain Split, Volt Switch, Hydro Pump, and Defog. Just a really great set that heavily deals with the fast-paced meta at hand. Balance isn't that good at the moment but, Rotom-W really does help to push it up to make it viable. Pairing very well with Moltres, Scizor, Latias, Infernape, and many other threats. Just absoultey stellar with support, and offensive pressure. It handles HO & Stall fairly well; pain split + volt-switch (brings in trappers like Scizor) is super annoying for Blissey. Although I really want to see these 2 move up, I don't know if I really want to nom them just yet; these are just my thoughts for now.
 

Highways

Eric Dier sucks
is a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
#57
I'm not sure why Gliscor is ranked so high. I understand that it has amazing techs in roost, defog, stealth rock, swords dance, and toxic stall; all paired up with poison heal. But to me, this meta is extremely fast-paced, and I don't think Gliscor has a good time handling it.
You just said why Gliscor is that awesome and why he is easily the third best Pokemon in UU right now and then you say he isn't good at all because he can't handle some Pokemon? I don't know if you wanted to be funny or anything but I really don't get that.

Gliscor isn't just awesome because he has all of these tools, he is awesome because he can do exactly what your team needs. Need a Defogger? Gliscor. A SR setter? Gliscor. A stallbreaker? Gliscor. And there you go. It's been really hard not to use Gliscor recently, especially because of the role compression it provides a single team. For example, Defog allows Gliscor to beat most of the Stealth Rock setters 1v1, especially if it has Taunt. Stealth Rock is extremely useful for offense because it doesn't make Gliscor a simple setter; it makes Gliscor really unpredictable, as it might have Toxic, Taunt, Fire Fang, U-turn, Sand Tomb, and many other utility moves that can be, eventually, game changers. Swords Dance + Toxic singlehandly beats every single Xatu/Gliscor-less stall, and Swords Dance + Facade dismantles balance. Why do you think many people are using Ice Beam Latias at the moment? Scarf can't beat Toxic Gliscor without it. Oh, and most of the Pokemon you mentioned aren't really safe Gliscor checks. Azumarill hates switching into Earthquake if offensive or into Toxic if defensive, Rotom-W, Latias, and Serperior hate getting Toxic'ed as well, Heracross can't beat Taunt Gliscor 1v1 (every Taunt Gliscor is supposed to outspeed Heracross), HP Ice Mega Manectric sucks against more defensive variants, and of course, all of the Pokemon you mentioned can't switch into Gliscor safely because they will easily give Gliscor's team the momentum if it has U-turn. Gliscor is still one of the best (if not the best) Pokemon in the tier at the moment, definitely the most splashable. Let it alone.

I also strongly disagree with Rotom-W to S because oh well, I don't even think I need to explain how it got worse with Serperior and Azumarill.
 
#58
Mega manectric will never be S rank material, it's way too one dimensional and has no lonevity in the longer games, making it incredibly hard to beat any team that knows how to punish free volt turn switches. It literally has one set, and without any form of recovery it is nothing like any of the S tier mons. I don't think a pokemon with 1 set will ever be S, but that's not the only reason mega Manectric in particular won't be. To make matters worse, it takes up a mega slot, and cannot even reliably check what it wants to without a free switch, since not even intimidate can save it from uturn / EQ / any strong move.

I have no opinion on Altaria. Rotom is something i've never thought was as good as people say, but I guess I'll leave the others to duke it out. I know you asked why Gliscor is S, but I think it's a no brainer and Highways has already said why.
 
#59
Mega manectric will never be S rank material, it's way too one dimensional and has no lonevity in the longer games, making it incredibly hard to beat any team that knows how to punish free volt turn switches. It literally has one set, and without any form of recovery it is nothing like any of the S tier mons. I don't think a pokemon with 1 set will ever be S, but that's not the only reason mega Manectric in particular won't be. To make matters worse, it takes up a mega slot, and cannot even reliably check what it wants to without a free switch, since not even intimidate can save it from uturn / EQ / any strong move.
I want to reply to this section, for the rest is just fence-sitting with no substance. A Pokémon having only one set is no reason to keep it from S rank if that one set has it doing a variety of things in the current meta. Furthermore, Mega Manectric is arguably the most splashable mega in the tier, fitting on most offensive builds pretty easily, and has persistently shown itself to be an effective soft check to a plethora of physical attackers in the tier, such as Scizor, Cobalion, and Mega Shark if MMane is healthy enough. It taking up a mega slot isn’t an argument when there’s no other Pokémon that does it’s job, and this whole “not even intim can save it from u-turn/eq/any strong move” part is especially bullshit. You can literally apply this to anything like: “Scizor doesn’t have counters because it can U-Turn the switch”. Also, most Earthquakes in the tier can’t even OHKO MMane most of the time.

-1 252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric-Mega: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

-1 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric-Mega: 168-198 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


-1 252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric-Mega: 176-208 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Honestly, saying it “could never be S” because of one dimensionality/perceived frailty is shortsighted and incorrect. Why are you judging an offensive mon on its ability to take “any strong hit” as you say? Its bulk is decent enough to come in on certain attacks and pivot out, and expecting any more than that is insane.

Anyways, time for some noms:

B3B28330-E1A7-49AE-B0F7-3F657086C24C.png
Empoleon to B+: Empoleon faces too much competition from the likes of Rotom-W and Tentactuel as Water-type hazard removers. Its ability to switch-in to threats such as Pidgeot-Mega, Primarina, and the like is less valuable as their usage declines, and its passivity in such a momentum based metagame is extremely unappealing.

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Celebi to B/B+: Celebi functions as an excellent anti-meta pick. It can effectively lure in Alolan Muk with Nasty Plot Groundium Z sets, can offensively check Voltturn staples such as Rotom-W and Mega Manectric, as well as support and Stealth Rock sets being effective pivots and checks for Azumarill and Serperior. Celebi also benefits from the influx of Amoonguss and Tentacruel usage. All of these factors serve as ample justification for a rise.

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Krookodile to B/B-: Krookodile as a scarfer finds itself too slow to challenge common threats such as Hydreigon and Infernape, and is punished for whatever move it locks itself into. As a rocker, it’s hopelessly outclassed by Gliscor and Nidoking, where the former has reliable recovery in Roost and pivoting in U-Turn, the latter doesn’t give common defoggers such as Rotom W free switch-ins.

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Reuniclus to B-: Reuniclus serves as a potent stallbreaker and wincon. It’s bulk allows it to take on common threats such as Latias and Infernape. Place it with solid Scizor answers such as EButton + Mag support or Mantine and Offense struggles to beat Z-Focus Blast sets, especially ones that rely on AloMuk as their only check. Its matchup versus stall, however, is where it really shines. Magic Guard allows it to avoid residual damage and Calm Mind + Z Move sets allow it to break past defensive cores entirely or dent them enough for teammates to win.

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Mandibuzz to B-/C+: Mandibuzz faces increasing competition on fatter builds with Umbreon as a bulky Dark-type, and with Togekiss as a Fighting-type check. It is very passive, and does not respond well to the pivoting meta we have found ourselves in. It doesn’t beat common rockers such as Nidoking and Gliscor, who simply Ice Beam in the case of the former, or Toxic/Taunt in the case of Gliscor. The prevelance of Azumarill, Rotom-W, and MMane simply hurt it too much for it to stay where it is.

Hope you guys enjoyed my return after a long hiatus from Smogon. I definitely hope to do more noms in the future, as well as get more involved in UU projects as a whole!
 
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#60
You just said why Gliscor is that awesome and why he is easily the third best Pokemon in UU right now and then you say he isn't good at all because he can't handle some Pokemon? I don't know if you wanted to be funny or anything but I really don't get that.
Well, I'm not sure how you don't understand what I said throughout the post, even in bolded letters, that I'm just questioning it's current status in UU. Meaning, no nominations, just a good talk about how it handles the meta, and to see if it really is S rank material or not. Naturally, I give good reasons for both sides of the argument, because I am confused about what holds more bar with Gliscor.

Gliscor isn't just awesome because he has all of these tools, he is awesome because he can do exactly what your team needs. Need a Defogger? Gliscor. A SR setter? Gliscor. A stallbreaker? Gliscor. And there you go. It's been really hard not to use Gliscor recently, especially because of the role compression it provides a single team.
Yes, that's what I said in my post. All good reasons for being S rank. In fact, I went into detail too about the general idea of Gliscor's role compression. Now, here's the thing: what about some negatives Gliscor has? He has quite a few.

For example, Defog allows Gliscor to beat most of the Stealth Rock setters 1v1, especially if it has Taunt. Stealth Rock is extremely useful for offense because it doesn't make Gliscor a simple setter; it makes Gliscor really unpredictable, as it might have Toxic, Taunt, Fire Fang, U-turn, Sand Tomb, and many other utility moves that can be, eventually, game changers. Swords Dance + Toxic singlehandly beats every single Xatu/Gliscor-less stall, and Swords Dance + Facade dismantles balance. Why do you think many people are using Ice Beam Latias at the moment? Scarf can't beat Toxic Gliscor without it.
That's cool, didn't know about sandtomb. I've been doing my best to catch up on the past 3 months of metagame changes I missed out on. Also, I had no idea a lot of people were using ice beam on Latias. Saw no talk of it, and no game with it. But, that's good to know dude, thanks. Just from reading this, I can see a couple other reasons why people had Gliscor be S rank.

Oh, and most of the Pokemon you mentioned aren't really safe Gliscor checks. Azumarill hates switching into Earthquake if offensive or into Toxic if defensive, Rotom-W, Latias, and Serperior hate getting Toxic'ed as well, Heracross can't beat Taunt Gliscor 1v1 (every Taunt Gliscor is supposed to outspeed Heracross), HP Ice Mega Manectric sucks against more defensive variants, and of course, all of the Pokemon you mentioned can't switch into Gliscor safely because they will easily give Gliscor's team the momentum if it has U-turn.
Well, I didn't say they were checks, I said Gliscor has a tough time handling them. Not they have a tough handling him. So, how well does Gliscor switch into these threats?
So, yeah, that was a little rough but, hey that's okay. If anyone else is confused by my post, I do apologize. I'll try to do better in the next post.
 
#61
Mandibuzz to stay in B

I don't think Umbreon competes with the capabilities of Mandibuzz in fatter builds, Mandibuzz has some qualities over it, like a faster taunt and the ability to clear hazards away which is super useful in stall archetypes and fat teams. ( Nidoking isn't seen much as a common stealth rocker, most of Nido's sets are just all out attacking ones unlike his counterpart Nidoqueen in RU). Mandibuzz can cripple and taunt other rockers in the tier which are more prevelant than Nidoking such as Seismitoad,Swampert and Empoleon. Other things that Mandibuzz has going for it is a more reliable inmediate recover in Roost in comparison to Umbreon. Other options like Foul Play gives her more offensive presence and Knock off which gives her utility.

As for togekiss, While it's true that both of them have really good bulk that are super appealing for fatter builds, Mandibuzz has a more reliable way of crippling stall in taunt, whereas togekiss has air slash and t wave which is a bit inconsistent at times.

In the end, I don't think Mandibuzz deserves to drop, all these perks that has over other options in stall and fat teams are consistent enough to keep her in B
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#62
Reuniclus to B-: Reuniclus serves as a potent stallbreaker and wincon. It’s bulk allows it to take on common threats such as Latias and Infernape. Place it with solid Scizor answers such as EButton + Mag support or Mantine and Offense struggles to beat Z-Focus Blast sets, especially ones that rely on AloMuk as their only check. Its matchup versus stall, however, is where it really shines. Magic Guard allows it to avoid residual damage and Calm Mind + Z Move sets allow it to break past defensive cores entirely or dent them enough for teammates to win.
I personally think C+ is fine. Addressing the point on stall, CM Reuniclus is pretty potent, but the prevalence of Quagsire forces Reuniclus to run Energy Ball as coverage if it wants any hope of breaking Alo + Blissey + Quagsire; however, if Reuniclus takes Energy Ball, the coverage forces allows for extremely prevalent Pokemon in the metagame, namely Latias, AloMuk, and Scizor, to come in and force it out.

I guess you could make a case that one Pummeling and Focus Blast should kill Quagsire accordingly, but Focus Blast's 70% accuracy calls into question how solid it could possibly be.

0 SpA Reuniclus All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 233-275 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- not a KO
 
#63
Mandibuzz to stay in B

I don't think Umbreon competes with the capabilities of Mandibuzz in fatter builds, Mandibuzz has some qualities over it, like a faster taunt and the ability to clear hazards away which is super useful in stall archetypes and fat teams. ( Nidoking isn't seen much as a common stealth rocker, most of Nido's sets are just all out attacking ones unlike his counterpart Nidoqueen in RU). Mandibuzz can cripple and taunt other rockers in the tier which are more prevelant than Nidoking such as Seismitoad, Swampert and Empoleon. Other things that Mandibuzz has going for it is a more reliable inmediate recover in Roost in comparison to Umbreon. Other options like Foul Play gives her more offensive presence and Knock off which gives her utility.

As for togekiss, While it's true that both of them have really good bulk that are super appealing for fatter builds, Mandibuzz has a more reliable way of crippling stall in taunt, whereas togekiss has air slash and t wave which is a bit inconsistent at times.

In the end, I don't think Mandibuzz deserves to drop, all these perks that has over other options in stall and fat teams are consistent enough to keep her in B

Umbreon does compete with Mandibuzz, as it’s fatter, and can support teammates more directly with Cleric/WishPass support. Roost may be immediate, but Wishtect is more reliable due to the fact that you can take damage when using Roost. On your offensive presence point, Umbreon ALSO gets Foul Play,so that part is moot, and it’s not like Knock Off actually does meaningful damage to things. Also, with USM giving Defog to things such as Rotom-W or Gliscor, Defog Mandibuzz simply isn’t as valuable anymore to fat builds as a hazard remover. These factors don’t justify keeping it a full two subranks above Umbreon.

As for the next point, yes Mandibuzz can taunt those rockers, but it gives free switch-ins to their teammates in the process of doing so. Another thing is, Nidoking is an extremely prevelant rocker, and it’s seen often in ladder and tournaments, and I don’t know where you got this idea from that it’s not.

Finally, I don’t get how you can imply Mandibuzz is a better stallbreaker than Togekiss? Togekiss can single handedly 1v1 Blissey, Quag, and Alo, stall’s main backbone with Nasty Plot, Air Slash, and Heal Bell. Mandibuzz taunts a stall mons, and then what? They just sit there and PP stall you and you just wasted your time.

In the end, after reading your post, I advise you to read up on the meta some more. If you have any questions, feel free to post them on my wall. Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful new year.
 
#64
Umbreon does compete with Mandibuzz, as it’s fatter, and can support teammates more directly with Cleric/WishPass support. Roost may be immediate, but Wishtect is more reliable due to the fact that you can take damage when using Roost. On your offensive presence point, Umbreon ALSO gets Foul Play,so that part is moot, and it’s not like Knock Off actually does meaningful damage to things. Also, with USM giving Defog to things such as Rotom-W or Gliscor, Defog Mandibuzz simply isn’t as valuable anymore to fat builds as a hazard remover. These factors don’t justify keeping it a full two subranks above Umbreon.

As for the next point, yes Mandibuzz can taunt those rockers, but it gives free switch-ins to their teammates in the process of doing so. Another thing is, Nidoking is an extremely prevelant rocker, and it’s seen often in ladder and tournaments, and I don’t know where you got this idea from that it’s not.

Finally, I don’t get how you can imply Mandibuzz is a better stallbreaker than Togekiss? Togekiss can single handedly 1v1 Blissey, Quag, and Alo, stall’s main backbone with Nasty Plot, Air Slash, and Heal Bell. Mandibuzz taunts a stall mons, and then what? They just sit there and PP stall you and you just wasted your time.

In the end, after reading your post, I advise you to read up on the meta some more. If you have any questions, feel free to post them on my wall. Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful new year.
Knock off isn't supposed to do damage, it removes an item which is far more useful in longer games which are inevitable if using fat teams. Umbreon for example has no hope against a fat team or any team with recovery because foul play is a free switch for some mons, knock off isn't. The idea is also that Mandibuzz can taunt poorly made stall and in tandem with toxic or knock off it becomes harder to deal with. It shuts down everything except for Altaria, which is often competing with Aggron for the mega slot in fatter teams anyway. Taunt Umbreon doesnt do this as well as Mandibuzz. Also wish is not more reliable than roost, you take damage when you set up a wish too??? Lastly, USM gave defog to mons not typically as good as Mandibuzz is on stall. Gliscor sucks due to heal bell + knock off spam, Rotom-w has no recovery so its slightly worse on stall too.

I don't think Mandibuzz should drop, I think Umbreon should rise, to about where Mandibuzz is. B- seems better for both pokemon.

Anyway youre being unneededly passionate about this.
 
#65
I'm still of the belief that Krookodile is fine where it's at right now. I know it's still an ORAS set, but I've seen Band becoming more and more useful as stuff comes and goes. It does lose some of the outrun potential Scarf has against offensive teams, but a majority of offensive teams have a way to screw over Scarf anyways where Band can absolutely smash through a lot of balance that doesn't expect it.

Scarf can still be an annoyance against Offense as a revenge killer, though Serperior dropping does hassle it some more, and I don't know why anybody would run Rocks without combining it with another set.

Being able to OHKO Primarina with Earthquake will never get old to me, nor will the ability to 2HKO defensive Rotom formes with Knock Off. It's a like 50/50 unless any prior damage, but considering just how often they come in to check it, chip isn't that hard to handle.

Plus, gaining the ability to 2HKO an absolute ton of things that think they're safe against Scarf is always a plus. I'm assuming a set of Knock/Edge/EQ/Superpower though Pursuit can take Edge or Superpower off here.

Keep it in B+ for now, because it's sure as hell still a relevant threat.

252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 159-187 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 106-126 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 289-342 (96 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Gliscor doesn't like it either
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Gliscor: 180-213 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Gliscor: 121-144 (34.3 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
and sceptile can be nuked coming in
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sceptile-Mega: 231-272 (82.2 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
amoonguss would normally be a decent check but not anymore
252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 241-285 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

there's a few more things but you get the idea
 
#66
Nomming Vileplume from Unranked -> C

Alright so like this mon is severely slept on. With getting Strength Sap, this pokemon can completely wall fairies such as DD Mega Altaria, and can help a lot vs. Serperior with SpDef investment (I got this set from esche aka Wang Fire I take no credit for this set.)


Vileplume (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Powder

Grass STAB isn't really necessary on this mon with this set for the most part, it eventually beats most bulky waters including things like Seismitoad and Swampert by stalling out with Strength Sap, chipping with Sludge Bomb, and fishing for poisons, grass STAB doesn't do much damage aside from those mons anyways.

So from my experience this mon is a pain in the ass to kill, like deadass it's pretty easy to keep alive because of it's bulk and reliable healing with Strength Sap, and with the team I've been using, despite not having grass stab it has done a solid job at keeping bulky waters in check and has even gotten some hax with Effect Spore and Sludge Bomb to help.

Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Gunk Shot

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Atk / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Roost

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Roar

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Hyper Voice
- Heal Bell

Vileplume (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Powder

Rotom-Wash @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp


Alright so Vileplume so far on the alt Perc Nowitzki has been pretty consistent and here are some examples of this.
GAME 1: As you can see the opponent has a Serp and despite being taken down to 30 like turn 2 of the game Vileplume has no problem consistently staying alive and switching into things (like Serp throughout the game). And at the end of the game he hits me with the "Vileplume too strong" cuz he knows he just wasn't able to do nuthin. :)

GAME 2: This game is literally Vileplume 1v6, this dude has countless opportunities to Mega Evolve his Altaria but decides not to due to the Vileplume still being alive, Vileplume comes in a number of times and completely walls Mega Altaria, and either putting something to sleep on the switch, or doing a solid 30%. Once again at the end of the game I am hit with the "I can't deal with Vileplume, too difficult."

GAME 3: Now this game, Vileplume comes in on Amoonguss several times... (yes this mon beats it's superior 1v1, badass imo). It forces the Amoonguss out every time and gets a solid 50% off on the fire switch in with Sludge Bomb every time... Also it forces the Haxorus out after beating it in a 1v1.

+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Vileplume: 150-178 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Altaria-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Vileplume: 152-179 (42.9 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Vileplume: 196-232 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Vileplume: 132-156 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Vileplume: 220-259 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


On Scizor, despite taking a large chunk it is free to just spam Strength Sap and Hidden Power Fire, and therefore, beats Scizor 1v1, Vileplume also as you can see completely walls Malt and Serp like I said earlier in the post, one of the few mons that can check both of these mons with only using 1 slot.

Now yes, I understand the argument "uhh Amoonguss has regen... therefore it is outclassed by Amoonguss." Yes this is true, this mon is outclassed by Amoonguss, does this mean it is unviable tho?? hell naw. In fact, it does have something over Amoonguss, which is how broken Strength Sap is, im telling you this move alone is what is making this mon viable for the most part, you can see why in the replays :o.

Also please don't make your argument "BUT IT LOSES TO THIS, THIS, AND THIS," because this is an unranked mon that obviously loses to things like Moltres, Crobat, Mega Burd, etc. Scizor is literally the most viable mon in the tier and it still loses to plenty of things, so this really isn't an argument.

:D thanks for your time and give me ur thoughts! - vivalospride
 
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#67
Nominating Venomoth to be moved from C+ to B/B-

Venomoth is one of the most slept on sweepers in UU and has tremendous power if used as a late game sweeper. With 90 base special attack, 90 base speed, and decent bulk this mon can quiver dance up and with tinted lense, acting like huge power and doubling a moves power if resisted, Venomoth can OHKO Gliscor and other mons mons that resist its stabs from +1. People doubt The Moth yet it takes souls OHKO'ing Mega Steelix from +2 and preceding to sweep teams if priority is gone. One thing I must emphasize and that I will mention later is that Venomoth's power resides in being able to kill mons that resist it, bulky walls that have no type resistance to bug or poison will most likely live.


(Venomoth) @ Buginium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz
- Sludge Bomb

Set courtesy of Smogon not of my creation. Sleep powder can be replaced with roost and there has also been a substitute and disable set that I have seen work. There are always more sets to create to harness the power of Venomoth.

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Roost
- Heal Bell
- Flamethrower

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball
- Psywave

Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge

Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade

Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

Venomoth @ Buginium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz
- Sludge Bomb

I find that Venomoth puts in the most work on hyper offense. Venomoth doesn't appreciate mons like Latias and being statused which is why I have a cleric in Mega-Altaria and Bronzong. Venomoth also does not appreciate stealth rock but with plenty of removal in the UU tier it has enough support to enter the field at full health and set up. Sleep powder gives Venomoth an opportunity to put slower mons asleep and set up. Make sure to have a scizor bait such as max defense bold Altaria to eat a banded bullet punch and flame the Scizor back to the vile place it came from. Sets with roost allow it to continue to set up if there is a special attacking mon on the field. Also substitute and disable venomoth can disable a mons supereffective move and the substitute and set up sweeping with bug buzz. Venomoth struggles with breaking through stall so having it paired with wall breakers such as Haxorus and Heracross help utilize its power.

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 244 HP / 196 SpD Gliscor: 334-394 (94.8 - 111.9%)

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 346-408 (114.9 - 135.5%)

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 284-336 (78.2 - 92.5%)

252 SpA Venomoth Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 313-370 (79.4 - 93.9%)

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pidgeot-Mega: 398-468 (129.6 - 152.4%)

Here's a replay that showcases Venomoth's ability to set up easily on special mons and win the game.


Venomoth's power lies in killing mons that resist it. It is amazing versus stall because it cannot be poisoned. Venomoth's typing makes it unique special sweeper. Now sure Mega-Beedrill outclasses it as a poison and bug type sweeper but Mega-Beedrill doesnt learn quiver dance is meant for momentum whereas Venomoth is a late game sweeper. Now I realize that 90 | 90 aren't the most amazing special attack and speed stats it's ability makes it very threatening since type resistances don't halt its power.

This mon is definately outclassed by plenty of set up sweepers in the tier right now and dies to the monsters formally known as banded Azumarill and banded Scizor. I strongly belive that this mon has a more viable place in the meta than C+ tier. The combination of sleep powder and quiver dance allow venomoth to get to +2 meaning that it outspeeds every scarfer in the tier and can most likely OHKO any mon that comes in.

At this point you may be asking yourself, "hey self, why am I not using Venomoth?" It's probably because you're too swept up in the Serperior Scizor meta. Take a chance to use mons outside of the higher tiers and try Venomoth!

Any comments are appreciated! Ignore my cringe username, on Showdown I'm itsjustdrew. Bye now :)
 
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#68
Nominating Venomoth to be moved from C+ to B/B-

Venomoth is one of the most slept on sweepers in UU and has tremendous power if used as a late game sweeper. With 90 base special attack, 90 base speed, and decent bulk this mon can quiver dance up and with tinted lense, acting like huge power and doubling a moves power if resisted, Venomoth can OHKO Gliscor and other mons mons that resist its stabs from +1. People doubt The Moth yet it takes souls OHKO'ing Mega Steelix from +2 and preceding to sweep teams if priority is gone. One thing I must emphasize and that I will mention later is that Venomoth's power resides in being able to kill mons that resist it, bulky walls that have no type resistance to bug or poison will most likely live.


(Venomoth) @ Buginium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz
- Sludge Bomb

Set courtesy of Smogon not of my creation. Sleep powder can be replaced with roost and there has also been a substitute and disable set that I have seen work. There are always more sets to create to harness the power of Venomoth.

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Roost
- Heal Bell
- Flamethrower

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball
- Psywave

Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge

Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade

Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

Venomoth @ Buginium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz
- Sludge Bomb

I find that Venomoth puts in the most work on hyper offense. Venomoth doesn't appreciate mons like Latias and being statused which is why I have a cleric in Mega-Altaria and Bronzong. Venomoth also does not appreciate stealth rock but with plenty of removal in the UU tier it has enough support to enter the field at full health and set up. Sleep powder gives Venomoth an opportunity to put slower mons asleep and set up. Make sure to have a scizor bait such as max defense bold Altaria to eat a banded bullet punch and flame the Scizor back to the vile place it came from. Sets with roost allow it to continue to set up if there is a special attacking mon on the field. Also substitute and disable venomoth can disable a mons supereffective move and the substitute and set up sweeping with bug buzz. Venomoth has the ability to break through stall with the catch that it is walled by Blissey so having it paired with wall breakers such as Haxorus and Heracross help utilize its power.

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 244 HP / 196 SpD Gliscor: 334-394 (94.8 - 111.9%)

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 346-408 (114.9 - 135.5%)

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 284-336 (78.2 - 92.5%)

252 SpA Venomoth Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 313-370 (79.4 - 93.9%)

+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pidgeot-Mega: 398-468 (129.6 - 152.4%)

Here's a replay that showcases Venomoth's ability to set up easily on special mons and win the game.


Venomoth's power lies in killing mons that resist it. When dealing with mons such as Blissey and Alolan Muk, Venomoth is able to set up if Alolan Muk is without fire punch and can set up on Blissey because it cannot be poisoned and seismic toss doesnt do enough. It is amazing versus stall because it breaks through walls and cannot be poisoned. Venomoth's typing makes it unique special sweeper. Now sure Mega-Beedrill outclasses it as a poison and bug type sweeper but Mega-Beedrill doesnt learn quiver dance is meant for momentum whereas Venomoth is a late game sweeper. A mon that can set up in the face of Serperior is very well appreciated in this current meta. Now I realize that 90 | 90 aren't the most amazing special attack and speed stats it's ability makes it very threatening since type resistances don't halt its power.

This mon is definately outclassed by plenty of set up sweepers in the tier right now and dies to the monsters formally known as banded Azumarill and banded Scizor. I strongly belive that this mon has a more viable place in the meta than C+ tier. The combination of sleep powder and quiver dance allow venomoth to get to +2 meaning that it outspeeds every scarfer in the tier and can most likely OHKO any mon that comes in.

At this point you may be asking yourself, "hey self, why am I not using Venomoth?" It's probably because you're too swept up in the Serperior Scizor meta. Take a chance to use mons outside of the higher tiers and try venomoth!

Any comments are appreciated! Ignore my cringe username, on Showdown I'm itsjustdrew. Bye now :)
I extremely disagree with a Veno rise. First of all, it NEEDS setup to have any offensive presence, as 90 special is not great. Second, 75/60/75 bulk is not great at all, especially on the physical side and a weakness to SR. This makes it really hard to set up to +1. Yes, it does get Sleep Powder, but it loses out on Sub, Roost, or a HP by doing so, which will all provide more benefits.

Also, I don’t know what changed in the meta to make Veno more viable, and I’ve never seen one in my UU battles. C+ is fine for it atm.
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#69
Venomoth's power lies in killing mons that resist it. When dealing with mons such as Blissey and Alolan Muk, Venomoth is able to set up if Alolan Muk is without fire punch and can set up on Blissey because it cannot be poisoned and seismic toss doesnt do enough. It is amazing versus stall because it breaks through walls and cannot be poisoned. Venomoth's typing makes it unique special sweeper. Now sure Mega-Beedrill outclasses it as a poison and bug type sweeper but Mega-Beedrill doesnt learn quiver dance is meant for momentum whereas Venomoth is a late game sweeper. A mon that can set up in the face of Serperior is very well appreciated in this current meta. Now I realize that 90 | 90 aren't the most amazing special attack and speed stats it's ability makes it very threatening since type resistances don't halt its power.
I'm not too hot on the justification that it can set up on Blissey. Seismic Toss is still a 3HKO on Venomoth, and your ability to beat Blissey completely predicates on using Sleep Powder on it to gain free set-up turns. I would generally agree that Venomoth is good Sweeper, but calling it a stallbreaker is a bit of a stretch. Also, with Serperior:

200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 44-52 (15.6 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 200 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

The above scenario is when Venomoth switches in on a Leaf Storm. Upon switching into LS, Serperior gets +2 SpAtk. At +2, HP-Fire has over a 70% chance of killing Venomoth without a single opportunity to set-up.

This mon is definately outclassed by plenty of set up sweepers in the tier right now and dies to the monsters formally known as banded Azumarill and banded Scizor. I strongly belive that this mon has a more viable place in the meta than C+ tier. The combination of sleep powder and quiver dance allow venomoth to get to +2 meaning that it outspeeds every scarfer in the tier and can most likely OHKO any mon that comes in.
Many of the Pokemon in B- have a very strong characteristic that makes it more favorable in some team compositions. For example, M-Aggron generally outclasses M-Steelix, but M-Steelix's Ground type allows it to be a Volt Switch absorber. Similarly, Salazzle has a base 117 Speed that allows it to be a replacement to some A-rank sweepers if you have trouble with Pokemon at Speeds around 110-115.

The way I visualize what stays in C+ and what stays in B- is basically asking myself "would I add this Pokemon to my team if I was looking for a 5th or 6th member"? For most of B-, that trait usually applies since the Pokemon in that tier have a specific benefit that can patch up weaknesses. In Venomoth's case, the optimal way to use it effectively is to make a team built completely around Venomoth since it has no one single trait that is beneficial in the current metagame. In sweeper terms, it has few natural set-up opportunities against some of the top threats in UU.

In closing, C+ is fine for Venomoth. It can be very powerful under the right circumstances, but its reliance on a team built around it without contributing anything meaningful back to its team is what sets it at C+.
 
#70
I'm not too hot on the justification that it can set up on Blissey. Seismic Toss is still a 3HKO on Venomoth, and your ability to beat Blissey completely predicates on using Sleep Powder on it to gain free set-up turns. I would generally agree that Venomoth is good Sweeper, but calling it a stallbreaker is a bit of a stretch. Also, with Serperior:

200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 44-52 (15.6 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 200 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venomoth: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

The above scenario is when Venomoth switches in on a Leaf Storm. Upon switching into LS, Serperior gets +2 SpAtk. At +2, HP-Fire has over a 70% chance of killing Venomoth without a single opportunity to set-up.



Many of the Pokemon in B- have a very strong characteristic that makes it more favorable in some team compositions. For example, M-Aggron generally outclasses M-Steelix, but M-Steelix's Ground type allows it to be a Volt Switch absorber. Similarly, Salazzle has a base 117 Speed that allows it to be a replacement to some A-rank sweepers if you have trouble with Pokemon at Speeds around 110-115.

The way I visualize what stays in C+ and what stays in B- is basically asking myself "would I add this Pokemon to my team if I was looking for a 5th or 6th member"? For most of B-, that trait usually applies since the Pokemon in that tier have a specific benefit that can patch up weaknesses. In Venomoth's case, the optimal way to use it effectively is to make a team built completely around Venomoth since it has no one single trait that is beneficial in the current metagame. In sweeper terms, it has few natural set-up opportunities against some of the top threats in UU.

In closing, C+ is fine for Venomoth. It can be very powerful under the right circumstances, but its reliance on a team built around it without contributing anything meaningful back to its team is what sets it at C+.
I appreciate your comments and edited my post. I'm not taking down my nomination for Venomoth to be B tier.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#71
Talking of special poison sweepers, a nom of my own.

I think Salazzle could definitely move on up, a one rank jump to B seems fine here, I could see it maybe in B+ but a small raise is fine for now. It’s a solid offensive Serperior check that also has some potential vs fatter builds due to its combination of Toxic immunity, Nasty Plot and ability to beat Quagsire with HP Grass. These are all traits that are very useful in this metagame. Offensively other trends benefit it, as Aero isn’t as popular as it once was and it can be surprisingly difficult for teams to handle due to its speed and its lack of defensive responses outside of Aero and Muk in the A-S ranks, often forcing the sack and go to scarfer/fastmon play. Obviously it has its flaws, sr weak sucks on any mon, it isn’t terrifically powerful before it sets up a Nasty Plot but I definitely think it’s better than the Pokémon it’s currently ranked alongside.
 

esche

AKA Wang Fire
is a Tiering Contributor
#72
Re: Venomoth


Having used Venomoth for quite a bit in light of the most recent UU TeamRatingCompetitionTM, I can report that Venomoth actually is, or at least that I am of the opinion that Venomoth is, a decent stallbreaker. With 80 HP EVs it avoids the 3HKO from Seismic Toss, making it a lot easier to set up on Blissey and with a well timed Z-move it will break through both Quagsire and Pyukumuku, not even counting that Sludge Bomb poisons make both of these a lot easier to deal with. The heavy reliance of Stall builds on their physically defensive Unaware users versus the special sweeper Venomoth are what makes it so effective in that regard. Still, the occasional M-Aggron and M-Steelix will likely stop a Venomoth sweep cold unless they are heavily chipped (because of the need to save the Z-move for the Unaware users), and even though many stall builds are opting for M-Aerodactyl nowadays, which may be easier to break through thanks to its SR weakness, Venomoth can not kill it after one round of SR damage at +1 SpA, again because it is necessary to preserve the Z-move. Anyway, even though it's not an outright win-button versus stall, the moth doesn't even need that much support to get going properly, Stealth Rock + Toxic Gliscor for example, which is so common these days, makes a great partner for it.

Do I think Venomoth should move up though? Probably not. While having a favourable stall match-up is neat, sacrificing Sleep Powder for Roost versus offense is a great loss, therefore making it struggle to get more than one boost under its belt, which is necessary for both damage output and speed. And even with Sleep Powder, not even going into that moves accuracy issue here, Venomoth rarely ever completes a full sweep from my experience. Powerful priority options are everywhere in the tier, all good Scarfers outspeed and revenge kill it at +1 speed and it still offers next to no defensive value for any team it is on (the Roost set has some better applications in that regard, at least). So yeah, concluding, keep Venomoth were it is, definitely a cool sweeper with enough support but that sentiment is already well reflected with its current rank in C+.

E: Rank my boy Vileplume, cool 'mon indeed.
 
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dingbat

ban all garden sneks
is a Tiering Contributor
#73
New noms first then I’ll ride some bandwagons :>

Florges could probably drop to B- or C+. Calm Mind is most certainly not something I have come close to considering even on my balance oriented teams and on top of that, Togekiss, Sylveon, and Mega Altaria all heavily overshadow Florges in this current meta as durable Fairies in this tier. Oh, and I also would never ever run Defog Florges here

Jellicent should also drop to around C+, its utility as. stallbreaker definitely took a hit with Serp and Azu in this tier, both of which gives it issues as offensive mons and the latter which it competes with as a bulky water-type stallbreaker.

Venomoth isn’t B- caliber atm, it didn’t really get any better following the bl drops (didn’t get worse either). Keep in C+

Keep vileplume unranked i swatted that piece of shit annoying flower with a +2 knock off and i fucked it sideways real good and it couldn’t do anythhing about it ye fuck that thing couldn’t even kill my fat ass scizor with hidden prick fire reeeeeeeeeeeEEEEE *burp*

jk vileplume is good pkmn, I’d probably bump it up to C+ since it definitely has solid potential here

and finally, By thy power and might invested in my holy shitposts, I decree that Slowbro as utterly useless in the UnderUsed metagame and henceforth must be executed from the UnderUsed Viability Rankings D:< D:<

Roserade is pretty useless too I’d nuke
 
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#75
Slowbro: C to C+ (Possibly higher but I want to see how this goes)
At first glance not much has changed for Slowbro, but since Rotom-W got banned, Volt-turn, Slowbro's greatest enemy, lost their biggest key component, which severely damages Volt turn cores and will possibly die out in a few months. Bro no longer has to worry about that little bastard in the back switching in and being able to do nothing to it. Since the main factor to the success of VoltTurn has left, Slowbro has already been seemingly more effective. Also, it doesn't get eclipsed by Seismitoad as role of a bulky water, as it is now not viable thanks to the rise of Rotom-W in OU. It can set up and sweep more easily thanks to these factors.

Mamoswine: To A+??
I know this sounds crazy, but Mamoswine has gotten a lot better with the loss of Rotom-W. The Washing machine was arguably Mamoswine's biggest problem and now It doesn't have to run freeze dry anymore to avoid being walled by it or being afraid of getting burned because it isn't even in the tier anymore! Mamoswine can crush Stakataka and Dusk Lycanroc as well before they can even think about sweeping, and this will be a very important skill in the coming months. Also, Seismitoad being much less viable is great too, as it just couldn't do enough to it and Toad could just kill it with scald. I expect Mamoswine to be a greater threat than ever in UU thanks to these new tier changes.
 
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