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Unpopular opinions

I'd be way more willing to accept the "Team Plasma is misguided/hypocritical" angle if the game didn't stop to say "we gotta listen to people with different opinions, maaaan" fifty different times.

X and Y also loves this messaging, which is... misguided, to say the least, when they try to apply this lesson to Lysandre, who's a genocidal maniac who decidedly does not have a point. Black and White at least gestures at an ethical dilemma - and while I don't think it's perfectly handled, I can accept that this is a game for children, and I respect what the story accomplishes from that lens. X and Y's chronic centrism seriously rubs me the wrong way, especially considering recent geopolitical events. No, both sides do not always have a point - Team Flare wants to wipe out 99% of the human population and 100% of the Pokemon population, and usher in an age of the 1%. You can't write Lysandre as a proponent of fascist rhetoric (ugly people, make the world beautiful again, etc.) and then act as if he somehow had something good to offer the world.

Sycamore: "I always knew that he [Lysandre] desired a beautiful world... But what I really wanted was for him to put his ego aside and lead everything to greater heights. I never had this discussion with him, though. So I'm partially responsible for this."

Calem/Serena: "Lysandre chose only Team Flare. You and I chose everyone but Team Flare. But since our positions forced our hands, you can't really say any of us were right. So maybe... If both sides have something to say, it's best to meet halfway..."

Even KISEKI, the song in the end credits, otherwise one of my favorite setpieces in the series:

Search it out, and find the way:
the point where we can all meet.
The point where we're all the same.
There it lies: the future we seek.

Respecting other people's opinions is a valuable lesson to teach children, certainly. Yet when you construct a narrative where one side is represented by a bunch of genocidal lunatics who earnestly believe the world is fundamentally impure, and the other side is represented by people resisting against the notion of being killed en masse, that's an irresponsible message to start espousing! Lysandre can either be a tragic antihero with a point that we can take something from, or he can be an evil monster. You cannot write both. By comparison, N has a legitimate moral stake in the story, and is being actively manipulated by Ghetsis - his arc is all about overcoming that past abuse and seeing the world for himself. Lysandre has no arc because he's a megalomaniac - and that's a fine way to write a villain, but the narrative pretends after the fact that he was somehow just as good within as N was, and I can't respect that at all.

This also leads to the worst written dialogue in the entire series: Calem/Serena's battle at Victory Road. I already posted a snippet, but the full text is kinda necessary to understand what I mean:

Calem/Serena: "I've been thinking ever since that incident in Geosenge. Lysandre chose only Team Flare. You and I chose everyone but Team Flare. But since our positions forced our hands, you can't really say any of us were right. So maybe... If both sides have something to say, it's best to meet halfway... So I decided that from now on, I don't want to battle just to win but to see how you and your Pokémon think and feel! And that's the kind of Pokémon battle I'm challenging you to now!"

This is nonsense. Complete, utter nonsense. These points do not connect to one another at all. It's a non-sequitur leading into another non-sequitur. "Maybe the fascists had a point" -> "standard Pokemon friendship talk"???? Calem/Serena's arc in general is generally bad - an NPC learning that they're an NPC in a Pokemon game is funny, but also leads to them feeling completely aimless - but this is supposed to be the capstone of their arc! And yet they say absolutely nothing of substance. And after the battle:

Calem/Serena: "It's hard to put a finger on where, but I think you and I are alike. And that's why I didn't want to lose to you. But I think the reason we're alike is because we have so much in common. I'm really happy that we're friends."

"We're alike because we're alike" I mean, yeah.

(Yes, I know this is neither an unpopular opinion nor strictly related to Team Plasma. I just started typing. Oopsie.)
 
Respecting other people's opinions is a valuable lesson to teach children, certainly. Yet when you construct a narrative where one side is represented by a bunch of genocidal lunatics who earnestly believe the world is fundamentally impure, and the other side is represented by people resisting against the notion of being killed en masse, that's an irresponsible message to start espousing! Lysandre can either be a tragic antihero with a point that we can take something from, or he can be an evil monster. You cannot write both. By comparison, N has a legitimate moral stake in the story, and is being actively manipulated by Ghetsis - his arc is all about overcoming that past abuse and seeing the world for himself. Lysandre has no arc because he's a megalomaniac - and that's a fine way to write a villain, but the narrative pretends after the fact that he was somehow just as good within as N was, and I can't respect that at all.
Not disagreeing with the logic here, I think N is probably the most compelling part about BW's story, but I'm not sure I'd say his arc is about about abuse when it comes up and is resolved in the last 10 minutes of the game. The reveal doesn't frame his past actions in a more interesting way (unlike Lillie, for exemple) other than saying "I guess you never had to take him seriously lol"

If I were to write this story, I'd make N closer to the player character's age, being young, naive and full of convictions about how the world works. He'd start his journey at the same time as you (basically merging him, Cheren and Bianca into a single character) and he'd be very stubborn about making others see things his way. But through the course of the game, he meets different people and comes to understand that the world isn't as BLACK AND WHITE as he once thought.

Heck, maybe you could even keep Team Plasma in there as a group that worships the legendary dragons and wants to manipulate N into awakening them.
 
Not disagreeing with the logic here, I think N is probably the most compelling part about BW's story, but I'm not sure I'd say his arc is about about abuse when it comes up and is resolved in the last 10 minutes of the game. The reveal doesn't frame his past actions in a more interesting way (unlike Lillie, for exemple) other than saying "I guess you never had to take him seriously lol"

If I were to write this story, I'd make N closer to the player character's age, being young, naive and full of convictions about how the world works. He'd start his journey at the same time as you (basically merging him, Cheren and Bianca into a single character) and he'd be very stubborn about making others see things his way. But through the course of the game, he meets different people and comes to understand that the world isn't as BLACK AND WHITE as he once thought.

Heck, maybe you could even keep Team Plasma in there as a group that worships the legendary dragons and wants to manipulate N into awakening them.

I agree with N probably being the most interesting part of BW1's story in concept, but badly botched in execution for the reasons you cited. Your proposed execution is a good thought as well. The more I think of it, the more I think BW1's story is astoundingly overrated to me (my unpopular opinion).

If anything, it's just further evidence that Pokemon as a franchise is better off focusing on gameplay rather than story. By focusing on the latter, Pokemon produced a ridiculous result like Ghetsis pulling an "it was me all along" tired act at the end, just completely undercutting N's motives in the process.
 
X and Y also loves this messaging, which is... misguided, to say the least, when they try to apply this lesson to Lysandre, who's a genocidal maniac who decidedly does not have a point. Black and White at least gestures at an ethical dilemma - and while I don't think it's perfectly handled, I can accept that this is a game for children, and I respect what the story accomplishes from that lens. X and Y's chronic centrism seriously rubs me the wrong way, especially considering recent geopolitical events. No, both sides do not always have a point - Team Flare wants to wipe out 99% of the human population and 100% of the Pokemon population, and usher in an age of the 1%. You can't write Lysandre as a proponent of fascist rhetoric (ugly people, make the world beautiful again, etc.) and then act as if he somehow had something good to offer the world.





Even KISEKI, the song in the end credits, otherwise one of my favorite setpieces in the series:



Respecting other people's opinions is a valuable lesson to teach children, certainly. Yet when you construct a narrative where one side is represented by a bunch of genocidal lunatics who earnestly believe the world is fundamentally impure, and the other side is represented by people resisting against the notion of being killed en masse, that's an irresponsible message to start espousing! Lysandre can either be a tragic antihero with a point that we can take something from, or he can be an evil monster. You cannot write both. By comparison, N has a legitimate moral stake in the story, and is being actively manipulated by Ghetsis - his arc is all about overcoming that past abuse and seeing the world for himself. Lysandre has no arc because he's a megalomaniac - and that's a fine way to write a villain, but the narrative pretends after the fact that he was somehow just as good within as N was, and I can't respect that at all.

This also leads to the worst written dialogue in the entire series: Calem/Serena's battle at Victory Road. I already posted a snippet, but the full text is kinda necessary to understand what I mean:



This is nonsense. Complete, utter nonsense. These points do not connect to one another at all. It's a non-sequitur leading into another non-sequitur. "Maybe the fascists had a point" -> "standard Pokemon friendship talk"???? Calem/Serena's arc in general is generally bad - an NPC learning that they're an NPC in a Pokemon game is funny, but also leads to them feeling completely aimless - but this is supposed to be the capstone of their arc! And yet they say absolutely nothing of substance. And after the battle:



"We're alike because we're alike" I mean, yeah.

(Yes, I know this is neither an unpopular opinion nor strictly related to Team Plasma. I just started typing. Oopsie.)

Outside of the issue you highlighted, Calem/Serena's arc annoys me because the whole "my mum and dad are famous trainers so I should be good too! Oh, actually that's got nothing to do with me, I'm actually quite mid" idea is a compelling one on its own, but it sort of takes a backseat to them just trailing after the player. We never spend much/any time with their parents and they're not major figures in the region, so it just falls flat and doesn't really say much about them as people. Lots of characters have talented/notable parents - the protagonist in XY themselves does. But not all of them have that angst, so it's weird to bring it up as one of their motivations and then do so little with it.
 
The reveal doesn't frame his past actions in a more interesting way (unlike Lillie, for exemple) other than saying "I guess you never had to take him seriously lol"
Lillie child abuse isn't a "reveal", or at least in the way N does it.

N has no signs of being abused until the end of the game where Ghetsis is like "Yeah I never cared about you, you are just my propagandist dumbass lol"

In the first island of SM, the reason I defend it as not being "All tutorials" is because the game spells out a lot of these things extremely early. When you go to the clothes shop, she mentions that her Mother is very controlling of her appearance, which is one of the first signs that her relationship with her Mom is bad.

Then she remains wary of Aether, and when we see Lusamine and Gladion, we can make out a lot of it pretty clearly far before the game spells it out.

The reason I said earlier that I think N isn't a good character is that his job is to be thought provoking and Ben-Shapiro(adjective)-the player, but the player doesn't really get much say + he doesn't give any real evidence.

In fact the game never gives an example for why Pokemon shouldn't be caught by humans. The first time you meet N he says "You are special or something, your Pokemon like you", which two things:

1. We just got it lol

2. IIRC canonically this is very soon after he starts his own journey, as a parallel.

Thus, since he was so sheltered and propagandized- we are one of the first non-Plasma people he actually talks to.

It is at this point that N should logically have even the slightest back and forth thought about why he believes what he does. Shit, maybe the several heart-to-hearts he has with the player should be about how maybe he is wrong.

Instead, he just continues believing it with no example and is only shaken when the game is like "Oh yeah he was abused that's why he believes this," which ALSO destroys the entire point of making a plot about this subject tbh.

I'm not someone who thinks Pokemon training should be immoral in the universe, but if you're gonna tackle the topic then you should actually have a real conversation about it in the game, even if it ends with agreeing with the status quo of the franchise. But we don't get any argument, or anything, and yet the lyrics to the anime's intro in the West is "It's not all Black and White"

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THIS ENTIRE PLOT IS BLACK AND WHITE
 
I agree with N probably being the most interesting part of BW1's story in concept, but badly botched in execution for the reasons you cited. Your proposed execution is a good thought as well. The more I think of it, the more I think BW1's story is astoundingly overrated to me (my unpopular opinion).

If anything, it's just further evidence that Pokemon as a franchise is better off focusing on gameplay rather than story. By focusing on the latter, Pokemon produced a ridiculous result like Ghetsis pulling an "it was me all along" tired act at the end, just completely undercutting N's motives in the process.

I lost it at
the photoshopped Cyrus face on Lysandre

I feel Pokemon has a chance of decent villains if they bother actually having the player engaged. The ScVio DLCs actually surprised me with the char being an actual char as opposed to >just stares as Lillie talks all over you. The "the world is imperfect" schtick seriously got old, and negatively reminds me how ORAS rewrote Archie/Macie to deliberately want to nuke the world instead of just simply being stupid. Not that OG RS was good for the villains, but it says a lot

The other issue, fighting the enemy team very rarely has a difference to fighting a random trainer. They don't do anything underhanded besides Protect/Double Team spam I guess. Like, imagine if Cursed Lusamine was a boss with 6 "moves" that you gang up on, and then in its final stretches it summons backup monsters while it recooperates. Would've been way more interesting than...well this

Screenshot_20241231_140506.jpg


Like the Totem esque stat boost is fine, but it's still just singles, with the mons being fairly typical. The fact they can't even ZMove is sad

The Raids battles and Eternemax/Star Revaroom in recent Gens seems like they're testing waters at least...

Lusamine herself unfortunately was retconned from being fully bad with USUM/Anime/Masters, so I feel the complaint of the NPC being way too complicit to Lysandre is partially related. They don't want truly bad just for bad villains. Volo seems to be an exception, but then they just fucking did what the meme vid I just posted showed. And then Rose and Sada/Turo are silly, though at the least the latter is remotely interesting...if not for the disappointing Terapagos part

I dunno, I feel just going "they should only focus on gameplay only" when they still bungle that or are too repitive for mon archetypes doesn't help. They seem....scared
 
i think the failures of bw are because they didnt want to concede a single inch to the argument of owning and battling with pokemon is immoral, rather it felt more like a game made to completely beat down the argument by attaching it to the worst kind of people morals wise. which then brings the point: why make a fucking game about it then lmao. the only people who actually took "pokemon is cockfighting" seriously were 50 year olds, edgelords who still played and interacted with games and... peta. who made a parody of it FOR bw, the game trying to clear the franchise of those accusations.
 
X and Y also loves this messaging, which is... misguided, to say the least, when they try to apply this lesson to Lysandre, who's a genocidal maniac who decidedly does not have a point. Black and White at least gestures at an ethical dilemma - and while I don't think it's perfectly handled, I can accept that this is a game for children, and I respect what the story accomplishes from that lens. X and Y's chronic centrism seriously rubs me the wrong way, especially considering recent geopolitical events. No, both sides do not always have a point - Team Flare wants to wipe out 99% of the human population and 100% of the Pokemon population, and usher in an age of the 1%. You can't write Lysandre as a proponent of fascist rhetoric (ugly people, make the world beautiful again, etc.) and then act as if he somehow had something good to offer the world.





Even KISEKI, the song in the end credits, otherwise one of my favorite setpieces in the series:



Respecting other people's opinions is a valuable lesson to teach children, certainly. Yet when you construct a narrative where one side is represented by a bunch of genocidal lunatics who earnestly believe the world is fundamentally impure, and the other side is represented by people resisting against the notion of being killed en masse, that's an irresponsible message to start espousing! Lysandre can either be a tragic antihero with a point that we can take something from, or he can be an evil monster. You cannot write both. By comparison, N has a legitimate moral stake in the story, and is being actively manipulated by Ghetsis - his arc is all about overcoming that past abuse and seeing the world for himself. Lysandre has no arc because he's a megalomaniac - and that's a fine way to write a villain, but the narrative pretends after the fact that he was somehow just as good within as N was, and I can't respect that at all.

This also leads to the worst written dialogue in the entire series: Calem/Serena's battle at Victory Road. I already posted a snippet, but the full text is kinda necessary to understand what I mean:



This is nonsense. Complete, utter nonsense. These points do not connect to one another at all. It's a non-sequitur leading into another non-sequitur. "Maybe the fascists had a point" -> "standard Pokemon friendship talk"???? Calem/Serena's arc in general is generally bad - an NPC learning that they're an NPC in a Pokemon game is funny, but also leads to them feeling completely aimless - but this is supposed to be the capstone of their arc! And yet they say absolutely nothing of substance. And after the battle:



"We're alike because we're alike" I mean, yeah.

(Yes, I know this is neither an unpopular opinion nor strictly related to Team Plasma. I just started typing. Oopsie.)
A lot of what you say is just straight up facts, and the material you reference has bothered me for a while. Nonsense is right, and I have no intent of justifying that material.* However, this view is also missing some context, some other XY material that actually says something worthwhile. As a narrative piece, Lysandre does have points, and points I find compelling, at least by Pokemon standards. I'm going to sketch out the case for "XY has a real and decent narrative". The narrative, when I conveniently forget the junk, goes like this:

*Edit: From running through this analysis, while I still agree that a lot of the material you described is nonsense, I think I can get closer to understanding what caused these mistakes to happen. There are a couple bits of it I think make sense in context of the bigger XY narrative I construct, and I include a couple here.

1) Someone can have passion and good intents but still fall into the wrong beliefs. Lysandre's idea of beauty is sloppy. The future catastrophe he crows about is just one possibility, and not the current reality. Nobody is perfectly mature, smart, or moral.

Diantha (Café Soleil): "What a strange question... Why would I want to play the same old roles forever? Youth may be beautiful, but it's not all there is to life. Everything changes. I want to live and change like that, too. So I look forward to playing different roles as I get older."
Sycamore (Couriway Town): "And maybe someday the population of people and Pokémon will actually increase to where resources become very scarce. If someone acts out of greed in such a world, surely some will go without. If all living things keep acting that way, there will be nothing left at all in the end. Why, there won't even be anything left to steal, will there?"
Lysandre (Lysandre Café): "Kalos is beautiful right now! There will be no foolish actions if the number of people and Pokémon do not increase. That being said, the future isn't decided. You can't be sure each day will be like the one before."

2) A risk is someone believes only they are able or worthy to advance the cause they're passionate about. Instead of working alongside other people and listening to them, like a leader, they try and solve everything on their own. When they fail, they may just keep hammering on alone instead of seeking help.

This is bad, in part because other people can point out things you don't know, problems in your beliefs. No one person is smart enough, or whatever, to solve everything.


Lysandre (Lysandre Labs): I tried to save people--and the world--with the profit from this lab. But my efforts had no effect... The world was just too vast...and too full of fools that I couldn't save through my hard work alone. That's why I decided the only way to save the world was to take it all for myself.

Lysandre (Team Flare Secret HQ): "So THIS is the mighty (Xerneas / Yveltal)?! I expected more from a Pokémon called a legend! You desire help from people? YOU need help from a human?

Calem / Serena (Team Flare Secret HQ): "You don't have to worry about the future all alone... Shouldn't everyone work together to make a beautiful world?"
Calem / Serena (Victory Road): So I decided that from now on, I don't want to battle just to win but to see how you and your Pokémon think and feel!

(See also the Diantha quote, and Sycamore lamenting he didn't talk with Lysandre.)

3) When you think you can solve everything on your own, instead of listening to other people, you're being egotistical.

If you always refuse to put aside your ego and listen, your actions reveal that your ego is actually what is most important to you, not your stated beliefs.


Sycamore (Couriway Town): "But what I really wanted was for [Lysandre] to put his ego aside and lead everything to greater heights."

4) As you continue to prioritize your ego over everything else, you become the villain. You become entitled and surround yourself with flunkies for validation. You abandon your past beliefs, destroy what you used to care about, and become like those you despise.

Lysandre (Lysandre Labs): "I tried to save people--and the world--with the profit from this lab. But my efforts had no effect... The world was just too vast...and too full of fools that I couldn't save through my hard work alone. That's why I decided the only way to save the world was to take it all for myself."

Compare this to earlier, at Lysandre Cafe:

"I want to be the kind of person who gives... But in this world, some foolish humans exist who would show their strength by taking what isn't theirs.""They're filth!"

""Long, long ago, the king of Kalos sought to take everything for his own, and he created a terrible weapon."


(Lysandre is happy that the weapon cleaned that era's filth, but he frames this as a fortunate coincidence that came from a selfish-minded king, not a good king who made a necessary judgment call. He also he claims Kalos is not like that now, not requiring "foolish actions".

Only as he descends into ego does he believe Kalos is guaranteed to get worse and/or unsustainable right now, ignoring the possibility that things get better in the future. See his late-game dialogue for this.)

5) There's no good endgame to pursuing ego over all else. You can get defeated by opponents, but even when you succeed, you become a pitiful, disrespected soul who makes massive sacrifices for nothing worthwhile. However, maybe failure can allow you to realize what really matters.

Sycamore (Couriway Town): "And by stopping Team Flare, you also saved Lysandre. I always knew that he desired a beautiful world..."

Lysandre (Team Flare Secret HQ): "Pokémon... Shall no longer exist. Pokémon are wonderful beings. Humans have worked with Pokémon, and we have helped each other flourish. But precisely because of that, they will inevitably become tools for war and theft!"

(I'm struggling to find the quotes for this, but Team Flare members repeatedly diss / disobey Lysandre, clearly not caring for any altruism he may have had.)
 
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The other issue, fighting the enemy team very rarely has a difference to fighting a random trainer. They don't do anything underhanded besides Protect/Double Team spam I guess. Like, imagine if Cursed Lusamine was a boss with 6 "moves" that you gang up on, and then in its final stretches it summons backup monsters while it recooperates. Would've been way more interesting than...well this
ORAS did a horde battle with the Grunts, but A, Horde battles suck, and B, they were still really bad at it.

GF just really doesn't want to do anything "unfair" against the player. Even battles like the AI professor don't use the field effect that would boost their pokemon and we don't see ourselves outnumbered even the way the Kimono Girls/Winstrates used to outnumber the player. Totem battles were the only actual "this enemy is better than you" moment I think we've seen in outside of optional content, which is why I think those are more fondly remembered than a lot of gyms.
 
i think the failures of bw are because they didnt want to concede a single inch to the argument of owning and battling with pokemon is immoral, rather it felt more like a game made to completely beat down the argument by attaching it to the worst kind of people morals wise. which then brings the point: why make a fucking game about it then lmao. the only people who actually took "pokemon is cockfighting" seriously were 50 year olds, edgelords who still played and interacted with games and... peta. who made a parody of it FOR bw, the game trying to clear the franchise of those accusations.
Yeah this is p much what I feel but more succinctly said, ty
 
Outside of the issue you highlighted, Calem/Serena's arc annoys me because the whole "my mum and dad are famous trainers so I should be good too! Oh, actually that's got nothing to do with me, I'm actually quite mid" idea is a compelling one on its own, but it sort of takes a backseat to them just trailing after the player. We never spend much/any time with their parents and they're not major figures in the region, so it just falls flat and doesn't really say much about them as people. Lots of characters have talented/notable parents - the protagonist in XY themselves does. But not all of them have that angst, so it's weird to bring it up as one of their motivations and then do so little with it.
I don't think this is fully informed on their arc. From what I remember of the game and looking through their quotes, their parents being part of their motivation is, in a direct sense, minimal.

I read their arc as an "early bloomer" arc. They get a head-start on battling, whether through their parents or whatever else, and become the early guide and leader for everyone else (e.g. catch tutorial, adventure rules). Because they're the best at that early stage, they think they're destined to stay being the best and become elite. However, they face an extended reality check as the player keeps beating them across the game. They realize that, not only did they underestimate you, but they don't have the chops to be the best, and have to cope with that. As Just A Seaking said more succinctly, they realize they're an NPC, and not the main character at a societal level.

What they realize is that they don't need to be the best to be special and relevant and impactful. They are special by being a person that exists. They are the main character of their own life. Instead of feeling a need to force themselves into relevance by winning everything, they can just exist as a person, working with other people and finding common ground instead of setting themselves apart.

In this sense, they're a mini foil to Lysandre (see my post above). They both start grappling with good-hearted desires and ego. Lysandre fails to do everything on his own but still chooses ego, Calem / Serena similarly fail but choose forming connections with other people instead.

I didn't really get this Diantha quote at first, but after going through Lysandre and Serena / Calem, I think I'm starting to fit it in.

Diantha (Coumarine City): "Bonds... They really are important to us all, aren't they? When I'm acting, I think I'm always trying to forge a bond between myself and the character I'm playing. If all I think about is how I'm nothing like a character (read: someone else, e.g. due to thinking you're better than them), then I'll just hate playing it (read: working alongside them). But if I focus on what I have in common with the character and put myself in her shoes, I might be able to understand her. It's the same for people--or Pokémon."
 
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Like the Totem esque stat boost is fine, but it's still just singles, with the mons being fairly typical. The fact they can't even ZMove is sad

The Raids battles and Eternemax/Star Revaroom in recent Gens seems like they're testing waters at least...

Lusamine herself unfortunately was retconned from being fully bad with USUM/Anime/Masters, so I feel the complaint of the NPC being way too complicit to Lysandre is partially related. They don't want truly bad just for bad villains. Volo seems to be an exception, but then they just fucking did what the meme vid I just posted showed. And then Rose and Sada/Turo are silly, though at the least the latter is remotely interesting...if not for the disappointing Terapagos part

I dunno, I feel just going "they should only focus on gameplay only" when they still bungle that or are too repitive for mon archetypes doesn't help. They seem....scared
They didn't do that because they didn't (and still don't barring Eternamax) put creatures in the game that you can fight in normal battles but not have, and they were right to do so. (The Starmobiles aren't actually Pokemon internally.)
the Kimono Girls
The Kimono Girls never outnumbered you, you weren't required to fight them all in a row.
 
This is a take I've passingly mentioned before and have kept to myself since the teraleak because complaining about XY's story in [current year] is second only to Star Wars sequel trilogy discourse in the sport of dead horse beating, but that's what we've decided to do now so might as well: XY's story is so bad that it's a very large part of why I'm not that torn up about not getting Z relative to many others. You know what a Z Version would've probably done? It would've most likely added a scene or two of Lysandre speaking publicly and souped up the climax with Zygarde helping to BTFO him even harder. For the reasons Just a Seaking and many others have sketched out, this would've been majorly insufficient (frankly it wasn't enough in Platinum either to elevate the Team Galactic plot above mediocre but that's a whole different discussion). A story with an outright dangerous moral, a villain who doesn't work in the Pokemon setting and a cast composed almost entirely of charisma black holes like the player's friends and the Flare scientists is one that requires a major set of rewrites, whole scenes and potentially characters being junked and replaced (see Calem/Serena's laughable Victory Road monologue). SWSH feels way more like the "potential man" Pokemon plot to me: The baseline aesthetic and story structure of a flashy sports anime filled with colorful contestants and the running theme of a new generation taking over is great and just needed another draft or two to really get over the hump. XY, on the other hand, is just broken at its core, and now we can't even cope that more dev time would've fixed it because the Teraleak had nothing of substance in regards to scrapped story ideas.

The best "fix" for XY's story as far as I'm concerned is to take what good characters, themes and iconography it has, burn everything else to the ground and then plop the survivors into a whole new storyline written from scratch. Legends Z-A might, just might do exactly this, and I'd be very happy if so.
 
This is a take I've passingly mentioned before and have kept to myself since the teraleak because complaining about XY's story in [current year] is second only to Star Wars sequel trilogy discourse in the sport of dead horse beating, but that's what we've decided to do now so might as well: XY's story is so bad that it's a very large part of why I'm not that torn up about not getting Z relative to many others. You know what a Z Version would've probably done? It would've most likely added a scene or two of Lysandre speaking publicly and souped up the climax with Zygarde helping to BTFO him even harder. For the reasons Just a Seaking and many others have sketched out, this would've been majorly insufficient (frankly it wasn't enough in Platinum either to elevate the Team Galactic plot above mediocre but that's a whole different discussion). A story with an outright dangerous moral, a villain who doesn't work in the Pokemon setting and a cast composed almost entirely of charisma black holes like the player's friends and the Flare scientists is one that requires a major set of rewrites, whole scenes and potentially characters being junked and replaced (see Calem/Serena's laughable Victory Road monologue). SWSH feels way more like the "potential man" Pokemon plot to me: The baseline aesthetic and story structure of a flashy sports anime filled with colorful contestants and the running theme of a new generation taking over is great and just needed another draft or two to really get over the hump. XY, on the other hand, is just broken at its core, and now we can't even cope that more dev time would've fixed it because the Teraleak had nothing of substance in regards to scrapped story ideas.

The best "fix" for XY's story as far as I'm concerned is to take what good characters, themes and iconography it has, burn everything else to the ground and then plop the survivors into a whole new storyline written from scratch. Legends Z-A might, just might do exactly this, and I'd be very happy if so.
It's funny how skewered XY's story is that in order for it to be good it would need to be completely wiped. I'm talking Pressing Y+X and the start button (I'm pretty sure that is the game reset combination).
Like as you said earlier, SWSH story ON PAPER could've been fixed. Make chairman rose plan not consist of him ruining everything for something that wouldn't happen for 1k years. Have bede and marnie appear for more than 25 minutes. Those 2 things would not make swsh a slog to play.
Oh yea, and also buff the enemy trainers to not fold to dynamax. Come on, how did we go to alola boss design to, whatever kusoge the galar gym challenge cooks up.
Even then, asking for difficulty in mainline pokemon is squeezing a rock until water comes out.
But with XY's story... what do you do? Lysandre's motive is kusoge from the start and besides, he's basically advocating on razing in what is the most peaceful nintendo universes of all time!
Not to mention the worthless excuses of rivals you have to beat. Complaining about the lame XY rivals is like complaining about the USA corrupt politicians, but I still cannot fathom how they wrote and directed these 4 bozos and thought, yeah, this is good. Come on!
I started my first xy run in April and I just got bored. Last time I touched it I defeated Valerie. Hmmm... I wonder why??!
As for potential XY complete rewrites, I don't even know. Even replacing lysandre entirely with Aklove from pokemon unbound, a villian who aims to destroy the world because iirc his kids died to evil would be more palatable to the lion maned bum.
Still a shit villian but better than lysandre
 
This is a take I've passingly mentioned before and have kept to myself since the teraleak because complaining about XY's story in [current year] is second only to Star Wars sequel trilogy discourse in the sport of dead horse beating, but that's what we've decided to do now so might as well: XY's story is so bad that it's a very large part of why I'm not that torn up about not getting Z relative to many others. You know what a Z Version would've probably done? It would've most likely added a scene or two of Lysandre speaking publicly and souped up the climax with Zygarde helping to BTFO him even harder. For the reasons Just a Seaking and many others have sketched out, this would've been majorly insufficient (frankly it wasn't enough in Platinum either to elevate the Team Galactic plot above mediocre but that's a whole different discussion). A story with an outright dangerous moral, a villain who doesn't work in the Pokemon setting and a cast composed almost entirely of charisma black holes like the player's friends and the Flare scientists is one that requires a major set of rewrites, whole scenes and potentially characters being junked and replaced (see Calem/Serena's laughable Victory Road monologue). SWSH feels way more like the "potential man" Pokemon plot to me: The baseline aesthetic and story structure of a flashy sports anime filled with colorful contestants and the running theme of a new generation taking over is great and just needed another draft or two to really get over the hump. XY, on the other hand, is just broken at its core, and now we can't even cope that more dev time would've fixed it because the Teraleak had nothing of substance in regards to scrapped story ideas.

The best "fix" for XY's story as far as I'm concerned is to take what good characters, themes and iconography it has, burn everything else to the ground and then plop the survivors into a whole new storyline written from scratch. Legends Z-A might, just might do exactly this, and I'd be very happy if so.
I don't know. I think a lot of this post is about relatively surface level, aesthetic stuff, which matters but doesn't create the fundamental rot you imply. A Zygarde scene makes sense because it's cool, but I don't think it's needed narratively. Same on both fronts for the L man getting more action. Lysandre has most everything about him fleshed out well (by Pokemon standards) already, and the legendaries just don't really matter for this story, being macguffins.

Therefore, "these changes aren't sufficient to fix XY's issues" is like, well, yeah, that's true, they don't. But they don't because these changes don't address XY's narrative issues.

Aside from stuff that is endemic to Pokemon in general, I think XY's unique narrative issues are not that pervasive. To me, its main issue is this. It sometimes understands what it means to "listen to people" in a healthy way, and sometimes it doesn't. I think the incorrect understandings can be removed pretty easily by correcting a handful of dialogue paragraphs.

I'm going to try and correct some flawed dialogue examples that Just A Seaking brought up. These corrections are not just better on their own merits, but faithful to the XY narrative I lined out earlier.
_________

Past Quote:
Sycamore: "I always knew that he [Lysandre] desired a beautiful world... But what I really wanted was for him to put his ego aside and lead everything to greater heights. I never had this discussion with him, though. So I'm partially responsible for this."

I don't think this quote is outright bad, but its clarity could be improved. One can interpret it as framing Lysandre's desire for a beautiful world as an untarnished positive, countered by the negative of his ego, which I think is a totally fair read. By this interpretation, the quote sends a bad message (as Just A Seaking said), conflicts oddly with Diantha's great lines about beauty, and is a bit intellectually immature. I'll fix this up and use the chance to clarify and expound on XY's themes at large in a contextually relevant way.

Improved:
Sycamore: "I always knew that he [Lysandre] desired a beautiful world... But when he had to choose between a beautiful world and his ego, he couldn't put his ego aside. I thought his beliefs were stronger than that...
Maybe they were, a long time ago. I wanted to see his answer to the evils of our world. I listened to him. But he didn't listen to me. He didn't listen to anyone. He cared more about his idea of beauty than anyone else, so he cared more about himself than anyone else.
Actually, that's not true. He did listen to me, once. He asked me how to preserve beauty in the world, and I told him to find his own answer and put it into action. But I misled him. He didn't know that beauty is created by seeing new things, not preserved by seeing old things. Therefore, he could never learn to appreciate the differences between people. I never had this discussion with him, though. So I'm partially responsible for this.
I don't know if he'd listen to me now. But maybe you taught him that he was wrong, and maybe he will listen. I hope the day comes when you and Lysandre can work together to create a more beautiful world."

I like words.

Past Quote:
Calem / Serena: "I've been thinking ever since that incident in Geosenge. Lysandre chose only Team Flare. You and I chose everyone but Team Flare. But since our positions forced our hands, you can't really say any of us were right. So maybe... If both sides have something to say, it's best to meet halfway... So I decided that from now on, I don't want to battle just to win but to see how you and your Pokémon think and feel! And that's the kind of Pokémon battle I'm challenging you to now!"
As we've beat into the ground, it kind of sucks to say the dictator murderer guy wasn't wrong, and that we should meet him halfway! However, I think there's a grain of something worth preserving in this. I'll also expand on Calem / Serena and Lysandre as foils.

Improved:
Calem / Serena: "I've been thinking ever since that incident in Geosenge. I wasn't the best trainer, but we still defeated Lysandre. Maybe if Lysandre realized he wasn't the best leader, we would've avoided all this destruction. Maybe if I never realized that I wasn't the best trainer, then...
I have a question for you, <player>. I want to understand what makes people and Pokemon special. Do you think Lysandre has anything special about him? Do you think we should listen to what he says?"

If Yes: "I think you're right. He was able to achieve a lot on his own. We have a lot of work to do, because we can't let the future that Lysandre talks about become real. We need to work to understand others, so we don't fall in the same trap as him.
I've talked enough about the past. Now, I want to understand you. How your Pokemon think and feel! Show me how special you are!

If No: "I'm not sure I agree. Even if his goals were wrong, he was able to achieve a lot on his own. Still, I want to learn why you think that way. Do you think he is lying? Have you already understood him enough? Or do you think that no one is special?
Actually, I have a better idea. Instead of telling me how you think and feel, show me with a battle!

I had to walk a fine line here between writing a pre-teen character with a set arc and personality versus writing commentary. I think Calem / Serena would say Yes to this question, but I don't want to paint that as the one correct position.

_________
Also, Lysandre and his cronies being uncharismatic is part of the point. They are losers, because in XY's narrative, that's what chasing ego forever turns you into. They share this trait because if you value ego over all, and so does someone else, you two end up becoming similar in the end, even if you had different starting points and values. If you'd rather a charismatic antagonist, that is a fine preference, but it doesn't mean XY's choice is an incorrect one narratively.

As a side note, maybe I should try re-writing a much larger portion of a character's dialogue or game's dialogue sometime. This was a fun exercise, and it shows how much potential Pokemon narratives can have.
 
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I don't think this is fully informed on their arc. From what I remember of the game and looking through their quotes, their parents being part of their motivation is, in a direct sense, minimal.

I read their arc as an "early bloomer" arc. They get a head-start on battling, whether through their parents or whatever else, and become the early guide and leader for everyone else (e.g. catch tutorial, adventure rules). Because they're the best at that early stage, they think they're destined to stay being the best and become elite. However, they face an extended reality check as the player keeps beating them across the game. They realize that, not only did they underestimate you, but they don't have the chops to be the best, and have to cope with that. As Just A Seaking said more succinctly, they realize they're an NPC, and not the main character at a societal level.

What they realize is that they don't need to be the best to be special and relevant and impactful. They are special by being a person that exists. They are the main character of their own life. Instead of feeling a need to force themselves into relevance by winning everything, they can just exist as a person, working with other people and finding common ground instead of setting themselves apart.

In this sense, they're a mini foil to Lysandre (see my post above). They both start grappling with good-hearted desires and ego. Lysandre fails to do everything on his own but still chooses ego, Calem / Serena similarly fail but choose forming connections with other people instead.

I didn't really get this Diantha quote at first, but after going through Lysandre and Serena / Calem, I think I'm starting to fit it in.

Diantha (Coumarine City): "Bonds... They really are important to us all, aren't they? When I'm acting, I think I'm always trying to forge a bond between myself and the character I'm playing. If all I think about is how I'm nothing like a character (read: someone else, e.g. due to thinking you're better than them), then I'll just hate playing it (read: working alongside them). But if I focus on what I have in common with the character and put myself in her shoes, I might be able to understand her. It's the same for people--or Pokémon."

But that's kind of my point, that it doesn't inform their arc much. The whole idea of them realising that they're an NPC is cool, and is played pretty well with them failing to win the Mega Ring and accepting that the player will be the one to master Mega Evolution, though I found the way they just get one anyway in the postgame to be quite underwhelming.

But the angle of their parents is interesting - my complaint is that it could have been played up to a greater extent (to the point of being an arc on its own). It's not mentioned terribly often but it is one of the earliest things we learn about them, so I kind of expected that it'd come to the fore as the story went on. As it is it's more of an incidental detail, and it could have been excised in its entirety with no effect. If the rival was just already a competent trainer (as we're told May/Brendan is in RSE) the overall arc doesn't change.


The Kimono Girls never outnumbered you, you weren't required to fight them all in a row.

Um, yes you were.
 
Not disagreeing with the logic here, I think N is probably the most compelling part about BW's story, but I'm not sure I'd say his arc is about about abuse when it comes up and is resolved in the last 10 minutes of the game. The reveal doesn't frame his past actions in a more interesting way (unlike Lillie, for exemple) other than saying "I guess you never had to take him seriously lol"
N is meant to represent Pokemon. He comes from the wild, a place of naivety. Ghetsis brings him into the human world, civilizes him, and gives him a purpose. N has good intentions in his heart but is misled by Ghetsis.

The abuse is not meant to be perceived in and of itself but as manipulation.
If I were to write this story, I'd make N closer to the player character's age, being young, naive and full of convictions about how the world works. He'd start his journey at the same time as you (basically merging him, Cheren and Bianca into a single character) and he'd be very stubborn about making others see things his way. But through the course of the game, he meets different people and comes to understand that the world isn't as BLACK AND WHITE as he once thought.

Have you ever played B2/W2? That’s literally the rival. Except they take it a step further, because its discussed in the context of forgiving.

I’m really confused about what this adds to the story, other than make a much more on the nose theme of “listening to others.” Did you not understand Bianca and Cheren’s role in the story too?
Heck, maybe you could even keep Team Plasma in there as a group that worships the legendary dragons and wants to manipulate N into awakening them.
Yeah sure, let’s make the villains lose any personality they had
 
From how I read XY's story

Tl;dr: Lysandre thought the world was overpopulated and was suffering the effects of such (like people fighting each other for limited resources or stealing from one another). I believe that's what the NPCs trying to claim he had a point where referencing.

He thought this behavior was ugly on the world and his idea of beauty was to reduce the world's population in order to create a big enough resources to people ratio for people to no longer fight among each other, steal limited resources, or even have to share materials. This is made somewhat explicit during the climax. Additionally, there was a backstory saying he tried to help others but got taken advantage of in return, and this is where he got his enragement towards humanity as a whole. Sycamore sees where Lysandre got the point in claiming the world was overpopulated, but suggested he could've tried using his role to develop more resources instead of eliminating other people. What Lysandre actually did is a typical villain route to carry and I find it works because it ties to a major backstory that's somewhat deep for a Pokémon game, then connects said backstory with the mysteries of Mega Evolution and the roles of the Legendary Pokémon on the front of the cover, which are what the Pokémon games are about.

I believe X and Y had a lot of fluff but the general premise of Team Flare and their visions were rather simple. Nothing as deep as what many are trying to make it out to be. I believe the reason Lysandre chose to keep Team Flare is because when you have a mass murder weapon that you're planning to use on a global scale, you can only really defend those near you, and Lysandre isn't necessarily Thanos. He couldn't just wipe random selections of the world out of existence. He wanted it to be hard to fit in since his vision was to reduce the world's population by a significant extent, so he charged 5 million Pokedollars to enter.

Ironically enough Lysandre was trying to stabilize the sustainability of populations in a way he saw fit when this was precisely the goal of Xerneas/Yveltal/Zygarde. He tried to play them, to play gods, with a weapon that channeled their energy, only for said gods to suddenly break out of the machine upon waking up then dunk on him.

Idk I just have this placed down to provide my own insight on major parts of XY's story
 
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Literally every major character in BW comes to realise that the world isn't as black & white as they thought. It's quite literally the defining theme of that story.
I will say I can maybe see your point for this on Cheren/Bianca, to an extent- though I have problems with their arcs as well, and even think the messaging for Bianca and Cheren is actually Bleh, but as for like, the main plot? And main theme of the game, where the protagonists have the Black and White dragon legends for a fight of ideas?

The premise is literally black and white though.

There is zero reason for any character in the plot to believe that Pokemon training is wrong, outside of the character who was abused (and that is why he thinks it's wrong).

Every trainer, NPC, thing in the game outside of Team Plasma (who are supposed to be the argument for the opposing side) has an at least on the surface good relationship with Pokemon, don't abuse them, and nothing is shown for any struggle.

The Plot. Is Black and White.
 
I will say I can maybe see your point for this on Cheren/Bianca, to an extent- though I have problems with their arcs as well, and even think the messaging for Bianca and Cheren is actually Bleh, but as for like, the main plot? And main theme of the game, where the protagonists have the Black and White dragon legends for a fight of ideas?

The premise is literally black and white though.

There is zero reason for any character in the plot to believe that Pokemon training is wrong, outside of the character who was abused (and that is why he thinks it's wrong).

Every trainer, NPC, thing in the game outside of Team Plasma (who are supposed to be the argument for the opposing side) has an at least on the surface good relationship with Pokemon, don't abuse them, and nothing is shown for any struggle.

The Plot. Is Black and White.
I wanna add onto this that outside of Sun and Moon and a bit of SV: the Pokemon universe, anime, even usually the manga, the games, anything but the spinoffs really; they aren't really allowed to have a systemic issue in the verse.

Team Aqua and Magma bring up an issue that doesn't exist and they're wrong for trying to "fix" nothing, solve their problem, they realize the errors of their ways, we move on.

Team Rocket, despite many people thinking of them as a more realistic gang, is anything but. Almost all of their dialogue shows greed rather than struggle, very rarely is any member obviously in it for any reason that makes good sense. They are just greedy people who misuse Pokemon, often for power or money, while real world gangs are often spawned from poverty/struggle.

Team Galactic is literally just nihilist leader man.

Team Plasma, as previously said, is just entirely wrong. Any acts of abuse are individuals, not systemic, the systems are not wrong.

Team Flare, Lysandre is just. I don't even really know, y'all be talking about it, but nothing of the issues he has are actually real.

Sun and Moon is the only game where a systemic problem is real: Team Skull, despite being read by many as comedic relief, is more realistic than Team Rocket because members join it because they feel like they have been left behind by society. The Island Trial system isn't very inclusive and often isn't good for the psyche, alongside that many of them were abused by people, which shows not just as individuals but a systemic problem. People being disenfranchised -> Joining a group with charismatic leader is a realistic problem.

Rose brings up a systemic problem (the problem with energy) but then the ending of the game is "No, stop interrupting the sports match, this isn't a problem that actually matters". And he's punished for it lol

Legends Arceus is based on a place and time with very real conflicts and has none of that, it's practically Team Sports Colonizer Edition

And finally, Scarlet/Violet tries to do one with the bullying epidemic, so I'll give it points to that for Penny's arc, but that's kinda it. Everything else is individuals.
 
From how I read XY's story

Tl;dr: Lysandre thought the world was overpopulated and was suffering the effects of such (like people fighting each other for limited resources or stealing from one another). I believe that's what the NPCs trying to claim he had a point where referencing.

He thought this behavior was ugly on the world and his idea of beauty was to reduce the world's population in order to create a big enough resources to people ratio for people to no longer fight among each other, steal limited resources, or even have to share materials. This is made somewhat explicit during the climax. Additionally, there was a backstory saying he tried to help others but got taken advantage of in return, and this is where he got his enragement towards humanity as a whole. Sycamore sees where Lysandre got the point in claiming the world was overpopulated, but suggested he could've tried using his role to develop more resources instead of eliminating other people. What Lysandre actually did is a typical villain route to carry and I find it works because it ties to a major backstory that's somewhat deep for a Pokémon game, then connects said backstory with the mysteries of Mega Evolution and the roles of the Legendary Pokémon on the front of the cover, which are what the Pokémon games are about.

I believe X and Y had a lot of fluff but the general premise of Team Flare and their visions were rather simple. Nothing as deep as what many are trying to make it out to be. I believe the reason Lysandre chose to keep Team Flare is because when you have a mass murder weapon that you're planning to use on a global scale, you can only really defend those near you, and Lysandre isn't necessarily Thanos. He couldn't just wipe random selections of the world out of existence. He wanted it to be hard to fit in since his vision was to reduce the world's population by a significant extent, so he charged 5 million Pokedollars to enter.

Ironically enough Lysandre was trying to stabilize the sustainability of populations in a way he saw fit when this was precisely the goal of Xerneas/Yveltal/Zygarde. He tried to play them, to play gods, with a weapon that channeled their energy, only for said gods to suddenly break out of the machine upon waking up then dunk on him.

Idk I just have this placed down to provide my own insight on major parts of XY's story
Instead of engaging with the interpretations you disagreed with, and explaining your disagreements, you laid out a surface level, Wikipedia-style plot summary (bar the bit about the legends) that still misses and misunderstands explicit text. Even if it was correct, there's no reason multiple interpretations couldn't exist simultaneously.

For the sake of clarity, I'll point out why specifically this interpretation is incomplete and incorrect. Here are the major holes.

1)
Tl;dr: Lysandre thought the world was overpopulated and was suffering the effects of such (like people fighting each other for limited resources or stealing from one another)
Partially wrong, partially right. Lysandre does not believe this early-game, but he does believe it late-game.

Early-game Lysandre:
"Kalos is beautiful right now! There will be no foolish actions if the number of people and Pokémon do not increase. That being said, the future isn't decided. You can't be sure each day will be like the one before."

Some kind of change happened to take his beliefs from "Bad things may happen in the future, but the present is fine!" to "The present is not fine / doomed to become so, and requires immediate action!", which he does believe later as you say. The game drops hints at the cause of this change, most explicitly when Sycamore says Lysandre couldn't put his ego aside after his defeat. I integrate those hints more fully in my post.

2)
I believe that's what the NPCs trying to claim he had a point where referencing.
True in isolation, but the way you make this claim is misreading the room. Our problem with "Lysandre had a point" dialogue was not "it doesn't reference anything plausible." Our problem was that saying stuff like "We should meet Lysandre halfway!" is, on its face, nonsense. There's nothing to justify "We should meet the mass murdering terrorist halfway." Even if a line like that had good intentions and ideas that can be saved, it needs some kind of change to better express itself.

3)
He thought this behavior was ugly on the world and his idea of beauty was to reduce the world's population in order to create a big enough resources to people ratio for people to no longer fight among each other, steal limited resources, or even have to share materials.
Lysandre was trying to stabilize the sustainability of populations in a way he saw fit.
Very incomplete. "He was doing what he thought was right" is an overly simplistic understanding that misses key explicit detail from the text. At multiple points, the game explicitly and implicitly prods you to think critically about why he got here, and the mistakes he made along the way. Understanding these mistakes is key for understanding the story. I'm not teasing out subtle explanations here, the game is just telling you right up.

Here are some points of textual evidence:

A) Diantha directly challenges his idea of beauty, calling it ridiculous. (Café Soleil)
B) After Lysandre tells you that he tried to work all on his own (Lysandre Labs) and implies that seeking help from humans is demeaning (Team Flare Secret HQ), Calem / Serena tell him directly that he shouldn't worry about the future all alone, and that he should work together with everyone, not on his own. (Team Flare Secret HQ)
C) Sycamore tells you directly that he was egotistical. (Couriway)
This selfishness angle is also supported by a use of call-back I find cute. Note the similarities between the following dialogues:

Early on: (Lysandre Café)
"People can be divided into two groups. Those who give... And those who take..." "I want to be the kind of person who gives... But in this world, some foolish humans exist who would show their strength by taking what isn't theirs.""They're filth!"
""Long, long ago, the king of Kalos sought to take everything for his own"

Later: (Lysandre Labs)
That's why I decided the only way to save the world was to take it all for myself."
Notice how the giver became the taker, became what he once called filth! ? The descendant of the king of Kalos has, metaphorically, become the new king of Kalos. It's a clever bit of foreshadowing.

4)
Sycamore sees where Lysandre got the point in claiming the world was overpopulated
Mostly wrong, assuming you refer to the Couriway Town dialogue. He says overpopulation "maybe someday" could happen, and doesn't give any credence to Lysandre's belief that it is happening right now.

5)
He couldn't just wipe random selections of the world out of existence. He wanted it to be hard to fit in since his vision was to reduce the world's population by a significant extent, so he charged 5 million Pokedollars to enter.
Underbaked view. There are a zillion possible ways to pick a small subset of the population to join his organization. He could hand-pick some people he trusted, or those that were especially competent in some way. He could pick a random subset of the population to become Team Flare members. He could find people who did public acts of kindness to prevent the kind of greedy world he feared from repeating itself post-weapon.

In a world of all these options, he:
1) Picked the kind of selfish, greedy, and unproductive he people complained about (Team Flare members);
2) Picked people not for their personal skills to work alongside him, but for contributing money that he could use to do the heavy lifting on his own;
3) Picked people on the basis of funneling large sums of money to himself, evoking the greed he complained about;

As a narrative choice, do you think this is a coincidence? That he just happened to use this method to recruit a small subset of people, instead of any other I mentioned? I do not think it was a coincidence.
 
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