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Unpopular opinions

So I think the thing about Black & White is that it's not intended to entertain N or Team Plasma as right in the first place. The series clearly has the "Humans and Pokemon can co-exist" philosophy from the get-go, and at most the point is a Decon-Recon switch where the idea is to have the argument reinforced by presenting a counter that, valid or not, requires expanding on the idea to respond to it. No one is expecting someone's mind to change about how Pokemon works for the audience perspective, so much as make them think about this fantasy series theme in a way that might parallel a real-life discussion.

I disagree with the notion that N's abuse coming up in the last leg of the game is as clumsy as it sounds, in part because it informs his character without being the center of his arc the way Lillie's was (i.e. journey starts with escaping, growth is exemplified in self-sufficiency being learned, and climax is confronting and showing she's stronger than her mother's abuse on her). Throughout the entire game, N is questioning how the player and everyone can think humans living with Pokemon is so normal and good, which is incredibly bizarre given the fairly clean perspective we see from the cast (and meta knowledge for veteran players): the reveal of N's upbringing is contextualizes this because he was never shown this, so he doesn't have your positive experiences to shape his life. Retroactively applying Lillie's lens to N is a disservice to both characters in my opinion, and to an extent even to their respective stories because not all abuses take the same shape or motive (Lusamine had a very warped and conditional form of love, while Ghetsis flat out only saw N as a tool to his own ends) and trying to judge them all with the same narrative criteria is almost Square-peg -> Round-hole.

On top of this, N is an extreme case, but consider he grew up an orphan (what happened to his birth family never directly stated) and only was shown Pokemon he knew before Ghetsis adopted him and then Pokemon who had been mistreated/abused by humans before, along with minimal human contact outside Team Plasma at all. I don't think the story is taking a "Black or White" stance by saying the system should be upheld vs torn down, because immorality exists in both extremes regardless: even if we as a society decided to separate, immoral humans would still use Pokemon; conversely, even with Pokemon living amongst humans and in harmony as shown, abuses still happen that aren't all caught (Ghetsis is never confirmed to be the abuser of the Pokemon N is raised with, just human experiences they had prior).

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On a tangential note, here's a hot take of mine: Pokemon works best when its villain are simply bad people, no redemption arc or intended sympathy moment for them (and IS AWARE OF THEM AS SUCH see Lysandre). A major facet of this for me is that when the villain is sympathetic in their motive, stories can be afraid to overdo their wrongs for fear of complicating or shooting the message with the messenger.

We've had a lot of discourse about N, but there's the argument to be made that while he's the rival/antagonist, the Big Bad of Gen 5 is obviously Ghetsis, who isn't quite as layered, but definitely very memorable for some lines he'll cross (both directly and even just verbally) compared to other antagonists we've had. Infamously he had no hesitation about attacking the trainer themselves with Kyurem and implicitly intending to off you and N for getting in the way of his plots.

Lusamine as a consensus is regarded as worse written with the USUM retcon to make her character a Knight-Templar/Anti-Hero figure rather than an outright villain, Chairman Rose is a mess because his extreme actions conflict with his altruistic motive and the anime's tragic history (father dying in a Coal Mine -> Avert an energy crisis, including depending on dangerous jobs like mining), and Archie/Maxie have been memed endlessly for being Eco-terrorists that didn't know how the Water Cycle worked (at least in OG, where Remakes they at least knew and didn't care about collateral damage to Humans/Pokemon, respectively). Most Pokemon stories trying to invoke a morally ambiguous or grey antagonist (at least during said stint as one) have fallen on their face.

By contrast, some of Pokemon's most memorable villains are the ones who display little in the way of redeeming qualities.
  • Giovanni is the most often recurring Leader because of Gen 1 throwbacks, but there's an intimidation factor to an enemy who has no better-quality to reason with when you interfere with his business, such that he can play the big-bad on presence alone in something like Rainbow Rocket next to compatriots controlling Demi-Gods.
  • I already mentioned how SM Lusamine is much better regarded, and one part of this is because despite the sympathetic history preceding her spiral, none of what she says or does during the game is meant to frame her as misunderstood: everything she does to her children and others is explicitly selfish, toxic, and wrong that she needs to try (whether or not she can) make amends for after being put in her place by you and Nebby. For argument's sake, I'm excluding Anime Lusamine here because her actions and the plot rewrite clearly aren't trying to make her a villain in the first place.
  • To bring in a spin-off, Explorers Darkrai is arguably one of the most despicable villains in the series, most memorably because he goes from essentially trying to cause the Apocalypse for his own benefit to manipulating the PC and Partner into considering their own death-and-disappearance as necessary on his second attempt. The game wipes his memory at the end of the plot to handwave his recruitment, but the character he is for the entire narrative is despicable and unrepentant at the end of his agency.
  • While not appearing in the flesh, SV's Professor I'm also inclined to put on this list because while their diaries show a spiral in their work, the legacy they left on the world was a Broken family and an obsession with work that jeopardized and entire Region simply in pursuit of their own hubris and fixation. The measures in place on the time machine essentially confirm that they valued their work's continuance over anything else, such that their shut-down contingencies were basically Booby Traps to eliminate whatever was trying to stop the machine.
One thing a lot of these villains have in common is that they will (knowingly and willingly) step over lines that are hard if not impossible to come back from like trying to end peoples' lives, which ups the stakes of having to halt their plans in the narrative beyond simply moving to the next plot beat.


Unless that's something they changed for HGSS that I forgot about, no you didn't. You definitely didn't in the originals, you walked up and challenged them individually. I've only ever played the remakes the once though, so...
To clarify, yes, this was a change in HGSS, where the Kimono Girls were NPC's you met without battling throughout the game and then faced in a Gauntlet before your Cover Legendary.


Rose brings up a systemic problem (the problem with energy) but then the ending of the game is "No, stop interrupting the sports match, this isn't a problem that actually matters". And he's punished for it lol
So I tend to be one of SwSh's biggest critics in my circle, but I do need to address something here (because ironically it almost aligns with my own different-but-still-significant criticism of this theme).

Leon (and the story by extension) aren't saying to ignore the energy crisis, just not to rush into things literally the night they're talking.

"I think I understand well enough. What I don't understand is why we ought to cancel tomorrow's tournament in order to solve a problem that's a thousand years away from affecting any of us! What difference is one day going to make? My duty as Champion isn't this...this madness. It's to carry out that Championship Match! That's what Galar wants—and what I want! It's what we've all been looking forward to for so long!"

"In a thousand years! Fine. Look. I think I understand your concerns, Chairman. And I give my word I'll help you with your plans...just as soon as tomorrow's match is over."
Leon's response to me always came across as "I will help you with the match, but could you ask me to do this after the big public event we've been preparing for months for and will raise concerns over canceling?"

Rose and the story never present a counter to Leon's question of "what difference is one day going to make?" to suggest Rose's urgency is anything but his own rush into the matter, despite this not just affecting him with his plan OR the problem itself. I could almost read this (accidentally or otherwise) as a message about how taking an immediate, volatile solution doesn't necessarily solve a systemic problem compared to a long-term and collaborative effort (something very prescient at the time and at present), but then Rose's plan DOES solve the energy crisis for Galar, essentially sweeping the problem away rather than leaving it on the table for the cast to say "Rose was insane, but this is a real issue we need to tackle going forward."
 
Speaking of dusknoir, I hate how the game handles his introduction.

He first appears and you get to have 10 minutes of him being nice and cool. You do the amp plains mission, and get a contrived "actually the bosses are going to win" until he appears to save you. Ok, fine, this series loves doing that anyway. After you leave amp plains, you talk to dusknoir and the game decides to just drop the fact he's going to be evil actually immediately.

like 10 minutes later, he makes the portal, calls you and your partner and you know you're going to be yoinked in some way because he's evil. He does that, you get trapped, and then have to spend 20 more minutes with your partner bickering with grovyle about how dusknoir is too nice to have done that to us, which you feel very little emotional stake to because it's a character you spent a total of 20 minutes knowing and the later half was knowing he's evil already.

This is so fucking baffling because explorers has such a slog of a pace, and yet they give you no time to get attached to dusknoir, they dont let you be surprised by dusknoir being evil, and then they just chuck in an unearned denial arc on your partner that you have to tolerate until they come to their senses like the player does.

why not let dusknoir hang around more? have him saving you be something more impactful than "we wanted to get a baby toy and apparently the bosses are gonna beat us up", let him manipulate and work on his plan. maybe he realizes you lost your memory and tries to implant fake ones?? turns you even more against grovyle?? idk man just do anything with this fuckass character lol

the ACT betrayal is more nuanced and hinted at than dusknoirs and that's insane because ACT is honestly a very simple rival team
 
Retroactively applying Lillie's lens to N is a disservice to both characters in my opinion, and to an extent even to their respective stories because not all abuses take the same shape or motive (Lusamine had a very warped and conditional form of love, while Ghetsis flat out only saw N as a tool to his own ends) and trying to judge them all with the same narrative criteria is almost Square-peg -> Round-hole.
My criticism comparing the two isn't that their "abuse is in different ways", it's that I think N is badly written while Lillie is well-written

Mostly because I think N's character-driven conflict is forced while Lillie's makes more sense, and that actually yes I do think this kind of thing should be a part of the character fairly early on rather than just thrown 5 minutes before credits
 
Speaking of dusknoir, I hate how the game handles his introduction.

He first appears and you get to have 10 minutes of him being nice and cool. You do the amp plains mission, and get a contrived "actually the bosses are going to win" until he appears to save you. Ok, fine, this series loves doing that anyway. After you leave amp plains, you talk to dusknoir and the game decides to just drop the fact he's going to be evil actually immediately.

like 10 minutes later, he makes the portal, calls you and your partner and you know you're going to be yoinked in some way because he's evil. He does that, you get trapped, and then have to spend 20 more minutes with your partner bickering with grovyle about how dusknoir is too nice to have done that to us, which you feel very little emotional stake to because it's a character you spent a total of 20 minutes knowing and the later half was knowing he's evil already.

This is so fucking baffling because explorers has such a slog of a pace, and yet they give you no time to get attached to dusknoir, they dont let you be surprised by dusknoir being evil, and then they just chuck in an unearned denial arc on your partner that you have to tolerate until they come to their senses like the player does.

why not let dusknoir hang around more? have him saving you be something more impactful than "we wanted to get a baby toy and apparently the bosses are gonna beat us up", let him manipulate and work on his plan. maybe he realizes you lost your memory and tries to implant fake ones?? turns you even more against grovyle?? idk man just do anything with this fuckass character lol

the ACT betrayal is more nuanced and hinted at than dusknoirs and that's insane because ACT is honestly a very simple rival team
The secret of Explorers of Sky is that its characters aren't actually very good and a lot of the game's charm is based on anime-moments that are very emotional, and I say this as someone who loves the game.

You could describe the Partner's arc as: Isn't self-sufficient -> Meets player -> Player goes bye-bye -> Credits show that this turns Partner into emotional wreck -> Player coming back helps fix problem

It's great fanfic bait but I don't think the partner is actually interesting or that the arc is even well-done, if you could even consider it complete. One of the reasons I love Super Mystery Dungeon so much is that the Partner's arc is basically the plot of the game.

Dusknoir as said is kinda whack, Special Episode 5 in general is required for Dusknoir and Celebi to really get developed. Grovyle is cool but like doesn't have that much to say until Special Episode 5.

A great way to think about how EoS is so moment-driven rather than like, being the most well-thought-out story is: How did Darkrai get to Temporal Tower in the first place? I don't know, and the devs probably didn't know either, considering where Darkrai is in the story, but it sets up the emotional moments that makes it such a hard-hitting game.

Explorers of Sky is kind of the antithesis to a lot of modern writing where it's "How do we make sure this is thought out" rather than impact people, and in a way that is also why the series has had a massive fanfic/fanart scene since the 2000s, let's the fans imagination flesh out the inherent mysteries to the world.

It's very Whimsy-Core, why do the Time Gears exist, seems pretty weird right? Who knows, but they look cool and are cool and plot device and woah they do a thing, here's a plot twist.

Still, that doesn't mean I can't and won't criticize one of my favorite games for not thinking some things out (like that), and I agree with your post very much.
 
Instead of engaging with the interpretations you disagreed with, and explaining your disagreements, you laid out a surface level, Wikipedia-style plot summary (bar the bit about the legends) that still misses and misunderstands explicit text. Even if it was correct, there's no reason multiple interpretations couldn't exist simultaneously.

For the sake of clarity, I'll point out why specifically this interpretation is incomplete and incorrect. Here are the major holes.

1)

Partially wrong, partially right. Lysandre does not believe this early-game, but he does believe it late-game.

Early-game Lysandre:
"Kalos is beautiful right now! There will be no foolish actions if the number of people and Pokémon do not increase. That being said, the future isn't decided. You can't be sure each day will be like the one before."

Some kind of change happened to take his beliefs from "Bad things may happen in the future, but the present is fine!" to "The present is not fine / doomed to become so, and requires immediate action!", which he does believe later as you say. The game drops hints at the cause of this change, most explicitly when Sycamore says Lysandre couldn't put his ego aside after his defeat. I integrate those hints more fully in my post.

2)

True in isolation, but the way you make this claim is misreading the room. Our problem with "Lysandre had a point" dialogue was not "it doesn't reference anything plausible." Our problem was that saying stuff like "We should meet Lysandre halfway!" is, on its face, nonsense. There's nothing to justify "We should meet the mass murdering terrorist halfway." Even if a line like that had good intentions and ideas that can be saved, it needs some kind of change to better express itself.

3)


Very incomplete. "He was doing what he thought was right" is an overly simplistic understanding that misses key explicit detail from the text. At multiple points, the game explicitly and implicitly prods you to think critically about why he got here, and the mistakes he made along the way. Understanding these mistakes is key for understanding the story. I'm not teasing out subtle explanations here, the game is just telling you right up.

Here are some points of textual evidence:

A) Diantha directly challenges his idea of beauty, calling it ridiculous. (Café Soleil)
B) After Lysandre tells you that he tried to work all on his own (Lysandre Labs) and implies that seeking help from humans is demeaning (Team Flare Secret HQ), Calem / Serena tell him directly that he shouldn't worry about the future all alone, and that he should work together with everyone, not on his own. (Team Flare Secret HQ)
C) Sycamore tells you directly that he was egotistical. (Couriway)
This selfishness angle is also supported by a use of call-back I find cute. Note the similarities between the following dialogues:

Early on: (Lysandre Café)



Later: (Lysandre Labs)

Notice how the giver became the taker, became what he once called filth! ? The descendant of the king of Kalos has, metaphorically, become the new king of Kalos. It's a clever bit of foreshadowing.

4)

Mostly wrong, assuming you refer to the Couriway Town dialogue. He says overpopulation "maybe someday" could happen, and doesn't give any credence to Lysandre's belief that it is happening right now.

5)

Underbaked view. There are a zillion possible ways to pick a small subset of the population to join his organization. He could hand-pick some people he trusted, or those that were especially competent in some way. He could pick a random subset of the population to become Team Flare members. He could find people who did public acts of kindness to prevent the kind of greedy world he feared from repeating itself post-weapon.

In a world of all these options, he:
1) Picked the kind of selfish, greedy, and unproductive he people complained about (Team Flare members);
2) Picked people not for their personal skills to work alongside him, but for contributing money that he could use to do the heavy lifting on his own;
3) Picked people on the basis of funneling large sums of money to himself, evoking the greed he complained about;

As a narrative choice, do you think this is a coincidence? That he just happened to use this method to recruit a small subset of people, instead of any other I mentioned? I do not think it was a coincidence.
I don't really care to argue over much of this but I wanted to bring a few things up.

Where did you get the idea that Kalos = World? Yes he thought Kalos was fine... he didn't think the world as a whole was.
The game doesn't prove Lysandre changed his mind throughout the story. His target was the world and he was aiming to use a weapon firing a beam with the intention to cause damage in a worldwide radius. Kalos just got swallowed up into this since there's not much of a feasible way to exclude one region from a world-ranged weapon.

Also
"Even though resources, space, and energy on this planet are limited, the number of people and Pokémon has increased to an unsustainable level. Whether it's money or energy, the ones who steal are the ones who win in this world.""So, tell me. The Mega Ring, did you share it?""When there is only one of something, it can't be shared. When something can't be shared, it will be fought over. And when something is fought over, some must survive without it. The only way to create a world where people live in beauty, a world without conflict or theft, is to reduce the number of living things."

This is directly what he meant by effects of overpopulation, which the Sycamore quote addresses
"And I'd also like to thank you! I'm sincerely grateful for what you did for all of the Pokémon and people of this world. And by stopping Team Flare, you also saved Lysandre. I always knew that he desired a beautiful world...""And maybe someday the population of people and Pokémon will actually increase to where resources become very scarce. If someone acts out of greed in such a world, surely some will go without. If all living things keep acting that way, there will be nothing left at all in the end. Why, there won't even be anything left to steal, will there?"

Several random NPCs after the climax address similar views over this very topic.
 
Unless that's something they changed for HGSS that I forgot about, no you didn't. You definitely didn't in the originals, you walked up and challenged them individually. I've only ever played the remakes the once though, so...

It is something that was changed for the remakes, yes

I will say I can maybe see your point for this on Cheren/Bianca, to an extent- though I have problems with their arcs as well, and even think the messaging for Bianca and Cheren is actually Bleh, but as for like, the main plot? And main theme of the game, where the protagonists have the Black and White dragon legends for a fight of ideas?

The premise is literally black and white though. [...] The Plot. Is Black and White.

It's quite literally the very opposite.

"Black" and "white" aren't fixed concepts - they're words used throughout the story as a figurative expression for two sides of any given topic or divide: people and Pokemon, progress and tradition, truth and ideals, dreams and reality. This concept crops up again and again in the story and the game world in a variety of ways: there are two sides to everything, and different values and ideologies coexist side-by-side.

Except that it's a false distinction. In fact I'd go as far as to say it's unavoidably so, since the games take inspiration from the concept of yin and yang, the very idea of which is that opposites are distinct but intrinsicly interconnected. Opposites depend on their counterparts: sound exists in opposition to silence, day exists in contrast to night. This is best summed up by the NPCs who travel between Black City and White Forest: those in the city wish for less pressure and a quieter lifestyle, while those in the forest express a desire for a more cosmopolitan lifestyle and the excitement of a bustling metropolis. The world is not black and white, because things existing alongside each other inevitably means some intermixing will occur. Those who desire black and white to be distinct are those who push back against that mixing, and who view separatism as preferable. That's N's way of looking at the world:

"Many different values mix together, and the world becomes gray... That is unforgivable! I will separate Pokémon and people, and black and white will be clearly distinct!"

Except that this way of thinking is shown, again and again, to be wrong. Because the notion of two distinct sides being better or more desirable than a mixture of both is repeatedly demonstrated to be unworkable, at least in the context of the games' plot. People and Pokemon are stronger as a union, progress and tradition do not have to be exclusive concepts, there is joy and strength in diversity (something perhaps most obviously showcased in Castelia City).

This idea of interconnection is expressed in a multitude of ways in the Unova games. Hell, it's baked into the formula of the games themselves, though Black and White are the first titles in the series to make such specific use of it. It's even apparent through the mechanics of places like the Entralink, the Dream World, and the Interdream Zone: the player and their Pokemon might be stepping into an alternate reality when visiting those locations, but the items and Pokemon which come from those places are as real as those which don't, and in this way the real world and the world of dreams are drawn together.

This idea of black and white intermingling is also reflected in the way the supposedly contrasting goals of "truth" and "ideals" are, in fact, nothing of the sort - rather, they're actually completely interchangeable. On paper they may seem opposed, but what's apparent is that for those unwilling to consider opposing viewpoints, the two concepts become conflated: one person's "truth" may seem like idealism to others, while an idealism can become so overwhelmingly powerful that it becomes indistinguishable from what the holder perceives to be the truth.

So the defining conflict of the games - the struggle to separate Pokemon from people - is shown to be built on sand because it is fundamentally based on a lie, which N comes to realise across the course of the story:

"It's about when I first met you in Accumula Town. I was shocked when I heard what your Pokémon was saying. I was shocked because that Pokémon said it liked you. It said it wanted to be with you. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't believe there were Pokémon that liked people. Because, up until that moment, I'd never known a Pokémon like that. The longer my journey continued, the more unsure I became. All I kept meeting were Pokémon and people who communicated with one another and helped one another. That was why I needed to confirm my beliefs by battling with you. I wanted to confront you hero-to-hero. I needed that more than anything."

There is zero reason for any character in the plot to believe that Pokemon training is wrong, outside of the character who was abused (and that is why he thinks it's wrong).

Every trainer, NPC, thing in the game outside of Team Plasma (who are supposed to be the argument for the opposing side) has an at least on the surface good relationship with Pokemon, don't abuse them, and nothing is shown for any struggle.

Why do any people believe things that aren't true? Because they're lied to. This point is made repeatedly in the story; Team Plasma sow doubt and discord, and people are swayed by it.

After their speech in Opelucid City, an NPC wonders "Is it true? Have we been making Pokemon suffer?" with a second adding "Maybe we should release our Pokemon like Team Plasma said..." Not even all of those people agree: a third NPC says "No way!" and Cheren rejects the idea out of hand when he first hears it.

You don't have to look particularly far in the real world to see examples of people who believe things that are categorically untrue, so I'm not sure why the idea that a demonstrable reality (Pokemon training is good) should be some infallible sacred cow in the Pokemon world. I really don't understand this idea that fictional characters are, or should be, any more immune to irrational behaviour or groupthink than real people.

N's beliefs are truly held - he was deceived by Ghetsis, but his view that the relationship between people and Pokemon is inherently and innately harmful comes from something real. The problem is that it is a truth, but it is not the truth - whether we like it or not, the truth is not singular and it is rarely simple. And those who refuse to consider other viewpoints as equally valid are those from whom conflict springs. Alder literally sums this up as concisely

"N, even if we don't understand each other, that's not a reason to reject each other. There are two sides to any argument. Is there one point of view that has all the answers? Give it some thought."

Sure, there are simple and unambiguous truths, both in this story and the real world. As someone expressed a few posts back, you are under no obligation to attempt to meet bigots and extremists halfway, and it's often counterproductive to even try. But for the most part it's driven home that the mingling of black and white - the grayness N speaks of - is actually the true, desirable state of things, and is stronger by far than a stark black-and-white world would be (if indeed such a world could even exist). Two things can be distinct from each other without necessarily being separate, and two different sides of a divide are not always irreconcilable.

So I have to disagree that the plot of these games is "black and white"; if anything it's the distinct opposite. It's a binary that's almost instantly demonstrated to be a flawed premise.
 
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"Many different values mix together, and the world becomes gray... That is unforgivable! I will separate Pokémon and people, and black and white will be clearly distinct!"
I'm gonna touch back on this later, but I agree that this is an interesting line and could be very meaningful, and could be read as a counter to my point.

However, I don't agree with the game here, and as I want to explain later: The game IMO thinks itself to be way more thought-provoking than it is. In this example, this posits that people and Pokemon being together is the "Gray Option", however I disagree:

In the context of the game's premise Question, it's Thesis: "Should Pokemon and people be together?" the answer for either is Yes or No, and that saying that training is fine is not Gray- it is Yes, Black or White depending on your view.

Gray would be nuance, which I do not think the answer to the question in the game actually has.

"Black" and "white" aren't fixed concepts - they're words used throughout the story as a figurative expression for two sides of any given topic or divide: people and Pokemon, progress and tradition, truth and ideals, dreams and reality. This concept crops up again and again in the story and the game world in a variety of ways: there are two sides to everything, and different values and ideologies coexist side-by-side.
The one the game focuses on, people and Pokemon, is something that has a very clear answer, there is no in-between on the topic.

The rest is small themes brought up that actually do not end up mattering much. Just because the game alludes at certain themes doesn't mean I have to take them seriously, Reshiram and Zekrom may have cool ideas at their cores but genuinely things like "dreams and reality" do not actually matter to the plot outside of a very loose interpretation.

At best there is Cheren and Bianca who generally are not that important and is basically like three scenes each.

The biggest plot and the one most people care about is N and Ghetsis/Team Plasma, the one the game beats you over the head with. And to be clear, none of the Cheren/Bianca stuff actually really ties into that at all, outside of: Loose interpretations.

So the defining conflict of the games - the struggle to separate Pokemon from people - is shown to be built on sand because it is fundamentally based on a lie, which N comes to realise across the course of the story:
This is bad writing though IMO..

Like if you read a book where it's about if something is right or wrong, and then the answer was just that the people with one viewpoint were fed a lie, that'd be boring, unsatisfying, and generally get it bad reviews.

Because you made a book about Is Thing Moral, and then the answer is The Status Quo is Fine, And The Opposers Are Just Abused-And-Wrong

Which is boring.

"It's about when I first met you in Accumula Town. I was shocked when I heard what your Pokémon was saying. I was shocked because that Pokémon said it liked you. It said it wanted to be with you. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't believe there were Pokémon that liked people. Because, up until that moment, I'd never known a Pokémon like that. The longer my journey continued, the more unsure I became. All I kept meeting were Pokémon and people who communicated with one another and helped one another. That was why I needed to confirm my beliefs by battling with you. I wanted to confront you hero-to-hero. I needed that more than anything."
Again, still bad writing. This is just a fundamentally not interesting arc for the character or way to take the themes of the game.

Why do any people believe things that aren't true? Because they're lied to. This point is made repeatedly in the story; Team Plasma sow doubt and discord, and people are swayed by it.
Having people just be lied to isn't an actually interesting story when the story hinges on a moral question.

You don't have to look particularly far in the real world to see examples of people who believe things that are categorically untrue, so I'm not sure why the idea that a demonstrable reality (Pokemon training is good) should be some infallible sacred cow in the Pokemon world. I really don't understand this idea that fictional characters are, or should be, any more immune to irrational behaviour or groupthink than real people.
Because fiction isn't just "What if this thing was in a book", stories are ways we convey ideas.

Most books that tackle the status quo of a universe almost always side with "the status quo is wrong" for a reason, it's because that is an interesting plot point. Stories where the populace has been lied to use that as the status quo to be taken down, not as what the world may fall to.

Preventing the status quo from changing is generally just not satisfying, and stories about this (that work) have to be very character focused. It's less about why we are stopping the villain from ruining the world, and more about what this means for the characters, their travels, or other themes.

Now, this is why I focus on the fact that I think BW's character writing (mostly the protag and N) sucks. Because IMO that inherently ruins the story. Now the plot has no reason to exist and the characters don't have an interesting reason to exist either.

It leaves me thinking, "What are we even doing here?" N was wrong, the player had no real input, the plot was just stop Ghetsis at its core, all the themes didn't really end up mattering.

It's pointless.

N's beliefs are truly held - he was deceived by Ghetsis, but his view that the relationship between people and Pokemon is inherently and innately harmful comes from something real. The problem is that it is a truth, but it is not the truth - whether we like it or not, the truth is not singular and it is rarely simple. And those who refuse to consider other viewpoints as equally valid are those from whom conflict springs.
This truth is very simple though.

Because there is only 1 example of any Pokemon being mistreated in the entirety of BW1 and it is Team Plasma. Who are supposed to be the proponents of this ideology.

This question is Black and White.

Alder literally sums this up as concisely

"N, even if we don't understand each other, that's not a reason to reject each other. There are two sides to any argument. Is there one point of view that has all the answers? Give it some thought."
Alder can say this, the game can think it's thought-provoking, but it isn't. There is no reason to have two sides to this conflict.

Sure, there are simple and unambiguous truths, both in this story and the real world. As someone expressed a few posts back, you are under no obligation to attempt to meet bigots and extremists halfway, and it's often counterproductive to even try. But for the most part it's driven home that the mingling of black and white - the grayness N speaks of - is actually the true, desirable state of things, and is stronger by far than a stark black-and-white world would be (if indeed such a world could even exist). Two things can be distinct from each other without necessarily being separate, and two different sides of a divide are not always irreconcilable.
My problem with your whole analysis isn't that I think you're wrong on what the plot should be, but that I think you are putting a lot more meaning into a story that isn't all that meaningful.

Like, ultimately this is a Pokemon game where characters have like 50 lines of dialogue (on the upper end), they rarely have many character traits, and these stories are very linear.

That isn't to say a Pokemon game can't have excellent themes and deliver, that is why I defend Sun and Moon to My Grave.

But ultimately I feel like Gen 5 is fanfic bait rather than an actually well-written story. The game thinks it's saying more than it is, and what it thinks is meaningful ends up having no nuance. The game can have characters say lines that would be thought-provoking in almost any other story, and fit most stories beautifully, but they're in a story with actually very little nuance.

That's when you pull out the great characters, but I do not think BW has great characters

Genuinely, I'm glad that the story gives you more to chew on, and that you give more to the story- but for me all of this reads dryly and flat. It's a mirage to me.
 
Where did you get the idea that Kalos = World? Yes he thought Kalos was fine... he didn't think the world as a whole was.
The game doesn't prove Lysandre changed his mind throughout the story. His target was the world and he was aiming to use a weapon firing a beam with the intention to cause damage in a worldwide radius. Kalos just got swallowed up into this since there's not much of a feasible way to exclude one region from a world-ranged weapon.
Because the real question is "Did he change his mind?" I'll show that, yes, he did, with a more straightforward and time-efficient argument that doesn't require getting into Kalos versus the world.

Lysandre in Lysandre Café, early on (paraphrased):

- "People are either givers or takers, and I'm a giver"
- "The king of Kalos, who took everything for himself and unleashed the ultimate weapon, was reprehensible"
- "The future isn't decided"

Lysandre in Lysandre Labs / Team Flare Secret HQ, later (paraphrased):

- "I'm taking everything for myself" (ergo, I'm a taker)
- I want to take everything for myself and unleash the ultimate weapon, but I'm not reprehensible, I'm justified
- I can only see one future, a tragic future
 
Because fiction isn't just "What if this thing was in a book", stories are ways we convey ideas.

I didn't say it was, I was simply pointing out that saying "why don't these characters act/think logically" isn't a valid critique.

My problem with your whole analysis isn't that I think you're wrong on what the plot should be, but that I think you are putting a lot more meaning into a story that isn't all that meaningful.

That's completely fine. Your response basically boils down to saying "it isn't thought-provoking" 20 times, and to be honest I don't think I can argue with you much on that. If you don't want to find something thought-provoking, no-one can make you.
 
I didn't say it was, I was simply pointing out that saying "why don't these characters act/think logically" isn't a valid critique.
This isn't the critique.

I never said characters being wrong or illogical is bad. The context of the story is what makes it bad, a story about the morality on a topic, and then one side (the one against the status quo) has no good reasoning. This makes the whole conflict feel shallow when you see through that veil.

If characters being illogical ='d bad then I'd never be able to write a story ever again considering every story I write has people making errors, being illogical, making bad guesses, etc.

That's completely fine. Your response basically boils down to saying "it isn't thought-provoking" 20 times, and to be honest I don't think I can argue with you much on that. If you don't want to find something thought-provoking, no-one can make you.
That isn't what it boils down to.

I gave a good effort to explaining why status quo VS non-status quo is a very important part of most stories being told, and how that relates to how they tell their stories. Then I explained why IMO the way that Black and White handles this kind of writing decision-making in a way that makes it not hold up to critique.

Where I say it's not thought-provoking is because the game does nothing with things.
 
You know I and others have said that Kalos doesn't have systemic problems, I even re-iterated it earlier... But honestly, that's not entirely true. Wealth inequality IS a recurring throughline. First off, during the main story you wind up having to go to Parfum Palace, a stuck-up tourist trap where you have to pay an (in-universe) exorbitant entrance fee and deal with the antics of the out of touch owner who cares more about his Furfrou just to get the item you need to progress. The issue with this sequence in relation to the Lysandre plot is that it's mostly played for laughs and doesn't directly tie in... But it is well above nothing. You are made to confront one of "those who take" not long after Lysandre gives his speech on the matter in a way that directly inconveniences the player. That seems pretty intentional to me.

And then, of course, well after you've put Team Flare into the ground, Lumiose City finally shows its true hand. After spending a whole game scratching your head at what Lysandre was rattling on about you're thrust into a storyline where fan-favorite funnyman Looker tries to take care of a homeless girl only to struggle with money to the point that she is forced to take on a fake job that exploits her desperate situation. Like... When you put it in those terms and actually play the Looker Missions yourself, the contrast with the main game is almost comical. The sincerity and realness of the whole thing makes it feel like it was done by a completely different writer.
 
I don't really care to argue over much of this but I wanted to bring a few things up.

Where did you get the idea that Kalos = World? Yes he thought Kalos was fine... he didn't think the world as a whole was.
The game doesn't prove Lysandre changed his mind throughout the story. His target was the world and he was aiming to use a weapon firing a beam with the intention to cause damage in a worldwide radius. Kalos just got swallowed up into this since there's not much of a feasible way to exclude one region from a world-ranged weapon.

Also
"Even though resources, space, and energy on this planet are limited, the number of people and Pokémon has increased to an unsustainable level. Whether it's money or energy, the ones who steal are the ones who win in this world.""So, tell me. The Mega Ring, did you share it?""When there is only one of something, it can't be shared. When something can't be shared, it will be fought over. And when something is fought over, some must survive without it. The only way to create a world where people live in beauty, a world without conflict or theft, is to reduce the number of living things."

This is directly what he meant by effects of overpopulation, which the Sycamore quote addresses
"And I'd also like to thank you! I'm sincerely grateful for what you did for all of the Pokémon and people of this world. And by stopping Team Flare, you also saved Lysandre. I always knew that he desired a beautiful world...""And maybe someday the population of people and Pokémon will actually increase to where resources become very scarce. If someone acts out of greed in such a world, surely some will go without. If all living things keep acting that way, there will be nothing left at all in the end. Why, there won't even be anything left to steal, will there?"

Several random NPCs after the climax address similar views over this very topic.
I also want to address the hypocrisy point since it's very important. Team Flare were being hypocritical but there was information briefly addressing this giving a reasoning being this rationale.

In the Poké Ball Factory a grunt said Team Flare would be taking resources from everyone for themselves because soon we'd no longer need them. This was intentionally kept vague to foreshadow what was to come. The excuse for coming off hypocritical was the idea that members of Team Flare would soon be the only humans on Earth, and by that logic, are the only ones who would actually need these resources. They acted as if no one else was relevant for the sake of their underlying plan for mass extermination.
 
You know I and others have said that Kalos doesn't have systemic problems, I even re-iterated it earlier... But honestly, that's not entirely true. Wealth inequality IS a recurring throughline. First off, during the main story you wind up having to go to Parfum Palace, a stuck-up tourist trap where you have to pay an (in-universe) exorbitant entrance fee and deal with the antics of the out of touch owner who cares more about his Furfrou just to get the item you need to progress. The issue with this sequence in relation to the Lysandre plot is that it's mostly played for laughs and doesn't directly tie in... But it is well above nothing. You are made to confront one of "those who take" not long after Lysandre gives his speech on the matter in a way that directly inconveniences the player. That seems pretty intentional to me.

And then, of course, well after you've put Team Flare into the ground, Lumiose City finally shows its true hand. After spending a whole game scratching your head at what Lysandre was rattling on about you're thrust into a storyline where fan-favorite funnyman Looker tries to take care of a homeless girl only to struggle with money to the point that she is forced to take on a fake job that exploits her desperate situation. Like... When you put it in those terms and actually play the Looker Missions yourself, the contrast with the main game is almost comical. The sincerity and realness of the whole thing makes it feel like it was done by a completely different writer.
This is a great lens I hadn't thought of, and I'm glad you brought it up.

I think it applies handily to Lysandre too, who demands an exorbitant money price to join his club to survive the apocalypse he'll inflict. There's probably some relevant systemic takeaways here:

- Disaster affects those with fewer resources the least (systemic inequality in harm distribution)
- Power is inherently homogenizing, no matter how good-hearted you start out (see points 3-4 especially)
 
Broke: Wally is the Rival in RSE
Woke: May is the Rival in RSE
Bespoke: Gabby and Ty are the true Rivals in RSE

:psysly:

Half meming, but I find it cool how recurring they are in my Ruby playthrough
That's something I wish we saw more of in the games, non-rival trainers who you encounter multiple times throughout the world. I was expecting to see more of it with the whole crowd of folks in SwSh's gym challenge, but while you see a couple NPCs repeatedly(ball guy, Blipbug girl), nothing happens with them and you don't face them. Evil team admins sometimes recur, but evil teams have been so generic and forgettable that it doesn't ever matter for making them into actual characters.
 
Gabby and Ty also have the choice words interview gimmick + tv after battle, so...that makes them even more above the norm

Fuck it, next game where a random reoccuring NPC becomes champion before you wen
lance-lgpe.png

"I still can't believe my dragons lost to you, <player>! You're now the Pokémon League champion! …Or, you would have been, but you have one more challenge ahead. You have to face another trainer! His name is…"
"Joey! He beat the Elite Four before you. He is the real Pokémon League champion!"

youngster-gen2.png

"How are your Pokémon doing? My Rattata's raring to go, just like always."
 
lance-lgpe.png

"I still can't believe my dragons lost to you, <player>! You're now the Pokémon League champion! …Or, you would have been, but you have one more challenge ahead. You have to face another trainer! His name is…"
"Joey! He beat the Elite Four before you. He is the real Pokémon League champion!"

youngster-gen2.png

"How are your Pokémon doing? My Rattata's raring to go, just like always."
Ok but deadass, Joey using the FEAR strat with a Rattata, then switching to like, lvl 90 mons while you're at lvl 50 would be sooooo funny
 
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Pokemon should learn dramatically fewer moves than they do now. Gen1 was closer to having the right idea on movepools than modern day.

I've traditionally approached this from a competitive play, power creep, option creep angle. Straightforwardly, the more tools Pokemon have, the stronger they become, raising the power level. More insidiously, the more widely that tools are distributed, the more competition there is for roles. Not only is it easier for Pokemon to get outclassed, since good moves like Rapid Spin become less of a unique advantage, but the power level of teams rises in a way less intuitive than the first way. If the only spinner is only good at spinning, using it creates holes that your team comp has to fill. If you can pick from many spinners who have tons of good moves to serve whatever roles you want, the rest of your team can be cranked up in power instead of picking up pieces.

What inspired me to make this post is a new approach, one based on flavor instead of competitive play. The more bloated movepools are, and the more commonly moves are spread out, the harder it is for individual moves to inform a Pokemon's flavor, and the harder it is for a Pokemon's movepool as a whole to inform its flavor.

Those two points are kind of abstract, so I'll do an example. Part of Gyarados's flavor is burning stuff down and shooting beams. If it was the only Pokemon to get Flamethrower, that would follow through on its flavor well, showing its unique ability to burn stuff down with beams. However, so many things get Flamethrower that Gyarados learning it isn't super notable. Separately, because Gyarados learns so many different moves, Flamethrower is just one drop in its sea of options, and struggles to stand out as a part of Gyarados's identity.

My gut instinct is, aside from widely-dispersed TMs and designated-bad-earlygame-moves, most Pokemon's movepools can be condensed to roughly 15 or so real options. This condensing would improve flavor by committing to represent what is important about the Pokemon, and not getting mixed up in a sea of noise. I'll take Gyarados as an example. Gyarados is a challenge and a hard case for my philosophy, since it's trying to squeeze a lot of ideas into one Pokemon.

Gyarados: 20 (plus common TMs like Rest, Hyper Beam, Substitute, etc., and early-game bad-moves like Bulldoze, Tackle, and Dragon Breath)

Aqua Tail
Waterfall
Dive
Bounce (only because Magikarp should have it)
Fly (New)
Earthquake
Double-Edge
Crunch
Outrage
Flail
Dragon Tail
Surf
Hydro Pump
Fire Blast
Ice Beam
Hurricane
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Dance
Roar
Splash (From Magikarp)

Notable Omissions: Thunder Wave, Taunt, Scale Shot, Thunder(bolt), Stone Edge, Power Whip, Ice Fang, Curse

To preserve variety, some moves could be swapped in and out across generations.
 
I don't think I agree. I think pokemon having wide movepools is one of the reasons modern pokemon is much more flexible with building and allows you to actually use your favorite pokemon, without it being a dead weight good for nothing party member.

it also makes pokemon a lot more shallow as creatures. Yeah, gyarados dex entries talk a lot about hyper beam, but its pretty clear its a violent pokemon that makes use of its body to destroy things too? removing stuff like ice fang and scale shot, which make thematic sense, is kind of silly to me.

as for power creep... man we're 1000 pokemon in lol. This ship has long since sailed, power creep is always going to be part of this franchise. Just ban pokemon
 
I think power creep is more a thing in singles while in VGC it's a lot slower.

For a long time I've been of the opinion that in VGC, everything is inherently more balanced (Pick 4 meaning that you can create more lopsided MUs against broken things and vice versa + Double targeting, Protect, Fake Out, other disruption) and on top of that, a lot of mons still find more niches despite being very old just for VGC.

Ofc it also has a lot of new viable mons, but all the time you see old mons rise up to cool new niches, usually because of these combinations of traits.

Gen 9 is probably the most power crept it's been since Gen 5, with many of the best Pokemon being from Gen 9, because a lot of them are built around VGC design wise, but even then there have been interesting shifts like Magmar and Electabuzz as support options, Amoonguss continues as always, Talonflame has an niche, Articuno was found to have a cool use with modern Snow, etc. etc. etc.
 
I don't think I agree. I think pokemon having wide movepools is one of the reasons modern pokemon is much more flexible with building and allows you to actually use your favorite pokemon, without it being a dead weight good for nothing party member.

it also makes pokemon a lot more shallow as creatures. Yeah, gyarados dex entries talk a lot about hyper beam, but its pretty clear its a violent pokemon that makes use of its body to destroy things too? removing stuff like ice fang and scale shot, which make thematic sense, is kind of silly to me.

as for power creep... man we're 1000 pokemon in lol. This ship has long since sailed, power creep is always going to be part of this franchise. Just ban pokemon
I'll be honest, I don't think you read my post that closely.

I'm not sure where you got the dead weight idea from. No Pokemon needs > 15 viable move options to be usable in game. I preserved basically everything good about in-game Gyarados; the omitted moves are usually too inefficient to gain or use, so they're mostly not much help in-game. I briefly expressed measured sympathy for Gen 1 design, sure, but that doesn't extend to making Pokemon dead weight.

Nowhere did I suggest stopping Gyarados from violently using its body to destroy stuff. That's why I gave it a bevy of thrasing, aggressive contact moves. Double-Edge, Outrage, Flail, and Aqua Tail are all about that, and maybe Crunch too. I don't interpret Ice Fang and Scale Shot as following this theme particularly closely, at least from a Gyarados lens. I'm a bit peeved with this critique, because I explicitly said Gyarados was a challenge because it has a lot going on, and then I put more moves about physical violence than about beams. Making Pokemon shallow by removing important material is the opposite of my goal; I want to remove unimportant material so the important stuff can shine, free of muddying and distractions.

About power creep, I don't agree with you at all. We ban Pokemon all the time, but people still think the modern metas are worse than Gen 6/7, which themselves are thought worse than Gen 4 (and maybe Gen 3). Even if the default trajectory is increasing power creep, we can remove existing creep to improve the meta, and put in measures to slow future creep and preserve a good power level for longer.

Obligatory note that I claim no knowledge on anything VGC / double battle related, just that I believe GF has a ***limited*** responsibility to balance for ***certain dimensions*** of singles play.
 
Making Pokemon shallow by removing important material is the opposite of my goal; I want to remove unimportant material so the important stuff can shine, free of muddying and distractions.
this is what i dont get. There's nothing distracting about gyarados moveset? I don't think someone realizing gyarados leans thunder, taunt, scale shot etc is forgetting gyarados is a mon that thrashes and shoots beams. Especially because these moves are move relearner or tms, which already signal them as side moves. If anything, what might delay people from remembering thats the flavor of gyarados is that it takes an extra 20+ levels for it to get hyper beam.

and while there are ways to stop power creep, i think theres more effective ways to do that without removing moves from pokemon, that would go a longer way really. like not making every new pokemon min maxed LMAO.
then again I will always prioritize flavor and pokemon design over the competitive, so thats a priority thing

If you want to bring another mon as an example feel free, but gyarados is the only one you brought so its the only one i can use to explain my issues
 
Those two points are kind of abstract, so I'll do an example. Part of Gyarados's flavor is burning stuff down and shooting beams. If it was the only Pokemon to get Flamethrower, that would follow through on its flavor well, showing its unique ability to burn stuff down with beams. However, so many things get Flamethrower that Gyarados learning it isn't super notable. Separately, because Gyarados learns so many different moves, Flamethrower is just one drop in its sea of options, and struggles to stand out as a part of Gyarados's identity.
Uhhh
It can't learn Flamethrower Gen 1. That was Gen 2. It can learn Fire Blast from TM though

Heck, it doesn't learn Waterfall in Gen 1 at all, has to be transfered from Gen 2. That was originally exclusive to Goldeen line, despite them not being found near waterfalls at all cuz they're sea mons. They made it into an HM field move that required more mons to learn it for overworld. And this all ignores that Gyarados still was suffering from no STAB off its attack till Gen 4

Cardass already showed that having a signature move doesn't mean it isn't ass, nor not generic. I don't think GF ever cared too much of it actually mattering until Gen 7, same for abilities
 
Pokemon should learn dramatically fewer moves than they do now. Gen1 was closer to having the right idea on movepools than modern day.

I think that this mentality doesn't work in modern generations due to the way the games have progressed in design. More than Power Creep, Scope Creep is the real killer here - because the games have made a very conscious effort to "yes, and" existing game elements and balancing decisions, (and I've seen enough people erroneously complain about Game Freak removing Toxic from Gen *9* movepools to understand this call) there isn't really room to walk a lot of things back besides blazing a distinct trail forward.

There's also the fact that, in practice, competitive movesets often do boil down to a pool of 20 moves or less.

In most situations, Pokemon are going to stick to using their 10 best moves, upwards of 15 at most, and even that will often contain universal tools like Protect, Substitute, Return / Hidden Power / Tera Blast, etc. Limiting the set of tools to a total of 20 is a way to force pokemon into a specific line of play which can be more interesting, but even ignoring the impossibility due to backlash, it isn't necessarily a way to guarantee a stronger design.
There's also the way you have your list set up, which I think doesn't help. You picked a really tricky case to try with out and I don't think it worked.
Aqua Tail
Waterfall
Dive
Bounce (only because Magikarp should have it)
Fly (New)
Earthquake
Double-Edge
Crunch
Outrage
Flail
Dragon Tail
Surf
Hydro Pump
Fire Blast
Ice Beam
Hurricane
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Dance
Roar
Splash (From Magikarp)

Starting out, you have multiple examples of Redundancy - Waterfall and Aqua Tail, Fly and Bounce, to a lesser extent Surf and Hydro Pump - how granular you want to be in deciding what counts as overlap is up to you, but these I'd say at a minimum could be condensed.

There's also the moves that don't exist. Splash is the easy target, but I'd also say all of the Special moves aside from maybe Fire Blast and Hurricane do not contribute anything to this kit over 99% of the time. The overwhelming difference in attacking stats and Dragon Dance on top simply concentrates things on the physical side too much - even in a setting devoid of EVs or optimal natures, it's impossible to ignore the difference outside of exactly Ferrothorn.

With those factors considered, your 20 move list is functionally cut in half out the gate. The types of movesets it can create is also pretty limited - Dragon Dance is usually very centralizing on Gyarados anyway, but with only Roar for utility, it's even more the case here. The culmination of this process, then, is basically just Gen 4 Gyarados without the support sets. It doesn't work as well as you'd like.

Meanwhile, a movelist that replaces the aforementioned moves with some of Gen 9 Gyarados's best options might look something like this:

Aqua Tail / Waterfall
Dive
Bounce / Fly
Earthquake
Double-Edge
Crunch
Outrage
Flail
Dragon Tail
Dragon Dance
Roar
Stone Edge
Temper Flare
Power Whip (not in Gen 9 but work with me here)
Ice Fang / Avalanche
Iron Head
Scale Shot
Taunt
Thunder Wave
Icy Wind (for doubles)

And that's... Basically Gyarados's movepool in Gen 9. Which isn't surprising, except that Gyarados really only just got over the hump of having 20 good, non-generic, non-redundant moves as of Gen 9. And it's pretty easy to argue the relevance of moves like Dive, Bounce / Fly, Scale Shot, Icy Wind, etc on such a list, but they're definitely more likely to see actual use compared to Surf.

A relatively small amount of effective moves applying to Pokemon could work well in some limited context - for the RPG gameplay, for the strategy game ROM Hack stuff, or for a modded gamemode that redesigns around that focus, I could see it being really fun, but I'm out of brain power to elaborate any more than that.

Edit: Reading your later post, I guess you were more on about a single 20 move moveset that applies to both the RPG gameplay and competitive / PVP gameplay. Can't agree at all there, part of the reason movepools ballooned in size so much was trying to account for handling both of those sets of players at once.
 
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I feel like trying to limit movepools to the core flavour would run into the same issue D&D-equivalents often have with wizards. It "makes sense" for something like a dragon to have a wide movepool: they're almost always depicted as having powerful natural weapons of both the physical and energy variety, and semi-frequently as talented sorcerers on top of that. So even in a more narrow focus, Dragonite would probably be keeping on just fine with its Extremespeed, Dragon Dance, and special coverage diverse enough to make you think you can get away with running three of them. In contrast, a mon like Vivillon is kinda just some animal, so even if you keep the powder gimmick its signature move highlights, the likes of Psychic, Draining Kiss, Weather Ball, Light Screen, and Hurricane still stand out as "unrealistic" for it to have. The frequent end result is an obvious lack of balance between options because one group can interact with the game in a larger variety of ways than another. And, unlike the traditional wizard setup, the more mundane counterpart isn't guaranteed to have better base stats before the caster starts setting up (it's the opposite with my current examples).

As primarily a monotype player, I would also be concerned about homogenization within a type. Compared to the average mon, Nidoking is a physically imposing mon with venomous spines. Compared to the average Poison-type, Nidoking is a desperately needed source of special coverage. A movepool update that drops Ice Beam but keeps Poison Jab would go against an important aspect of the mon's identity even if it looks fine when zoomed out.
 
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