i am very happy that alomomola isn't a luvdisc evolution
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
i am very happy that alomomola isn't a luvdisc evolution
Gym Challenges went downhill when they started to be full-time gimmicks.
It's supposed to be a simple idea, have an environment full of trainers to showcase a type. That's it.
They should be closer to mini-dungeons than weird amusement park attractions or whatever the SV Gyms were doing.
I agree that they should be mini-dungeons of some sort, but what exactly that means in Pokémon is pretty vague. The series has never had great ways of interacting with the actual environment (HM blockades like Cut/Strength/Rock Smash are about it, and of those, there's only potential puzzle elements when Strength is involved). They can incorporate small setpieces for puzzles, and they've done this, but by design these have to be simple to interact with and understand, since they're not going to be used outside of this one instance. I suppose I'm not sure how "interactive setpieces used only in one building" is less of a gimmick than what SV usually did.
Maybe they didn't succeed in execution, but I liked most of SV's gym challenges as concepts because they forced you to interact with the world in some way, usually tying it to local theming. If anything, given how mini-dungeons/caves/whatever locations in Pokémon you consider dungeons usually go, forcing you to explore a little fits that design better than a goofy little puzzle.
- Katy had the Olive Roll, which you can mess around with outside of the Gym, and is thematic to Cortondo.
- Brassius's Sunflora hunt fits in with his Sunflora statues, and the city's generally impressive greenery.
- Iono didn't do this, really, but she has her own theming and it plays along with that. Not a particularly inspired challenge but it was okay; maybe they held back for hers because Levincia is the second biggest city in Paldea.
- Kofu's intended challenge is never seen; instead we trek to a neighboring city to participate in its auction minigame, which can be used to obtain rare items.
- Larry's challenge works a bit like an investigative puzzle. I think some of the location's clues are not as clear as they should be to find, but it still made players interact with 3D space.
- Ryme's challenge is mostly just a way for players to try and get a feel for double battles, because they otherwise don't exist in SV. There's some poor rapping dialog interspersed to fit her theme, which gratefully doesn't impact the fight except for stat boosts from the crowd's cheers (is this also meant as an introduction to raid cheers?).
- Tulip's ESP is a bad acronym pun and the easiest Simon Says minigame ever, and doesn't really tie into Alfornada or her character at all aside from the aforementioned pun (and I guess her friendship with Dendra). Maybe it's intended to show off camera poses and expressions?
- Grusha's challenge is a very easy snowboarding minigame. It doesn't add anything, but it ties in with his gym's remote location and his history with the sport.
It depends a lot on how they address it. It feels gross to say it, but Alola was on to something with the trials because of the exploration factor tied to the trial sites.
If they improve the exploration phase of the games, there's more room for fun mini-games or things like that, even if I don't like how gym trainers are an afterthought nowadays.
If things stay as is, then I'd rather have the Gyms fill the dungeon void because they can make it a more controlled environment, and perhaps, something good can come out of it.
If anything in Paldea should've been "dungeons," it was the chambers for the 4 ruin legendaries. Those things really felt tacked-on when all was said and done.
In a vacuum, I prefer that SV gyms are (generally) more concerned with thematically tying themselves to the locale than with being some kind of "mini-dungeon" puzzle. It's like the only way in which it feels like any effort was put into giving any part of Paldea some character.
In a vacuum, I prefer that SV gyms are (generally) more concerned with thematically tying themselves to the locale than with being some kind of "mini-dungeon" puzzle. It's like the only way in which it feels like any effort was put into giving any part of Paldea some character.
When doing these Gen 1 sprite analysis you have to remember that no, actually most of these were not done with some actual artistic vision, and in fact non-artists on the team did make sprites for Pokemon that made it into the final, because that was how crunched the team was making this game.Mew’s Gen 1 sprite has often been criticized for being ugly or creepy:
But I’ve always really liked that about it. The lumpy, fetal, vaguely eerie look of it always felt like a good match for the concept of a Pokémon that’s supposed to be a rediscovered universal ancestor. It feels underdeveloped and moldable, like a prototype of a lifeform. Cute Mew is nice and all, but this depiction was always more intriguing and evocative to me.
Every deeper analysis of RBY sprites should be looked at with at least a glance of "maybe this was done by someone who didn't get the Pokemon" or "maybe this was just somebody who was doing the sprite for efficiency, and no one actually made sure it was on model or the intent"
because that literally did happen
you can like them, but that doesn't mean there was some deeper vision that was taken away later, as is seemingly implied here
Yeah, Gen 1 sprites varied depending on the specific designer. Sugimori's were generally less "warped" than other mons, bar Clefable's foot
There's also the fact a good chunk were resized late in dev, which screwed with aliasing for some sprites. Backsprites were meant for smaller icons and were lazily rescaled with no tweaks. Which...Blue and Yellow kept despite more time
Blue sprites for all intents and purposes were off model for no reason. Sugi's art was already out by then for ref, both for RG and Cardass
So I'd rather not "mystify" RGB sprites when it was 90% crunch and random go that Sugimori had to make sense of. The leaks showing some Capumon stuff further shows how late some things were
Inversely, the other thing that bugs me for people talking about Gen 1 mons is not realizing how much the anime and FRLG art changed some designs outside of Pikachu. Like, Charmander effectively became a pug for snout over the years. Gligar's colors pre Gen 4 had white spikes for the wings instead of pink for instance, yet I see some people complain about some RS Gen 3 sprites. Stantler tail is another, and many Gen 1 mons that lost their 4th finger, or gained a 5th.
GF after Gen 4 has generally been consistent for not revealing accidental earlier designs in game, and Gen 1-3 mons generally haven't changed for artwork since. Though then again, no one liked Sugimori's ass colors for Gen 3-4 art :/
There's also the fact a good chunk were resized late in dev, which screwed with aliasing for some sprites. Backsprites were meant for smaller icons and were lazily rescaled with no tweaks. Which...Blue and Yellow kept despite more time
Blue sprites for all intents and purposes were off model for no reason. Sugi's art was already out by then for ref, both for RG and Cardass
So I'd rather not "mystify" RGB sprites when it was 90% crunch and random go that Sugimori had to make sense of. The leaks showing some Capumon stuff further shows how late some things were
Inversely, the other thing that bugs me for people talking about Gen 1 mons is not realizing how much the anime and FRLG art changed some designs outside of Pikachu. Like, Charmander effectively became a pug for snout over the years. Gligar's colors pre Gen 4 had white spikes for the wings instead of pink for instance, yet I see some people complain about some RS Gen 3 sprites. Stantler tail is another, and many Gen 1 mons that lost their 4th finger, or gained a 5th.
GF after Gen 4 has generally been consistent for not revealing accidental earlier designs in game, and Gen 1-3 mons generally haven't changed for artwork since. Though then again, no one liked Sugimori's ass colors for Gen 3-4 art :/
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Idr whether it was Special or a forgotten piece of XY prerelease material that did this first but they should've called the protagonists Xavier and Yvonne across all media. Insanely clever names
It was from the trailer for XY where they showed off Wonder Trade. They're just X and Y in the manga.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
I believe Y's full name in the Adventures manga actually is Yvonne; there's a recurring character called Yvette in the XY chapter as well.
Okay so here's the actual unpopular opinion I came here to make: HGSS's iteration of Blackthorn Gym suuuucks
This? Really cool. Lava! Two separate floors! It's a really innovative and unique take on the mechanics we've already seen throughout the game, since nowhere else utilises Strength boulders as part of paths you can step on. It also creates a nice sense of continuity between Mahogany Gym, the Ice Path, and here since you got some practice at navigating Ice tiles in Pryce's gym, then got some practice at Strength-boulder puzzles in the Ice Path. What I like about this puzzle (and "push-the-boulder-into-a-specific-place" puzzles in general) is that it's not actually that complex but more a test of your dexterity, since one wrong move can ruin everything and force you to restart. I also like that there's a "practice boulder" at the start - I assume that's why it's there, to demonstrate how the rest works - which gets you tantalisingly close to the gym leader.
And yes you're technically forced to bring an HM except no you're not! You can solve the puzzle and then leave and dump your HM user before coming back to take Clair on, unlike Chuck's gym. But also Strength is actually a fairly good move in GSC so it's not like you're hobbling yourself by having one of your team members know it anyway.
This? Dull beyond comprehension. Barely a puzzle at all and incredibly short, which makes it incredibly unmemorable - if it'd been broken up into 4 or 5 or 6 segments, it'd have had a bit of complexity and depth to it but as it is it's just a glorified set of corridors, with the gym trainers lined up to unavoidably stop it being even shorter. Contrast it with the visually complex Humilau Gym, which has a huge amount of individual areas and paths to take:
Regarding the early Gen 1 sprites, my popular opinion is that they are terrible. I can't see any creativity in them at all. It is completely obvious that they are very rushed and poorly done, some look like they have been made in five minutes in MS Paint. I can't think of a single sprite from R/G that I actually like, and only a handful from R/B. The most notable is Kingler, as I actually prefer this faulty sprite over its actual design. But some of the sprites are really atrocious, notably Golbat. When I played R/B as a kid, I always thought the sprites were really bad compared to the anime and TCG art of the Pokémon, or the sprites in Yellow and G/S/C. R/B didn't show me a Golbat, they showed me something that they claimed was a Golbat, when it was just an awful sprite that was used as a placeholder for the Pokémon in question.
In addition to the Blackthorn Gym, I think HG/SS changed the Ecruteak and Mahogany Gyms for the worse as well. The Ecruteak Gym gave me some serious trouble when I played G/S/C as a kid, it was so hard to figure out at first! But then I learned the solution, and I felt really stupid for not realizing it earlier. I think HG/SS changed it for the worse since the path is completely obvious from the start. As for the Mahogany Gym, I think it is just more fun with one big room rather than three smaller ones. It feels like it requires you to think a bit more in order to solve it that way.
Can't speak for the Kanto Gyms yet, I only arrived in Vermilion and beat Surge today, so it is a little early to say. And it has been 12 years since my last playthrough of HG/SS, so I don't remember much from the Kanto Gyms there.
Another area I think HG/SS changed for the worse is the Olivine Lighthouse.
I think it is pretty cool in G/S/C. Despite the blocky nature of the games, they still managed to make it feel round. The floors were fairly large and fun to explore, with several trainers and items. I also like how the shortcut down to the ground floor requires you to fall down several holes, it is a bit brutal but fun and unique. In HG/SS, the floors feel very small. The overall design also feels a lot less interesting. And the holes on the inside were removed, the shortcut is now an elevator which goes from the top floor down to the bottom. But the worst of all is Amphy's room.
It looks really nice in G/S/C, it follows on the design from the previous floors, while also having a bed and a table! Very suitable for Amphy and the trainer taking care of it. In HG/SS, it has nothing. The barrier around Amphy makes it feel like a prison. A major change for the worse IMO.
This is correct, her full name is Yvonne Gabena. But for some reason, X was never given a full name. I wonder why? And Yvette is very loosely based on a character from the games, a Sky Trainer on Route 11.
I agree, it is way better in G/S/C. Regarding the first boulder, I never thought of it as a "practice boulder", but looking at it from this perspective, it makes sense. I recently completed the Blackthorn Gym in my playthrough of VC Crystal, and I thought the first boulder felt very unnecessary. But if we see it as a practice boulder, it feels more logical.
In addition to the Blackthorn Gym, I think HG/SS changed the Ecruteak and Mahogany Gyms for the worse as well. The Ecruteak Gym gave me some serious trouble when I played G/S/C as a kid, it was so hard to figure out at first! But then I learned the solution, and I felt really stupid for not realizing it earlier. I think HG/SS changed it for the worse since the path is completely obvious from the start. As for the Mahogany Gym, I think it is just more fun with one big room rather than three smaller ones. It feels like it requires you to think a bit more in order to solve it that way.
Can't speak for the Kanto Gyms yet, I only arrived in Vermilion and beat Surge today, so it is a little early to say. And it has been 12 years since my last playthrough of HG/SS, so I don't remember much from the Kanto Gyms there.
Another area I think HG/SS changed for the worse is the Olivine Lighthouse.
I think it is pretty cool in G/S/C. Despite the blocky nature of the games, they still managed to make it feel round. The floors were fairly large and fun to explore, with several trainers and items. I also like how the shortcut down to the ground floor requires you to fall down several holes, it is a bit brutal but fun and unique. In HG/SS, the floors feel very small. The overall design also feels a lot less interesting. And the holes on the inside were removed, the shortcut is now an elevator which goes from the top floor down to the bottom. But the worst of all is Amphy's room.
It looks really nice in G/S/C, it follows on the design from the previous floors, while also having a bed and a table! Very suitable for Amphy and the trainer taking care of it. In HG/SS, it has nothing. The barrier around Amphy makes it feel like a prison. A major change for the worse IMO.
ftfy
But honestly Tulip is the worst. Worst Gym challenge (made me hate her before meeting her), worst concept, worst characterisation, worst design.
Bad bad bad. Iono says she’s done collabs with her, I’m disappointed. Bad Iono stop doing that.
Katy was a little bland, and Kofu and Poppy felt a bit like stereotypes that get overused in games, but I genuinely liked all the other Gym Leaders and E4 members.
Hate you forever though Tulip. Didn’t even want to invite her to the League Club.
Gyms really suffered when "heal team to full" got easier. If "wear the player down" is an acceptable way to make the final boss more difficult, then fighting trainers is a reasonable punishment for screwing up a puzzle. But now, with forced heals before the Gym Leader and an abundance of cash/healing items, fighting gym trainers is arguably a reward. Which makes stuff like the Cinnabar Island quiz or the Sootopolis Ice Path as an actual "get this right or suffer" challenge impossible. I think every recent gym has forced you to battle every trainer, which really limits how interesting they can make the already-basic puzzles. There's exceptions that are good, but sort of similar to my thoughts on HMs, I think GF is handcuffing themselves by not having the option of a "failure state" where the player has to take on like 30 fire-types in a row.
honestly i always left the gym for a pokémon center trip whenever i needed. time consuming to play the puzzle again, yes, but not that much that it'd be worth it to not do it. i think gamefreak realised this and just gave up because locking the gym would be perceived as too hard?
I've never faced a gym leader with my pokémon not in full health unless I was challenging myself, it's easy to beat every trainer on the gym and complete the puzzle, go to the pokémon center and come back to face the gym leader. I've always gave the wrong answers on the Blaine's puzzle too, it would be a waste of exp otherwise.
Doesn't help that the puzzles are usually very baby easy and the only thing making the gym take more than 2 minutes (at most) is the trainers. Especially since, if you know where to go, even some puzzles that were trial and error now take a very short amount of time.
Funnily, it's Trials that lock you in. But even then you can just use items. Still, more Alola credit.
Funnily, it's Trials that lock you in. But even then you can just use items. Still, more Alola credit.
Gym Puzzles were doing it correctly skips trainers are stupid, and also evil.
At least the Quiz things, stuff like Wallace gym ice puzzle is perfectly fine (great even) and you will probably fail on a first try. So "gym puzzles were you have to purposefully fail incredibly easy tasks to not skip trainers" would probably be more fitting.
Back in D/P I skipped all trainers in Fantima's Gym, skipping Driftloon and struggling to get the National Dex because kid me didn't know about the day-based encounter, so this is a bit of a personal grudge.
The quiz ones are also very boring on replays, especially the one in X/Y since it takes so long.
The ice gym in Sinnoh is one I usually like going through again, although I disliked it as a kid. Both of Skyla's Gyms are neat as well.
At least the Quiz things, stuff like Wallace gym ice puzzle is perfectly fine (great even) and you will probably fail on a first try. So "gym puzzles were you have to purposefully fail incredibly easy tasks to not skip trainers" would probably be more fitting.
Back in D/P I skipped all trainers in Fantima's Gym, skipping Driftloon and struggling to get the National Dex because kid me didn't know about the day-based encounter, so this is a bit of a personal grudge.
The quiz ones are also very boring on replays, especially the one in X/Y since it takes so long.
The ice gym in Sinnoh is one I usually like going through again, although I disliked it as a kid. Both of Skyla's Gyms are neat as well.
HGSS deliberately removed all instances of HMs being required in Gyms.
You know you can just talk to the trainers without even doing the quiz to fight them? The door'll still open in both Gens 1 and 3.
You can battle them even if you give them the right answer. I do it this way for my own amusement.
Edit: This conversation about gyms made me look at HGSS Blackthorn gym a little closer and now I see the chinese dragon layout in the lava, thank you everyone i hadn't see that before.
Last edited:
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
That's so but most of the gyms (Violet, Goldenrod, Ecruteak, Olivine, Mahogany) got a minor cosmetic overhaul rather than a complete redesign. They could have kept the puzzle the same and just made the boulders bridges activated by switches or something.
Violet was more than just cosmetic, you could skip the trainers.
Goldenrod is entirely different aside from being vaguely Clefairy shaped.
Ecruteak is literally nothing like the Gen 2 version.
Mahogany shares the fact that it's an ice puzzle and nothing else, it is literally split into multiple rooms.
Beyond replacing the Strength puzzle with the roto-bridges, Blackthorn's closer in overall design than Mahogany or Ecruteak.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Okay so cosmetic was the wrong word then but the changes I'm referring to are extremely small. Yes Violet added the outside path but the overall gym itself was basically the same, they didn't add a puzzle or any additional features.
I don't see how Goldenrod's is "entirely different"? The overall path through the gym is basically the same, there's added levels and trainers you can skip in both but the overall Clefairy theme is maintained. Likewise Ecruteak has a different shape but the basic puzzle of the gym is the same. Blackthorn's puzzle has pretty much nothing in common with the original beyond "path over lava".
I have to agree on the HGSS Blackthorn gym being worse.
Besides the points that were already mentioned, it just feels...more generic?
The lava looks boring compared to the cool bubbly astethic GSC had. (The Dragon hidden in the lava is neat though) The gym in GSC felt mysterious and foreboding in general, a place that you don't find elsewhere in the game.
While I very much like the way HGSS looks, there is also a special fondness I have for the original GSC colors...
I know this is mostly due to the "limited" GBC color palette but there is just something so crisp about them
Besides the points that were already mentioned, it just feels...more generic?
The lava looks boring compared to the cool bubbly astethic GSC had. (The Dragon hidden in the lava is neat though) The gym in GSC felt mysterious and foreboding in general, a place that you don't find elsewhere in the game.
While I very much like the way HGSS looks, there is also a special fondness I have for the original GSC colors...
I know this is mostly due to the "limited" GBC color palette but there is just something so crisp about them