Unpopular opinions

[Yung Dramps]

Curious about why Diantha tracks above Steven. Steven at least has a largely unique team while Diantha is overlapping with Gym Leaders and a rival.

The only thing she has going for her is the battle music, and I'd still argue Steven's is better.

I like how Diantha manages to use a team of 5 Kalos Pokemon and a Mega. Also her arena is awesome. Also Mega Gardevoir is stronger than people give it credit for (or maybe I just suck).

> Hau over Cynthia

I'm genuinely curious. Hau? How?

Leon really is underrated though, good battle. Shame Urshifu-Dark just pummels him, but it's a pretty good one.

I alluded to this with Steven but while Cynthia may have one of the better-made/stronger teams of any Champion she's just missing something more intangible for me. She's "only" a strong trainer, her fight lacks a more meaningful in-universe gravitas to really consider it peak like so many others do. On the flipside some time ago I reached the secret final stage of the Alolapill where Hau is my favorite rival so I actually appreciate the reversal in USUM and how it plays into his character. Kukui's still better ofc but unlike Wallace it actually feels like some measure of thought went into this change.

Leon is basically the perfect Champion battle and one of my favorite boss fights in the whole series. I really should devote a longer post to how brilliant this fight is but essentially it's the best-constructed team since Cynthia but now with unparalleled atmosphere, tons of thematic visual symbolism in Leon's design and animations and this incredible theme which never fails to get me ever-so-slightly emotional

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Side tangent: Cynthia has to be the most overrated trainer in the franchise. She's a good character - her design is great and her team is very strong - but the fandom's elevated her to these singularly legendary heights that she really hasn't deserved.

Cynthia has always been above-average as a boss but incredibly average as a character.

Thing is, "average" puts her on pretty good footing anyway, since this franchise isn't really one for strongly-written characters in the first place.

 

[StarAnarchyPeach]

Thing is, "average" puts her on pretty good footing anyway, since this franchise isn't really one for strongly-written characters in the first place.

*Cries in Volo appreciation*

 

[Bakugames]

i actually think that leons team in a vacuum is muuuch better than cynthias. like ok. spiritomb looks scary because it has no weaknesses (at the time) and then you remember it kinda does nothing. roserade can hit decently but its also weak to everything. gastrodon... well i love gastrodon but it just kinda sits there. her team is hard carried by having a garchomp in a game where getting an ice type is really annoying and where movesets are still in the transition stage from "dogshit" to "most pokemon can be somewhat useful".

if you replaced leon with cynthia, i genuienly think itd make swsh easier lol

 

[Yung Dramps]

True enlightenment is realizing Gigantamax Charizard is an infinitely cooler boss monster than Garchomp could ever hope to be. Not to say Chomper is bad but let's please not pretend that "KAIJU CHARIZARD WITH FIRE WINGS AND ARCANE SIGILS ON ITS GLOWING BELLY" is anything but a national treasure

If you were a Galarian citizen you would freak out at this every time without fail. You would cheer and scream and buy all the merchandise and posters. You would gorge on sigma Leon RoTok edits and pre-order his 400 page autobiography off Charizard alone. And he can back up the looks in-game too! Fire Blast/Air Slash/Solar Beam/Ancient Power is a great moveset for a Fire type to take advantage of Dynamax.

To stay in the theme of this thread, I would actively argue that Charizard DESERVED a boss fight like this. So many other popular franchise mascots had iconic in-game encounters associated with them but not the big orange lizard: Blue became The Blastoise Guy and he was not even the ace for Lance/Tucker/Red etc. Now we just need Legends Z-A or a future game to have a really strong NPC whose signature Pokemon is Greninja

 

[Samtendo09]

True enlightenment is realizing Gigantamax Charizard is an infinitely cooler boss monster than Garchomp could ever hope to be. Not to say Chomper is bad but let's please not pretend that "KAIJU CHARIZARD WITH FIRE WINGS AND ARCANE SIGILS ON ITS GLOWING BELLY" is anything but a national treasure

If you were a Galarian citizen you would freak out at this every time without fail. You would cheer and scream and buy all the merchandise and posters. You would gorge on sigma Leon RoTok edits and pre-order his 400 page autobiography off Charizard alone. And he can back up the looks in-game too! Fire Blast/Air Slash/Solar Beam/Ancient Power is a great moveset for a Fire type to take advantage of Dynamax.

To stay in the theme of this thread, I would actively argue that Charizard DESERVED a boss fight like this. So many other popular franchise mascots had iconic in-game encounters associated with them but not the big orange lizard: Blue became The Blastoise Guy and he was not even the ace for Lance/Tucker/Red etc. Now we just need Legends Z-A or a future game to have a really strong NPC whose signature Pokemon is Greninja

I have problems with Gigantamax that has more to do with gameplays (not enough differences vs Dynamax to worth using over most of the time) and roster than the designs, with very few exceptions, because at least the designs tries to feel like truly gigantic creatures.

As much as I find Charizard shoehorned as Leon’s ace, the Gigantamax form and the look, alongside the execution of it’s role in the boss fight, helped making it much easier pill to swallow. Not so much in the anime, though Journeys have it’s own writing issues in general and not exclusive about Leon and his Undefeatable Charizard.

 

[Bakugames]

i actually think that leons team in a vacuum is muuuch better than cynthias. like ok. spiritomb looks scary because it has no weaknesses (at the time) and then you remember it kinda does nothing. roserade can hit decently but its also weak to everything. gastrodon... well i love gastrodon but it just kinda sits there. her team is hard carried by having a garchomp in a game where getting an ice type is really annoying and where movesets are still in the transition stage from "dogshit" to "most pokemon can be somewhat useful".

if you replaced leon with cynthia, i genuienly think itd make swsh easier lol

i want to add to this: this is why i think the fandom doesnt understand that champions like cynthia do not work anymore. they are a boss design that only works when the player has limited resources and the boss capitalizes on that. its a big meaty scary thing that could be defeated pretty easily if you had better access to its weaknesses, and guess what: thats exactly what modern games give. cynthia would be as easy or even easier than leon because she doesnt get to hide behind bad ice types, you can catch almost any ice type in the wild area, give it ice beam/blizzard and destroy her team with no sweat.

the bosses need to be designed with that accessibility in mind. im not saying they have to be insanely hard, but rather their design philosophy needs to change so that their default is "challenging but not awful for a kid to defeat if they try enough"

 

[Mex]

i want to add to this: this is why i think the fandom doesnt understand that champions like cynthia do not work anymore. they are a boss design that only works when the player has limited resources and the boss capitalizes on that. its a big meaty scary thing that could be defeated pretty easily if you had better access to its weaknesses, and guess what: thats exactly what modern games give. cynthia would be as easy or even easier than leon because she doesnt get to hide behind bad ice types, you can catch almost any ice type in the wild area, give it ice beam/blizzard and destroy her team with no sweat.

the bosses need to be designed with that accessibility in mind. im not saying they have to be insanely hard, but rather their design philosophy needs to change so that their default is "challenging but not awful for a kid to defeat if they try enough"

I feel another part of it is just the fact that, for the average player, you're probably not going to have any idea what a Garchomp is when you fight Cynthia for the first time, so using Ice Types against it isn't necessarily obvious. Same thing with Spiritomb. This also goes for Steven, where you'll have never fought a Metagross prior, or Lance where you'll probably have only encountered a Dragonite by fighting him in the previous game he was in. Information scarcity that is uncommon these days, especially in the last two games.

Leon's teams include a grand total of 5 galarian mons between them, with three of those being the starters and a fourth being a regional variant's evolution, and his ace pokemon is a Charizard, which you are going to know the type of if you've been playing Pokemon for any amount of time.

While with Geeta, tera is removing part of that with her by displaying one of her Pokemon's types every turn its on the field past the initial send out, and the rest of her team involves 2 old pokemon, a past gen mon's evolution, and two pokemon you're guaranteed to have fought before (with Kofu and Tulip using them on their teams). Glimmora is going to be the only unknown factor for most players, and Tera is removing the lack of knowledge on it you'd normally have.

As a whole, I do really like Leon as a boss fight. His team is still pretty imposing, Aegislash and Haxorus are both Pokemon that have been notably strong, Haxorus being a previous champion ace, Aegislash being a dominant singles threat for the past two gens. He uses the gen's pseudo without it even being the ace, the "uses the unused starter" trope was used for Kukui two games prior, and while Seismitoad and Rhyperior aren't necessarily used on super notable teams (Seismitoad has Ghetsis at least, though it's just a side mon for him), they still fit the vibe of "this is a mon a serious champion would use" to me.

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

I feel another part of it is just the fact that, for the average player, you're probably not going to have any idea what a Garchomp is when you fight Cynthia for the first time, so using Ice Types against it isn't necessarily obvious. Same thing with Spiritomb. This also goes for Steven, where you'll have never fought a Metagross prior, or Lance where you'll probably have only encountered a Dragonite by fighting him in the previous game he was in. Information scarcity that is uncommon these days, especially in the last two games.

Leon's teams include a grand total of 5 galarian mons between them, with three of those being the starters and a fourth being a regional variant's evolution, and his ace pokemon is a Charizard, which you are going to know the type of if you've been playing Pokemon for any amount of time.

While with Geeta, tera is removing part of that with her by displaying one of her Pokemon's types every turn its on the field past the initial send out, and the rest of her team involves 2 old pokemon, a past gen mon's evolution, and two pokemon you're guaranteed to have fought before (with Kofu and Tulip using them on their teams). Glimmora is going to be the only unknown factor for most players, and Tera is removing the lack of knowledge on it you'd normally have.

It is true that this information scarcity has gotten much less common but I would argue that AI Sada/Turo are the perfect example of it. They have an entire team of exotic new Paradox Pokemon, half of which you've never seen before and the other half only having been encountered once, with unintuitive typings you can only guess at based on their present-day counterparts.

 

[Hugin]

Leon was really the best Champion. His whole deal of "Clearly a former Player Character" is a fun gimmick, his team is composed of mons that are not only good in-game, but have an out-of-game rep as OP as hell, and the Galar gyms/league battles are INCREDIBLE aesthetically. I will happily complain about SV, but they nailed Leon.

Curious about why Diantha tracks above Steven. Steven at least has a largely unique team while Diantha is overlapping with Gym Leaders and a rival.

The only thing she has going for her is the battle music, and I'd still argue Steven's is better.

People(including the devs, to be fair) overrate the need to keep teams unique. Yes, both Korrina and Diantha use Hawlucha, but that doesn't matter significantly IMO. Will you remember that, or will you remember SD and strong neutral coverage?

Now, I don't think Diantha is perfect, but her team is potent enough and the scenery is cool. Given how before this point, the most challenging bosses in XY were random route trainers, she's fine.

The 3rd games in a set frequently make some really weird changes to the story that seem entirely unnecessary.

The Cave of Origin gets reduced to an almost out-of-place footnote in the jump from RS to E, but at least that kind of makes sense because it's hard to integrate all 3 of Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza into the story as it is; something had to change.

But why did they feel like the game needed a different league champion? Wallace is such a nothing character.

I hate Wallace(and Juan) so much. They could have done so many other things to give us a different champion and make Steven a post-game challenge, instead they ADDED another water-type specialist to a game with a water-type legendary, water-type evil team, water-type gym, and all late-game routes are Surf-based. Anything else would have been better.

 

[Karxrida]

People(including the devs, to be fair) overrate the need to keep teams unique. Yes, both Korrina and Diantha use Hawlucha, but that doesn't matter significantly IMO. Will you remember that, or will you remember SD and strong neutral coverage?

Now, I don't think Diantha is perfect, but her team is potent enough and the scenery is cool. Given how before this point, the most challenging bosses in XY were random route trainers, she's fine.

All I remember is that I was supremely overleveled because it was XY so she put up absolutely no resistance.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Will you remember that, or will you remember SD and strong neutral coverage?

Diantha's Hawlucha reveals the folly of Flying Press as a move, because it would have strong neutral coverage if it just used Acrobatics + HJK or whatever, but instead the weird dual-type move means it gets thoroughly walled by Ghosts and mostly walled by Poison-types, which is actually very poor neutral coverage for three moves. It doesn't even have a neutral move against Magnezone!

I agree that team overlap doesn't really matter, though

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Side tangent: Cynthia has to be the most overrated trainer in the franchise. She's a good character - her design is great and her team is very strong - but the fandom's elevated her to these singularly legendary heights that she really hasn't deserved.

I agree.

She deserves it tho

I alluded to this with Steven but while Cynthia may have one of the better-made/stronger teams of any Champion she's just missing something more intangible for me. She's "only" a strong trainer, her fight lacks a more meaningful in-universe gravitas to really consider it peak like so many others do.

It's her lack of showcased battle prowess during the story.

Her being in the Distortion World was a huge miss because she got to Cyrus first, and then was there just chilling.

So she was roaming the region, helping out players and aura farming, but when it was time for action, she was just yapping with Cyrus.


To be fair, Champions should be evaluated in a blind run, as pretty much all of them are completely abused whenever you know as little as their team composition, or even just their ace.

Cynthia's battle was extremely well-designed in many ways, but she's not hard. The big, bad Garchomp doesn't have a Yache Berry, no one needs to worry about it.
But again, none of these fools are tough.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Her being in the Distortion World was a huge miss because she got to Cyrus first, and then was there just chilling.

This is another thing to file under "awkward changes made by 3rd game."

Can we talk about Cyrus for a minute and how he's a markedly less interesting character in Platinum? In DP he really comes across as a true-believer in the stuff he says about building a strife-free world. Gives him a genuinely creepy vibe that other villains don't generally have and really underscores the cult-like demeanor of Team Galactic.

In Platinum there's a bunch of extra dialogue where he explicitly lays out that he's just conning his lackeys and putting on a front. And nothing in the Distortion World regarding him or Cynthia feels like it does anything positive for either character. And Charon and Looker just feel like pointless filler.

Like, mechanically, Platinum over DP makes a case for being the best 3rd game improvement, but everything done to the story and characters feels like a neutral change at best. The sort of thing that makes me wonder if some mandate came down to shoehorn in specific things for the sake of making it more consistent with the anime or other media. I never played the 3DS games, but I remember people being up in arms about changes made to Lusamine for presumably those kinds of reasons.

 

[Bakugames]

but I remember people being up in arms about changes made to Lusamine for presumably those kinds of reasons.

tbf anime lusamine and usum lusamine are not nearly that close. anime lusamine is much... nicer ig? the anime is more interested in the nihilego interactions and her memory loss-weird redemption arc. usum leaves that open ended as we dont actually see lusamine being a better person and rather just being lucid enough to seek a path of recovery with lillie

 

[leafsaber47]

I don't treat the Legends games as core series games. Yes, the Hisui additions did make their way into Scarlet/Violet, but Legends: Arceus (and thus the upcoming Legends: Z-A) are much starkly different from the rest of their ilk, particularly in how battling works, that the experience I have in most other Pokémon games with the traditional battle system doesn't translate well to games like them.

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

Yes, the Hisui additions did make their way into Scarlet/Violet

If introducing a new species of Pokemon classified a game as main series, Pokemon GO would be a main series game due to Meltan.

 

[Esserise]

In Platinum there's a bunch of extra dialogue where he explicitly lays out that he's just conning his lackeys and putting on a front. And nothing in the Distortion World regarding him or Cynthia feels like it does anything positive for either character. And Charon and Looker just feel like pointless filler.

I’m gonna push back on this a bit because while Platinum makes it clear that he’s just conning Team Galactic, it’s not in the sense that he doesn’t genuinely believe in what he says — he’s conning them in the sense that he’s allowing them think they will have any part in the world he plans to create, because allowing them to believe that makes them useful to him. But he still scales Mount Coronet to summon and shackle the gods to do his bidding to remake the world.

If anything, I’d say his ideology is more genuine in Platinum. Not that I have a problem with genocidal ideologues being revealed to be short-sighted hypocritical morons (hell, my favorite Pokémon villain is Lysandre largely for that reason), but I think it makes sense that Cyrus is so convinced of his unique perspective of the fundamentally flawed human spirit that the only person he trusts to remain truly committed to enlightened stoicism for eternity is himself, rather than himself and the bowlcut army.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I’m gonna push back on this a bit because while Platinum makes it clear that he’s just conning Team Galactic, it’s not in the sense that he doesn’t genuinely believe in what he says — he’s conning them in the sense that he’s allowing them think they will have any part in the world he plans to create, because allowing them to believe that makes them useful to him. But he still scales Mount Coronet to summon and shackle the gods to do his bidding to remake the world.

If anything, I’d say his ideology is more genuine in Platinum. Not that I have a problem with genocidal ideologues being revealed to be short-sighted hypocritical morons (hell, my favorite Pokémon villain is Lysandre largely for that reason), but I think it makes sense that Cyrus is so convinced of his unique perspective of the fundamentally flawed human spirit that the only person he trusts to remain truly committed to enlightened stoicism for eternity is himself, rather than himself and the bowlcut army.

Nope.

He even devolves into a cliche sputtering rant after his defeat in Platinum but not in DP. He's just straight-up less authentic in that game.

 

[Merritt]

Nope.

He even devolves into a cliche sputtering rant after his defeat in Platinum but not in DP. He's just straight-up less authentic in that game.

Honestly I think it's better that way. He hasn't given up, but even though he wants a world without spirit and claims to be an embodiment of what that is, in actuality he's not. When things end in a way that make it clear that his plan can't work, he breaks down in anger and futile, useless emotion.

It's because part of the message of the game is that the pieces that make up "spirit" are essential parts of all living things, including humanity. And even if Cyrus tries to pretend otherwise, he's still just human. He was never right.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Honestly I think it's better that way. He hasn't given up, but even though he wants a world without spirit and claims to be an embodiment of what that is, in actuality he's not. When things end in a way that make it clear that his plan can't work, he breaks down in anger and futile, useless emotion.

It's because part of the message of the game is that the pieces that make up "spirit" are essential parts of all living things, including humanity. And even if Cyrus tries to pretend otherwise, he's still just human. He was never right.

And literally all of this worked better when it was understated and merely implied in the first version of the game, rather than beaten over the player's head.

And despite Platinum being as subtle as a brick about that, it somehow missed the opportunity to point out that the Distortion World basically is the perfect strife-free domain that Cyrus is looking for, so he may as well just chill in there for the rest of his days.

 

[Esserise]

Nope.

He even devolves into a cliche sputtering rant after his defeat in Platinum but not in DP. He's just straight-up less authentic in that game.

A sputtering rant in which he vents his frustration and is self-aware enough to acknowledge that he himself is an inescapably flawed being according to his own ideals. If spirit is a fundamental component of the universe, which is why he wishes to dismantle the universe as it is, then he himself must have an inherently flawed spirit as well, and he blames his outburst on this fact:

“Silence! Enough of your blathering! That's how you justify spirit as something worthwhile?! That is merely humans hoping, deluding themselves that they are happy and safe! The emotions roiling inside me... Rage, hatred, frustration... These ugly emotions arise because of my own incomplete spirit! ...Enough. We will never see eye to eye. This, I promise you. I will break the secrets of the world. With that knowledge, I will create my own complete and perfect world. One day, you will awaken to a world of my creation. A world without spirit.”

This is a guy who is deeply hurt and dissatisfied with himself, but who identifies the cause of that dissatisfaction as something external that can simply be cut out of the equation, and so he strives to do exactly that in order to obtain a kind of inner peace. Until then, he tries to act like an emotionless machine because intentionally numbing himself hurts less than feeling what he really feels, but when pushed to the edge, those repressed feelings all come spewing out. In other words, he is a flawed person with actual, human responses to the world and to his own complex emotions. It’s not just that he truly believes in his ideology, but that he has an actual reason for believing in his ideology, that makes him a more fully realized and “authentic” character than DP Cyrus, who believes that that the human spirit is weak and incomplete because… idk he just does?

The thing is, even True Believers don’t believe in the things they do purely because it sounds good to them. They are people with their own desires, flaws, emotional responses, idiosyncrasies, experiences, relationships, and exposure to ideas and morals, all of which inform the choices they make to believe in what they do. DP Cyrus doesn’t have any of that, though, so literally all he is capable of doing is spouting impersonal, broad, baseless ideology. Nothing is ever really implied about him as a person; his personal perspective is so inscrutible in DP that he may as well be seeking to remake the world so that the sky is green instead of blue because he thinks that the sky being blue is why people can’t get along. Where does his belief actually come from? That’s the aspect that only Platinum takes time to address.

 

[Karxrida]

In addition to what has already been said: it's just really fun and satisfying to see supposedly stoic villains experience a massive crashout when their plans fall apart. They can no longer maintain the facade so the mask falls off and you get to see what they truly are: pathetic.

Just because it's cliché doesn't mean it's bad.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

And despite Platinum being as subtle as a brick about that, it somehow missed the opportunity to point out that the Distortion World basically is the perfect strife-free domain that Cyrus is looking for, so he may as well just chill in there for the rest of his days.

One of the animated shorts implies just that.

That son of a gun actually got exactly what he wanted, but not in the way he wanted it.

In addition to what has already been said: it's just really fun and satisfying to see supposedly stoic villains have a massive crashout when their plans fall apart. They can no longer maintain the facade so the mask falls off and you get to see what they truly are: pathetic.

Just because it's cliché doesn't mean it's bad.

Funny, I was just thinking about this because of a different game this morning.

A well-executed classic standard is something to be praised, not discarded.

It's just like food. You can go for perfect execution on traditional breakfast recipes, or you can be a pretentious prick and mix coffee with orange juice because of some artsy platitude like "This blend showcases the bitterness of the working adult as they must leave the comfort of their home to work, but also the sweetness of living to see one more day".

Sure, it's a beautiful sentiment, but once you drink that shit, you're going to think otherwise hella quick.

Of course, Cyrus should be mad at the player (and Giratina) running his pockets and foiling his plans right when he's supposed to have his new world at his fingertips. Who wouldn't? It wouldn't even be believable otherwise.

 

[pika pal]

tbf anime lusamine and usum lusamine are not nearly that close. anime lusamine is much... nicer ig? the anime is more interested in the nihilego interactions and her memory loss-weird redemption arc. usum leaves that open ended as we dont actually see lusamine being a better person and rather just being lucid enough to seek a path of recovery with lillie

The sort of thing that makes me wonder if some mandate came down to shoehorn in specific things for the sake of making it more consistent with the anime or other media. I never played the 3DS games, but I remember people being up in arms about changes made to Lusamine for presumably those kinds of reasons.

Anime Lusamine just flat out isn't a villain, even in the "well-intention-ed extremist" way that USUM tries to frame her behavior for the new Necrozma conflict. By all accounts she's not in the vein of Cyrus or Lysandre being reinterpretations for the same role, she's an outright different character meant to fill a different niche and with all her behaviors and actions rewritten in turn. Most tellingly, Lusamine does not WANT to leave things behind for Ultra Space, she is abducted as a result of protecting Lillie and recognizing that her (much less harsh and clearly unintentional in its wrongs) parenting has hurt her children. Compared to the ambiguity of the 3DS games, all of Lusamine's distinctly immoral behavior is laid on the Nihilego toxins influencing her brain, as she does not display behavior in line with it before or after the Mother Beast incident. Compare how Cyrus, Ghetsis, and Lysandre all very clearly share the same outline of "I am going to use my organization to capture a Legendary Pokemon and then forcibly bend/destroy the world and society to my desires" whether it's Palkia, Dialga, N's Zekrom/Reshiram, Kyurem, Xerneas/Yveltal, or Zygarde.

The reason people dislike USUM Lusamine is because she simply doesn't make any sense in the role she's now given. By most indications, she shares the same history of being an overly stifling mother, Lillie still has her Nihilego-esque outfit that was an expression of that control in Lusamine, Gladion being effectively disowned for freeing an abused Lab Animal, freezing a bunch of the Aether Paradise Pokemon,and working with a gang to kidnap her own kid for a plan that could potentially kill Nebby. Where SM framed all these as villainous actions that she was off her rocker for not recognizing as wrong, USUM puts her in a position of knowing what she's doing but doing it anyway to the point some actions don't make any sense andflat out don't forward her goals (Nihilego has nothing to do with the Necrozma conflict compared to her general UB obsession and it being the first live sighting in the plot). Anime Lusamine seems reasonably popular for what she is among the anime fandom, which tells me USUM's issue is not that she's different, but that she's terribly written: Pokemon antagonists are frequently straightforward, but rarely are they contradictory in their actions vs their goals.