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Like a major thing that separates Pokemon from most of its 1990s contemporaries is that your party doesn't really consist of "characters" in the traditional RPG sense. They're just creatures that the player character uses.

Can you explain what you mean by that, because in all honesty if were going by gen 1 obtaining pokemon and tailoring them to what you see fit isnt that much different from something like final fantasy were you get party members as you go, level them up and teach them stronger moves (hell the job system is almost like evolving your mons in a sense).

Also if I could put my foot in the ring, I see RBY in the same way I look at alot of first games especially from that era or earlier. (Final fantasy 1, Zelda 1, Battle network 1 etc.) Where I like the game more because of what it brought rather than its actual mechanincs and gameplay which is good for a revist but not something that can keep my interest for long. (Tbh I think I can say that for all the main series games sad to say)
 
I've just never really been able to buy into the concept of "friendship" with Pokemon in the manner that the series attempts to dictate it, particulalry in the first games. Pokemon is functionally and fundamentally a franchise about cockfighting with a thin in-universe excuse of "Pokemon love to fight!" papered over it to soften its image. This is especially true in gen 1, which has virtually nothing to do outside of capturing and battling.

I actually agree with this part vis-à-vis Gen 1 specifically, but mostly chalk it up to the series still trying to find its footing. "Pokemon actually are our friends and they love punching each other in the face" is established from the get-go, but at the same time, they're still treated as mysterious (pocket) monsters to be controlled and contained. Many trainers, who are not villainous in any terms, use whips, including Sabrina; you can gamble for Pokemon from the yakuza with no consequences (in fact, you have to do this if you want to complete the dex thanks to Porygon); throwing rocks at endangered species in the Safari Zone to provoke them is treated as a valid strategy in order to obtain them. There's a reason all of these aspects have been phased out as the series has progressed - it clashes really hard with the notion that these creatures are supposed to be friends.

I think this partially stems from the implication that, in Gen 1 and 2's continuity, Pokemon are a relatively recent development in the history of Earth, not an established species in a fictional world altogether. They're less an established part of the world's ecosystem and moreso this bizarre phenomenon, with its research still in its infancy. Compare and contrast Professor Elm's reaction to seeing Mr. Pokemon's Togepi egg in Gens 2 and 4, and hearing that it hatched:

"This? But... Is it a Pokémon Egg? If it is, it is a great discovery! ... "What? That Pokémon!?! The Egg hatched! So, Pokémon are born from Eggs... No, perhaps not all Pokémon are. Wow, there's still a lot of research to be done. Thanks, <player>! You're helping unravel Pokémon mysteries for us!

"Huh? This is an... Egg, isn't it? This Egg may be something I've never seen...still it's just an Egg. Mr. Pokémon is always fascinated by Eggs. Well, since he gave it to us, we might as well find out what secret it holds. I'll keep it for a while to find out about the Egg." ..."What? That Pokémon!? Hmm… As far as I know, there is not a Pokémon like this in Johto… Just like Mr. Pokémon was saying over the phone…

Eggs are an earthshattering discovery about Pokemon reproduction in Gen 2, but in Gen 4... eggs are routine. I hatched 1.2k Goldeens last week while shiny hunting and I've flooded the local ecosystem with them, big deal. The real discovery is that there are Togepi in Johto. There's just less mystery at play as the series progresses, and so the relationship between humans and Pokemon in-world becomes a lot more firmly established than it was in earlier generations. The humans of Generation 1 don't have this bond established in their world yet, so they're understood as much more mysterious creatures that are to be controlled and contained just as much as they are befriended.

The entire series has this fundamental cognitive dissonance between Pokemon being equals and also being creatures/pets that are captured and owned by You, The Player; the later gens just smooth it out a lot more so the premise goes down easier. Gen 1's cognitive dissonance is just louder than the rest of the series by virtue of the concept being new and envisioned as a monster-collection RPG rather than an installment in a massive multimedia franchise for children.
 
Can you explain what you mean by that, because in all honesty if were going by gen 1 obtaining pokemon and tailoring them to what you see fit isnt that much different from something like final fantasy were you get party members as you go, level them up and teach them stronger moves (hell the job system is almost like evolving your mons in a sense).
A typical RPG party will consist of distinct characters who have highly motivated personal reasons to get involved in the quest. Something related to their own personal circumstances, goals, grudges, etc.

Even something as early as Phantasy Star (1987) has decent characterization in this regard: each of the 4 playable characters has their own separate and well-established motivations for either starting or joining the quest, and most of them have direct ties to some of the boss encounters that you fight along the way. Alis starts the quest to avenge her brother's death. Myau joins in exchange for rescuing his master. Odin joins as repayment for being rescued and for the opportunity to slay Medusa. Lutz only really joins because you go to the trouble of getting a government summons to get him, but he still has something of a mini training arc in the battle with his mentor. Point is: the game is written in such a way as to give each of its playable characters motivation and reward along the journey.

Your party in Pokemon doesn't join you to fulfill their own goals. The player character catches them to fulfill theirs.

I think this partially stems from the implication that, in Gen 1 and 2's continuity, Pokemon are a relatively recent development in the history of Earth, not an established species in a fictional world altogether. They're less an established part of the world's ecosystem and moreso this bizarre phenomenon, with its research still in its infancy. Compare and contrast Professor Elm's reaction to seeing Mr. Pokemon's Togepi egg in Gens 2 and 4, and hearing that it hatched:
I always just took this as a poor reconciliation of new game mechanics with world-building. The idea of Pokemon eggs being a "new scientific discovery" came across as farcical on its face because it makes the Pokemon Professors look incredibly incompetent. It would've just made more sense to me if Gold/Silver treated them as a natural established fact of life and just ignored the question of "why weren't eggs in Red/Blue" altogether rather than try to make some weird justification about their sudden discovery.

I'll admit that the idea of the Pokemon themselves as a relatively new scientific discovery is a pretty interesting way to square this, and something I never really gave much though to. Still, they can't be too new to the continuity, seeing as how Oak and Agatha are implied to be rival Pokemon trainers from their youth.

EDIT: I want to touch upon this a little more:
I actually agree with this part vis-à-vis Gen 1 specifically, but mostly chalk it up to the series still trying to find its footing. "Pokemon actually are our friends and they love punching each other in the face" is established from the get-go, but at the same time, they're still treated as mysterious (pocket) monsters to be controlled and contained. Many trainers, who are not villainous in any terms, use whips, including Sabrina; you can gamble for Pokemon from the yakuza with no consequences (in fact, you have to do this if you want to complete the dex thanks to Porygon); throwing rocks at endangered species in the Safari Zone to provoke them is treated as a valid strategy in order to obtain them. There's a reason all of these aspects have been phased out as the series has progressed - it clashes really hard with the notion that these creatures are supposed to be friends.
There are a lot of reasons to read the original world of Pokemon Red & Blue as much less "utopian" than later entries portray it as. You touch upon many of them here.

Another big part of it for me is that Red & Blue are adjacent to Pulseman in my mind, which was the most recent work that Game Freak had released before Pokemon. There's a decent amount of overlapping themes between the two games, particularly when it comes to beings traveling in and out of cyberspace, and the whims of the mad scientists who utilize that tech.

In fact, it is the use of that technology itself that seems to have driven the villain of Pulseman mad with power in the first place. If you're familiar with the game (or even just heard of it) but haven't seen a proper breakdown of the intro dialogue between the villain and his creation, I think you should check it out because it's actually pretty cool:


Pulseman is the child born from this union, and the thrust of the game is that Pulseman ultimately has to kill his own father.

Even the computer interface featured in this scene is ripped straight out of The Fly:

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Pretty heavy stuff.
 
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According to the Lost Pokedex, Pokemon have been known about since at least the 18th century, though only 30 species were known about back then. Evolution wasn't understood until 1899, and by then there were only 80 species discovered, with 150 by 1996.

Pokemon knowledge started slowly but sped up exponentially, doubling and then doubling again over the course of about 200 years. I suppose it's not TOO much of a stretch that stuff like eggs could be a new discovery, only for Pokemon to be common knowledge as if they had always been there just a few years later. It seems the bizarre decision to connect Pokemon with computers was rather prophetic.

Also Gen 2 casually invents a fucking time machine to explain trading with Gen 1 so if you want an in-universe explanation for that meme of retroactive continuity you can thank Bill.
 
When I look back on the RBY era the thing that stands out to me about it is the undercurrent of greasy urban sleaziness which permeates not just the games but often their tie-in material. The deluge of Poison types, the game corner and accompanying Gambler trainer class, Team Rocket's presence as a worldly mafia rather than over-the-top themed genocide enjoyers and the above-average quotient of sexual humor (heated electric tale of pikachu moment). Hell, the catching tutorial is given by the town drunk!

This honestly is a big part of the reason why I have come around to the "RBY is at least more memorable than FRLG" position. It's certainly a unique vibe that future Kanto material has largely watered down and was being phased out in favor of the brighter more colorful baseline tone we're familiar with as early as Gold & Silver. I would love to see a Legends Kanto that tries to tap back into this, although I'm unsure how doable this would be under modern brand guidelines
 
Like a major thing that separates Pokemon from most of its 1990s contemporaries is that your party doesn't really consist of "characters" in the traditional RPG sense. They're just creatures that the player character uses.
While this is technically true, it is ignoring the fact that the 90s were a transitory period for console RPGs where more sophisticated writing was becoming a bigger focus. Pokémon has a lot more in common with predecessors RPGs, such as the highly influential Dragon Quest III, that treated their characters as nothing more than stat blocks to fill out the party. It's less sticking out and more being behind the times if anything, though existing on the Game Boy with its lower expectations allowed for some leeway there.

The real reason Pokémon stuck out was because it was a very early entry in the Mons genre (or whatever it's called) with a high degree of customization (I want to say higher but I don't know enough about the other Mons games of that era), had unique social features due to being on the Game Boy, and also the only game of its type to be available in West to my knowledge.
 
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The real reason Pokémon stuck out was because it was a very early entry in the Mons genre (or whatever it's called) with a high degree of customization, and also the only one to be available in West to my knowledge. Being on the Game Boy also helped a lot because it enabled social features that couldn't be taken advantage of by the Mons games that existed on console (Dragon Quest V and SMT I think?).
SMT also sticks out in this respect because Monsters/Demons were a resource in the game to the point that fusing them together and having them functionally disappear in favor of the new upgrade was part and parcel to the idea, as was also the case in DQ Monsters in 1998 (DQ5 they were basically randomly recruitable party members that otherwise functioned the same as the playable humans).

Pokemon even proposing a token idea that the Monsters were beings with identities or life rather than resources does stick out considering prior games with playable monsters regarded them as such. Even in DQ, monsters were typically just wildlife dangers that the player could tame or capitalize on rather than creatures to cooperate with or with the same "right" to the world.
 
When I look back on the RBY era the thing that stands out to me about it is the undercurrent of greasy urban sleaziness which permeates not just the games but often their tie-in material. The deluge of Poison types, the game corner and accompanying Gambler trainer class, Team Rocket's presence as a worldly mafia rather than over-the-top themed genocide enjoyers and the above-average quotient of sexual humor (heated electric tale of pikachu moment). Hell, the catching tutorial is given by the town drunk!

This honestly is a big part of the reason why I have come around to the "RBY is at least more memorable than FRLG" position. It's certainly a unique vibe that future Kanto material has largely watered down and was being phased out in favor of the brighter more colorful baseline tone we're familiar with as early as Gold & Silver. I would love to see a Legends Kanto that tries to tap back into this, although I'm unsure how doable this would be under modern brand guidelines

Don't forget they later bowdlerized the pervert at Erika's gym to sth like "wow I like strong trainers!".

But for me, Cycling Road in Let's Go is the worst example. Not just because it's no longer a cycling road, but in the original games it was also this spot for delinquents. As soon as you leave Celadon from the west, you are met with VARIOUS Bikers congregated in a small space and all of them ready to fight. I like how this adds to Kanto's atmosphere of urban's sleaziness, since no one is really bothered how unsafe this public cycling road is despite being close to the biggest and richest city of Kanto. In Let's Go's world, delinquency is not an issue anymore, only Team Rocket is allowed to be the sole problem to Kanto apparently.

Also shoutout to FRLG to let a non-evil team group be the villains, even if it was for one very short (filler?) arc.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Kanto_Pokémon_Federation
 
Calling Gen 3 archaic while also seemingly ignoring the more archaic elements of Gen 1 that I already mentioned seems a tad hypocritical to me, or at least selective. The Gen 3 games also connect to Colosseum and XD for 3D battling so that's not strictly a point in Gen 1's favor (unless you mean Stadium 1 specifically for some reason?).

There's nothing wrong with saying you prefer RBY over FRLG, but trying to make an objective-sounding statement about how the former is better is a little dumb lol.
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You see, I find Gen 3 extremely archaic.

It's in that weird in-between of being modern enough to have EVs, natures, and enough moves for types to minimally function (for the most part), but it doesn't have the modern split.

Gen 1 has a ton of jank, but it's very unique. So, to me, there's more value in that unique experience than the sterilized version that doesn't even connect to Stadium 1. :mehowth:
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Calling Gen 3 archaic while also seemingly ignoring the more archaic elements of Gen 1 that I already mentioned seems a tad hypocritical to me, or at least selective.
I didn't ignore them. I outright said I prefer RBY's janky elements because they're more unique and fun than FRLG's. Yes, they're even more archaic, but they are also a different experience compared to Gen 3's baby steps into the current mechanics, which, in my opinion, feel worse than Gen 4's.

The Gen 3 games also connect to Colosseum and XD for 3D battling so that's not strictly a point in Gen 1's favor (unless you mean Stadium 1 specifically for some reason?).
As a matter of fact, I do.

You can do a lot more with your mons in Stadium 1 than just multiplayer battles/trading in the Orre games.


It ain't an overly complex idea. I don't prefer RBY in spite of its jank. I prefer it because of it.
 
But for me, Cycling Road in Let's Go is the worst example. Not just because it's no longer a cycling road, but in the original games it was also this spot for delinquents. As soon as you leave Celadon from the west, you are met with VARIOUS Bikers congregated in a small space and all of them ready to fight. I like how this adds to Kanto's atmosphere of urban's sleaziness, since no one is really bothered how unsafe this public cycling road is despite being close to the biggest and richest city of Kanto.
A friend of mine once commented on how FRLG arguably takes on a slightly darker tone than RBY in this specific regard because these scenes come off more threatening when you're playing as a female protagonist.
 
You know I was referencing your earlier comment from a couple pages ago that started this little convo, right? Maybe don't be a smartass with your detective Pepe emote if you're going to overlook something.

I didn't ignore them. I outright said I prefer RBY's janky elements because they're more unique and fun than FRLG's. Yes, they're even more archaic, but they are also a different experience compared to Gen 3's baby steps into the current mechanics, which, in my opinion, feel worse than Gen 4's.
This is still selective enforcement. "It's more archaic than this other thing I criticized for being archaic but it doesn't count because I like it" isn't an honest critique.

As a matter of fact, I do.

You can do a lot more with your mons in Stadium 1 than just multiplayer battles/trading in the Orre games.
I mean fair, but you could have made that more clear the first time.

It ain't an overly complex idea. I don't prefer RBY in spite of its jank. I prefer it because of it.
I already acknowledged this viewpoint. Hell, I didn't even question why you liked RBY more. I'm no stranger to liking a game more than another that I think is "objectively" better. My initial query was about why you thought RBY was overall better than FRLG.
 
It is completely legitimate for people to critique subjective opinions if they don't make any sense. If I were to argue one reason why I love a game is because it rebels against the traditions of an industry more concerned with rushing out quick games rather than taking time to put quality in their games and that it bucks the trends of the gaming industry, it would be pretty weird if the game I described was a buggy early-access open-world crafting game now wouldn't it?
 
It is completely legitimate for people to critique subjective opinions if they don't make any sense. If I were to argue one reason why I love a game is because it rebels against the traditions of an industry more concerned with rushing out quick games rather than taking time to put quality in their games and that it bucks the trends of the gaming industry, it would be pretty weird if the game I described was a buggy early-access open-world crafting game now wouldn't it?
I mean, Pokemon does in a sense defy said traditions. Most big name games have both high ambition and polish, high polish but low ambition, or both low ambition and polish. Pokemon is one of the only big name games with high ambition but low polish. That section of the punnett square is usually reserved for indie games (not to say there aren't indies in the other three quadrents).
 
I mean, Pokemon does in a sense defy said traditions. Most big name games have both high ambition and polish, high polish but low ambition, or both low ambition and polish. Pokemon is one of the only big name games with high ambition but low polish. That section of the punnett square is usually reserved for indie games (not to say there aren't indies in the other three quadrents).
I wasn't referring to Pokémon with that. Palworld kinda, but there's just so many early-access open-world crafting games out there, it really doesn't have to be a specific game which is part of the point there. If your argument for why you like something is directly contradicted by your own argument, it opens itself up to critique even if what you are arguing about is pure opinion.
 
It is completely legitimate for people to critique subjective opinions if they don't make any sense.
What needs further clarification? I enjoy Gen 1's unique mechanics, like speed-based crits, full stat exp. allocation, connectivity to Stadium 1, Razor Leaf and Slash being stupid moves, Hyper Beam actually being a functional move, Wrap + Toxic being hilariously oppressive, Psychic being so busted that it actually makes Mewtwo as strong as advertised...

Meanwhile, what I do not enjoy about Gen 3 are Grass-types being objectively worse than Gen 1, which makes using Venusaur miserable, the IV/EV system, which I hate to this day, having to reset a ton of catches because of bad natures, mixed attackers feeling less optimal because of the aforementioned IV/EV system, and yet it doesn't have the Physical-Special Split we're used to, so it's the worst of both worlds, the Sevii Islands, not being able to use an Espeon without modding the game despite the fact it exists in the code unlike in Gen 1, Brock being even worse designed now that he gets a Rock move, the improved graphics exposing how plain Kanto looks, and Lostelle. Especially Lostelle.

In my opinion, Gen 1 offers an unique experience that is janky af, sure, but it's very different from modern games. For the sake of completeness, I think the same of Gen 2. Both are very different from modern standards and are tied to the GOAT side series, Stadium.

Gen 3 is closer to modern standards, but in that awkward phase of it where it just feels like a worse version of what we got today. Which makes sense as it was the first step towards said standard, so of course, there was a lot ironed out since then.

Any further questions?
 
Isn't the point that it's supposed to look like a fetus? Mew behaves like a baby, plays with its tail like an umbilical cord, and its the foil to the genetically engineered Mewtwo. I thought it is supposed to look like a newborn.

It is, but i think the design is much more interesting in gen 1, where it Commits to looking like a fetus, instead of the modern one, which is by all intents and purposes a pink cat mascot. modern mew ("modern", the design was rehauled as early as 1998 lmfao) could be a precure mascot, a type of design i find boring when its not in a precure show
 
It is, but i think the design is much more interesting in gen 1, where it Commits to looking like a fetus, instead of the modern one, which is by all intents and purposes a pink cat mascot. modern mew ("modern", the design was rehauled as early as 1998 lmfao) could be a precure mascot, a type of design i find boring when its not in a precure show
Mew always looked like its "modern" self. The non-Yellow gen 1 sprites are just funky and wrong in general like GMax Exeggcute here.
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This Mew art with its wierd colored toes...
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is actually older than the hunchbacked Mew art.
151Mew_RG_2.png
The Red&Green and Red&Blue sprites are just bad, Mew was never intended to actually look like that.
 
What needs further clarification? I enjoy Gen 1's unique mechanics, like speed-based crits, full stat exp. allocation, connectivity to Stadium 1, Razor Leaf and Slash being stupid moves, Hyper Beam actually being a functional move, Wrap + Toxic being hilariously oppressive, Psychic being so busted that it actually makes Mewtwo as strong as advertised...

Meanwhile, what I do not enjoy about Gen 3 are Grass-types being objectively worse than Gen 1, which makes using Venusaur miserable, the IV/EV system, which I hate to this day, having to reset a ton of catches because of bad natures, mixed attackers feeling less optimal because of the aforementioned IV/EV system, and yet it doesn't have the Physical-Special Split we're used to, so it's the worst of both worlds, the Sevii Islands, not being able to use an Espeon without modding the game despite the fact it exists in the code unlike in Gen 1, Brock being even worse designed now that he gets a Rock move, the improved graphics exposing how plain Kanto looks, and Lostelle. Especially Lostelle.

In my opinion, Gen 1 offers an unique experience that is janky af, sure, but it's very different from modern games. For the sake of completeness, I think the same of Gen 2. Both are very different from modern standards and are tied to the GOAT side series, Stadium.

Gen 3 is closer to modern standards, but in that awkward phase of it where it just feels like a worse version of what we got today. Which makes sense as it was the first step towards said standard, so of course, there was a lot ironed out since then.

Any further questions?
This actually sums up a lot of why I have really enjoyed my Gen 1 playthroughs the last year or so, more than I enjoyed Ruby/Sapphire and so far LeafGreen. The physical/special split is wild in the GBA games, some Pokemon are literally neutered by the lack of it for the moves.
 
Mew always looked like its "modern" self. The non-Yellow gen 1 sprites are just funky and wrong in general like GMax Exeggcute here.
Spr_1b_102.png

This Mew art with its wierd colored toes...
151Mew_RG.png
is actually older than the hunchbacked Mew art.
151Mew_RG_2.png
The Red&Green and Red&Blue sprites are just bad, Mew was never intended to actually look like that.
Whether or not Fetus Mew is the "original" design for Mew shouldn't have any impact on whether or not someone prefers that design direction for it.
 
i can see why frlg would be boring to some but i always enjoyed them just for being really solid entries in the series. good variety of mons, decent difficulty and level curve, and the non-linear nature of kanto gives it a lot of replay value. rby definitely has its charm and i can enjoy playing it too but the complete lack of difficulty and generally slow and clunky gameplay makes it hard for me to prefer it over frlg, even if messing with some of the glitches can be fun
 
i can see why frlg would be boring to some but i always enjoyed them just for being really solid entries in the series. good variety of mons, decent difficulty and level curve, and the non-linear nature of kanto gives it a lot of replay value. rby definitely has its charm and i can enjoy playing it too but the complete lack of difficulty and generally slow and clunky gameplay makes it hard for me to prefer it over frlg, even if messing with some of the glitches can be fun
Yeah, I can respect that. They're objectively different experiences, so it boils down to what fits one's tastes better.
 
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