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Unpopular opinions

Whoever designed this put a lot of work into making sure this gimmick would never accomplish anything.
half joking and half not joking I think they did this with both Stonjourner and Eiscue, with the former being more apparent

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they gave stonjourner excellent hp/atk/def but made sure its special defense was the worst special defense to ever special defense, and made it way faster than you would ever want for trick room. they gave it a 30% damage boost to your ally ability but designed its stats to make sure you would never actually use this pokemon without suffering in doubles.

also I hate stonjourner's design, honestly the only rock type I hate and rock is my favorite type. it feels like a corporate mascot of the actual stonehenge pokemon that we just never got to see. when I think of like ancient structures or paintings depicted as pokemon I think of greats like sigilyph or nosepass or golett/golurk. the face and paper mario floating block arms just do not do it for me.

I do like this tcg art tho

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Here's an unpopular opinion: The pokemon games aren't woke. I appreciate the fandom's efforts to fix that, but I think it's important that we remember what the source material actually is. Because, yeah, there's the imperialism of Alola/Hisui. The female characters are faster to speedrun for various reasons, but a good chunk of those reasons are sexism(female chars talk more so the male rival is faster, etc). The devs actively scrub any potential gay or trans expression out of the games, purely because they can.

Again, I understand and agree with people pushing back and fixing that. But it's important to remember that these games are sexist, transphobic, and racist, so that we remember where to push back.

Bringing this back bc of the Pokemon Company doing jackshit regarding that one ICE video. Not surprised but I don't get people who were expecting sth would come out from this.
 
half joking and half not joking I think they did this with both Stonjourner and Eiscue, with the former being more apparent

View attachment 777437

they gave stonjourner excellent hp/atk/def but made sure its special defense was the worst special defense to ever special defense, and made it way faster than you would ever want for trick room. they gave it a 30% damage boost to your ally ability but designed its stats to make sure you would never actually use this pokemon without suffering in doubles.

also I hate stonjourner's design, honestly the only rock type I hate and rock is my favorite type. it feels like a corporate mascot of the actual stonehenge pokemon that we just never got to see. when I think of like ancient structures or paintings depicted as pokemon I think of greats like sigilyph or nosepass or golett/golurk. the face and paper mario floating block arms just do not do it for me.

I do like this tcg art tho

View attachment 777439

I hate that SpD too. It WOULD'VE been a doubles mon, which I don't play, but it still bugs me. I maybe could tried it even without singles ability if all stats were done, but the SpD isn't enough even with av and evs.
 
half joking and half not joking I think they did this with both Stonjourner and Eiscue, with the former being more apparent

View attachment 777437

they gave stonjourner excellent hp/atk/def but made sure its special defense was the worst special defense to ever special defense, and made it way faster than you would ever want for trick room. they gave it a 30% damage boost to your ally ability but designed its stats to make sure you would never actually use this pokemon without suffering in doubles.

also I hate stonjourner's design, honestly the only rock type I hate and rock is my favorite type. it feels like a corporate mascot of the actual stonehenge pokemon that we just never got to see. when I think of like ancient structures or paintings depicted as pokemon I think of greats like sigilyph or nosepass or golett/golurk. the face and paper mario floating block arms just do not do it for me.

I do like this tcg art tho

View attachment 777439
I hate that SpD too. It WOULD'VE been a doubles mon, which I don't play, but it still bugs me. I maybe could tried it even without singles ability if all stats were done, but the SpD isn't enough even with av and evs.
Between those and the posts talking about Eiscue, I wonder if Eiscue and Stonejourner are the worst “Version Exclusive” counterparts possible after the really-early game bugs.

Eiscue has an interesting concept of “starts as slow and bulky, but can turn into a speedster”, but between the type and consequently incompatibilities, as well as suffering from a master of none stat distributions on both forms, it felt like it is doomed at the beginning despite a design that I’ve grown up to.

Stonjourner, on the other hand, symbolizes everything wrong about an archetypical Rock-type; high physical stats, atrocious special stats even by standards, an awkawrd speed tier and got nothing else to stand out on a casual playthrouh or even VGC. Had the SpD and Speed were swapped from the beginning, it’ll be an infinitely more interesting Rock-type in the context of VGC and a much more servicable one in casual playthroughs.

The two even symoblizes what went wrong with single-staged Pokémon in general; they either has an impractical gimmick, mediocre to bad stat spread, tend to be found far later than their BST suggests, a lopsided rivalry in term of viability and how they interact against each others, or worse, a combination of those. It makes a lack of evolution even more insulting, so insulting that maybe getting only a pre-evolution at the beginning may be slightly more insulting.

Like, I get they are meant to be “pre-promotion units” and all, but not many casual players agree with this game design, as many prefer to stick with their favorites, many of which that evolved at some point. Yes, you can win even the hardest Champion battles with those, but it’s more effective to do so with better Pokémon unless you want a serious challenge. (Or if you want to cheese foes with Prankster Encore Volbeat / Illumise, and that still worked well in difficulty ROM hacks and fangames even with more advanced opponent AI, lol)

The exceptions like Heracross, Lapras, Aerodactyl, Wishiwashi once Schooling’s activated, Pinsir with it’s Mega, Mawile + Sableye with their respective Megas (and the base forms are still popular in their own right), and other high-BST single stages are exception due to already coming ready with good enough stats to keep up even in the endgame. Those are small percentage compared to the single-staged underdogs, though.
 
Honestly if Eiscue had the tools to be anything other than a Belly Drum sweeper it could potentially be pretty interesting. It's already got Flip Turn, so you can theoretically plop it in front of a physical attacker, then Flip Turn as they switch to a special attacker. The problem is that in order for this to work, the physical attacker needs to have some reason to not just stay in and punch Eiscue in the face. The first time you send this thing out, the threat of Belly Drum does the trick, but after that? What the hell else does Eiscue even have? Icy Wind? Reflect without Light Screen? A barely-strong Ice Spinner? Feather Dance? If Eiscue came out one generation sooner it could have threatened Toxic, but that stopped being a universal TM in gen 8.
 
Actually now that I think about it, Stonehenge sorta has a mythical quality being so old. Even though it probably SHOULDN'T have good SpD, cause rocks generally don't, 20 is a big joke for its design imo . Like if they give even kartana a tiny bit more SpD(less special bulk cause trash up too, but I'm talking SpD # only.) oh well.
 
Between those and the posts talking about Eiscue, I wonder if Eiscue and Stonejourner are the worst “Version Exclusive” counterparts possible after the really-early game bugs.
Honestly, the early bugs might be ahead of them. They might peak at level 10, but that peak is pretty good compared to other things available that early. That's more than can be said for a bad single-stage mon that shows up mid- or late-game.
 
Honestly, the early bugs might be ahead of them. They might peak at level 10, but that peak is pretty good compared to other things available that early. That's more than can be said for a bad single-stage mon that shows up mid- or late-game.

I agree. Also mega drill, dyna butter, and ofc qd on butter too.

Edit: it gets accurate powder too
 
Actually now that I think about it, Stonehenge sorta has a mythical quality being so old. Even though it probably SHOULDN'T have good SpD, cause rocks generally don't, 20 is a big joke for its design imo . Like if they give even kartana a tiny bit more SpD(less special bulk cause trash up too, but I'm talking SpD # only.) oh well.
yeah granted 70 special defense is still quite poor but 20 is so low that even resisted moves can probably KO you lol
 
Actually now that I think about it, Stonehenge sorta has a mythical quality being so old. Even though it probably SHOULDN'T have good SpD, cause rocks generally don't, 20 is a big joke for its design imo . Like if they give even kartana a tiny bit more SpD(less special bulk cause trash up too, but I'm talking SpD # only.) oh well.
This making me wish Stonjourner had been a Special Rock type to reflect the Mystique, because Pokemon still has a lot of "type/stat line" combos that are pretty underrepresented, even at a casual/"Competitive not relevant" level. Special Rocks, Physical Electrics, Special Fighting, etc.
 
So I am playing through that old Pokémon Stars ROM Hack (Technically my 3rd USUM replay). By the time I had to go to Diglett's Tunnel, I was 4 hours and 18 minutes in. Comparing this to my other playthrough times (up to gym 4), it's actually pretty normal for me (it usually takes me about 10-15 hours to beat a mainline game).

What I'm trying to say?

Gen 7's pacing isn't that bad.

(Off topic, but one of your conversations with Lillie (replaces Hau in this hack) opens with this:

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)
 
So I am playing through that old Pokémon Stars ROM Hack (Technically my 3rd USUM replay). By the time I had to go to Diglett's Tunnel, I was 4 hours and 18 minutes in. Comparing this to my other playthrough times (up to gym 4), it's actually pretty normal for me (it usually takes me about 10-15 hours to beat a mainline game).

What I'm trying to say?

Gen 7's pacing isn't that bad.

(Off topic, but one of your conversations with Lillie (replaces Hau in this hack) opens with this:

IMG_20251003_111329.jpg


View attachment 777590)


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Ice already got buffed this generation with Snow now giving 50% defense.
The main problem with Ice is that they can't buff it. The few ice types that actually DO have the stats (Weavile, Caly-Ice, A-Ninetales, Iron Bundle, etc) are already very strong and in some case borderline broken pokemon. Further buffing the type would make those even stronger.

I do agree that Ice itself is a very hard type that the devs will have to balance around.
You can't make it a defensive mon because Ice only resists itself, and its weakness to Stealth Rock greatly hinders it. It has affected a lot of defensive Ice mons like Avalugg, Lapras and Articuno (after Gen 3), Cryogonal, Regice, Walrein (Gen 6 onwards) etc. So the only way to make them good is to make them offensive.

The problem is that most offensive Ice types as you said are hilariously broken, which also includes G-Darmanitan and Baxcalibur, the latter abusing aurora veil into account. Unfortunately if their power were weakened it would also not make them OU material. Like how Weavile wasn't great in Gen 4 OU because it's only strong Ice Move was Ice Punch, or in Gen 9 where it fell to RU when it couldn't learn Triple Axel and Knock Off. Or Froslass dropping down to Untiered as each generation progressed, despite its fast speed and good offensive STAB.

I think a balanced offensive and defensive Ice Pokemon would be Mamoswine. Defensively it's immune to Electric and takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock thanks to its Ground Typing, and has Thick Fat to reduce damage taken from Ice and Fire attacks. Offensively it's great as its Ground STAB would threaten Fire and Steel mons whilst its Ice moves would threaten any Grass or Flying mons that would dare to switch into Mamoswine's Ground moves. It also got Ice Shard to pick off weaken threats to mitigate its speed issue. However, it's also balanced because of its ok speed of 80 which can't be boosted (unless if you have to slot in Trailblaze), poor Special Defense and it cannot learn Bulk Up or Swords Dance. Even after power creep, it's at RU (and might be banned considering it's in a suspect Test rn).
 
Honestly if Eiscue had the tools to be anything other than a Belly Drum sweeper it could potentially be pretty interesting. It's already got Flip Turn, so you can theoretically plop it in front of a physical attacker, then Flip Turn as they switch to a special attacker. The problem is that in order for this to work, the physical attacker needs to have some reason to not just stay in and punch Eiscue in the face. The first time you send this thing out, the threat of Belly Drum does the trick, but after that? What the hell else does Eiscue even have? Icy Wind? Reflect without Light Screen? A barely-strong Ice Spinner? Feather Dance? If Eiscue came out one generation sooner it could have threatened Toxic, but that stopped being a universal TM in gen 8.
Ironically, Eiscue could have been a very interesting *utility* mon if it had utility moves and/or a much heavier stat shift into glass cannon if you break the face. You might need manual setting for hail/snow, but then you could have ideally a bulky mon spamming status behind basically a "physical substitute" with the threat that if you don't KO it (or dont swap to a special attacker) it will status/buff its team, but if you do you break its ice face it could potentially take something down with it that turn before going down itself.
Mimikyu did this pretty well (no stat shift, but the whole concept of "you have to hit this twice or it will mess you up either via utility or raw dmg" was pulled very well by it)

Overally, as I said, just another "gimmick with potential but on a very bad mon" that's pretty common since gen 7 as GF decided that the best way to make each new mon feel more than "just another water type TM" is to give almost every pokemon a signature move and/or ability.
Not that I dislike the approach per se, but between the moveset/ability bloat (expecially when those are clones of other abilities anyway...) and the fact it basically ends up wasted on mons that will not see neither competitive nor ingame use, I don't think I like it either.

After all, what good is it that the mono-water-number-82612 has a fancy ability that turns the screen in a kaleidoscope while making you a coffee, if that pokemon is a 1% spawn in a lategame area and has stats so low that it won't even show up in VGC nor in singles. May as well just have been another Luvdisc.
 
I would argue that Eiscue doesn't actually care about snow all that much at all. Ice Face's refresh mechanics have huge antisynergy with Belly Drum, so the only way you'd ever see it refresh is if you run Snowscape on Eiscue itself, which since refreshing your Ice Face means losing your speed boost you're probably never going to do. Other boosting Ice-types can appreciate snow being set up beforehand, since they can use the Defense boost to help them boost, but Eiscue already has infinite Defense in its cube form, and snow does nothing to help it against the special attackers that can bypass its face.

It costs the same amount of turns as any other setup sweeper, no awkward 3 turn shuffle needed, but it also means that Ice Face's secondary gimmick of refreshing in snow is practically vestigial.
The Gimmick was better in gen 8 than 9. In gen 8, you could Belly Drum --> Dynamax --> Max Hailstorm and regenerate the Ice Face, which could lead to tricky scenarios. I liked doing Max Hailstorm --> Max Geyser --> Max Hailstorm to regenerate it twice. Being able to take a extra hit or prevent a revenge kill was massive.
 
The Gimmick was better in gen 8 than 9. In gen 8, you could Belly Drum --> Dynamax --> Max Hailstorm and regenerate the Ice Face, which could lead to tricky scenarios. I liked doing Max Hailstorm --> Max Geyser --> Max Hailstorm to regenerate it twice. Being able to take a extra hit or prevent a revenge kill was massive.
Thinking of it, I do wonder if that was the design behind it, and it just was a victim of falling flat once the main gimmick was not there anymore.
 
Overally, as I said, just another "gimmick with potential but on a very bad mon" that's pretty common since gen 7 as GF decided that the best way to make each new mon feel more than "just another water type TM" is to give almost every pokemon a signature move and/or ability.
Not that I dislike the approach per se, but between the moveset/ability bloat (expecially when those are clones of other abilities anyway...) and the fact it basically ends up wasted on mons that will not see neither competitive nor ingame use, I don't think I like it either.

After all, what good is it that the mono-water-number-82612 has a fancy ability that turns the screen in a kaleidoscope while making you a coffee, if that pokemon is a 1% spawn in a lategame area and has stats so low that it won't even show up in VGC nor in singles. May as well just have been another Luvdisc.

I don't entirely disagree with this re increasing move/ability bloat but I don't think "it won't have much usage in competitive or in-game" is really the criteria to judge them on. As you say, it's more about making each individual Pokemon more memorable and distinct, but not every Pokemon gets showcased in-game (and doesn't Melony use an Eiscue in her gym battle?) Luvdisc is an interesting example to compare Eiscue against because Luvdisc, as unremarkable as it is, serves another function in RSE in that it's the sole Pokemon you can farm Heart Scales from - so it's "purpose" (so to speak) isn't to showcase a signature move or ability.

And you don't know for certain that it won't ever show up in VGC (in this gen or years down the line); I am not a competitive battler by any means but one of my favourite things is seeing people use unconventional or anti-meta strategies and gimmicky moves/abilities are one of the best ways to do so.
 
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And you don't know for certain that it won't show ever up in VGC (in this gen or years down the line); I am not a competitive battler by any means but one of my favourite things is seeing people use unconventional or anti-meta strategies and gimmicky moves/abilities are one of the best ways to do so.
Underdog definitely show up in VGC, but doesn't take a expert to know something like Eiscue, Orbeetle or Stonjourner won't (not in serious environments anyway)

Kudos to that madman who brought fucking Scovillain to official international tournaments though. He had a plan. It sucked, but a plan it was.
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scovillain is cool I guess but shout out to my goat oranguru

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Does Oranguru really count as underdog considering he did have a pretty successful launch gen? :wo:
Even in gen 8 he had some uses. Obviously powercreep and most importantly Indeedee happened, but I think the monkey was a pretty successful pokemon all thing considered.
 
I'm actually a pretty big fan of Stonjourner's gameplay design. It's obviously a nothingburger in singles but in doubles it's stat tradeoffs are much more fun. I could forgive most people for not seeing this, as official VGC formats have never been low enough in power level to support it. But I've seen it quite a lot in VGC Draft across several power levels, and there Stonjourner is often an option to make offensive threats on your team even more lethal while not breaking the bank like you need to for Chi-Yu / Chien-Pao or sacrificing immediate presence the way you might with Charjabug or a Helping Hand user. The 70 Base Speed also more directly comes into play by being workable with a Choice Scarf in some situations, which can be a nasty surprise when played into the right matchup. The limited context of opponents also plays well with the extreme weaknesses Stonjourner has, as it can play to offsetting the most impactful downsides in a matchup rather than trying fruitlessly to be fast, live any special hit, and be an offensive threat all at once.

VGC Draft as a format brings out a lot of the design potential for lots of the weaker members of the modern gen rosters. I've grown to appreciate mons like Stonjourner, Arboliva, and Bruxish (among many more) through seeing them perform in high power matchups tuned to their advantage or from being major players in lower power level drafts.

Also my VGC Draft hot take is that Farigiraf is one of the strongest picks in any point based draft where it isn't taking up more than 20% of your total points / isn't the exact same price as IndeedeeF. It's a ridiculously good enabler for so many kinds of lower tier partners due to having a more persistent chilling effect on Fake Out without worrying about Rillaboom / Levitating partners / allies that want to use their own Priority while still having reasonable bulk, reasonable spread damage, and access to Trick Room.
 
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Does Oranguru really count as underdog considering he did have a pretty successful launch gen?
I have no idea if its an underdog or not in vgc since he was pretty deliberately designed to be a vgc guy, but I just like him

lot of people give me weird reactions for liking him and using him in an actual playthru so hes an underdog in that respect lol

Obviously powercreep and most importantly Indeedee happened, but I think the monkey was a pretty successful pokemon all thing considered.
they should have given psychic surge to oranguru instead :mad:
 
I have no idea if its an underdog or not in vgc since he was pretty deliberately designed to be a vgc guy, but I just like him

lot of people give me weird reactions for liking him and using him in an actual playthru so hes an underdog in that respect lol


they should have given psychic surge to oranguru instead :mad:
Oranguru didn't have an open ability slot.
 
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