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It also gives you a hell of a target to strive toward. The first time I battled my friend, via link cable, I legitimately thought I was unbeatable... with my level 24 Quilava that steamrollered everything in-game (ah, youthful stupidity).
Then my friend sent out his level 53 Typhlosion.
From then on, all I could think about was getting tough enough to battle him on an even footing.
This probably won't be popular:
I think leveling in general, or at least levels affecting your stats, needs to go away. Learning new moves and evolving are both good measures of progress, and some sort of EV/Grit/whatever mechanic can allow training individual stats further, but actual "lvl 30 Wartortle one-shots lvl 20 Ivysaur with Body Slam" should not be a thing going forwards.
Let's look at what increasing your level actually does:
Let you to fight higher level pokemon
Let you ignore type matchups to just overpower opponents
Act as a gauge for learning moves/evolving
Give the satisfaction of "make number go up"
Now the issues with levels:
Can't do non-linear regions (breaks the level curve, see Johto)
Can't allow players to access dangerous mons early (they could get lucky and catch/faint it to break everything)
Players can have wildly divergent power at various key moments
Discourages large teams/swapping out for new members/trying new mons
Makes going back to areas you missed boring (shout out to everyone who didn't bring Fly to the E4, became Champion, then had to walk through a route of lvl 3 derps to make it to a PC)
Allows poor strategy to work (one mon with a type disadvantage, no set-up moves, and 10 extra levels can sweep almost any gym)
Levels are a RPG staple, key to the franchise, and a millstone around Pokemon's neck. I'm sure they'll still be here in Gen IX, but at some point GF really needs to reconsider whether they actually make things better.
Legend's damage calc formula makes Levels matter way less in battle in regards to how much they influence damage. Its why you can get ganged up on by random wild mons that are 20 levels below you and still get beat up by them or why some of the Alpha battles are even possible to win without having to overlevel yourself.
So I'd say that the main issue you have with levels is already being resolved as overlevelling isn't as effective anymore.
The only RPGs I can think of that don't have levelling are the original Digimon World and its remaquels (which cut out the middle man and have you grind stats directly)... and modern Paper Mario.
The only RPGs I can think of that don't have levelling are the original Digimon World and its remaquels (which cut out the middle man and have you grind stats directly)... and modern Paper Mario.
FF2 and Secret of Mana. And I want to say Yugioh Dark Duel Stories, but that game technically has one. It determines the cards you're allowed to use and how good your deck is allowed to be. Though I wish it didn't
FF2 and Secret of Mana. And I want to say Yugioh Dark Duel Stories, but that game technically has one. It determines the cards you're allowed to use and how good your deck is allowed to be. Though I wish it didn't
I think Square's SaGa games take after FF2 in a similar "level your stats directly" manner, if not just being a direct evolution on that system since FF didn't return to it after 2's shaky first outing.
I recently started PLA, and it has defied all of my expectations. And I for one think the graphics are pretty good. The animations and sound effects are also phenomenal; I was pleasantly surprised the first time I heard my character panting after running for a little while. Pokemon may not have full voice acting and it may not have the best graphics yet, but it's pretty dang good thus far.
A rave on Pokemon selection in Johto, and the level curve.
Let's look at where we get them in Gold/Silver:
Before Falkner: Starters, Sentret, Hoothoot, Ledyba, Spinarak, Dunsparce (1% encounter)
Before Bugsy: Togepi, Mareep, Hoppip, Wooper, Unown, Qwilfish (needs a swarm to get pre-Kanto)
Before Whitney: Pineco, Heracross, Aipom (headbutt trees), Yanma (1% encounter or swarm), Sunkern, Stantler
Before Morty: Sudowoodo, Shuckle, Marill (1% encounter), Girafarig, Miltank, Chinchou, Corsola (both Good Rod), Snubbull (1% encounter)
Before Radio Tower: Natu, Smeargle, Mantine, Remoraid (need swarm to get pre-Kanto), Swinub, Delibird, Gligar, Teddiursa, Phanpy, Skarmory, Wobbuffet [Remoraid and onward require 7 badges first, but you can get them before you do the Radio Tower]
Kanto-only: Houndour, Slugma, Murkrow
Silver Cave only: Sneasel, Misdreavus, Larvitar
Before Falkner: Starters, Sentret, Hoothoot, Ledyba, Spinarak, Hoppip, Phanpy, Teddiursa
Before Bugsy: Togepi, Wooper, Unown, Qwilfish (still need a swarm pre-Kanto) [Mareep isn't in Crystal]
Before Whitney: Pineco, Heracross, Aipom, Yanma, Sunkern, Stantler, Snubbull (no longer Swarm)
Before Morty: Sudowoodo, Shuckle, Marill (no longer Swarm), Miltank, Chinchou, Corsola [Girafarig isn't in Crystal]
Before Radio Tower: Natu, Smeargle, Mantine, Swinub, Delibird, Gligar, Skarmory, Wobbuffet, Sneasel [Remoraid isn't in Crystal]
Kanto-only: Houndour, Slugma, Murkrow
Silver Cave: Misdreavus, Larvitar
Really, only three of them gain much from this: Phanpy, Teddiursa and Sneasel.
I want to talk about the midgame because that's where the level curve arguments come from. GSC, in my opinion, really lets you take the training wheels off midgame, in contrast to newer games that have a defined path they want you to go in. Its well known that you can do Chuck, Jasmine and Pryce's gyms in whatever order you want (which is why they all are around the same level, because if they weren't, there would still be a defined pathway they want you to take. And once you defeat the seventh gym, you do get the request to go to the Radio Tower, but you can totally skip it and go explore Ice Path and Route 45 first (unlike in HGSS, the Slowpoke Tail guy only blocks you until you have the seventh badge). All of this has to be in consideration when designing the wild Pokemon because GameFreak left you the option to get them early. If you want to get a Girafarig before Morty (great choice btw!), go for it. If you need that Swinub to do the Rocket Tower to get some extra levels before Clair, go for it. That's why grinding for Clair is a pain, because they gave you the option to get here at the early 30s.
"But why not just do a more linear game and boost the level curve?"
Why is that worth limiting player choice and exploration. This is a game that wanted to take some risks and it paid off, big time. There really isn't a mainline game that gives you this much freedom. You do have the Celedon/Fuschia/Saffron/Cinnabar gyms being relatively up to player choice (though Fuschia must be cleared before Cinnabar due to Surf. There is also a well defined level curve that encourages doing Celedon first and Cinnabar last). Otherwise there really isn't much room in other games that GameFreak lets you explore. In Gen 2, this flatter level curve is a conscious design choice to really encourage player exploration.
"But why are six of the families Kanto-only?"
Again, this encourages exploration. It makes these Pokemon feel special. As there isn't a Johto dex (its a renumbered National Dex), these are going to be some holes that need to be filled up in your PokeDex. Given the completely non-linear nature of Kanto, you do have some fun hunting for the last few new mons as you complete the dex.
The Rocket Executive's Houndour/Houndoom has made people want it, and now you finally can (at Night, because it's Gen 2).
Murkrow helps you out in the Mahogany hideout and now you can get one.
Sneasel has story significance with the Rival stealing one from Cianwood. Being able to get one is cool.
Larvitar is the pseudo so its location hidden in the final dungeon is almost like a prize for getting this far.
Of note, these four are also all Dark types and, I think, their rarity made Dark type feel special. You know they exist from the Kimono Girls and Karen, and being able to finally put your hands on one feels so good.
Misdreavus is the only new Ghost, and given that its identity has always been 'bad Gengar', putting it in the final dungeon makes it also seem special. Otherwise, it would probably just get forgotten about.
Slugma isn't super special on its own, especially when you get Growlithe/Vulpix/Magmar relatively close together, and Ponyta before the Elite 4, but I think Slugma's rarity probably made people more willing to try it out.
"But why do we care about exploration?"
Because that's how you find the new mons, silly.
Gen 2 does an amazing job at showcasing its new castmates through its new gameplay mechanics. We've got:
Swarm mons: Marill, Dunsparce, Qwilfish, Remoraid, Snubbull and Yanma. Using the PokeGear, they have given you a way to make rarer mons easier to find, and, in the case of Qwilfish and Remoraid, allowed them to be caught earlier than intended.
Headbutt Trees: Heracross, Aipom and Pineco are only found in these trees.
Rock Smash: Just Shuckle for this one.
Time of Day: this one is HUGE!
Morning only: Ledyba
Day only: Sunkern
Night only: Hoothoot, Spinarak, Misdreavus, Wobbuffet, Murkrow, Houndour
Not Day: Wooper
Not Night: Corsola, Sentret, Hoppip
Between these mechanics, we've actually covered most of the new families. The only ones left have to do with the cross-gen families, which, again, show off new mechanics!
Pichu, Cleffa, Smoochum, Igglybuff, Elekid, Magby and Tyrogue are all locked to the breeding mechanic. Togepi shows off this mechanic early by showing you 'hey, this is something you can do!'
Politoed, Slowking, Steelix, Porygon2, Kingdra and Scizor are all trade with items. Held items were new this gen, and it encouraged people to play around with them.
In the case of Poliwhirl, Slowpoke and Seadra, they can be found holding these items and so you know they have a connection.
Onix and Scyther both evolve with the Metal Coat and, given that you fight both of them before getting the item, you have an idea of what its for.
Crobat, Blissey, Umbreon and Espeon show off the expanded happiness mechanic from Yellow.
Bellossom shows off a new item, yay!
We know from the beta that this connection was going to be further emphasized. The new Pokemon were intentionally very complimentary towards the Kanto dex.
We know from the beta that babies were going to be further expanded on, really selling this as a mechanic. There were plans for babies for: Tangela, Vulpix, Goldeen, Paras, Doduo, Meowth, Ponyta, Growlithe, Grimer and Mr. Mime (while still keeping all of the current baby mons). This was supposed to be a huge mechanic.
All of the new evolutions were here as well, with new ones for: Tangela, Ditto, Lickitung, Farfetch'd and Pinsir, a split evolution Weepinbell, and proto-Leafeon. This adds up to 34 Pokemon (the real and the cut ones), or about a third of what was planned. This shows that Gen 2's identity in Pokemon design was always about complementing the existing Pokemon, rather than replacing them. Hell, we didn't even get Sentret as our regional rodent in the beta, nor Tyranitar as a psuedo (Dragonite keeps the spotlight). In contrary, Pidgey/Hoothoot were always complementary (time of day), which carried to the final build.
In closing of this probably quite unpopular opinion, I think GSC's level curve and Pokemon availability really show off the game's intended emphasis on exploration, and its a level of exploration that I still don't think has been passed by another Pokemon game.
While it might be considered successful from an exploration standpoint, GSC ultimately condemns most Johto Pokemon to being second class citizens in their own region due to the highly obscure and aggravating ways/places to obtain said Pokemon. When most Pokemon of the two new types are hidden away to the point of being unusable for the main campaign, I don't care about exploration. It is hard to say some of the Pokemon feel special when some folks thought Slugma was a Gen 3 Pokemon.
The whole game then (and especially now in retrospect) doesn't allow Johto and its mons a chance to shine. So many landmarks are based off Kanto Pokemon, most of the Gym Leaders' Pokemon are Kanto based, and the routes are generally Kanto heavy. Encouraging exploration is fine but too much of it is unnecessary. The number of Swarm Pokemon could have been cut back. Espeon and Umbreon didn't need to be tied into day/night. Houndour could have paired with Growlithe in Johto. Larvitar should have been available like Dratini was in Kanto instead of sealed away until the very end of the postgame. Item Trade evolutions would be more interesting if the darn items weren't so rare and annoying to obtain. It almost feels like the game doesn't want me to use the new Pokemon but stick with generic Kanto mons.
Unrelated to the rest of the post but this was helped by Slugma and/or Magcargo being obtainable in every single Gen 3 game. Yes, even Colosseum and XD.
I looked it up on Bulbapedia, and Slugma didn't appear in the anime until September 2002, just two months before Ruby and Sapphire were released in Japan. At least the anime gave most Gen 2 Pokémon their fifteen minutes of fame, right?
...Right?
I looked it up on Bulbapedia, and Slugma didn't appear in the anime until September 2002, just two months before Ruby and Sapphire were released in Japan. At least the anime gave most Gen 2 Pokémon their fifteen minutes of fame, right?
...Right?
A good chunk weren't even Cel animated
KECLEON and WYNAUT were Cel animated when introduced in the show!
BLAZIKEN appeared before SLUGMA!
The anime staff was scrabbling due to lack of internal info for Gen 2 mons. Chikorita ended up using SW97 colors because that was the last thing they knew before the final games came out. Quagsire was almost mistaken to not have a preevo, same with Ampharos
So... are you implying that Chikorita was intended to be yellow all along, and the anime made green its official colour? Also, what's your source for the Quagsire and Ampharos claim?
Interestingly, Croconaw and Quilava weren't shown until over 100 eps later compared to Bayleef
For Quagsire, despite being an evo, Wooper is absent from the first Johto opening, while Quag was notably shown. It's first eps appearance also was both significantly before Wooper was ever shown, and makes no mention of being an evo. The opening also was shown over a month before GS released in Japan, and features many SW shown mons in addition to early route mons. Wooper wouldn't appear until over 30 eps later, fixing the connection
For Ampharos, its debut despite being after
Mareep (almost 60 eps) makes no mention of their relation in the Dex entry. Flaafy wouldn't be shown until Gen 3 AGS as a bridge
It's important to note that Delays due to the Porygon incident + GF own delays for Gen 2 dev affected OLM animation as well for Gen 2 rep. Music for Gen 2s anime wasn't even finished when the region was first shown! Also Furret being mistaken for a Ground type, that wasn't a dub error sadly
OLM and GF seemed to realize Pokemon rep and connections were important afterwards, so model and color guides were sent from GF directly Gen 3 on, as opposed to before where only People guides from Sugi were given
I looked it up on Bulbapedia, and Slugma didn't appear in the anime until September 2002, just two months before Ruby and Sapphire were released in Japan. At least the anime gave most Gen 2 Pokémon their fifteen minutes of fame, right?
...Right?
I felt like sharing the most recent vid from Wolfey
on Unpopular opinions, because Wolfey is one of the very few people that apparently agree with me on the 3 details that
- At its core, a game with as many variables like Pokemon cannot be realistically balanced
- GameFreak actually tries to balance their game. They're not exactly great, surely, but they do get things correctly once in a while
- A bit of randomness is necessary to keep the game interesting, otherwise it'd turn in basically playing chess on a fancier board. Everything would be calculated, there'd be no variance and no tension in playing both casually and competitively.
Specifically, interestingly he makes a solid point on how if you were to remove all randomness from Pokemon, most PvP match would be a matchup fish that's over in the first couple of turns (expecially in VGC)
I think a discussion of the value of RNG in pokemon is incomplete without also talking about accuracy and effect chance. Saying that an amount of RNG is good and then only using examples that increase direct damage really rubs me the wrong way when I find direct damage to be the least interesting part of a battle.
Critical hits are good, they give a way to break endless stall(and I like the post-VI mechanics). And I can see the argument for certain other randomness. But random chances of <15% are just bad. If you get a TBolt para on your grass or miss a Toxic, that doesn't feel like you played the odds and lost, that feels like the game screwing you for something out of your control. Fire Blast vs Flamethrower for hitting certain damage ranges vs reliability, that's an interesting decision that should have consequences. But a 10% chance is just common enough to screw things up while not being common enough to plan for.
Critical hits are good, they give a way to break endless stall(and I like the post-VI mechanics). And I can see the argument for certain other randomness. But random chances of <15% are just bad. If you get a TBolt para on your grass or miss a Toxic, that doesn't feel like you played the odds and lost, that feels like the game screwing you for something out of your control. Fire Blast vs Flamethrower for hitting certain damage ranges vs reliability, that's an interesting decision that should have consequences. But a 10% chance is just common enough to screw things up while not being common enough to plan for.
Yeah, this is sorta why I think nerfing the critical hit ratio of high crit moves like Cross Chop and Slash from 25% to 12.5% in gen 4 was a bad change. It turns these crits from something you should consider to a non-factor in most situations.
In hindsight, I think I prefered the way speed based crits worked in generation 1 compared to how they are now, since that made the mechanic more relevant rather than some cheap BS that screws you over here and there. I think I would have prefered it if they just tuned the formula and the way crit stacking worked (between high speed and high crit rate moves) instead of the current system.
Yeah, this is sorta why I think nerfing the critical hit ratio of high crit moves like Cross Chop and Slash from 25% to 12.5% in gen 4 was a bad change. It turns these crits from something you should consider to a non-factor in most situations.
In hindsight, I think I prefered the way speed based crits worked in generation 1 compared to how they are now, since that made the mechanic more relevant rather than some cheap BS that screws you over here and there. I think I would have prefered it if they just tuned the formula and the way crit stacking worked (between high speed and high crit rate moves) instead of the current system.
They'd have to eventually rework the formula as base Speeds crept higher and higher. Regieleki's Gen I crit chance would be 39.1%.
Gen I crits were sort of soft-balanced by their best abusers hitting like wet noodles otherwise (and crits being incompatible with boosting moves, sorry, Sandslash and Scyther). Take that limitation away and hoo boy.
It could still be an interesting idea, especially if the damage boost from crits scaled negatively the higher your base speed was. Okay, a slower pokemon has less of a chance to crit, but their crits would deal more damage than a faster mon.
It is definitely hard to make critical hits not feel something arbitrary, and the "frustrating aspect" is impossible to avoid expecially when you're on the receiving end of it.
But the randomness of crits (and randomness in general in Pokemon which is inherently *a bit* excessive when you add all toghether) is also why tournaments are played with Bo3s (and honestly should be Bo5s): if you're the better player, you can lose to hax once, but if you lose multiple times it means there's misplays or skill difference. Losing multiple times to crits for example means, as Wolvey implied, that probably you do put yourself in the position to lose to them more often.
A silly relatable example can come from back when I actually grinded battle facilities, when "what if I get crit" was always something you would be considering when making a decision, and when someone lost to crit the first thing would have been asking would be "could I have done anything to prevent this scenario?".
Surprisingly, the answer was "yes" most of the time, and only a handful of the losses to crits really boiled down to "rng decided you die" and could not have been avoided by playing better.
Main reason for which I linked that video was that it actually made me wonder how much of the randomness of this game is actually designed specifically for the sake of
- Making battles more tense
- Preventing defensive strategies from being too dominant.
A smogony relatable example to this would be for example from back when Spectrier was in OU, and an argument often brought up when people criticize Dragapult: "your wall is one shadow ball spdef drop away from KO". The scenario is similar: if shadow ball wasn't able to drop spdef, it'd be one less "tool" several special attackers would have to try and break through some defensive behemots. Now, obviously SB spdef drop has a much higher chance than crits so it's indeed something you have to keep in mind when making a decision (if you're a good player that's it), but the situation is similar.
Remember this meme?
Inherently, probably one of the reasons for Dynamax's immunity to flinch was the prevalence of the above + Fake Out
Wish I hadn't missed the Johto discussion but I'll throw my two cents in. In what has shockingly become an unpopular opinion on these forums, I am a fan of the Johto games. Especially HGSS which I rank no lower than third on my list, and in contention with Emerald for second behind Platinum. Both firmly ahead of the Unova games, with BW2 fourth and BW fifth.
A big reason I love HGSS is the mesmerizing art style, but this is obviously a subjective point that I won't belabor too much. But from top notch sprite work to the incredible level of polish in the overworld, I think HGSS's art style still holds up beautifully in 2022.
The biggest reason I love HGSS, however, is what I view as the underlying theme of the Johto games. I've written about this before, but I love the idea that Johto is like a "little brother" of sorts to Kanto. It's your job as the "Johto boy" as Blue refers to you, to prove that Johto is for real. There's an amazing underdog narrative/theme that carries these games, culminating with an epic fight against Red atop Mt. Silver to prove once and for all that Johto has arrived. No other game in the series has this kind of theme interlaced with its gameplay so beautifully, since no other game allows you to travel across two regions like you do in the Johto games.
Now having said that, these games aren't without flaws. The two big ones pretty much everyone brings up are: 1) level curve; and 2) Pokémon selection. And both are valid. In HGSS the level curve produces what is honestly the most oppressively difficult fight in the series in my opinion, that being the first match against Lance. I've written about it already but that fight is just comically bad. And it sort of dovetails into the second issue that there are only a handful of possible teams composed of mostly Johto mons, that can defeat Lance without cheesing the fight. I'd be shocked if someone could construct a team of six Johto mons that can take down Lance, without grinding, using healing items in battle, or playing on Switch mode. I know these games pretty well and I seriously doubt such a team exists.
Still and all, I have HGSS ranked firmly above the Unova games for the beautiful underlying narrative that carries these games from start to finish. I wrote on this thread a few pages ago about what I thought were serious holes in both the Unova games' narratives that just break the immersion for me, unfortunately. Never had that problem with HGSS. On the contrary, the narrative plus art style might make them the most immersive games in the series for me, which warrants a high ranking on my all time list.
