Incidentally I did think it was nice that despite BDSP being so...."faithful" to a fault, they actually did tweak Rowan's dialog about evolution and legends a little. No one but pedantic nerds would really notice or care.It's ok sir just have to wait another two generations until the gen 6 remakes and then we know what they do with it
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Branching off this, I think it important to remember they always come up with increasingly specific ways to explain Pokemon getting Cross-Gen Evolutions that try to avoid contradicting their previous appearances (to varying degrees of effectiveness but the concept is there). Most common is a Pokemon evolving by knowing a move they gave it in the Generation with the Evo, Baby Pokemon requiring a new Incense to be bred, or more elaborate things like Icy/Mossy Rocks not existing until Gen 4 for Glaceon/Leafeon.
The series has such a history with retcons and handwaves to introduce new mechanics and creature designs that even official postings are best taken as "true until GF decides nah." The most infamous there is "we found 100 new species of Pokemon: Some of them live here and some of them live 200 KM to the left in that neighboring region that was definitely always there" for Gen 2, which is even more of a stretch because the regions intermingle a LOT for not having even a mention just 3 years ago.
The "limit on how many times each Pokemon could evolve" statement is pretty bizarre because Mega Evolution doesn't really change that: if it's not a completely separate super mechanic, it still has a limit, that limit is just "however many evolution stages + 1."
My main gripes with mega-evolutions are: 1) many of them look more like alternate forms than proper evolutions because they don't change very much (e.g. mega-venusaur, mega-gardevoir, mega-gallade); 2) others are ugly (e.g. mega-glalie, mega-manectric); 3) and a bunch are both (e.g. mega-tyranitar, mega-latis, mega-garchomp, mega-aerodactyl). Unfortunately mega-mawile and mega-beedrill are exceptions.
The fact that mega-evolution is a gimmick that can't be given to every pokémon family is something that bothers me too. Universal gimmicks are better because every pokémon is someone favorite. Dynamax is bad but one of the few pros it has is that it's accessible to all at the same time some pokémon have unique forms as they can Gigantamax. Z-moves did it too which is a better design idea than make a generational mechanic that is exclusive to some mons.
The fact that mega-evolution is a gimmick that can't be given to every pokémon family is something that bothers me too. Universal gimmicks are better because every pokémon is someone favorite. Dynamax is bad but one of the few pros it has is that it's accessible to all at the same time some pokémon have unique forms as they can Gigantamax. Z-moves did it too which is a better design idea than make a generational mechanic that is exclusive to some mons.
From singleplayer standpoint, designwise, "global" supermechanics are indeed better due to the fact that as you said, everyone has a favourite and every pokemon can use it if you wish so.
Sadly, the problem is that when it comes to competitive environment (which, whenever we want it or not, Pokemon is embracing nowadays), global mechanics just become a "rich gets richer" scenario, where all they really do is make already strong pokemon stronger.
Ultimately, what is the point of using, say, Hisuian Avalugg that becomes a insane wall once it changes it type... instead of just using a regular viable wall and then give your Terastal to an actually good mon? (Same can be applied to both Dmax and Zmoves, and any pokemon really)
You are correct and this why generational supermechanics are a mistake and should be abandoned, the pokémon and the region are enough to distinguish a generation from another, but it's clear this will not happen so the lesser "evil" is better.
I would argue that happened to mega evolutions too, only the better ones were used, very rarely someone would use Mega-Audino in OU. Some pokémon were not competivive and got usable for the first time due to megas but it wasn't just uncompetitive mons that received megas, mega-rayquaza was one of the best. This is speculation but GF gave megas based on popularity and if they had a good design for little known mons, that a previously uncompetitive mon got good was more of a happy accident.
(Responding to this just because it’s a point I see against Mega Evos a lot, not directed at you in particular)
I disagree with this line of reasoning just because it takes away from the uniqueness of each ‘mon to begin with. Pokémon have never been built equally, from types to move access to BST - why should gimmicks be the same? There’s also nothing inherently preventing gimmicks from being expanded upon in future installments, or even within generations (such as ORAS megas or SWSH’s DLC Gigantamaxes) to be spread out to more ‘mons later - not having the gimmick isn’t inherently a death sentence.
Just from an aesthetic standpoint, I also find that gimmicks don’t tend to be as awe-inspiring when they’re universal. Just compare the unique animation of Incineroar’s unique Z-Move, Malicious Moonsault vs the janky animation of the Flying Z-Move, for example. What’s the point of visual spectacle if it’s washed out and bland in service of applying to every single Pokémon?
Because gimmicks are more a mechanic of a entire generation than a quality of a single pokémon which to be fair to mega-evolution it wasn't supposed to be that, it became that only in gen 8. There is a balancing act between generalness and uniqueness. Z-moves and Dynamax did it right, everyone can do it but some pokémon have a special version.
In gen 6 without counting alternate forms, there were 384 fully evolved pokémon which only 46 could mega evolve so about 12%, that is too low for the new shiny distinguishing feature of a generation. Again, this wasn't how mega-evolution was presented at the time but this is how GF are handling generational super-mechanics now so it catches flack from that. Maybe this is just me but the more the better. Paradox pokémon is a good concept, it would be better if every pokémon had one.
it's absolutely not worth literally doubling the number of pokemon (500+ of which would presumably be called "iron noun") just for some idea of fairness/catering to everyone's favourite.
(similarly, as cool as megas are, it's for the best that not every pokemon got one. inevitably they would've run out of ways to distinguish them from each other, and also, like. that's a lot of fuckin megas.)
Here's the other thing about the Paradox one: Unlike Megas or Dynamax, the Paradoxes are distinct entities in gameplay. They take a lot more work to make unique since they're not even consistently "better" versions of their base (see Iron Treads or the complete stat redo of Walking Wake) in terms of design concept, and where some people will want to use the cool alt, others might say "why would I use Robot Hydreigon instead of Hydreigon?" and ignore the paradox. Not to mention the issue of "why doesn't Sandy Shocks evolve into Sandy Sirens?" if you give a Magnezone Paradox when a Magneton one exists.
The reason Z-Moves and Dynamax can be generic for everyone is because they're bland and low effort in terms of design and assets (hell a lot of the "unique" variants are cookie cutter, just for a different cookie). Paradox Pokemon and Megas take too much work to be given out that widely that quickly to everyone. Especially when they're based on the Physiology of the subject rather than just injecting a bunch of energy, they'd break my immersion personally if every single Pokemon had a Super Saiyan form or a Dinosaur/Robot counterpart.
The reason Z-Moves and Dynamax can be generic for everyone is because they're bland and low effort in terms of design and assets (hell a lot of the "unique" variants are cookie cutter, just for a different cookie). Paradox Pokemon and Megas take too much work to be given out that widely that quickly to everyone. Especially when they're based on the Physiology of the subject rather than just injecting a bunch of energy, they'd break my immersion personally if every single Pokemon had a Super Saiyan form or a Dinosaur/Robot counterpart.
Apparently there’s been more discussion about generational gimmicks as of late. My opinions on these haven’t really changed- I still dislike most of them, and find Mega Evolutions mishandled from start to finish, at least for the purpose of multiplayer. They all have their place in single player, I’ll admit, but none of the main four have done anything to help one of Pokémon’s biggest issues, that being the fact these games are just too easy for their audience these days.
That being said, I do have one extra critique for these mechanics, but it’s probably not what you’re expecting. Can we even call these “generational” anymore? I’d go as far as to say ever since Sword & Shield, not even the game developers can properly define what a “generation of Pokémon” is. Gimmicks, these still remain either way, but a little consistency would be nice.
That being said, I do have one extra critique for these mechanics, but it’s probably not what you’re expecting. Can we even call these “generational” anymore? I’d go as far as to say ever since Sword & Shield, not even the game developers can properly define what a “generation of Pokémon” is. Gimmicks, these still remain either way, but a little consistency would be nice.
If I'm gonna be frank: Pokemon games were never truly difficult. I have two points to raise here, and I think one of them is surprising but SV's Raids have made very apparent for the past half year or so.
First is that Pokemon games aren't and never were hard, and even the older games were pretty darn easy. Once you have a full grasp on the depth of knowledge of Pokemon's battle system, the game isn't truly difficult unless you make it so yourself. Older games just had an artificial sense of difficulty because of bad game design, aka jank level curves and limited pool of good options for the player. Tedium and demanding long term old school grinding does not equate to genuine difficulty.
The other is that the target audience of the franchise is young kids who are in elementary school. And believe it or not, you may not realize it as a Smogon player with knowledge of Pokemon's battle system and its nuances, but the average elementary school kid actually substantially lacks knowledge on Pokemon's more nuanced aspects, and as such Pokemon would actually feel difficult to them because of it. You'll hear many stories across the internet about SV's Tera Raids nowadays, but boy you'll be surprised at how truly incompetent the average player who is actually part of Pokemon's target audience is: they have little knowledge of type matchups, and Terastal itself is actually too complicated a mechanic for the average kid to understand, because you have many cases of players either choosing their Raid fighter based on the original type of the Raid Boss, or choosing based on the Tera Type without accounting for the original type, or worse, simply choosing a powerful boxart legendary because they think it's godly and invincible.
There are many stories about it, but if you think the actual target audience of the Pokemon games finds the games easy...boy do I have some news for you. The Tera Raids in Scarlet and Violet and the countless stories people have with them have been incredibly revelatory in terms of how genuinely incompetent the average Pokemon player actually is: most of them actually wouldn't find these games as easy as we hardcore competitive players do, and in fact their playstyle lends to a much harder experience.
The game developers have started to diversify from the standard RGB formula in terms of mainline games, that said a generation can still be defined by a new region, with a new set of starters and a new roster of Pokemon in a base paired release games. Sword and Shield is by all hallmarks its own generation with Legends: Arceus being a mid-generation game within it, the generation lasted three years, the anime had its own season lasting its duration.
Scarlet and Violet also marks the beginning of a new generation, a new anime series started in it, it stars a new region in Paldea, with new starters and whatnot. And a new manga series focusing on it is starting soon as well.
How they're making the games is changing, but generations are still clear to define based on the factors of new starters, new regions, new anime series, new manga, the Trading Card Game, and so on.
To be fair, he doesn't have to go far for "stories about SV raids".
Me and some others routinely refer the absolute disaster that is attempting to do raids online in its dedicated section, and how it's really more productive to just solo them even if it takes absolutely ridicolous and boring setups.
Me and some others routinely refer the absolute disaster that is attempting to do raids online in its dedicated section, and how it's really more productive to just solo them even if it takes absolutely ridicolous and boring setups.
axew should be renamed hatchetling
I'd like to ask something in the wake of all the videos I've seen talking about future Legends games: can we stop trying to assign Pokemon to these games who don't deserve to be? What, just because the first Legends game did it means Celebi and Kyurem need games named after them as well?
Arceus is a deity, and the apex legend of a group of 14 others from its initial generation (all of which are steeped in mythology in their own rights), so it makes sense for a game to be named after it. What the hell does Celebi have? Being middle of a pack of 6, occasional time travel, a Zorua, and a Pichu? Seems pretty underwhelming in comparison. And as far as I'm aware, there's no mention anywhere of Kyurem being the original dragon itself; only that it's the husk left over from when the original dragon split into Reshiram and Zekrom. In that sense, it isn't any more the original than a Shedinja is a Nincada.
Arceus is a deity, and the apex legend of a group of 14 others from its initial generation (all of which are steeped in mythology in their own rights), so it makes sense for a game to be named after it. What the hell does Celebi have? Being middle of a pack of 6, occasional time travel, a Zorua, and a Pichu? Seems pretty underwhelming in comparison. And as far as I'm aware, there's no mention anywhere of Kyurem being the original dragon itself; only that it's the husk left over from when the original dragon split into Reshiram and Zekrom. In that sense, it isn't any more the original than a Shedinja is a Nincada.
Well yeah, time travel is the whole thing - legends is basically experiencing a region in another time - its natural for people to associate the time travel Pokemon with that.
As for Kyurem - its basically a placeholder. Legends: Unova or Legends: The Original Dragon might work too, but Kyurem is probably better for the game marketing wise if they do decide to go there.
Lets be real though the next one should be Legends: Guyana
The Legends game wishlist are just Pokefans being Pokefans, expecting the next game will have the same patterns. And Legends Arceus is a new kickstart for "Legends: <existing region>"and slap what they thing the relevant legendaris/mythicals will be.
Not against the Legends template. I also agree it just a template.
Not against the Legends template. I also agree it just a template.
While we could see future Legends games, given the success of PLA itself, Game Freak is indeed well known for being inconsistent and refusing to conform to a consistent "pattern" when it comes to their games and how they do past generation revisits in a given generation, let alone mid generation games as a whole.
Which is to say, not every single region revisit going forward will be a Legends game. But if Legends: Arceus is indicative of one thing for sure as far as the future is concerned, as I've said before in this very thread, Game Freak is moving away from doing by-the-number remakes as past generation revisits and reimaginings. Which means FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS style games are likely over, and ORAS is and will remain the last of its kind in that regard.
I could feasibly see a Johto Legends game personally, because Johto is just as myth and legend heavy as Sinnoh from a lore standpoint, and there's plenty of ancient lore to explore. The likes of Kalos or Johto are games that could feasibly get set-in-the-past Legends action-adventure games given there's a lot of ancient lore to explore in them like Sinnoh. But not every single region is necessarily suited to a Legends game. Unova isn't necessarily unsuited to one but there's no guarantee that the Unova revisit down the line will be a Legends game. For all we know it could actually be a Black 3 and White 3. Especially considering one of Gen 5's gimmicks is that its follow up game was not a third version or DLC, but rather a sequel story, as Black 2 and White 2, a third game to round it off as a trilogy would be a move I could imagine them doing. Which is to say, you never know what might happen.
Game Freak is definitely in it to get more creative and take a variety of directions for future past gen revisits instead of the modernized reimaginings HGSS and ORAS were. But one thing's certain: FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS style "remakes" are a thing of the past now, and more original experiences set in the same region like PLA was are the future, even if they won't always manifest specifically as a Legends game.
Which is to say, not every single region revisit going forward will be a Legends game. But if Legends: Arceus is indicative of one thing for sure as far as the future is concerned, as I've said before in this very thread, Game Freak is moving away from doing by-the-number remakes as past generation revisits and reimaginings. Which means FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS style games are likely over, and ORAS is and will remain the last of its kind in that regard.
I could feasibly see a Johto Legends game personally, because Johto is just as myth and legend heavy as Sinnoh from a lore standpoint, and there's plenty of ancient lore to explore. The likes of Kalos or Johto are games that could feasibly get set-in-the-past Legends action-adventure games given there's a lot of ancient lore to explore in them like Sinnoh. But not every single region is necessarily suited to a Legends game. Unova isn't necessarily unsuited to one but there's no guarantee that the Unova revisit down the line will be a Legends game. For all we know it could actually be a Black 3 and White 3. Especially considering one of Gen 5's gimmicks is that its follow up game was not a third version or DLC, but rather a sequel story, as Black 2 and White 2, a third game to round it off as a trilogy would be a move I could imagine them doing. Which is to say, you never know what might happen.
Game Freak is definitely in it to get more creative and take a variety of directions for future past gen revisits instead of the modernized reimaginings HGSS and ORAS were. But one thing's certain: FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS style "remakes" are a thing of the past now, and more original experiences set in the same region like PLA was are the future, even if they won't always manifest specifically as a Legends game.
but people actually liked legends arceus. there will be sequels.
Yeah this makes sense, a lot of people really liked X&Y and famously those games got sequels
what universe are you living in?
A universe in which whenever I say how much I dislike X&Y I get a bunch of people telling me they were really good, actually
To be fair, there is also the issue that ""remakes"" are now approaching gen 5, and the main idea of the remakes was to basically play "the old games but with modern graphics and systems".
However, we're getting to the point where there's... not so much new anymore. Sure gen 5 would still have the update of modern combat system, but come gen 6, they're basically modern games with almost identical battle system.
At this point, it makes much more sense to start working on "alternative" instead.