Data Usage-Based Tier Update for January 2018 (Feb @ #263) (Mar @ #696)

[Raikaria]

I don’t think u know what overcentralizing means. Lando’s usage is so high because it fills a variety of roles (rocker, breaker, pivot, scarfer, cleaner, etc) and does each role nicely, but is easy enough to check where unviable shit like Zong isn’t being used to counter it (s/o to Megagross). The wide amount of roles it can fill results in high usage, just because something is used a lot doesn’t mean it’s broken lol.

Also it isn’t like Gene or Mosa where if u mispredict the set you lose, the meta’s top threats already can handle it decently well (Ash Gren, Ferro, Keldeo, Kyub, etc)

And even if that was the case; look at Gen 5; where Gastrodon; a low-tier mon in any other gen; rose to OU to counter Drizzle which didn't get banned regardless.

 

[B R A I N L I C K E R]

Excited to see what the Lando-apologists say about usage 'but it cant be broken even if it is on 50%+ of teams!!haha!!!!!!' legit learn what makes a tier healthy cos this defo ain't it, no wonder this tier is such a sorry state of affairs. WWGHS.... WHAT WOULD GOD HARSHA SAY....

SMH

Thanks for the stats V interesante : -)

 

[Ellicrum]

If you mean usage stats, we don't have those since ZU is not an official metagame so it does not have a ladder on PS

I know it's unofficial. I want to know how Tuthur1 to this usages informations

 

[Pokeboy47]

No, pokemon drop 1 tier at a time.

Edit: ninja'd by a few seconds

To prevent one-liners, I'll say TR looks really potent in UU now with all those slow mons (Staka, Alolawak, Staplefag Scizor, Azumarill, Hippowdon but lol offensive Hippowdon,...)

Also, Pokeboy and all others who think Lando-T should be banned, ubiquitous doesn't mean bannable. It is centralizing, maybe overcentralizing, but you don't have to run obscure mons/sets to take it down. A lot of Pokés run HP Ice and would still run it without LandoT for Garchomp anyway.

You called?

 

[Ellicrum]

I just noticed that we do not see "Zygarde-Complete" and "Ultra Necrozma" in the usage stats. Is it possible to make them visible for next time? Why not also differentiate between Keldeo-Ordinary and Keldeo-Resolute (I'm sure there are people playing without Secret Sword). Ditto also for Darmanitan-Zen and Meloetta-Pirouette

 

[Maxwell]

I don’t think u know what overcentralizing means. Lando’s usage is so high because it fills a variety of roles (rocker, breaker, pivot, scarfer, cleaner, etc) and does each role nicely, but is easy enough to check where unviable shit like Zong isn’t being used to counter it (s/o to Megagross). The wide amount of roles it can fill results in high usage, just because something is used a lot doesn’t mean it’s broken lol.

I think Landorus should be treated like Deoxys and suspect tested at the support role. It really does everything- one of its best roles is checking opposing Landos with HP Ice. In a game with so much flexibility, you can have a brokemon with well over a dozen "answers".

 

[Ryolain]

I just noticed that we do not see "Zygarde-Complete" and "Ultra Necrozma" in the usage stats. Is it possible to make them visible for next time? Why not also differentiate between Keldeo-Ordinary and Keldeo-Resolute (I'm sure there are people playing without Secret Sword). Ditto also for Darmanitan-Zen and Meloetta-Pirouette

Zygarde-Complete and U-Necrozma are both Uber so they have zero usage in OU and below. There’s no reason to separate Keldeo since it’s not really a different form, basically just a question of whether it has a certain move or not so there’d be no point. Look at the move usage stats if you wanna see how common SS is on it. As for the last two, these are in-battle form changes which aren’t counted separately because you can’t use them separately; there’s no way to use Darmanitan-Zen without using Darmanitan, so there’d be no way to tier them separately and therefore no practical reason to track them separately. Only permanent in-battle transformations like Megas get ranked separately because they can be tiered separately by nature of banning the respective mega stone from the lower tier (however, in accordance with the above statement re: in-battle changes, Megas can never drop below the tier of their base form because you can’t use the Mega without its base form, eg M-Garchomp is only OU/BL because Garchomp is OU).

 

[Ellicrum]

Zygarde-Complete and U-Necrozma are both Uber so they have zero usage in OU and below. There’s no reason to separate Keldeo since it’s not really a different form, basically just a question of whether it has a certain move or not so there’d be no point. Look at the move usage stats if you wanna see how common SS is on it. As for the last two, these are in-battle form changes which aren’t counted separately because you can’t use them separately; there’s no way to use Darmanitan-Zen without using Darmanitan, so there’d be no way to tier them separately and therefore no practical reason to track them separately. Only permanent in-battle transformations like Megas get ranked separately because they can be tiered separately by nature of banning the respective mega stone from the lower tier (however, in accordance with the above statement re: in-battle changes, Megas can never drop below the tier of their base form because you can’t use the Mega without its base form, eg M-Garchomp is only OU/BL because Garchomp is OU).

I understand your opinion for the last examples. But we can note that Zygarde-Complete was initially Overused (admittedly less than a week but still), Monotype and Doubles OU: if he had remained, we should sooner or later distinguish it from the "Aura Break form" (as Greninja-Ash). Same thing for Ultra Necrozma, which is actually the result of a kind of mega stone: ultranecrozium (an object that allows the change of shape, it reminds me of something)
In addition, this is already the case in Balanced Hackmons:
| 7 | Zygarde-Complete | 22.94051% | 28088 | 16.423% | 4 | 13.260% |
| 34 | Necrozma-Ultra | 4.67758% | 20024 | 11.708% | 1 | 3.315% |

 

[InfernalScizor]

I like the fact that washtom died once seis moved up

Some guy said in the UU room "I like the fact that washtom died once seis moved up". I think this is how it went:

Seismitoad: Haha rotom, I have moved up to UU, and now I will counter you with my UNDEFEATABLE BULK!

Rotom-Wash: Uh.... You know what, I miss the OU room dearly. I miss it so much in fact that i would like to move back! Gottagobye!

Seismitoad: ......

Quagsire: THERE IS ONLY ONE GOOD WATER-GROUND TYPE AND THAT'S ME. GOT IT BUB?

Meanwhile in NU.....

Dugtrio: *Cries*

Ambipom: At least im not a laughingstock anymore.....

Dugtrio: HOW WAS THAT SUPPOSED TO MAKE ME HAPPY?!!

Ambipom: Who the hell said I was consoling you, ya freak sausage?

 

[Ryolain]

I understand your opinion for the last examples. But we can note that Zygarde-Complete was initially Overused (admittedly less than a week but still), Monotype and Doubles OU: if he had remained, we should sooner or later distinguish it from the "Aura Break form" (as Greninja-Ash). Same thing for Ultra Necrozma, which is actually the result of a kind of mega stone: ultranecrozium (an object that allows the change of shape, it reminds me of something)
In addition, this is already the case in Balanced Hackmons:
| 7 | Zygarde-Complete | 22.94051% | 28088 | 16.423% | 4 | 13.260% |
| 34 | Necrozma-Ultra | 4.67758% | 20024 | 11.708% | 1 | 3.315% |

Okay but Ubers usage stats aren’t reported in this thread so I’m not really sure what your point is.

 

[sumwun]

I understand your opinion for the last examples. But we can note that Zygarde-Complete was initially Overused (admittedly less than a week but still), Monotype and Doubles OU:

The stats from when they were OU now have zero weight.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Excited to see what the Lando-apologists say about usage 'but it cant be broken even if it is on 50%+ of teams!!haha!!!!!!' legit learn what makes a tier healthy cos this defo ain't it, no wonder this tier is such a sorry state of affairs. WWGHS.... WHAT WOULD GOD HARSHA SAY....

SMH

Thanks for the stats V interesante : -)

I don’t think you or the pro ban advocates understand the difference between the best and broken.

 

[Yuelia]

If I can make a suggestion on the whole Landorus-T debate: would it be possible to create a second OU ladder where Landorus is not allowed?

To be clear, I am not advocating for banning or suspecting Landorus-T. However, I believe that the creation of this secondary OU ladder is a good idea, for quite a number of reasons:

1: It allows the community to see what the metagame would be like without Landorus, without the need for banning or suspecting it.
2: It lets the tiering leaders know exactly how much demand there is for such a ladder; whether it's a vocal minority, or whether the people calling for a suspect test are just the ones speaking up.
3: There is precedent for a secondary OU ladder in which a controversial element is disallowed, without that thing being suspected or banned in the main OU ladder - I'm thinking in particular of the "no Stealth Rock" ladder towards the tail end of BW2.
4: It satisfies the stated desire of many players to play OU without constantly seeing Landorus, without drastically changing the main metagame (or, indeed, changing it at all).
5: Even if the ladder ultimately is taken down, we'll have learned something through its inclusion. Did it get almost no one laddering on it? That's something to point to when people complain about the mon in the future. Does it seem like a more varied metagame? That could be something to consider for a possible suspect test further down the line. The thing is, we just don't know what a metagame without Landorus-T is like, and I feel like the inclusion of a ladder where we can figure that out is well worth it for that reason alone.

Whatever your opinion, thanks for reading and considering my proposal. :)

 

[Maxwell]

I don’t think you or the pro ban advocates understand the difference between the best and broken.

I don't think it necessarily has to be a defined difference. Guidelines are just that- guidelines. A starting point to making a decision. I don't think something needs to strictly break game play to be unhealthy in the context of the larger format.

 

[alephgalactus]

If I can make a suggestion on the whole Landorus-T debate: would it be possible to create a second OU ladder where Landorus is not allowed?

To be clear, I am not advocating for banning or suspecting Landorus-T. However, I believe that the creation of this secondary OU ladder is a good idea, for quite a number of reasons:

1: It allows the community to see what the metagame would be like without Landorus, without the need for banning or suspecting it.
2: It lets the tiering leaders know exactly how much demand there is for such a ladder; whether it's a vocal minority, or whether the people calling for a suspect test are just the ones speaking up.
3: There is precedent for a secondary OU ladder in which a controversial element is disallowed, without that thing being suspected or banned in the main OU ladder - I'm thinking in particular of the "no Stealth Rock" ladder towards the tail end of BW2.
4: It satisfies the stated desire of many players to play OU without constantly seeing Landorus, without drastically changing the main metagame (or, indeed, changing it at all).
5: Even if the ladder ultimately is taken down, we'll have learned something through its inclusion. Did it get almost no one laddering on it? That's something to point to when people complain about the mon in the future. Does it seem like a more varied metagame? That could be something to consider for a possible suspect test further down the line. The thing is, we just don't know what a metagame without Landorus-T is like, and I feel like the inclusion of a ladder where we can figure that out is well worth it for that reason alone.

Whatever your opinion, thanks for reading and considering my proposal. :)

That’s an interesting idea. I don’t know whether it’s “different” enough from OU to justify proposing an OM, but I’d definitely be up for laddering in a Lando-less OU, and I’m sure many others will be interested too.

 

[sumwun]

Stall would probably be more viable in such a format, so I'd definitely try laddering it if I could.

 

[G-Luke]

If I can make a suggestion on the whole Landorus-T debate: would it be possible to create a second OU ladder where Landorus is not allowed?

To be clear, I am not advocating for banning or suspecting Landorus-T. However, I believe that the creation of this secondary OU ladder is a good idea, for quite a number of reasons:

1: It allows the community to see what the metagame would be like without Landorus, without the need for banning or suspecting it.
2: It lets the tiering leaders know exactly how much demand there is for such a ladder; whether it's a vocal minority, or whether the people calling for a suspect test are just the ones speaking up.
3: There is precedent for a secondary OU ladder in which a controversial element is disallowed, without that thing being suspected or banned in the main OU ladder - I'm thinking in particular of the "no Stealth Rock" ladder towards the tail end of BW2.
4: It satisfies the stated desire of many players to play OU without constantly seeing Landorus, without drastically changing the main metagame (or, indeed, changing it at all).
5: Even if the ladder ultimately is taken down, we'll have learned something through its inclusion. Did it get almost no one laddering on it? That's something to point to when people complain about the mon in the future. Does it seem like a more varied metagame? That could be something to consider for a possible suspect test further down the line. The thing is, we just don't know what a metagame without Landorus-T is like, and I feel like the inclusion of a ladder where we can figure that out is well worth it for that reason alone.

Whatever your opinion, thanks for reading and considering my proposal. :)

Reminds me of the legendary UU (No Scald) ladder in ORAS.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

Kingdra, Gengar, Stakataka, Alolan Marowak, and Manaphy in UU?
Let's see if I can predict each of these outcomes.
Kingdra will compete with Azumarill for the same spot of wallbreaker water type. Low chance of being banished to BL.
Gengar will be top tier along with Latias and Scizor. Low-medium chance of being banished to BL.
Stakataka will be the top Pokemon if it stays in UU for its ability in trick room due to its bulk and offensive prowess. Very high chance of being banished to BL.
Alolan Marowak will be a decent pokemon, forming its own niche as the only slow fire type in the tier.
Manaphy will be outclassed by Azumarill and Kingdra.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

So apparently Kingdra is now RU since it jumped up to OU from BL3 and there's a policy that makes it so say a mon goes from RU to OU in one shift, if that mon then goes below the cutoff line, and it doesn't have enough usage in UU, it goes back down to RU.

The RU NP thread stated this, and I wanted to share it here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/drastic-tier-shifts.3578584/page-2#post-6957897

 

[sumwun]

Kingdra will compete with Azumarill for the same spot of wallbreaker water type. Low chance of being banished to BL.

Wasn't Kingdra pretty bad in UU before it moved to OU? I don't think it's much better now, because drizzle is still banned.

Manaphy will be outclassed by Azumarill and Kingdra.

Manaphy is already BL. I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

If I can make a suggestion on the whole Landorus-T debate: would it be possible to create a second OU ladder where Landorus is not allowed?

To be clear, I am not advocating for banning or suspecting Landorus-T. However, I believe that the creation of this secondary OU ladder is a good idea, for quite a number of reasons:

1: It allows the community to see what the metagame would be like without Landorus, without the need for banning or suspecting it.
2: It lets the tiering leaders know exactly how much demand there is for such a ladder; whether it's a vocal minority, or whether the people calling for a suspect test are just the ones speaking up.
3: There is precedent for a secondary OU ladder in which a controversial element is disallowed, without that thing being suspected or banned in the main OU ladder - I'm thinking in particular of the "no Stealth Rock" ladder towards the tail end of BW2.
4: It satisfies the stated desire of many players to play OU without constantly seeing Landorus, without drastically changing the main metagame (or, indeed, changing it at all).
5: Even if the ladder ultimately is taken down, we'll have learned something through its inclusion. Did it get almost no one laddering on it? That's something to point to when people complain about the mon in the future. Does it seem like a more varied metagame? That could be something to consider for a possible suspect test further down the line. The thing is, we just don't know what a metagame without Landorus-T is like, and I feel like the inclusion of a ladder where we can figure that out is well worth it for that reason alone.

Whatever your opinion, thanks for reading and considering my proposal. :)

First predictions: Pex will be even more annoying. The OU council even once considered suspecting it, and now it would get even better. True, Lando fears Scald burns and Toxic, but a base 145 STAB EQ could deal very heavy damage to arguably the most annoying wall in history.

 

[rabonbrood]

that over 50% usage. Something is not right with that.

 

[IronedSandwich]

is this the first time in Smogon history Gengar has been UU?

 

[Escavalier Royale]

is this the first time in Smogon history Gengar has been UU?

I believe it was UU at the start of SM for a while. Still, pretty impressive to have been OU in 7 generations.

 

[Yasuo]

So apparently Kingdra is now RU since it jumped up to OU from BL3 and there's a policy that makes it so say a mon goes from RU to OU in one shift, if that mon then goes below the cutoff line, and it doesn't have enough usage in UU, it goes back down to RU.

The RU NP thread stated this, and I wanted to share it here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/drastic-tier-shifts.3578584/page-2#post-6957897

Why didn't the same thing happen to Smeargle lol? It moved up from NU to OU in June and had no usage in UU and RU. It kept dropping tier for tier the last months. Keep things consistent or don't bother with those rules at all. Just my opinion