Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

Nayrz

is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
#1


Thread Rules

  • Post intelligently. Random posts saying things like "X should be X rank" without context or supporting evidence isn't gonna fly here.
  • Be civil when debating with other users. Any flaming will not be tolerated and moderators will be keeping a special eye on this thread in particular to keep shitposting to a minimum - consider this your warning!
  • Avoid bringing up ban/suspect discussions in this thread. Any and all possible upcoming tiering policy decisions will be brought up from the Ubers tier leaders themselves, and it won't be done in this thread.
  • Usage stats and replays are good to support your arguments, but avoid basing your entire argument around them. Make sure the replays are of good matches, from high ladder or high level tournaments. It's hard to take a bottom of the ladder replay seriously when discussing a Pokemon's viability.
  • A Pokemon not Ubers by tiering may require a skeleton or analysis in our C&C subforum before being placed on this list, unless the council all agree that it is viable anyway.
  • Nomination posts should include where in the sub-rank the Pokemon will place after the move. This is important to maintain an accurate sorting by viability list.
The Pokemon in the sub-ranks are fully ordered by viability, rather than alphabetical order. D rank is an exception, as it is a ranking simply to cover Pokemon not viable in the metagame, but are Ubers by tiering.

Nominations will be run by our Viability Council before being accepted into the rankings. They may also make their own nominations or movements, but these will come with explanations typically shown via spreadsheet. The current members of the Viability Council are:

Nayrz
Fireburn
The Trap God
Serial EKiller
Melee Mewtwo
Zesty43
Mysterious M
iry


On-site USM dex entries will be added as links as they are completed for each Pokemon.

S Rank

S+

Primal Groudon

S

Dusk Mane Necrozma
Mega Gengar

A Rank

A+

Zygarde-C
Xerneas
Marshadow
Yveltal
Ultra Necrozma
Arceus-Ground
Primal Kyogre

A

Lunala
Mega Salamence
Arceus-Water
Ho-Oh

A-

Magearna
Arceus-Dark
Ferrothorn
Arceus-Fairy
Giratina-O
Toxapex
Arceus-Normal
Mega Scizor

B Rank

B+

Arceus-Flying
Rayquaza
Mega Mewtwo Y
Smeargle
Deoxys-A
Cloyster

B

Gothitelle / Gothorita
Mega Sableye
Lugia
Skarmory
Blissey
Naganadel
Celesteela

B-

Ditto
Mega Lucario
Mega Diancie
Tyranitar
Klefki
Palkia

C Rank

C+

Giratina
Mega Blaziken
Mega Mewtwo X
Mega Gyarados
Chansey
Deoxys-S
Tapu Lele
Arceus-Grass
Mega Slowbro
Dugtrio

C

Mega Venusaur
Excadrill
Dialga
Dawn Wings Necrozma
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Poison
Mewtwo
Shaymin-S
Arceus-Ghost
Arceus-Rock
Kyurem-W
Alolan Muk
Aegislash
Wobbuffet
Mega Kangaskhan
Buzzwole
Reshiram

C-

Darkrai
Kyogre
Tapu Koko
Zekrom
Arceus-Electric
Pheromosa
Mega Latias
Landorus
Arceus-Steel

D Rank

If you missed the intro explaining this, D rank is for Pokemon deemed unviable in the Ubers metagame, but are Ubers by tiering. There is no viability ordering on these Pokemon for this reason, so use them at your own risk.

Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Ice
Arceus-Psychic
Blaziken
Deoxys
Deoxys-D
Genesect
Groudon
Mega Metagross
Solgaleo
 
Last edited:

Nayrz

is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
#2
We're back for another. Welcome to the USM Ubers VR! You are probably wondering what the hell took us so long to get a VR up and running this time around. Well, for starters, its actually early compared to the SM VR, and second, we (the VR Council) went through a ton of effort to have a quality thread started. Following up on the popular public spreadsheet format we started using near the end of SM, we decided to start USM with a large scale variant to kick things off.

So, for this spreadsheet, we made our own personal VRs inside one sheet with reasoning as we went along (this is what took the most time), and I took the averages to create what you see above this post here. The hope is that by giving our reasoning on the initial creation, we educate folks on our current thoughts, and give potential discussion points to posters in the thread. Hack was sadly very caught up in school work and couldn't participate in the voting, but he was involved in the internal discussions on the top ranked Pokemon and he should be able to continue as normal for the next update. Anyway, the sheet is in the link below!

Spreadsheet Link (I recommend zooming out a bit)
Discussion can begin! Keep the thread rules in mind, and also keep in mind that we are also on the lookout for new VR Council members!
 
#3
I think Arc-Ground should drop to A- whereas Arc-Fairy should take its spot in A. I understand the introduction of Dusk-Mane hampers what Arc-Fairy can do but the same can be said for Groundceus. Sp Def Dusk-Mane always gets rocks up vs utility groundceus after leftovers and morning sun recovery and can even proceed to tox it. Fairyceus typing allows it to run toxic without giving much on the offensive end; whereas Groundceus has to run Ice beam for things such as mence/zyg/ray etc. The rise of Yvel due to the new necrozma forms has mad Fairyceus that much more useful in the current meta. Special don is also becoming much more common, and neither of these mons switch into an Eruption anyway.
 
#4
In my opinion Mega Lucario deserves A rank. It excels in offensive abilities, either physically or specially. Its SD set is especially powerful, threatening a direct sweep. It can also check Xerneas if it took some prior damage.
 
#5
Gothitelle: A --> A-


Honestly, I don't know why Gothitelle is too high in USUM. I understand the fact that it can trap Support Arceus forms other than Arceus-Dark, but Gothitelle is no longer as potent as it was in SM, when Balance dominated the metagame, because the metagame is much more offensive atm, and Gothitelle can't trap anything on Offense except a potential choice locked pokémon, and basically becomes a deadweight against everything there is in an offense team.
 
Last edited:
#6
I have a question: Why is Ultra Necrozma A- while Dusk Mane Necrozma is S? Isn't one of Dusk Mane Necrozma's sets Ultranecroznium Z? If so, then is it true that DM Necrozma's best set isn't the ultranecroznium z set?
 
#7
I have a question: Why is Ultra Necrozma A- while Dusk Mane Necrozma is S? Isn't one of Dusk Mane Necrozma's sets Ultranecroznium Z? If so, then is it true that DM Necrozma's best set isn't the ultranecroznium z set?
The answer is that Dusk Mane pretty much invalidates Xerneas. It's basically a better Solgaleo (it has a better ability, and it learns many moves that Solgaleo can't, such as Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, and Photon Geyser).
 
#8
I have a question: Why is Ultra Necrozma A- while Dusk Mane Necrozma is S? Isn't one of Dusk Mane Necrozma's sets Ultranecroznium Z? If so, then is it true that DM Necrozma's best set isn't the ultranecroznium z set?
Dusk Mane Necrozma can do so much more than use Ultranecrozium Z. In fact, some if its best sets in the current metagame don't even use it. Notable examples are Specially Defensive, offensive sets that use other items such as Solganium Z or Weakness Policy, and it's the tier's best Trick Room setter.
 
#9
I'm actually curious as to why Magearna rose two ranks to the top of A-. Is it because of the fact that it checks Yveltal better than Necrozma-DM since both have risen to S and have more prominence in the meta than Xerneas? I just think it's quite the extreme jump since Yveltal was already a fantastic mon before USUM and not too many shifts in the meta have happened in the mid-to-upper A ranks (this isn't a ploy to get Ray to the top of A- I promise).
 
#10
I frankly believe that Dawn Wings should drop to D rank. It is outclassed by Lunala in every way, and is hopelessly shut down by Dark-types. Lunala at least has Shadow Shield to aid in set up or living a hit and Focus Blast to KO the likes of Tyranitar and Arceus-Dark, but Dawn Wings only got Power Gem(...) which only hits Yveltal, and this is not to mention Yveltal will always have Choice Scarf or Sucker Punch due to the metagame adapting to presence of Ultra Necrozma.
I have seen Nayrz currently working on analysis and the only set I have seen is Trick Room, but in practice, it doesn't set up on anything. It has 77 Speed which is basically outsped by the entirity of the metagame, meaning it will always take a hit or be afflicted by status moves when it tries to set Trick Room, or, attempts to attack something in the first place. Even if Trick Room is somehow set up successfully, there are plenty of threats that are able to dispose it the next turn, including but not limited to, Shadow Sneak from Marshadow, Shadow Claw from healthy Arceus, or basically any Yveltal with Sucker Punch. While stronger Z-move coming from Lunalium Z might be appealing, but the extra power is pretty much irrelevant when Lunala itself is already strong enough to erase a threat with Calm Mind - boosted Z-move.

tldr; Dawn Wings is heavily outclassed by Lunala, has trouble breaking through the most conventional answers to Ghost-types, and it has trouble staying alive against offensive teams. It is very hard to execute even a small niche in practice and therefore I consider this Pokemon to be unviable.

Edit: Also might be just me but I haven't seen a s.i.n.g.l.e. Dawn Wings in ladder.
 
#11
I'm actually curious as to why Magearna rose two ranks to the top of A-. Is it because of the fact that it checks Yveltal better than Necrozma-DM since both have risen to S and have more prominence in the meta than Xerneas? I just think it's quite the extreme jump since Yveltal was already a fantastic mon before USUM and not too many shifts in the meta have happened in the mid-to-upper A ranks (this isn't a ploy to get Ray to the top of A- I promise).
It's due to a number of factors. Obviously, Yveltal only got better in USM with the introduction of the Necrozma forms, enabling it to see usage on almost every team. A huge niche that it has over Arceus-Fairy as an Yveltal check is that Magearna isn't vulnerable to Gothitelle, a mon that was only starting to swiftly pick up in usage towards the end of pre-USM, thanks to having access to Volt Switch. This lets it escape Mega Gengar as well, which is something Arceus-Fairy is also extremely weak to. Lastly, Magearna got Heal Bell this gen, and while it sometimes has issues with fitting it on to its moveset, it's still a viable option that gives Magearna a little more utility. Z-Heal Bell is pretty cash, too.
 
#14
Mega Lucario
--> B+


Mega Lucario is a very strong Wall Breaker, and Im surprised it even dropped so much in the first place from the SM VR as I have found Mega Lucario to be even more useful recently on teams that utilize Offensive Yveltal, and it hasnt seem to get much worse. It's Close Combat + Meteor Mash combo already nearly 2HKO's a bunch of things, and it has the ability to threaten Arceus-Fairy which is very useful for teams that utilize offensive Yveltal, which is a lot of teams. Mega Lucario still either OHKOs or 2HKO the whole tier after an SD, and because it threatens so many things out such as Arceus Fairy it can get an SD off of a switch. This offensive presence is so huge that it 2HKOs Bulky Primal Groudon with Close Combat unboosted on certain sets. Not to mention it can still fend off a weakened Xerneas, which can also help teams that heavily utilize Offensive Yveltal. Frankly my opinion would be to move it to A-, but I figured I would get it to B+ first to see if that can get approved. Overall I do think that because of the higher use of Yveltal, the teams that utilize Offensive Yveltal this generation would be helped a lot by Mega Lucario, and I believe Mega Lucario's wall breaking niche has improved in recent times as it can be fit on to more teams and be utilized better as a breaker now because of this surge of Offensive Yveltal.
Note: Yes I do recognize we have a new superior Xern check (Dusk Mane) and we have a new superior fighting type (Marshadow), but I believe that on certain teams, mostly the ones heavily utilizing Yveltal, would prefer Mega Lucario over these pokemon and thus Mega Lucario has been given a bigger niche recently in breaking and poking holes for said dark type.
 
Last edited:
#15
Okay this is my personal opinion so feel free to quote me back but please don't attack me or anything.

Marrshadow A+------>S
While I understand how Marshadow is one of the must-prepare-threats, and how it centralizes the metagame (very evident from rise of Gothitelle), I don't think it is worthy of being S rank.
This might be limited to my own experience, but majority of the viability ranking threads I have lurked around have S ranked Pokemon that excels both offensively and defensively. Marshadow is offensively very threatening indeed (thanks to soulstealingbullshitstartstrike), but it doesn't provide much defensive utility to the team at all. There are very few number of Fighting-type Pokemon that are viable in this tier in the first place, and those are Marshadow (which has another STAB that hits itself supereffectively), Mega Mewtwo X (on the edge of VR) which you might not want to switch into, and Mega Lucario that goes the same. Extreme Speed immunity sounds nice but the only relevant Extreme Speed users in the tier are SD Arceus which is very easy to check using other Pokemon (aka Celesteela / Lugia / Zygarde-C), and Rayquaza which outspeeds Marshadow after Dragon Dance.
I think Marshadow is pretty good as it is. I still can see that you are emphasizing its centralization and shapes the metagame around it for certain extent but I don't think it is a master of all.

Today at 1:34 PM#85
Is Pdon good as it was? I feel like DM Necro can do some of its roll better. I thought it would drop to S or DM Necro would be S+ with it.
Necrozma-DM isn't good as Primal Groudon. Primal Groudon is offensively far more threatening and the number of viable sets it can run is unmatched with the rest of the tier and has universal role compression. If you say lack of recovery is the reason why you claim Necrozma-DM is superior option due to access to Morning Sun I won't say that is even close to being a good reason to nominate it over Primal Groudon. Primal Groudon defensively has better typing. It simply makes Primal Kyogre and Magearna significantly less viable than they otherwise would be by existing, and support movepool is much wider than Necrozma-DM is. Lava Plume / Toxic / Thunder Wave can all be viable ways to spread status and harass all kinds of Defog users, and Primal Groudon also has enough offensive presence to force out Mega Sableye, Ferrothorn, and Toxapex and set hazard of its own, which Necrozma-DM cannot do. It also lacks phazing move which is situationall useful when it has outlived its usefulness. In summary, Primal Groudon will still define the metagame unless significant metagame change happens, and Necrozma-DM is nowhere being close to Primal Groudon's level of offensive presence, defensive utility, and the size of array of threats it is able to handle.

Necrozma-Dusk Mane S------->A+
Imo Necrozma-DM should stay at S rank. If not, at least S- rank.
As I have mentioned above, I believe S rank Pokemon should have both defensive and offensive capabilities and Necrozma-DM fits this nicely. Defensively, it survives two Judgment from Arceus-Ground and can either throw Toxic or set Stealth Rock. It is also bulky enough to survive two Shadow Ball from Mega Gengar. These are something that should not be overlooked. Any balanced teams without things like Celesteela have any Pokemon that can switch into Arceus-Ground consistently and Necrozma-DM being able to status / set hazards on its face is massively appreciated by teammates like Mega Salamence and Rayquaza, which requires Arceus-Ground, or generally any Arceus formes eliminated or weakened to sweep. Necrozma-DM also excels being a Stealth Rock user that simultaneously is immune to Toxic (which means you can put timer on Arceus formes while they cannot), has solid recovery, while having some offensive presence that is enough to check both Geomancy Xerneas and Z-Geomancy Xerneas, which not many Pokemon are able to do outsides Magearna.

Offensively, while not great as Primal Groudon, Sunsteel Strike is very solid with Solgalium Z that is able to demolish Celesteela and Ferrothorn after couple boosts:

+4 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 436-513 (109.5 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 327-384 (92.8 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

This means Necrozma-DM is able to dismantle defensive cores while it can set up against passive foes thanks to aid from its bulk and immunity to Toxic. Of course, the metagame is adapting to its presence and Yveltal is much more prominent, but this never means Necrozma-DM is less viable but rather it already influences the metagame to that much degree.

Xerneas A+-------->S
I strongly agree with this. Xerneas is still n.1 threat that every team must prepare. If you ask yourselves while building new Ubers team, "what things should I prepare for", I can confidently assume the first two threats will be Primal Groudon and Xerneas (or maybe stuff like Mega Salamence and Marshadow). Geomancy sets have much more counterplay at this point, but as mentioned, there are very few 'mons that are able to simultaneously handle both Geomancy and Z-Geomancy sets, which both of them are very threatening to any teams at their own rights. Also Xerneas is a cleric that actually has some offensive presence unlike stuff like Chansey or Magearna, meaning it is able to support its team in offensive teams other than just sitting on a bench and waiting for its checks to be in range of KO.
 
Last edited:
#16
Okay this is my personal opinion so feel free to quote me back but please don't attack me or anything.


While I understand how Marshadow is one of the must-prepare-threats, and how it centralizes the metagame (very evident from rise of Gothitelle), I don't think it is worthy of being S rank.
This might be limited to my own experience, but majority of the viability ranking threads I have lurked around have S ranked Pokemon that excels both offensively and defensively. Marshadow is offensively very threatening indeed (thanks to soulstealingbullshitstartstrike), but it doesn't provide much defensive utility to the team at all. There are very few number of Fighting-type Pokemon that are viable in this tier in the first place, and those are Marshadow (which has another STAB that hits itself supereffectively), Mega Mewtwo X (on the edge of VR) which you might not want to switch into, and Mega Lucario that goes the same. Extreme Speed immunity sounds nice but the only relevant Extreme Speed users in the tier are SD Arceus which is very easy to check using other Pokemon (aka Celesteela / Lugia / Zygarde-C), and Rayquaza which outspeeds Marshadow after Dragon Dance.
I think Marshadow is pretty good as it is. I still can see that you are emphasizing its centralization and shapes the metagame around it for certain extent but I don't think it is a master of all.


Necrozma-DM isn't good as Primal Groudon. Primal Groudon is offensively far more threatening and the number of viable sets it can run is unmatched with the rest of the tier and has universal role compression. If you say lack of recovery is the reason why you claim Necrozma-DM is superior option due to access to Morning Sun I won't say that is even close to being a good reason to nominate it over Primal Groudon. Primal Groudon defensively has better typing. It simply makes Primal Kyogre and Magearna significantly less viable than they otherwise would be by existing, and support movepool is much wider than Necrozma-DM is. Lava Plume / Toxic / Thunder Wave can all be viable ways to spread status and harass all kinds of Defog users, and Primal Groudon also has enough offensive presence to force out Mega Sableye, Ferrothorn, and Toxapex and set hazard of its own, which Necrozma-DM cannot do. It also lacks phazing move which is situationall useful when it has outlived its usefulness. In summary, Primal Groudon will still define the metagame unless significant metagame change happens, and Necrozma-DM is nowhere being close to Primal Groudon's level of offensive presence, defensive utility, and the size of array of threats it is able to handle.


Imo Necrozma-DM should stay at S rank. If not, at least A rank.
As I have mentioned above, I believe S rank Pokemon should have both defensive and offensive capabilities and Necrozma-DM fits this nicely. Defensively, it survives two Judgment from Arceus-Ground and can either throw Toxic or set Stealth Rock. It is also bulky enough to survive two Shadow Ball from Mega Gengar. These are something that should not be overlooked. Any balanced teams without things like Celesteela have any Pokemon that can switch into Arceus-Ground consistently and Necrozma-DM being able to status / set hazards on its face is massively appreciated by teammates like Mega Salamence and Rayquaza, which requires Arceus-Ground, or generally any Arceus formes eliminated or weakened to sweep. Necrozma-DM also excels being a Stealth Rock user that simultaneously is immune to Toxic (which means you can put timer on Arceus formes while they cannot), has solid recovery, while having some offensive presence that is enough to check both Geomancy Xerneas and Z-Geomancy Xerneas, which not many Pokemon are able to do outsides Magearna.

Offensively, while not great as Primal Groudon, Sunsteel Strike is very solid with Solgalium Z that is able to demolish Celesteela and Ferrothorn after couple boosts:

+4 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 436-513 (109.5 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 327-384 (92.8 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

This means Necrozma-DM is able to dismantle defensive cores while it can set up against passive foes thanks to aid from its bulk and immunity to Toxic. Of course, the metagame is adapting to its presence and Yveltal is much more prominent, but this never means Necrozma-DM is less viable but rather it already influences the metagame to that much degree.


I strongly agree with this. Xerneas is still n.1 threat that every team must prepare. If you ask yourselves while building new Ubers team, "what things should I prepare for", I can confidently assume the first two threats will be Primal Groudon and Xerneas (or maybe stuff like Mega Salamence and Marshadow). Geomancy sets have much more counterplay at this point, but as mentioned, there are very few 'mons that are able to simultaneously handle both Geomancy and Z-Geomancy sets, which both of them are very threatening to any teams at their own rights. Also Xerneas is a cleric that actually has some offensive presence unlike stuff like Chansey or Magearna, meaning it is able to support its team in offensive teams other than just sitting on a bench and waiting for its checks to be in range of KO.
Thank you for explaining! I didnt say that DM is better, I just thought that expert players can explain why Pdon>>>>>>>>>>>>DM Necro.
 
#17
Another thing that I'd like to tell about is Naganadel.

Naganadel B+ --> B/B-

I really don't think that Naganadel deserves B+, and much less placed above Arceus-Flying, because its niche isn't helped by its own typing defensively and its poor defenses, letting it die for even neutral powerful moves, such as a Moonblast of a Scarf Xerneas, for example, and strong priority-moves, Extreme Speed from EKiller, making it very hard to find an opportunity to setup, unless against passive stuff that can't deal a huge damage, such as Toxapex. Though, its Speed is excellent, repairing its poor bulk, but it's still outplaced by stuff like Scarf Xerneas, Scarf Yveltal and Ultra Necrozma without a Speed Beast Boost, and back these aforementioned pokémon can easily OHKO Naganadel with STABs. That, combined with a heavy competition with Mega-Gengar, as a Poison-type that is capable of absorb Toxic Spikes and Giratina-Origin/Zygarde-Complete(In addition, these Dragon-types mentioned doesn't waste a Z-Crystal slot and has the ability to check Primal-Groudon naturally) as a Dragon-type are some reasons for why Naganadel is not B+ worthy imo.
 
Last edited:
#18
Very nice VR we've got here...compliments to the makers. However...there are 2 things I strongly disagree with...Please change the following.
1. Xerneas A+ -----> S beneath Yveltal or between Yveltal and Dusk Mane.

Xerneas is not at the level of Marshadow, Mega Gengar, Mega Salamence or Zygarde. Every decent Uber teambuilder prepares for Pdon and Xerneas. Xerneas alone requires either Dusk Mane, Magearna, Ferrothorn, Celesteela or some form of counter in your team, because not only is it the most dangerous sweeper Pokearth will ever know, but it's also defensive as well. Tell me one Pokemon that switches in on it and OHKO's it and you'll get an applause. Not to be forgotten that Xerneas is still able to 2 OHKO all of them, bar Assault Vest Dusk Mane and Magearna. And that's the deal...Xerneas will always make something faint. This requirement to prepare for it, its versatility (geo, z-geo, scarf) and its surprise factor( tb, thunder, hp ground, grass knot, psyshock, focus blast, aromatherapy , heck even defog) is what separates it from the other mons. It is definitely S-stuff, even with the presence of Dusk Mane.

Gothitelle A -----> A+ between Zygarde and Megamence

Same goes here. Goth separates itself from Ho-oh, Pogre and Arceus-Ground. Ho-oh is hampered too much in the current balanced meta, where it struggles to break through defensive mons. And with the intro of Dusk Mane, the meta found a very viable stealth rock setter. Pogre gets shut down and taken out by Pdon, which every team posesses. And Arceus-Ground has almost no defensive utility outside taking out Pdon and defog. Ground is not a very good typing for defense. I'm not saying these pokes are bad...not at all. But in the current meta, goth separates itself. It takes out every defensive mon, bar the gimmicky support darkceus and volt-switch Magearna, thus providing invaluable support to the team. And believe me...it is damn good in what is does. Every team uses supportceus and another defensive mon at the mo. Goth therefore is just too good to be just A.
 
#19
Okay this is my personal opinion so feel free to quote me back but please don't attack me or anything.

I strongly agree with this. Xerneas is still n.1 threat that every team must prepare. If you ask yourselves while building new Ubers team, "what things should I prepare for", I can confidently assume the first two threats will be Primal Groudon and Xerneas (or maybe stuff like Mega Salamence and Marshadow). Geomancy sets have much more counterplay at this point, but as mentioned, there are very few 'mons that are able to simultaneously handle both Geomancy and Z-Geomancy sets, which both of them are very threatening to any teams at their own rights. Also Xerneas is a cleric that actually has some offensive presence unlike stuff like Chansey or Magearna, meaning it is able to support its team in offensive teams other than just sitting on a bench and waiting for its checks to be in range of KO.
Very nice VR we've got here...compliments to the makers. However...there are 2 things I strongly disagree with...Please change the following.
1. Xerneas A+ -----> S beneath Yveltal or between Yveltal and Dusk Mane.

Xerneas is not at the level of Marshadow, Mega Gengar, Mega Salamence or Zygarde. Every decent Uber teambuilder prepares for Pdon and Xerneas. Xerneas alone requires either Dusk Mane, Magearna, Ferrothorn, Celesteela or some form of counter in your team, because not only is it the most dangerous sweeper Pokearth will ever know, but it's also defensive as well. Tell me one Pokemon that switches in on it and OHKO's it and you'll get an applause. Not to be forgotten that Xerneas is still able to 2 OHKO all of them, bar Assault Vest Dusk Mane and Magearna. And that's the deal...Xerneas will always make something faint. This requirement to prepare for it, its versatility (geo, z-geo, scarf) and its surprise factor( tb, thunder, hp ground, grass knot, psyshock, focus blast, aromatherapy , heck even defog) is what separates it from the other mons. It is definitely S-stuff, even with the presence of Dusk Mane.
I personally disagree with both of these statements. I do believe Xerneas is a big threat, but I also believe Xerneas is fine at A+. Yes, it is easily the most powerful A+, and yes, it can be a scarfer and sweeper, I believe that it's niche that it had in its role in SM Meta has been less effective in recent USUM times. We have a few examples here, all very useful and effective examples of why Xerneas should stay A+. Solgaleo-Dusk-Mane has been a new mon released in the USUM meta, and with great bulk and offensive presence, it can handle a +2 HP Ground or Focus Blast and OHKO back with Sunsteel Strike. Another note to this is even bulky Dusk Mane can still 3HKO an Xerneas that has already set up Z-Geomancy, and does so the Majority of the time.

0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Xerneas: 158-188 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- 68.7% chance to 3HKO after Ingrain recovery

And if you're running the Adamant 76 EVs in Attack set (Which you should for gauranteed OHKO on reg GeoXern)

76+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ Def Xerneas: 186-218 (40.8 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Ingrain recovery

And a +3 SpA Z-Geo Xerneas to Dusk Mane-

+3 0 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 169-199 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This means that SpD Dusk-Mane can freely switch in on any and all Xerneas freely and thus 3HKO or OHKO the Xerneas depending on the set. This pokemon as an S Rank also means it makes appearances on many teams, which brings usually 2 checks to Xerneas on each team if it has this pokemon, assuming the team also has Primal Groudon (which chances are it does). This lowers Xerneas niche as a sweeper a good amount, which is only 1 reason it fell to A+. Not to mention Ultra Necrozma's base form is usually Dusk-Mane, giving it a chance to live a +2 HP Ground and proceed to either Photon Geyser it or use Sunsteel Strike, if it is choosing to run Sunsteel Strike on it's set. The only real reason Xerneas would have gotten better in USUM is because it can beat Yveltal as Yveltals usage has rose dramatically in recent times.

Now with the dramatic rise of Yveltal, there has been one mon that has rose up the ranks to fend off Yveltal, while also fending off Xerneas at the same time. And you know which pokemon this is because there are like 0 mons that do this besides this mon, but it's Magearna. Magearna can counter/check all 4 Xerneas sets, ranging from living a +2 HP Ground or Focus Blast and proceeding to Heart Swap the boosts to Magearna, then defeating the Xerneas. And when handling Z-Geomancy Xerneas, it can switch in on rocks and still live 2 +3 Moonblasts, then Heart Swap the boosts towards Magearna and possibly Pain Split up to get more health or kill the Xerneas. Now yes, Magearna was a thing in the SM meta too and could still do all these things. But in USUM and the rise of Yveltal, Magearna has rose 2 ranks to A-, making it a more used check/counter to Xerneas. After all of these things, I do very strongly believe Xerneas should remain A+.

Very nice VR we've got here...compliments to the makers. However...there are 2 things I strongly disagree with...Please change the following.

Gothitelle A -----> A+ between Zygarde and Megamence

Same goes here. Goth separates itself from Ho-oh, Pogre and Arceus-Ground. Ho-oh is hampered too much in the current balanced meta, where it struggles to break through defensive mons. And with the intro of Dusk Mane, the meta found a very viable stealth rock setter. Pogre gets shut down and taken out by Pdon, which every team posesses. And Arceus-Ground has almost no defensive utility outside taking out Pdon and defog. Ground is not a very good typing for defense. I'm not saying these pokes are bad...not at all. But in the current meta, goth separates itself. It takes out every defensive mon, bar the gimmicky support darkceus and volt-switch Magearna, thus providing invaluable support to the team. And believe me...it is damn good in what is does. Every team uses supportceus and another defensive mon at the mo. Goth therefore is just too good to be just A.
I disagree with this also. Way back when in the SM meta, balance was every where. Many teams had a support Arceus in the SM Meta, letting Gothitelle set up on many teams. However, arguable statement coming, Gothitelle was kind of match-up based. Gothitelle isnt the bulkiest thing in the world, for an Ubers mon it's very frail, actually, and for an Ubers mon built to be bulky, it's very frail. This wasn't a problem when you can set up on every balance team though. And still, in USUM, you can still set up on every balance team, that's why it is A Rank. But in recent USUM, balance is now overshadowed by the overwhelming power of Offense, which many people go for now. Many teams have been opting for Bulky Offense recently, and Gothitelle is just so weak defensively it can not set up on heavily forced Offensive Pokemon, which is many Pokemon recently. This was fine in the SM Meta where Offense teams were less used and overshadowed by Balance, but now Offensive teams are so rapidly thrown out there, they are literally everywhere. And this is the problem with Gothitelle being so match up based, in a time where Balance was every where, this was nearly beneficial, but now when Offense is every where Gothitelle seems to have more problems rising up, because Gothitelle's niche lacks against Offense, not to the point where Gothitelle is unusable, but to the point where Gothitelle's niche is hindered a lot against this type of team, which is a bigger problem now because this type of team is used more. The main reason Gothitelle is A is because it can rip apart certain archetypes, such as Balance. I do believe that it can not be any higher than A Rank until we see the use of Offense die down a bit and see the use of Balance rise up.
 
Last edited:
#20
Arceus-Ghost --> B (At The Bottom Of B)

I remember using this thing before the Marshadow Era. It was pretty good. Now take that into fact; You know this thing would be B+ or A- without Marshadow. You know it. I know you. This is thing is still an amazing breaker and/or sweeper. Swords Dance, Shadow Force, Extreme Speed/Stone Edge/Brick Break, Extreme Speed/Stone Edge/Brick Break as a moveset is still a great set. It can break stall with SD Ghostium Z, it can late game sweep with SD Extreme Speed, it's only real problems it faces are Yveltal and Marshadow, and as this is the main problem I believe that if we could handle those 2 Pokemon on a team, Arceus-Ghost could fine a way to be relevant again, as it has the ability to break stall, it has the ability to late game sweep, it can do all of these things, it has just been overshadowed by the overwhelming presence of Yveltal and Marshadow, it can have the potential to break certain archetypes if built around correctly. It can destroy Dusk Mane, it can destroy a lot of Steels, open up paths for Xerneas, etc. This mon is just too good for B-.
 
#21
- Xerneas: A+ -> S

Xerneas has gotten a new check in DM-Necrozma, but has it really changed the ability of Xerneas to pressure any teams, ranging from stall to HO? The immense constrain in teambuilding caused by Xerneas, more than any other mon, should warrant it a place in S. Sure, the addition of DM-Necrozma gives the builder another option to work with, but it is incredibly hard to build a team from scratch that isn't inherently weak to a certain Xerneas set, forcing changes on the team.

OK, now you've got Xerneas checks on your team. In practise, seeing a Xerneas on the opposing team is very manipulative on how you gonna play the game. You need your checks to be healthy enough, otherwise Xerneas is going to sweep. In the same manner, it is easy for the opponent to see the on team preview which mon is preventing a Xerneas sweep, and he will capitalize on it, forcing your checks to take cheap damage (especially P-don and Magearna), and making double switches to always have the momentum.

Xerneas also has an excellent synergy with top mon such as the newly improved Yveltal because they can take advantage of each other's checks (aside from Magearna which can be lured with LO Heat Wave), Xerneas + Earth Power Arceus-Fairy is surprisingly effective at wearing down checks, and Xerneas + Dugtrio is hilarious. It has too much offensive and defensive utility not to be ranked S, and it is never a deadweight or a liability.

tldr: The pressure exerted by Xerneas during teambuilding and the match warrants a ranking of S.

- Tapu Koko: UR -> C+

Don't have any replays and read the concil's stance on it, but it still has more niche than some of the mon listed in C+/C/C-. It is a big momentum grabber, with a moveset of Thunder/U-Turn/Nature's Madness/Taunt. The ability to switch into any kind of Yveltal, to revenge kill Marshadow as long as it has a decent health is a huge asset for offensive teams, and the same offensive teams can benefit of Koko's stallbreaking power. Stall really only has Arceus-Ground who can handle this thing, (especially variants of Sab/Groundceus/Ho-Oh/Lugia/Toxapex/Blissey) and it is easy enough to pressure with Nature's Madness and Taunt. As stall needs all members to be at a decent HP in order to contain all the Uber powerhouses, it is easily broken by KOing Arceus-Ground with something like RP P-don, DD Mence, Marshadow or even Naganadel the next time it comes in.

tldr: Koko being more useful than stuffs in C due to its stallbreaking and momentum grabbing ability should be considered in the ranking.

- I think that overall the rankings are fine. Pheromosa and Lucario should rise a bit, while Naganadel's ranking is a bit generous, but I don't have strong arguments for them.
 
#22
- Tapu Koko: UR -> C+

Don't have any replays and read the concil's stance on it, but it still has more niche than some of the mon listed in C+/C/C-. It is a big momentum grabber, with a moveset of Thunder/U-Turn/Nature's Madness/Taunt. The ability to switch into any kind of Yveltal, to revenge kill Marshadow as long as it has a decent health is a huge asset for offensive teams, and the same offensive teams can benefit of Koko's stallbreaking power. Stall really only has Arceus-Ground who can handle this thing, (especially variants of Sab/Groundceus/Ho-Oh/Lugia/Toxapex/Blissey) and it is easy enough to pressure with Nature's Madness and Taunt. As stall needs all members to be at a decent HP in order to contain all the Uber powerhouses, it is easily broken by KOing Arceus-Ground with something like RP P-don, DD Mence, Marshadow or even Naganadel the next time it comes in.

tldr: Koko being more useful than stuffs in C due to its stallbreaking and momentum grabbing ability should be considered in the ranking.
I strongly disagree with this; Yveltal does the same job and does it arguably better, especially as it can beat Primal Groudon easily and doesn't even need a move like Nature's Madness to be a threat. Tapu Koko is hindered by many things, including but not limited to Thunder's low accuracy and exploitability by Primal Groudon, the most common Pokemon in the tier, its weakness to Ground, and its low stats barring Speed. If Zekrom is struggling in this meta, why do you think Tapu Koko, a Pokemon inferior to it in almost every way barring Speed, would be much better?
 
#23
- Xerneas: A+ -> S

Xerneas has gotten a new check in DM-Necrozma, but has it really changed the ability of Xerneas to pressure any teams, ranging from stall to HO? The immense constrain in teambuilding caused by Xerneas, more than any other mon, should warrant it a place in S. Sure, the addition of DM-Necrozma gives the builder another option to work with, but it is incredibly hard to build a team from scratch that isn't inherently weak to a certain Xerneas set, forcing changes on the team.

OK, now you've got Xerneas checks on your team. In practise, seeing a Xerneas on the opposing team is very manipulative on how you gonna play the game. You need your checks to be healthy enough, otherwise Xerneas is going to sweep. In the same manner, it is easy for the opponent to see the on team preview which mon is preventing a Xerneas sweep, and he will capitalize on it, forcing your checks to take cheap damage (especially P-don and Magearna), and making double switches to always have the momentum.

Xerneas also has an excellent synergy with top mon such as the newly improved Yveltal because they can take advantage of each other's checks (aside from Magearna which can be lured with LO Heat Wave), Xerneas + Earth Power Arceus-Fairy is surprisingly effective at wearing down checks, and Xerneas + Dugtrio is hilarious. It has too much offensive and defensive utility not to be ranked S, and it is never a deadweight or a liability.

tldr: The pressure exerted by Xerneas during teambuilding and the match warrants a ranking of S.

- Tapu Koko: UR -> C+

Don't have any replays and read the concil's stance on it, but it still has more niche than some of the mon listed in C+/C/C-. It is a big momentum grabber, with a moveset of Thunder/U-Turn/Nature's Madness/Taunt. The ability to switch into any kind of Yveltal, to revenge kill Marshadow as long as it has a decent health is a huge asset for offensive teams, and the same offensive teams can benefit of Koko's stallbreaking power. Stall really only has Arceus-Ground who can handle this thing, (especially variants of Sab/Groundceus/Ho-Oh/Lugia/Toxapex/Blissey) and it is easy enough to pressure with Nature's Madness and Taunt. As stall needs all members to be at a decent HP in order to contain all the Uber powerhouses, it is easily broken by KOing Arceus-Ground with something like RP P-don, DD Mence, Marshadow or even Naganadel the next time it comes in.

tldr: Koko being more useful than stuffs in C due to its stallbreaking and momentum grabbing ability should be considered in the ranking.

- I think that overall the rankings are fine. Pheromosa and Lucario should rise a bit, while Naganadel's ranking is a bit generous, but I don't have strong arguments for them.
Xerneas: Now I have already talked about my reason to keep Xerneas at A+, and I will comment on Koko, but I did happen to forget to mention the battling phase of facing and Xerneas. I do admit forgetting about that crucial part was a hiccup on my end, but I will talk about it now. When you are facing an Xerneas, you will have a P-Don with you usually (who doesnt) and you will often times have a secondary steel type (Usually Dusk Mane, Magearna, Celesteela, or Mega Scizor), and usually this steel type can counter back at Xerneas. With 2 of these steels having a reliable healing option, a steel with leech seed, and a steel with pain split, you can usually always come in on an unboosted Xerneas with rocks on your side of the field and be able to 1v1 it, and if you are Magearna or Celesteela and the fellow Xerneas has not used Geomancy, then you will proceed attack, toxic (celesteela), leech seed (celesteela), or Pain Split (Magearna) if you're on low health, predicting a high-hp mon to come in (Usually Groudon). This gives these steels chances to keep coming in on Xerneas repeatedly over and over during the battle if played with correctly, and if your steel fails you have a less reliable (no recovery) but still working fail-safe in the back, P-Don, which checks Xerneas easily. Xerneas just is not as good in this meta (STILL A MONSTER but just not as S-Rank Worthy as before) now that people are running 2 or maybe even 3 checks to Xerneas per team, which at least one of them being able to heal hp.

Tapu Koko: Okay, I have worked with Koko and I have came to the conclusion that is should remain Unranked until further notice. As a momentum grabber it did not do well, grabbing very little momentum while literally feeling like dead weight while using it. I did not see it benefit me at all in battles, while failing to momentum grab often and well, and as well of being walled by P-Don, it is walled by much more stuff than that, and I believe Koko could only very rarely be used as a momentum grabber paired with P-Ogre or Dugtrio (with Xerneas in the back) to U-Turn on incoming P-Dons and going into said mons to pressure/trap PDon, but against a good opponent this will likely not work enless they happen to have no other switch to Koko.
 
Last edited:
#24
I also agree with Xerneas remaining in A+, but it shouldn't leave the top of A+ as it's still an extremely threatening Pokemon if left unchecked. The thing with many of the mons that check Xerneas is that they're not just there to only check Xerneas. Now, if many of the Xerneas checks in Ubers were ranked in the higher tiers simply based on their ability to check Xerneas and nothing else, such as mons like Arceus-Poison, then I'd agree that Xerneas should go to S, but that's not the case with many of the following checks.

- Dusk Mane Necrozma practically counters Lugia and most of the relevant Arceus formes not named Arceus-Dark or Arceus-Ground and even they hate coming in on a Toxic.

- Magearna also checks Yveltal, Lugia, and some of the more passive Arceus formes that can't do much to get around it.

- Celesteela hard counters most Mega Salamence sets and can deal with Rayquaza and Primal Groudon variants that don't pack Fire-type coverage.

- Ferrothorn is one of the best Primal Kyogre checks in the game next to Primal Groudon.

- Both Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon scare away Dusk Mane Necrozma and most of the other Steel-types in the meta.

Now, many of these checks were here before USM, but Dusk Mane Necrozma gave Ubers one of Xerneas's worst nightmares that can also check a huge portion of the metagame, and Magearna is much better now than it was in the previous meta thanks to the prevalence of Gothitelle (Volt Switch is a life saver) and Yveltal's increased usage.

The best part is that outside of Primal Groudon, all of these Pokemon have ways of sustaining themselves, whether it's Leech Seed, Pain Split, Moonlight, or Recover depending on the mon. Magearna even got access to Z-Heal Bell this gen as another recovery option.
 
#25
Yveltal does the same job and does it arguably better, especially as it can beat Primal Groudon easily and doesn't even need a move like Nature's Madness to be a threat. Tapu Koko is hindered by many things, including but not limited to Thunder's low accuracy and exploitability by Primal Groudon, the most common Pokemon in the tier, its weakness to Ground, and its low stats barring Speed.
The main selling point of Koko is to provide a stallbreaker that can switch into every variants of Yveltal, while Yveltal itself can not do this. This niche should be reflected in the rankings. You mention its speed as its only asset while it's far from the truth. The ability to revenge kill Marshadow and other mon due to its speed is just another plus, so it is certainly also useful against offensive teams.

Weakness to P-Don is a problem but this increases the value of having Nature Madness, while the weakness to Ground does not matter since it is U-turning anyway and Koko does not like to take hits anyway from anything offensive not named Yveltal/Arceus-Dark. Low stats are remedied by electric terrain and magnet giving Koko decent power, or electrium Z if you want a big hit on the likes of support Arceus.

Keep in mind that I'm nominating for C ranks. Of course Yveltal is better as a whole, but no one else can fulfill Koko's niche.

If Zekrom is struggling in this meta, why do you think Tapu Koko, a Pokemon inferior to it in almost every way barring Speed, would be much better?
Now I don't understand. Why are you comparing the two mon when the only similarity they share is the electric typing?

Now, if many of the Xerneas checks in Ubers were ranked in the higher tiers simply based on their ability to check Xerneas and nothing else, ..., then I'd agree that Xerneas should go to S, but that's not the case with many of the following checks.
Fair enough.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 6, Guests: 3)

Top