Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

[Ropalme1914]

On the topic proposed: I'm fine with how S-rank is, tbh, and Ultra Necrozma deserves its place there. IMO, the S-rank should be the Pokémon that really define the meta around it and can really not just changes the teams just by them slapping one or two answers to it, but capable of changing the complete structure itself (like how Unecro basically makes stall needing to use Mgar and, sometimes, other Dark-types, and Mega Gengar making those teams needing to use Shed Shell on a lot of Pokémon or kinda go out of their way to put a Pursuit trapper, even if they hace utility against other Pokémon) while also still putting a lot of work against them and never being deadweight or close to it against every other playstyle (so, even if Marshadow did change HO, it still won't be as useful as the S-ranks against bulkier teams, for example).
Also, this can be controversial, but I'm not opposed to Dusk Mane not being top of S: offensively, Ultra Necrozma is a better setup sweeper overall in my opinion, Dark-types are huge now (which is bad for both, but Unecro at least can outspeed them), and even if Sp. Def still is decent, it isn't anything special that really breaks many teams outside of those that are extremely passive, and I'm not a huge fan of it tbh. I'm also fine with it being where it is (mostly due to SD + TR being so good too), but I'm not sure if it is undoubtedly the number 2 Pokémon anymore (though it still should stay in S).

 

[JdRDMS]

Mega Salamence: A -> Higher in A/A+

Short history lesson you can read if you want

So I went onto the sample team thread because I wanted to try something new. I decided to try the Standard CM Kyogre + DD Mega Salamence Bulky Offense team. And after testing it out on the ladder, I'm convinced that Mega Salamence needs to rise.

Okay, so for starters, this thing is really strong. +1 Double-Edge can OHKO and 2HKO a lot of things.

Calcs

+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 279-328 (74 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 400-472 (114.6 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Yveltal: 333-393 (73 - 86.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Xerneas: 313-369 (68.7 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Arceus-Ground: 339-400 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Arceus-Dark: 313-369 (70.4 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Arceus-Water: 354-417 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 223-264 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Giratina-Origin: 331-390 (75 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

There's more as well, but I think I can leave it at that. Combine these calcs with outspeeding a lot of the meta at +1, and even a good amount at +0, decent bulk (backed up by Intimidate from its base form), and reliable recovery, and you've got a mon that I think is underrated at the moment.

I'm not a great Ubers player, so constructive criticism is much appreciated.

Replays to be added.

 

[Luniitic]

Groudon: D >>> B (Below Lugia yet above Klefki)

My Reasoning: Although Groudon is heavily overshadowed by it's Devolution, I see that it currently has lot's of potential. The thing that makes Groudon stand out to me is it's typing. Although Primal Groudon only has one weakness with the exception of Water, which is ground, Groudon doesn't have the weakness that makes Primal Groudon get one shot by other Pdon, but it has the capability to one shot Pdon. In simple terms: Groudon is an effective check/counter to Primal Groudon- and an even better lead. Primal Groudon doesn't have an assured 2HKO on offensive Groudon while Groudon has an assured OHKO on Primal Groudon, which makes it an intimidating lead. In addition to that, without the need of Red Orb, a useful item can be held in place such as leftovers for some sustainability, which works well with Thunder Wave. Although Primal Groudon doesn't need T-wave, Groudon can use it as a benefit and it's extremely useful in the current metagame for the XY legends and Ultra Necro which also can't OHKO it.

Thanks to it's ground typing, it doesn't need to rely on Desolate Land and is as well safe from opposing EQ, and is helpful to nullify opposing Thunder Wave. Although it is rather weak to Xerneas, Thunder Wave is useful in case of an Xerneas attempting to set up on it. Along with this, if played properly, Groudon can be a rather big headache. Groudon tops all setup leads, OHKO-ing Necrozma Dusk Mane, Primal Groudon, Safe from Excadrill, making Ferrothorn beg for mercy with fire punch, a better match-up against Groundceus, still effective against Toxapex, not as scared from Landorus T, ability to halt Cloyster, making Skarmory useless, and more.

Also although this may not matter, with the use of Thunder Wave, pretty much everything below Klefki loses to Groudon with the exception of Palkia, MSableye, Grasseus, MSlowbro, and Kyurem.

I would like this to be considered due to the amount of potential Groudon has in the current metagame.

 

[Vengeance417]

View attachment 156650
Groudon: D >>> B (Below Lugia yet above Klefki)

My Reasoning: Although Groudon is heavily overshadowed by it's Devolution, I see that it currently has lot's of potential. The thing that makes Groudon stand out to me is it's typing. Although Primal Groudon only has one weakness with the exception of Water, which is ground, Groudon doesn't have the weakness that makes Primal Groudon get one shot by other Pdon, but it has the capability to one shot Pdon. In simple terms: Groudon is an effective check/counter to Primal Groudon- and an even better lead. Primal Groudon doesn't have an assured 2HKO on offensive Groudon while Groudon has an assured OHKO on Primal Groudon, which makes it an intimidating lead. In addition to that, without the need of Red Orb, a useful item can be held in place such as leftovers for some sustainability, which works well with Thunder Wave. Although Primal Groudon doesn't need T-wave, Groudon can use it as a benefit and it's extremely useful in the current metagame for the XY legends and Ultra Necro which also can't OHKO it.

Thanks to it's ground typing, it doesn't need to rely on Desolate Land and is as well safe from opposing EQ, and is helpful to nullify opposing Thunder Wave. Although it is rather weak to Xerneas, Thunder Wave is useful in case of an Xerneas attempting to set up on it. Along with this, if played properly, Groudon can be a rather big headache. Groudon tops all setup leads, OHKO-ing Necrozma Dusk Mane, Primal Groudon, Safe from Excadrill, making Ferrothorn beg for mercy with fire punch, a better match-up against Groundceus, still effective against Toxapex, not as scared from Landorus T, ability to halt Cloyster, making Skarmory useless, and more.

Also although this may not matter, with the use of Thunder Wave, pretty much everything below Klefki loses to Groudon with the exception of Palkia, MSableye, Grasseus, MSlowbro, and Kyurem.

I would like this to be considered due to the amount of potential Groudon has in the current metagame.

I think B is a serious reach, to be honest. I don't doubt the fact that regular Groudon may be better than D and could rise, but the main reason it was down there to begin with was the massive opportunity cost of not being able to run Primal Groudon.

I will say that regular Groudon can also run Z Crystals, unlike Pdon. It could run something like Dragonium Z to catch some of its Dragon-type checks, such as Giratina A/O, ZyGod, Mega Mence, etc. If this mon were to move up, I think it being ranked alongside regular Kyogre would be a good start, and then build up from there to see if regular Groudon can continue to prove itself.

 

[The Dovahneer]

View attachment 156650
Groudon: D >>> B (Below Lugia yet above Klefki)

My Reasoning: Although Groudon is heavily overshadowed by it's Devolution, I see that it currently has lot's of potential. The thing that makes Groudon stand out to me is it's typing. Although Primal Groudon only has one weakness with the exception of Water, which is ground, Groudon doesn't have the weakness that makes Primal Groudon get one shot by other Pdon, but it has the capability to one shot Pdon. In simple terms: Groudon is an effective check/counter to Primal Groudon- and an even better lead. Primal Groudon doesn't have an assured 2HKO on offensive Groudon while Groudon has an assured OHKO on Primal Groudon, which makes it an intimidating lead. In addition to that, without the need of Red Orb, a useful item can be held in place such as leftovers for some sustainability, which works well with Thunder Wave. Although Primal Groudon doesn't need T-wave, Groudon can use it as a benefit and it's extremely useful in the current metagame for the XY legends and Ultra Necro which also can't OHKO it.

Thanks to it's ground typing, it doesn't need to rely on Desolate Land and is as well safe from opposing EQ, and is helpful to nullify opposing Thunder Wave. Although it is rather weak to Xerneas, Thunder Wave is useful in case of an Xerneas attempting to set up on it. Along with this, if played properly, Groudon can be a rather big headache. Groudon tops all setup leads, OHKO-ing Necrozma Dusk Mane, Primal Groudon, Safe from Excadrill, making Ferrothorn beg for mercy with fire punch, a better match-up against Groundceus, still effective against Toxapex, not as scared from Landorus T, ability to halt Cloyster, making Skarmory useless, and more.

Also although this may not matter, with the use of Thunder Wave, pretty much everything below Klefki loses to Groudon with the exception of Palkia, MSableye, Grasseus, MSlowbro, and Kyurem.

I would like this to be considered due to the amount of potential Groudon has in the current metagame.

I second the idea of moving regular Groudon up in rank, however B is a serious stretch considering the fact you cant run Primal Groudon alongside it. Similar logic is used behind subpar Arceus forms which, while having some individual use, are overshadowed due to just how good their alternate forms are and the opportunity cost associated. A rank of C or C+ seems appropriate in my eyes. It fills a significant defensive niche of being a fat Ground type that isn't an Arceus form which allows it to check some variants of its Primal form. In addition it has a free item slot, making certain sets lethal (SD RP being something I've experimented with, it isn't checked by Arceus-Ground and can run either Groundium or Rockium Z to obliterate some of its other checks) and is a good surprise option, many not even realizing the Groudon isn't primal.

I think B is a serious reach, to be honest. I don't doubt the fact that regular Groudon may be better than D and could rise, but the main reason it was down there to begin with was the massive opportunity cost of not being able to run Primal Groudon.

I will say that regular Groudon can also run Z Crystals, unlike Pdon. It could run something like Dragonium Z to catch some of its Dragon-type checks, such as Giratina A/O, ZyGod, Mega Mence, etc. If this mon were to move up, I think it being ranked alongside regular Kyogre would be a good start, and then build up from there to see if regular Groudon can continue to prove itself.

The problem with this analogy is that regular Groudon is far more versatile in what it can do without being directly overshadowed by the Primal form. Regular Kyogre typically only runs choice sets to either act as a powerful revenge killer and late game cleaner or a wrecking ball used to smash slow teams. Running almost anything else falls into either niche meme territory or a set that makes you think "why don't I just run Primal Kyogre?" I think individually, it has more value and viability than regular Kyogre despite how effective those sets can be at times.

 

[JdRDMS]

Oh boi another nomination

Arceus-Normal -> Higher in A-
Another mon from the CM Kyogre Sample team (I still think Primal Kyogre should be A+ but I digress). Extreme Killer is honestly so good, with +2 Extreme Speed dealing a LOT of damage to pretty much anything that doesn't resist it, with Shadow Claw providing good coverage, with Recover (the fourth move on the sample team) providing reliable recovery, topped off by decent bulk. There's also Normalium Z, which I personally haven't tried but it adds some variety to Normalceus. Mega Sableye, one Arceus-Normal's best checks, just fell from B to B- in the recent VR update, which helps Normalceus out because, well, its one of its best checks. Overall, this is another mon that I think is slightly underrated at the moment.

 

[Luniitic]

Oh boi another nomination

Arceus-Normal -> Higher in A-/Bottom of A
Another mon from the CM Kyogre Sample team (I still think Primal Kyogre should be A+ but I digress). Extreme Killer is honestly so good, with +2 Extreme Speed dealing a LOT of damage to pretty much anything that doesn't resist it, with Shadow Claw providing good coverage, with Recover (the fourth move on the sample team) providing reliable recovery, topped off by decent bulk. There's also Normalium Z, which I personally haven't tried but it adds some variety to Normalceus. Mega Sableye, one Arceus-Normal's best checks, just fell from B to B- in the recent VR update, which helps Normalceus out because, well, its one of its best checks. Overall, this is another mon that I think is underrated at the moment.

EKiller is an old meta so it's most likely adjusted to where it already stands. In addition to that I could probably explain why. First off, just because of Mega Sableye's viability dropped doesn't mean it will be used less because it has already been recognized as a good mon to use, also some teams have already been built with Mega Sableye. Second, just because of one set doesn't mean Arceus should have a higher viability, as versatility is more important. For example, look at the top 9 viable pokemon - Primal Groudon has a lot of sets that makes it extremely versatile, very threatening, and extremely viable in combination with it's stats and fatal ability; Same with Necrozma Dusk Mane, TR Weakness, SPD Tank, SR, Double Dance, and Unecro; Mega Gengar is there because of speed tier + Stag, which is self explanatory; Ultra Necro can be unpredictable and can play mind games; Yveltal has Scarf, Specs, Phys Tank, etc; Xern has Geo but even better has Scarf, and can be a support mon; Zygarde-c Has a lot of HP, access to glare and Dragon dance, and a move that hits most of the tier and the 3 most viable mons as super effective; Marshadow steals stat boosts and outspeeds a lot of the tier; Groudceus is good for set up and a reliable check. Arceus Normal is decently limited, as it doesn't have a response to Primal Groudon and Necrozma Dusk Mane, the two most abundant pokemon in the tier. Primal Groudon survives a +2 Extreme Speed after rocks and in return can deal massive damage. Necrozma Dusk Mane survives a +2 Shadow claw, can do Sunsteel first turn, ultra next turn and beat Arceus. Mega Gengar out speeds and can will-o-wisp, and overall it only has one advantage overall- Extreme speed. Along with this, since the recognition for Ekiller is high among skilled players, it's highly doubted that they wouldn't be able to handle Ekiller, which can fault easily. Another reason why this shouldn't be elevated in viability is due to species clause. For the same reason why Groudon is considered unviable, you are only allowed to have one Arceus on your team. This removes opportunities for support Arceus formes and you are putting your faith on a gimmick. I do not think I need to explain more, but one set doesn't make something viable especially if it has been around in the meta for years.

This mon definitely isn't underated. It's still in the A group. Also Primal Kyogre is in A for a reason(Most likely will drop due to Unecro being considered for a suspect test, encouraging the use of it.). It used to be A+ but then dropped. It's sensible due to the amount of Primal Groudon and physical attackers in the current meta.

 

[orch]

Ekiller has been primarily used as a method to revenge kill dangerous threats such as Xerneas. The problem is that, there is a clear and bold rise in defensive strategies in SM/USUM. Ekiller simply does not have tools to break the new defensive strategies nor its necessary to dedicate slots to an ekiller on your teams. USUM Ekiller's best use is to lure in Marshadow with a Chople berry, so that your ghosts/psychics aren't threatened by SS/Pursuit from Marshadow. In fact, I think that Arceus-Bug is clearly more useful than this pokemon. Demote Arceus to C rank.

 

[Lotus]

A- -> B+

Toxapex has been a Pokemon that less and less balance teams would elect to use as its flaws started outweighing its positives. Its inability to check Primal Groudon and Necrozma-DM as a Water-type, stacking Ground weakness with its common teammates, and Toxic Spikes being somewhat inconsistent support with Mega Gengar's continued (if not increased) prevalence makes Toxapex a Pokemon that has more opportunity cost from using. While its ability to check Marshadow and various support Arceus formes are notable, there are better Pokemon that can do the similar without being passive as Toxapex.

B+ -> B or lower

Arceus-Flying commonly sees its usage as a mono-attack Calm Mind sweeper, but I can't stop thinking about the fact that there are so many other Flying-types that provide the team with better utility and more immediate offensive presence. While other common Flying-types like Mega Salamence and Ho-Oh boast much greater bulk, better defensive typing, and valuable utilities like Defog, and the likes of Yveltal are typically better at pressuring loosely prepared teams, Arceus-Flying fails to do any of these. There can be an argument that running 252 / 160 / 96+ spread can allow Arceus-Flying to be a check to Marshadow, but I do not believe this (and possibly other use that I may be overlooking) is enough to treat Arceus-Flying as a Pokemon that can be valuable as a B+ rank when it fails to reliably check anything in particular (more than anything I do not call this Pokemon an answer to Ground-types), has to wait for its checks like Necrozma-DM or Magearna to be significantly worn down to properly function, and further mandates the team to have some kind of entry hazard removal support or enter the field with 75% health fairly often. I hope I don't sound like I disregard the value of Calm Mind Arceus forme, but I believe Arceus-Dark is a better alternative because it is more independent and has synergy with Pokemon like Mega Gengar, and there are also other users of Calm Mind to consider, such as Arceus-Ground.

B -> B-

B- -> B

Defensive teams have been commonly employing Giratina that can check more threats and punish more checks than Lugia does; while Lugia boasts greater bulk with Multiscale, its vulnerability to Shadow Tag and extreme reliance to entry hazard removal and cleric support makes it almost inferior to Giratina at this point. Threats that Lugia can check but Giratina cannot, such as Xerneas, are sufficiently covered by teammates as long as the teams are properly built. Lugia's inability to independently overcome status, extreme vulnerability to Necrozma-DM, and inferior matchup against varying passive Pokemon that Giratina can PP stall makes its presence in defensive teams more questionable.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

hey, id like to make some comments on some mons. s/os to Chazm for discussing with me on discord:

First off Toxapex to B+ is too lenient, this mon should go way further down - like low B or even B- even. The way shit plays out its just not worth using and hasn't been in a long time. It folds to the teams Marsh tends to be on these day since Ygod + Unec really just shit on this and the spikes balance of Ferro really dont help it either. Also CM Fairyceus is the only set that really works for fairyceus and tox aint doing shit to that and in the end... guess it kinda checks those but then why bother. Hasn't been good since forever.

Also, MM2Y is absolute garbage and should drop pretty hard - not sure where but B- seems fair. This really doesn't do anything. With the overprep for unec and the general amounts of faster marsh + yveltal shit running around as the dominant teams this really cannot get many breaks rn. It's not like its really good vs balance, marsh + ferro spikes balance is the best balance archetype around and that shits on it too. I dont see a reason to use this over the virtually unwallable Unec against fatter teams except maybe the Gar MU but its still not great with it as it still struggles to break, needing all of recover/cm/psystrike/fire blast/focus blast and this just dicks it over. Even with the Gar MU this absolutely should not be anywhere as high as it is rn, hasn't been good in a long long time.

also i dont think this should be dropping much if at all. It doesnt really "compete" with ho-oh (which imo is still ass orch wasn't wrong) and mence because it doesn't do *anywhere* near the same things. yeah its a flying that doesnt really check the grounds which does mark it more restrictive on building but imo it really fits on the slower builds where thats already covered. granted those aren't the best rn so yeah it could go for a small drop but idt its worth going to B, def. better than a lot of the shit in B+. On those fatter teams i definitely like it over Darkceus which ive always believed to be awful (doesnt really MU too well against a lot of the balances that can fit magearna or a spikes core, also doesnt really deal with Webs all that great imo compared to fly).

ill just leave it at this for now, i think there are still some more things that could be changed ofc but I'll probably go over those later.

 

[Eliwi]

Alolan Muk:C -> UR
I'm not really good, but I think that Alolan Muk must be untiered. Why? He is a little bit unaviable in this tier and you can't see it in the meta, being useless actually.
The commom offensive form of Necrozma DM is destroying this thing, cause muk don't do much damage with Knock Off, the only attack that can damage it, does minimun damage if he is wearing Ultranecozmium Z, and later countering with Earthquake, and if not, he can stall it with Morning Sun and later using Sunsteel Strike, but being more damaged by Knock Off. Same thing with Pdon, that OHKOes with Precipice Blades and don't take much damage from it. Yes, it counter Xerneas without HP ground and also he does it bad due to its neutral damage to Xerneas's moonblast, but that's his only good thing with some more counters like Gengar-Mega, and there are much Earthquake users in this tier, that can severely damage or kill Muk. If you want a special tank, better use another thing, like Magearna, Blissey or anything else.
If you find something strange, is because my corrector hates me.
Also: I agree with Toxapex lowering to B+ or B, not to B-, it can keep doing more than Muk.
EDIT: I agree with Marshadow higher and Yveltal, and I want to say something: Sash Marshadow would be great. A good hazard controller, and he can steal some boosts from sweepers like Xerneas, M-Salamence, Zygarde... Later, you use Drain Punch to restore health, maybe Shadow Ball if you steal a Xerneas, and the obious Spectral Thief, then a free slot. Use the EV's in attack, and special attack (to do more damage) and all the other EV's in speed, with a +spd -sdf (special defense) and Yveltal... the scarf, life orb, etc... are actually great.
Other things that I agree with:
Groudon:D -> C (not to B, that's too high)
Arceus-Flying:B+ -> B low
Salamence-Mega:A -> higher in A
Lugia:B -> B- but high
Arceus-Normal:A- -> B+ (Arceus is a good sweeper, but I prefer it bulky or wallbreaker, not sweeper)
Thanks for reading.

 

[Hookah Doncic]

smeargle should be looked at and can you really say Webs/smeargle really A- in this meta. I say A- to B/Lower for Smeargle

Webs isnt as strong as it was couple months ago and usage of anti webs mons like Defog Mence,Trick Room Dusk-Mane,Scarf Defog Ho-oh ,and Magic Coat Groundeus risen. Just overall I think web is well prep for and is considered all the time when team building.

B to Bottom B+ for Kelfki

S/O to Terracotta showing me how aids marsh+swagger spikes kelfki. I think kelfki is great because of its typing+pankster spikes+status moves. Having the ability to cheese yourself out with swagger+twave is unreal kinda works in the same way glare zygod does. Overall its pretty nice right now seen some tour play lately with people like garay oak,terracotta, and myself plus more other. Here’s a replay of keys doing work. Please excuse my mega sceptile it was for memes
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-866334819
Toxapex A- to B+
Lotus said pretty much what I gotta say. Nice post

Arceus-Fairy A- to A
Arceus-Fairy seen alot usage in exhibition. With its status thunder wave support set to punish switchs like ferro,duskmane, and gar and to its calm mind set which is really scary to face because how good fairy is as an offensive typing and defensively too. I will edit the post and drop some replays soon to show what its capable of.

 

[Nayrz]

Here's the new pre-UPL update. Sheet's here. As usual, more noms were discussed than actually happened, which you can find on the sheet. Serial EKiller has also decided to step down from the VR Council, so we'd like to thank him for his work in the community.

The next update will likely be after UPL's conclusion and follow its metagame development, so be sure to keep an eye on the tournament!

Update List:

Mega Salamence: Rises inside A
Arceus-Normal: A- >> A (bottom of A)
Lunala: A >> A- (Top of A-)
Toxapex: A- >> B+ (above Arceus-Flying)
Giratina: B- >> B (bottom of B)
Lugia: B >> B- (top of B-)
Celesteela: B >> B- (above Mega Sableye)
Gothitelle / Gothorita: B >> B- (above Mega Lucario)

Side note: All the Pokemon on our VR now also have hyperlinked analyses!

 

[bigtalk]

edit: Made a new post below

Arceus-Water: A >> A-

This mon has annoying 4MSS that limits the amount of the utility it can provide to a team. No Judgment means you can't deal with Ho-oh / Steel-types. No Toxic means Groudon can use you as setup fodder, which is troubling when you're supposed to be a reliable check to it. Ice Beam is basically mandatory unless you have another answer for Zygarde-C / Salamence, very rare since people usually use their support Arceus to deal with those mons. Therefore you need to run Judgment / Ice Beam / Toxic / Recover for the most effectiveness, meaning that you do not provide any sort of hazard-related utility and will need to dedicate 2 other team slots to SR/defog outside of Arceus. (Even if you put defog on it, it doesn't do its job very well, because Groudon can trade toxic with you and spam rocks, unlike with Arceus-Ground who offensively pressures out Groudon.) It also cannot switch into Kyogre very well, being 2HKO'd by Water Spout / Thunder and not being able to do anything back except Toxic + spamming Recover (and you're fucked if they get a para). It's not a bad mon by any means but IMO creates holes that need to be patched up by teammates.

Arceus-Dark: A >> A-

I appreciate its niche as a SR/defog user and utility check to Zygarde/Salamence that can't be trapped, but outside of that I feel like Yveltal does its job a little better. The latter checks Psychic/Ghost types without having a nasty Fighting weakness, in particular not creating a weakness to Marshadow that needs to be patched up by teammates. Yveltal also has much higher damage output, and doesn't have to worry about being in range of a hit from a MM2Y/Deoxys-A/boosted Unec if wearing a scarf (the former two can pick off Arceus after just 30% of prior chip).

Naganadel: B >> B- or lower

It's very hard for this mon to get setup opportunities. Just about everything on offense will severely weaken or OHKO it due to its poor bulk, it doesn't help that support Arceus commonly carries Ice Beam for Zygarde/Salamence either. It really wants to fit Substitute in its moveslot to catch people trying to pivot/burn the Z-move but it can't, so trying to sweep with it necessitates getting some mindgames right. It finds ample setup opportunities vs. stall, but that archetype isn't very common.

Man this thing is so strong, if you don't have a Ho-oh / Toxapex on your team it can absolutely destroy you once it gets to +2. Even unboosted it has lethal damage output, and gets access to priority which lets it revenge kill Xerneas. I think such power combined with a great speed tier warrants more than B-.

Tyranitar: B- >> C+, Alolan Muk: C >> C+

Similar reasoning as with Arceus-Dark, I don't think Tyranitar shouldn't be advertised as a check to psychics/ghosts when it has a quad-weakness to Fighting. Lunala, MM2Y and Gengar can all outspeed and KO it with Focus Blast. The band set can't actually switch into Ho-oh, which Ttar is supposed to check, and neither Ho-oh or Yveltal care about Pursuit. Unlike in OU, there's plenty of fat shit around that can eat up a banded hit such as Groudon / Zygarde / support Arceus which can recover off the damage or use it as setup fodder.

I don't think Alolan Muk should be too highly ranked bc its rather weak, but it has an amazing typing that lets it reliably trap said threats since it's not weak to Fighting. It also has a decent ability that prevents it from being taken advantage of too easily, and can remove boosts from Geo Xern in a pinch making it easier for teammates to deal with.

 

[Lotus]

Does Arceus-Water 'create a hole' in the team? It is in fact one of the most reliable choice of an Arceus forme if you plan to get a durable Pokemon that can blanket check a lot of threats. I don't understand how does it create a hole when it switches into a ton of Pokemon with relatively low risk and can worst manage to weaken Pokemon it is intended to blanket check. Also I don't understand why do you believe Arceus formes are obliged to engage in entry hazard control when, as you mentioned, four moveslots are often not enough for most Arceus formes. Arceus-Ground doesn't necessarily do a better job switching into Primal Groudon because as long as Primal Groudon lacks Swords Dance and Toxic, Arceus-Water can comfortably be a check and isn't forced to use Recover and stay chipped after switching into Overheat. What is stated about the downsides of the Arceus-Water may be considered valid, but I don't think it is justifiable to completely ignore the positives it brings to the team by being at worst a check to Primal Groudon, Necrozma-DM, Ho-Oh, Arceus-Ground... or other Pokemon that are commonly seen and are difficult to handle.

I think it has a great niche as a SR/defog user that can't be trapped, but outside of that I feel like Yveltal does its job a little better.

I frankly don't understand what is this about, but Arceus-Dark has enough bulk to have a defensive presence against Ghost-types instead of Yveltal that can be shaky due to its less bulk and weakness to Stealth Rock. Yveltal's neutrality to Fighting doesn't sound like a valid argument to justify Arceus-Dark's inferiority as a Dark-type because Yveltal can't switch into Marshadow too well (unless Stealth Rock isn't present in the field and Yveltal is running a defensive set, which is far less threatening and has narrower pool of pokemon it can check when compared with Arceus-Dark). Both of the Pokemon differ in damage output, but they fulfill different role. Yveltal is mostly used due to its offensive capability that are visible from LO and scarf sets but Arceus-Dark can actually be a bulkier Dark-type with reliable recovery, having an option to prevail against other Pokemon like Zygarde if using Ice Beam, set Stealth Rock for the team, and more. Again, downsides aren't completely disagreeable but I think the awkward comparison and the complete ignorance of the positives of the Pokemon in the question aren't the valid ways to support this Pokemon's demotion.

Mega Lucario has been on a steady decline since the point where most Arceus formes were benchmarked to outspeed it, meaning Mega Lucario has little or no chance to outright win against common teams by itself. Its other utilities are valuable but taking up a Mega Slot and being a Steel-type that can't pivot into Xerneas are disappointing to an extent. Its offensive potential is limited unless it is offered with Sticky Web support, which again, suffers from common mons that counter webs, and is questionable to use over Ultra Necrozma.

I don't mind about what happens to the rest. With that out of the way...

B+ -> B

Rayquaza at +1 should be dreaded, and so should be mixed the mixed Life Orb set that very few Pokemon can switch into. But I feel like a wallbreaker that doesn't have much (if not no) defensive presence and barely finds safe setup opportunities, and thus usually only finds its place in offensive teams is far from B+. If I were to use a balance breaker that has little or no defensive presence and can run over Arceus formes with minimal support I'd rather use something like Deoxys-A. Maybe this nomination can be considered controversial due to how scary this Pokemon be if it manages to set up successfully. But I think Rayquaza is one of the unfortunate powerhouses that is facing the reality of 'if these conditions are fulfilled' pretty much being a dream on paper and that powerhouses are typically expected to provide other utility. I see less and less users electing to use Rayquaza outside of specialized teams dedicated to its success or offensive teams where people just don't care about Rayquaza's aforementioned drawbacks.

 

[bigtalk]

Does Arceus-Water 'create a hole' in the team? It is in fact one of the most reliable choice of an Arceus forme if you plan to get a durable Pokemon that can blanket check a lot of threats. I don't understand how does it create a hole when it switches into a ton of Pokemon with relatively low risk and can worst manage to weaken Pokemon it is intended to blanket check.

Depending on which of Judgment / Toxic / Stealth Rock / Defog you forego you will be unable to check a certain threat or will not have entry hazard control, so you will need other teammates to check those threats or fulfill those entry hazard roles. For example, on this team I forewent Judgment on it, so I added Overheat / Rock Tomb Groudon to set rocks and deal with Ho-oh / steel-types.

because as long as Primal Groudon lacks Swords Dance and Toxic

Well its pretty common for it to carry one of the two. Even Rock Tomb variants can start pressuring you, because pblades hits before you can recover. Meanwhile you are doing less than 25% back with ice beam

Also I don't understand why do you believe Arceus formes are obliged to engage in entry hazard control when, as you mentioned, four moveslots are often not enough for most Arceus forms.

They're not obliged, but IMO they're often the most convenient and splashable defoggers available. Others tend to be slow, or you have to scarf lock into defog.

Yveltal can't switch into Marshadow too well

Yup, I was only saying that it isn't forced out by Marshadow.

Arceus-Dark can actually be a bulkier Dark-type with reliable recovery, having an option to prevail against other Pokemon like Zygarde if using Ice Beam, set Stealth Rock for the team, and more

What differentiates that from other Arceus forms, though? You can slap Stealth Rock + Ice Beam onto many different Arceus forms and say you have a Zygarde check. The answer is obviously that Arceus-Dark provides role compression in checking psychics/ghosts as well, and I was trying to argue that Yveltal overshadows it in that regard.

 

[TopTierOUThreats6]

I believe the Mewtwo forms are ranked way too low (Regular Mewtwo is C, X is C+ and Y is B+) because of their ridiculous strength and coverage. I understand there are notable checks, such as Xerneas, Necrozma DM, whatever, but Mewtwo is one of the most versatile, ridiculous attackers in the tier. Also, it has an amazing 130 speed tier, which even without a helping speed nature, can outspeed a decent portion of the metagame: especially with Mewtwo X's Steadfast. Even in some cases, Mewtwo is naturally stronger than +2 Extreme Killer Arceus, who it also outspeeds. Mewtwo is also incredibly unique compared to other special attackers, being one of few Pokemon to get a reliable special attacking Fighting type move. Also, regular Mewtwo is actually quite powerful, when comparing it to some other Pokemon in the Uber tier who possess 150 Special attack, as oppose to 154 (and backed up by life orb). As for X, while technically outclassed by Mega Lucario, depletes other threats Lucario can't handle such as Zygarde-C. As many of you reading this might know, its most common move is Low Kick, who can surprise Chansey and Blissey, thinking they had an easy counter. And for the others weak to it, that's all that needs to be said. You could run whatever coverage you want, just slap on anything alongside Low Kick and Taunt, and appropiate EV spreads. And for Mega Mewtwo Y, the strongest uboosted attacker in the game.

Mewtwo (Regular) C -> C+/B-
Mewtwo X C+ -> B+/A-
Mewtwo Y B+ -> A/A-

 

[Kyuzeth]

Mewtwo (Regular) C -> C+/B-
Mewtwo X C+ -> B+/A-
Mewtwo Y B+ -> A/A-

Mewtwo unfortunately suffers from a mediocre typing within the tier's context (mostly base and MMY). MMY also faces competition from other offensive Mega Evolutions, and that argument applies even more so to MMX, who has to compete with Mega Salamence as a physically offensive Mega. Their matchups against Ubers staples, including Yveltal and Dusk Mane Necrozma, are also unfortunate, further reducing their viability.

MMY largely has its merits through its Speed tier of 140 and being a very strong special attacker along with a more useful Ability, which make it outshine its base form, but it's not good enough to rise.

 

[TopTierOUThreats6]

Mewtwo unfortunately suffers from a mediocre typing within the tier's context (mostly base and MMY). MMY also faces competition from other offensive Mega Evolutions, and that argument applies even more so to MMX, who has to compete with Mega Salamence as a physically offensive Mega. Their matchups against Ubers staples, including Yveltal and Dusk Mane Necrozma, are also unfortunate, further reducing their viability.

MMY largely has its merits through its Speed tier of 140 and being a very strong special attacker along with a more useful Ability, which make it outshine its base form, but it's not good enough to rise.

Sure, I agree Psychic is not a great defensive or attacking type in Ubers, but to know which type of move to choose on it is difficult. If you use a dark move, it could be Mega Mewtwo X, and then you let a terrifying threat run wild. And if Mewtwo had Ice Beam or Low Kick, Yveltal was dead weight. So will Mega Salamence, if Mewtwo runs Ice Punch or Ice Beam, and that isn't that rare. Many of Mewtwo's other 'checks' also fear it, from the sheer versatility of the Mewtwo Megas. For example, Xerneas might expect Mega Mewtwo X, but transforms into Mega Mewtwo Y, and tanks a hit, forcing it to either use Moonblast again, or die anyway with Geomancy. Sure, this is Ubers, and other staples can put fear into their checks, but we are talking Mewtwo here: C, C+ and B+ RESPECTIVELY? Sure there are ways to stop it; bring in the primals or Dusk Mane Necrozma, but every Pokemon is flawless.

 

[whatever123]

I believe the Mewtwo forms are ranked way too low (Regular Mewtwo is C, X is C+ and Y is B+) because of their ridiculous strength and coverage. I understand there are notable checks, such as Xerneas, Necrozma DM, whatever, but Mewtwo is one of the most versatile, ridiculous attackers in the tier. Also, it has an amazing 130 speed tier, which even without a helping speed nature, can outspeed a decent portion of the metagame: especially with Mewtwo X's Steadfast. Even in some cases, Mewtwo is naturally stronger than +2 Extreme Killer Arceus, who it also outspeeds. Mewtwo is also incredibly unique compared to other special attackers, being one of few Pokemon to get a reliable special attacking Fighting type move. Also, regular Mewtwo is actually quite powerful, when comparing it to some other Pokemon in the Uber tier who possess 150 Special attack, as oppose to 154 (and backed up by life orb). As for X, while technically outclassed by Mega Lucario, depletes other threats Lucario can't handle such as Zygarde-C. As many of you reading this might know, its most common move is Low Kick, who can surprise Chansey and Blissey, thinking they had an easy counter. And for the others weak to it, that's all that needs to be said. You could run whatever coverage you want, just slap on anything alongside Low Kick and Taunt, and appropiate EV spreads. And for Mega Mewtwo Y, the strongest uboosted attacker in the game.

Mewtwo (Regular) C -> C+/B-
Mewtwo X C+ -> B+/A-
Mewtwo Y B+ -> A/A-

I don't necessarily disagree with those rises and could see Mewtwo-Y in A- and maybe regular Mewtwo higher, but I disagree with some of your points.

You say regular Mewtwo doesn't need to run Timid, but using Modest leaves it outspeed by Mega-Gengar, who can trap and revenge kill it without risking a speed tie. It can also matter against full speed Arceus formes like SD Arceus-Ground, though that's nowhere near as much of an issue.

Mewtwo getting Aura Sphere doesn't really matter too much, because it is too weak most of the time. For exemple:
(Using 216 spa because it is the spread with 40 defense that lives Shadow Sneak from Marshadow, but it doesn't affect the calculations too much)
216 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 200-236 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
216 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 298-352 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Aura Sphere vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 200-236 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
216 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 298-352 (67.5 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Focus Blast's extra damage is just too useful most of the time, requiring a lot less chip damage to kill, which matters a lot because Mewtwo doesn't have the best bulk relative to some other offensive threats, so it really doesn't want to miss out on those 1/2 hit kos and take a ton of unnecessary damage/faint (it's not frail or anything, it's just that uber threats hit very hard).

Mega-Mewtwo X just has too many problems. Yes, it fares better against Zygarde than Mega Lucario, but that's pretty much it. It struggles a lot with Arceus-Fairy and Mega-Sabley, both of which get smashed by Lucario's steel STABs, and is too matchup dependent.
I also don't think any good player would switch Chansey/Blissey into a Mewtwo unless if they read you going for a coverage move, since Psystrike does this:
216 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 288-340 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
216 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 312-368 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
So that point about Mewtwo-X luring them and surprising them with Low Kick doesn't make much sense.

I would also add that Marshadow is a huge pain to deal with for the special attacking Mewtwos, because of Technician Life Orb boosted Shadow Sneak, forcing you out every time you get a kill and making Mewtwo less threatening overall. You also face competition from Ultra-Necrozma, who is a more threatening wallbreaker that can muscle past its checks more easily (though it can get trapped by Mega-Gengar after it does, while Mewtwo-Y outspeeds it).

(This is just a really small nitpick and doesn't actually matter) Mega-Mawile, Mega Rayquaza (even before you take into account Life Orb, since Dragon Ascend has 120 power) and Primal-Kyogre(thanks to the rain boost) all hit harder unboosted than Mewtwo-Y.

That being said, Mewtwo does have fantastic coverage, a STAB to get past special walls and an incredible speed tier if you are using the Y-forme, making it super threatening since it is very difficult to switch into after your opponent's pokemon have taken some damage.

 

[gyter ph0]

hi everyone, this is my first real post on smogon so please forgive me if i make some mistake.
I play a lot of game on the ps uber ladd and i think that rotom wash deserves to be rank.

First of all he had an amazing type and talent levitate which enables him to tcheck some of the biggest threat
in uber such as primal groudon physical, nekrozma-dusk mane, ho-oh or mega-salamence. He also has
foul play to do some damage
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-877078114 with : 252 hp , 200 def and 56 spedef.

Secondly he can give you free momentum with a slow volt switch or just go for a toxic on really common who thinks
they can easily switch on rotom :
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-878287515
Third he is a great defoger especially against HO since he is not weak to sr and doesn't care of spikes.


However it's pretty hard for him to deal with strong special attacker such as eruption primal groudon and
he can't switch on offensive kyogre primal :

200+ SpA Drizzle Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rotom-Wash in Rain: 139-164 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Drought Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rotom-Wash in Sun: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rotom-Wash: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To conclude i think this mon has a great a great potential in uber since you can activate his berry most of the time
and is good to really popular mons. He has several options such as pain split, discharge and will o wisp.
Please do not hesitate to give me your own opinion on that post and mon ;).

 

[SacredLatias]

Alolan Muk:C -> UR
I'm not really good, but I think that Alolan Muk must be untiered. Why? He is a little bit unaviable in this tier and you can't see it in the meta, being useless actually.
The commom offensive form of Necrozma DM is destroying this thing, cause muk don't do much damage with Knock Off, the only attack that can damage it, does minimun damage if he is wearing Ultranecozmium Z, and later countering with Earthquake, and if not, he can stall it with Morning Sun and later using Sunsteel Strike, but being more damaged by Knock Off. Same thing with Pdon, that OHKOes with Precipice Blades and don't take much damage from it. Yes, it counter Xerneas without HP ground and also he does it bad due to its neutral damage to Xerneas's moonblast, but that's his only good thing with some more counters like Gengar-Mega, and there are much Earthquake users in this tier, that can severely damage or kill Muk. If you want a special tank, better use another thing, like Magearna, Blissey or anything else.
If you find something strange, is because my corrector hates me.
Also: I agree with Toxapex lowering to B+ or B, not to B-, it can keep doing more than Muk.
EDIT: I agree with Marshadow higher and Yveltal, and I want to say something: Sash Marshadow would be great. A good hazard controller, and he can steal some boosts from sweepers like Xerneas, M-Salamence, Zygarde... Later, you use Drain Punch to restore health, maybe Shadow Ball if you steal a Xerneas, and the obious Spectral Thief, then a free slot. Use the EV's in attack, and special attack (to do more damage) and all the other EV's in speed, with a +spd -sdf (special defense) and Yveltal... the scarf, life orb, etc... are actually great.
Other things that I agree with:
Groudon:D -> C (not to B, that's too high)
Arceus-Flying:B+ -> B low
Salamence-Mega:A -> higher in A
Lugia:B -> B- but high
Arceus-Normal:A- -> B+ (Arceus is a good sweeper, but I prefer it bulky or wallbreaker, not sweeper)
Thanks for reading.

Muks main use is on stall, which desperately needs it to deal with mega gengar. C- is justified, as it has a small niche, but a viable one nonetheless on more stally varients.

 

[Rasengan777]

View attachment 172600
hi everyone, this is my first real post on smogon so please forgive me if i make some mistake.
I play a lot of game on the ps uber ladd and i think that rotom wash deserves to be rank.

First of all he had an amazing type and talent levitate which enables him to tcheck some of the biggest threat
in uber such as primal groudon physical, nekrozma-dusk mane, ho-oh or mega-salamence. He also has
foul play to do some damage
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-877078114 with : 252 hp , 200 def and 56 spedef.

Secondly he can give you free momentum with a slow volt switch or just go for a toxic on really common who thinks
they can easily switch on rotom :
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-878287515
Third he is a great defoger especially against HO since he is not weak to sr and doesn't care of spikes.


However it's pretty hard for him to deal with strong special attacker such as eruption primal groudon and
he can't switch on offensive kyogre primal :

200+ SpA Drizzle Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rotom-Wash in Rain: 139-164 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Drought Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rotom-Wash in Sun: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rotom-Wash: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To conclude i think this mon has a great a great potential in uber since you can activate his berry most of the time
and is good to really popular mons. He has several options such as pain split, discharge and will o wisp.
Please do not hesitate to give me your own opinion on that post and mon ;).

I don't think Rotom-W deserves to be ranked. Believe me, I see what you're trying to say, and I"ve definitely experimented with it and tried to make it work, but it's defenses are so horrible that it get's 2hko'ed by basically everything in the tier so running a berry won't help anything. Oh yeah, I see what you're trying to say about it being a good defogger with levitate, but then I remembered that Giratina-O exists. It's role as a defogger is completely outclassed by the other foggers out there, and it can't take any hits.

Muks main use is on stall, which desperately needs it to deal with mega gengar. C- is justified, as it has a small niche, but a viable one nonetheless on more stally varients.

I agree, Muk's main role is as a pursuit trapper for Chansey on stall, and finds it's niche with it's good defensive typing, access to priority, good ability in poison touch, good defenses, and choice band makes it hit pretty hard.

I feel like Buzzwole should be included in the viability rankings. And be somewhere in the lines of B-. Great defense and hp let's it check a wide variety of physical attackers and Arc Ground. A bulk up set is amazing as a check to zygarde, with access to good recovery, and a move like drain punch or ice punch. Rocky Helmet as an item allows it to get amazing chip on physical attackers. Access to toxic allows it to tox mons and put it on a timer, and also catching switch ins to buzzwole such as xerneas and arceus fairy. It's a pretty good niche check to calm mind arc ground, where it can toxic and roost stall it. It can even check some dual dance dons, as it resists blades and is neutral withstone edge. Overall, Buzzwole is an amazing wall in ubers and deserves a spot in the Viability rankings.

 

[bigtalk]

Its been 2 months and I've gotten a lot more experience with this meta, so nvm my post above. I'm making new nominations.

Arceus-Water: A >> A-

I'm still keeping this nomination from the old post. In a nutshell running anything besides Judgment / Ice Beam / Recover / Toxic hinders its ability to check certain threats, so you can't really run Stealth Rock or Defog without being food for one of ie. Ho-oh, SD Primal Groudon, or Mega Salamence. This limits the amount of utility it can provide to a team outside of checking said threats. In contrast, Arceus-Ground, Arceus-Dark or even Arceus-Dragon have the flexibility to run 2 attacks + Recover + Defog / Stealth Rock in the last slot, because they can actually touch Primal Groudon. And because they directly attack rather than relying on Toxic stalling, they are able to keep rocks off whereas Arceus-Water cannot if the Groudon user decides to spam rocks as they die to Toxic.

Giratina-O: B+ >> back to A-

There's no way Giratina-O is on the level of something like Toxapex. Toxapex is a Pokemon that gets shit on by almost everything A and higher except for Marshadow and Arceus-Water. Most of its resistances are useless because it loses to ie. Fire-types (Primal Groudon), Water-types (Kyogre), and Fairy-types (Thunder Xerneas/Earth Power Arceus-Fairy) and you have to find other fire/water/fairy resists that can make up for that and not stack weaknesses, so it can be very hard to build around. Giratina-O does not have this problem at all, just pair it with Magearna and bam perfect defensive core that deals with most of the top threats in the metagame. It does not only counter the Pokemon that is seen on 70% of teams, it can also blanket check physical attackers like Dusk Mane, Zygarde-C, and Salamence if it's healthy enough. I disagree w/ the logic in the VR sheet that says this mon can't check Substitute users like Ekiller/Zygarde/Arceus-Ground, because running Dragon Pulse over Draco Meteor will allow you to consistently break subs. Also, it's not just "mildly annoying" offensively, because it can use Thunder Wave to slow down switchins like Xerneas/Yveltal/Arceus formes, and 2HKO them with boosted Hex if they're neutral to the move. Even an unboosted Hex does around 40% to Primal Groudon. While Mega Salamence can fulfill the same role, it's quad-weak to HP Ice which Groudon may carry as a coverage move. tldr Giratina-O has both great offensive/defensive presence and is one of the few counters to the top Pokemon in the metagame, so it deserves A+.

Scizor-Mega: A- >> B+

I use this mon a lot, but I don't necessarily believe it's as good or consistent as something like Magearna. HP Fire is not uncommon on Xerneas, both Geomancy/Choice Scarf variants, so you are obligated to include another check on your team such as Primal Groudon if you don't want to auto-lose to such variants. Its ability to check other threats advertised in the analysis is also questionable: Ultra Necrozma can setup on it in its base forme, then does 85% min with LTBTS. Even if it has already evolved, U-turn does a mere 50% to it, and the most common scenario is Unec has already gotten to +2 before evolving. It doesn't check Ekiller very well unless it's running physdef investment or Curse, because it is 2HKO'd by +2 Earthquake and Bullet Punch is too weak to break Substitute. All Mewtwos run Fire Blast lest they're outclassed by Deoxys-A, so it doesn't check that either. It can't reliably check Zygarde even if running Curse, since it can be phazed by Dragon Tail once it starts to setup. Arceus-Fairy can neuter it with Will-O-Wisp. It's also extremely hard for it to sweep in this tier, because stuff is just way fatter and stronger compared to OU, there's plenty of stuff that has the bulk to take boosted Bullet Punch even if they're not resists and OHKO or 2HKO back.

I think Scizor is great for U-turn, access to reliable recovery, and being able to pivot into some mons with good type coverage like CM Arceus-Fairy (Ground/Fairy) / support Arceus-Ground (Ground/Ice), but IMO it's not always consistent and invites in dangerous threats like Groudon/Kyogre/Ho-oh. B+ seems more fitting.

Rasengan777 Agree that Buzzwole should be included in the VR, its a great check to a lot of Fighting/Ground type attackers and Ekiller. I think C+ is a good starting point since its not that common.

 

[TheUndeclared243]

Forgive me if I am breaking any rules with the following posts. It is my first of the type, so please let me know if I should express my thoughts elsewhere.

All of the observations in the post below are from my own games, as well as from replays I have watched from tournaments hosted here on Smogon.

Agreed on everything above, so please consider this post a second nomination for all of bigtalk's thoughts. Regarding Arceus-Water, its key water resistance that allows it to function as a Primal Kyogre pivot is not enough to detract from its severe 4MSS, which bigtalk aptly describes. I also wanted to go a step further on Mega Scizor, and nominate

Scizor-Mega: A- >> B

I've regarded this Pokemon as quite overrated ever since I started playing Ubers. Its utility can only really be reliably maximized as a Primal Groudon/Ho-Oh lure and pivot when paired with something like max speed Primal Kyogre (because max speed Primal Groudon is not uncommon, and 252 Speed neutral-natured Primal Groudon is certainly not uncommon), or maybe SD Arceus-Ground. On its own, I don't think it provides nearly as much utility as many of the Pokemon currently listed in B+. I think it has its merits, but as bigtalk said, the fact that teams built around Mega Scizor are severely crippled if Mega Scizor happens to get hit by a HP Fire from Xerneas makes it lose some of the main benefits that Steel-types offer to a team's defensive synergy while maintaining most of the drawbacks. This doesn’t even account for the opportunity cost associated with using your Mega Evolution. I think that its merits are objectively not quite enough for it to be placed alongside other Pokemon in the A-, or even B+ category.

Furthermore, I wanted to nominate

Skarmory: B+ >> Higher in B+, maybe alongside Toxapex

Skarmory is a premier physical wall in Ubers, effortlessly setting Spikes and using Whirlwind against extremely common physical threats, such as Arceus, physical Necrozma variants, Mega Salamence, non-Choice Band Marshadow locked into Close Combat, Zygarde, and others. With moves such as Spikes, Toxic, Roost, and Whirlwind, and optional other moves such as Counter, Taunt, Stealth Rock, and Defog (I think Skarmory works best as a hazard user, but I also think Defog is worth the mention) Skarmory is able to find a vital place as a physically defensive pivot and wall on many hazard-oriented Bulky Offense and Balance teams. Very often, it finds itself able to freely cripple teams with combinations of Spikes, Whirlwind, and Roost, while using Toxic where possible, to chip threatening members of opposing teams significantly while maintaining its own longevity. It synergizes effortlessly with Pokemon such as Primal Kyogre, Dragon Dance Zygarde, Arceus, and others that appreciate hazards laid and opponents chipped. I'd really nominate it for A-, but I don't think its viability eclipses that of Giratina-O, which deserves to be A- itself.

I also agree that Rotom-Wash should be ranked. I haven't explored the Pokemon fully, but I can see its use with an ability like Levitate and a fair defensive typing, resisting Water, Steel, Ice, Fire, Flying, and of course, Ground. It can work as a Ground-immune Defog user and somewhat bulky pivot, with moves such as Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, Foul Play, Pain Split, and Volt Switch.