Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

[Of Moose & Men]

Hammer arm ohkos Kartana, something drain punch can’t do.

Considering at best, Kartana is doing 56% with +2 Smart Strike ( a move that isn't super common on SD Kartana right now), that's not an enormous issue. Drain Punch not only can't miss, it would allow it to heal up on things, something it would otherwise rely on Roost and Leftovers for.

That's just in terms of vs Kartana, there may be other 'mons it misses OHKO's on I don't know of, feel free to let me know.

With that said, in terms of pros vs cons that I'm aware of, I personally would rather run Drain Punch.

 

[Kakimori]

Has anyone seen or heard of a not-terrible bulky Hydreigon? I've been experimenting with something a little slower with EVs in HP and SpDef but there are just so many fairies in the metagame...

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Hydreigon's a fairly bulky, very offensive defogging breaker of sorts. It definitely has its niche. There aren't many other Defogger's capable of coming in on a choice locked Greninja that can also threaten whatever comes in afterwards with a really strong Draco Meteor or Dark Pulse. I wouldn't run SpD Hydreigon, but I wouldn't call it "terrible" either. It's just "meh" at best.

finch edit: deleted response part to deleted post

 

[p2]

Has anyone seen or heard of a not-terrible bulky Hydreigon? I've been experimenting with something a little slower with EVs in HP and SpDef but there are just so many fairies in the metagame...

this is the closest youll ever get

Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Roost
- U-turn
- Defog

speed for landot, surprisingly useful vs a lot of things but every team in this metagame is fucking koko+hawlucha so i dont recommend using it

 

[comma]

I wouldn't run a defensive set, but I would put defog on an offensive set. I think specs, scarf and life orb hydreigon definitely have merit since hydreigon has coverage to smash balance with the coverage of dark pulse/draco/epower/fire blast and scarf is a fairly good revenge killer. It also has good utility in u turn and defog and has roost to keep itself healthy on a life orb set.

 

[aogalicia]

What’s the most up to date Hawlucha set there is?

 

[Jeffv]

What’s the most up to date Hawlucha set there is?

Hawlucha @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 148 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD / 90 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Roost/Drain Punch/Stone Edge

For the moves, you have several choices: Roost allow you to set up on the likes of Defensive Lando, Drain Punch increases Lucha's overall durability while not giving up a turn to heal up, finally, stone edge is used to bypass the two biggest Hawlucha Checks: Koko (ofter two rocks switctins) and Zapdos.

 

[comma]

Stone Edge is really only for zapdos as hjk does the same amount as stone edge with a lower miss chance. Not to mention the set listed by jeffv is missing 10 evs. On Hawlucha you should have at least 296 speed to outspeed kingdra but you can also run 303 for sand drill. Another thing is that you can pair Hawlucha with any of the tapu pokemon with their respective seeds but koko is generally the best. If you reeeeally wanted to kill koko, you could try pjab in the last slot or you could use sub for setting up on counter skarm. However, roost is the best last moveslot option overall.

 

[Finchinator]

What’s the most up to date Hawlucha set there is?

For future reference, refer questions like this to the Simple Questions Simple Answers thread in the future.

 

[13_luckynumber]

Buzzwole @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Atk / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Roost

This is the Buzzwole set i've had most success using.

The Speed EV is to outspeed 176 Spe Tyranitar and OHKO with Drain Punch and therefore letting you have a defensive check to banded TTar.

Life Orb may seem weird but its purpose is to ensure the OHKO on offensive DD Zygarde, Kartana and Mega Mawile. Without Life Orb, you risk Zygarde, Kartana setup twice on you and Mega mawile lives the Earthquake to kill with Playrough.

 

[FCKNfuego]

Does Hammer Arm get any relevant KOs that would justify it's use over Drain Punch? Because if not, I think Buzzwole would definitely appreciate the extra HP recovery over losing it's Speed.

Either works. I've used both to decent success. Buzzwole isn't really sweeping shit with it's piss poor speed anyway and normally gets forced out after it's done it's job, so I went with Hammer Arm for the power but Drain Punch works just fine if you want more longevity.

i agree drain punch is a more reliable stab and recovery is nice. you also have no loss of speed. i get that this set checks alot but there are more sure-fire answers to the pokemon you listed. buzzwole's typing doesnt do it any good because while it has resistances to ground attacks and other attacks, its poor spd def and weakness to common types like flying psychic fairy limit this sets ability to be more effective than say a traditional zygarde answer like bulu who is easier to fit into a team.

Of course there are more surefire answers in multiple mons. That doesn't change the fact that Buzzwole can role compress a check for all of them.

Also it's typing is fine for what it does. It's neutral against a lot of types. Flying, Fairy and Psychic attacks aren't all that common to begin with and it's not like Buzzwole would be staying in vs any of the mons that commonly carry those attacks.

Given all the things it checks and it's imo solid typing I don't find Buzz hard to fit on teams.

Also for what it's worth Zygarde can just run Iron Tail/Steelium Z and not give af about Bulu.

 

[comma]

introduction ting

I've officially decided, as the supreme emperor of ou, that amoonguss is the new wave. While it's bulk is inferior and can get 2hkoed by specs greninja and koko after rocks, it can pivot out and gain it's health back with regenerator and leftovers. It also has decent coverage with grass/poison/fire and can put a pokemon to bed almost every game. However, it was slightly nerfed this generation since when electric terrain is up, pokemon can't fall asleep. I personally prefer physedf since it can eat a +2 z night slash from kartana (and kill with hp fire), a +2 rockium from bulu and a +2 knock off from mawile (and spore back) but spdef better takes on magearna, greninja and tapu koko. But the best part of amoonguss is it provides a much better alternative to the highly inferior mega venusaur.

moveset

Amoonguss @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Clear Smog
- Giga Drain

Amoonguss has a few other options up it's sleeve.
-Sludge bomb which does more damage to mons like AV Bulu and Koko than clear smog and nabs some pretty important KOs.
-Foul Play to punish physical attackers like sd lando which think they can set up on you once another mon is sleeped. also 2hkoes big hoopa and blacephalon
-Stun Spore to paralyze fast things while also not being affected by sleep clause and electric terrain like spore.
-Leftovers/Black Sludge which is better imo since we all about that passive recovery
-Hp Ice to hit lando and zyg
-Eject Button for some weird gimmicks
-Synthesis if you feel regen isn't enough recovery
-Protect is a bad option imo
-Toxic is a bad option imo
-Assault vest is a horrible option

los calculaciones

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 359-423 (83.1 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+2 252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 264-312 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 220-259 (50.9 - 59.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 352-415 (81.4 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (night slash)
+2 252 Atk Kartana Black Hole Eclipse (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 302-356 (69.9 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (knock off)

+2 252 Atk Tapu Bulu Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 353-416 (81.7 - 96.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 260-306 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 194-229 (44.9 - 53%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 160-189 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 181-214 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 243-286 (56.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 156-184 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 160-189 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 93-110 (21.5 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 199-235 (46 - 54.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 265-313 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 236-278 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 157-186 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 126-150 (29.1 - 34.7%) -- 8.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 190-224 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

these are of a physdef spread but obv spdef takes on gear, ninja, koko better and is more shaky against kart, lop, lando, bulu. Also I didn't do the calcs of amoongus's damage in return but I'm too lazy to do that lol.

beautiful art of the amoonguss pokemon

^appreciate my art of the amoonguss pokemon with his friends this took like 30 minutes to draw in paint

like this post and subscribe to my smogon account

 

[Altervisi]

Either works. I've used both to decent success. Buzzwole isn't really sweeping shit with it's piss poor speed anyway and normally gets forced out after it's done it's job, so I went with Hammer Arm for the power but Drain Punch works just fine if you want more longevity.



Of course there are more surefire answers in multiple mons. That doesn't change the fact that Buzzwole can role compress a check for all of them.

Also it's typing is fine for what it does. It's neutral against a lot of types. Flying, Fairy and Psychic attacks aren't all that common to begin with and it's not like Buzzwole would be staying in vs any of the mons that commonly carry those attacks.

Given all the things it checks and it's imo solid typing I don't find Buzz hard to fit on teams.

Also for what it's worth Zygarde can just run Iron Tail/Steelium Z and not give af about Bulu.

Its typing is eh, not good, not terrible, but it's pitiful SpDef and lackluster Speed means that any neutral SpAtk is all thats needed to really deal with this thing anyway, so the merit of it's typing defensively isn't that great of a point in my opinion. Forcing a switch on a Physical attacking mon and subbing is really the only way to play with this thing. Bug type STAB isn't really all that great especially compared to the other valid fighting types like Keldeo, Hawlucha, and Lopunny which have much better complimentary STAB's. Speaking of Hawlucha this thing I can only see going up in usage and as a late game cleaner with flying STAB Buzzwole is immediately dead weight, seeing as you don't need an Unburden boost to kill.

Zygarde is a nice idea for a bulu lure actually.

 

[comma]

seeing as you don't need an Unburden boost to kill.

252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 232-280 (65.1 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Are you sure about that?

Edit: ye you need to get the seed activated to kill buzzwole and super fat buzzwole spreads can eat it at 110 bp. Also no buzzwole is staying in on Hawlucha and it'll be paired with other defensive mons to form a fat core. something like zapdos or skarmory will most likely be paired with defensive buzz but nevertheless buzz is bad. defensive buzz has been on like 1 bad stall team.

subpunch is p heat and can mess up stalls with the right coverage. but it only gets 2 coverage moves since sub and focus punch are already used. it needs like ice punch for lando, pjab for clef, eq for pex, leech life for sableye, stone edge for birds.

 

[Avira]

252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 232-280 (65.1 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Are you sure about that?

He's right. Unburden isn't an ability that boosts Attack. It boosts Speed. Acrobatics with 110 BP ohkoes Buzzwole.

 

[Gary]

This threas is for discussion about the metagame, and the future of the metagame seems to be a part of the meta. So, what would happen if an ability that used the move trick room, regardless if TR is already up, was introduced?
I personally think that only the fastest Pokemon would be affected, and that Toxapex and Stakattack would rise in usage. Most likely, a TR team wouldn't be that much harder to deal with, unless you like going very fast.

• NO THEORYMONING. If you haven't bothered to actually play the metagame yet, please do not bother posting in here. Uninformed posts will only lead to bad discussion, and will be deleted regardless of length
• To go off the last point, please no "what would the metagame be w/o or with x Pokemon in it", because this is not relevant to the CURRENT META. Current meta meaning, not past or future related. C U R R E N T.

You have GOT to read the OP of threads before you post my dude. You are consistently making this mistake in multiple threads all of which could easily be prevented if you just read. I bolded and increased font size of these points for a reason.

 

[power]

Wanted to post about a mechanics change that is kinda relevant to the current metagame.

Before, on PS, Haze was not affected by Pressure. This means stuff like Vincune was easily stalled out by Haze Pex.

However, the correct behavior is for Pressure to indeed deplete an extra PP from Haze. This means that Toxapex, the most common counter to Vincune in the tier, no longer counters Vincune as Vincune can actually beat it 1v1.

PS Devs recently reimplemented this behavior.

Enjoy the new Vincune resurgence.

 

[Albacore]

Wanted to post about a mechanics change that is kinda relevant to the current metagame.

Before, on PS, Haze was not affected by Pressure. This means stuff like Vincune was easily stalled out by Haze Pex.

However, the correct behavior is for Pressure to indeed deplete an extra PP from Haze. This means that Toxapex, the most common counter to Vincune in the tier, no longer counters Vincune as Vincune can actually beat it 1v1.

PS Devs recently reimplemented this behavior.

Enjoy the new Vincune resurgence.

nah you just need to adapt

you're welcome

 

[trainer012]

So I just finished the game, and I am looking to get into the scene here, so what is the metagame? What pokemon are the must haves on a competitive scene?

 

[Altervisi]

So I just finished the game, and I am looking to get into the scene here, so what is the metagame? What pokemon are the must haves on a competitive scene?

Check this thread for the most viable mons in OU:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-ou-ultra-viability-ranking-thread.3621329/

For future reference these kind of short hand questions should go here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-read-the-op-before-posting-a-thread.3587186/

If you scroll down the OU page theres plenty of resource threads to help get started team building as well as some sample teams! Enjoy playing!

 

[Bluemargay]

So I've recently discovered that Hoopa is a really good stallbreaker. You don't run to run a choice set because those have to switch out. The best set I think is

Hoopa-Unbound
Fightinium Z/Psychium Z
Timid 252 Speed 252 Special Attack
Nasty Plot
Dark Pulse
Psyshock
Focus Blast

Unaware Clefable stop fightinium sets, but other than that, stall doesn't have answers for this thing.

 

[power]

So I've recently discovered that Hoopa is a really good stallbreaker. You don't run to run a choice set because those have to switch out. The best set I think is

Hoopa-Unbound
Fightinium Z/Psychium Z
Timid 252 Speed 252 Special Attack
Nasty Plot
Dark Pulse
Psyshock
Focus Blast

Unaware Clefable stop fightinium sets, but other than that, stall doesn't have answers for this thing.

This is the first set on the analysis, by the way. You can run Psychic to break Clefable more easily, as All-Out Pummeling breaks Chansey.

 

[A]

Since the resurgence of Hoopa-U with its new Z-Move set as well as other stuff as of recent, I've been tinkering with this rly silly double trap core with Scarf Magnezone and Alolan Muk and it performs decently well with some testing.

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch

Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Atk / 148 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Slide
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off

So the premise would be that Magnezone lets you eliminate things like SD Kart, MZor and friends out of the picture while Muk-A sponges and deals with the likes of Blacephalon, Hoopa-U and Lele as they are easily fodderized, and with Rock Slide you're able to pretty much hard stop Volcarona no questions asked. The EV spread just hits a jump point with Assault Vest in SpD while dumping the rest in Attack, and Fire Punch or Blast isn't needed since you know.



Definitely far from perfect though as ground and Heatran weakness is extremely annoying, so you might wanna patch this up with say SR Lando (possibly yache since Koko isn't smth you wanna deal with either), but the concept is definitely cool and there's probably a variety of Pokemon to abuse this with (M-Latios comes to mind as it works rly well with this, Muk-A pretty much acts as an extension to the duo that patches up some defensive issues). Muk-A can be a bit of a momentum sink but its bulk and typing just lends you a safety net vs a combination of mons known to be difficult to defensively answer especially in one slot.

 

[Bluemargay]

The problem with Scarf Magnezone is that it really struggles beating protect seed Ferrothorn and won't do anything if the opponent is using rain.. Sure trapping offensive heatran can be nice, but I don't think it's worth it. Sub is probably the best set since it allows it to actually beat Ferrothorn even in rain.

 

[Leo]

The problem with Scarf Magnezone is that it really struggles beating protect seed Ferrothorn and won't do anything if the opponent is using rain.. Sure trapping offensive heatran can be nice, but I don't think it's worth it. Sub is probably the best set since it allows it to actually beat Ferrothorn even in rain.

First of all, Magnezone doesn't struggle beating Ferro whatsoever lol HP Fire does too much for Ferro to Protect stall unless you go hard Mag into a Leech, in which case you still beat it just take a lot of damage. And it's not even meant to trap Heatran as you imply lol it's a great Pinsir and Kartana check, 2 big threats to balance teams which Scarf Magnezone can patch. It's definitely a viable set and has as much merits as its zmove sets