Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[KrazyKoopa95]

I know this sounds weird, but I nominate Blacephalon to move from B+ to A-. I set ainhave been using is:

2movez (Blacephalon) @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 HP / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower

With this set, the main goal is to increase your SpAtk with CM and increase your speed with Beast Boost, turning Blace into a sweeper.

I found this set to be very useful, although My score in OU is 1655. The idea is to set up a Sub against a mon that fears Blace, such as Celesteela, Ferrothorn, maybe Magnezone and others as well; or set a sub when predicting your opponent to sack off something. While behind a sub, you can set up a CM or 2 depending on the situation you are in and then hit incredibly hard with shadow or flamethrower/fire blast. Every time you nab a kill, you increase your speed, having after the kill +1 speed and +1 SpDef and +1 SpAtk or more. With ghostium Z, you can nuke a pokemon you cant OHKO with shadow ball or flamethrower, such as Heatran, depending on the set, Zapdos, and more. Ghost and fire are 2 very good offensive typing, with only TTar stopping you from spamming any of the two attacking moves you have. Even Pex has some trouble dealing with it, since the damage from +1 Shadow ball and +1 Ghostium Z combined does huge amount of damage and might KO it after SR (correct me if I am wrong, I didnt calculate it, but I experienced it, doing around 90% damage). Something else I want to mention, increasing your SpDef with CM, actually helps you take some hits a lot better, such as: Earth Power from a 0EV SpAtk Heatran, scald from Pex, and such.

Overall, Blace’s 2 spammable moves, plus the boost from CM, the speed boost from its ability, being able to hide behind a sub with the right predictions and having Ghostium Z to nuke a pokemon, I think Blacephalon is really good and needs a rise.

 

[Colonel M]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this nomination. The offensive rocks set is a fantastic teammate for sweepers like SD Kartana and Hawlucha that despise Zapdos. MegaTar's ability to set rocks versus some of the most commonly used reliable Defoggers in the tier (Zapdos, Gliscor, Mantine, etc.) is invaluable for the teams that it's on and its offensive presence is still very daunting, with max attack adamant edge being ruthlessly strong and Ice Punch slamming Lando, allowing teammates to blast through the opposing team. Also, its defensive presence, allowing it to hard check a lot of the tier's potentially threatening offensive Pokemon like Blacephalon, Choiced Lele, Latios, etc. makes it more than just deadweight in terms of defensive synergy for such teams. Lately, people spamming Zapdos because of Hawlucha being broken along with utility Tran being used makes Megatar really good right now. Also, the mega latias + pex balances being used in SPL get completely torn up by this thing. If you need an example of just how brutal Megatar can be against bulkier teams, this replayis all you need to see. Obviously the opponent didn't exactly play optimally, but they had nothing to deal with Megatar and it being able to set up its own rocks on Zapdos only compounded the issue. Megatar is far from being in a place where it should drop imo.

Seems fair enough. Meta trends definitely give it a slight edge at the very least in a few areas, but wanted to see what others thought on this (especially over the shitshow on the last page). I can acknowledge that argument. Honestly I would like to rescind my argument in that case. I think the argument in the post is fairly sound all things considered, though the 4 mss definitely is a big dent against it (have seen and also run like an AoA with Pursuit though and if you got rocks elsewhere its solid).

 

[Garou]

This may seem like a slightly more controversial nom but I feel like with Trick Room being more gimmicky and less used that Stakataka, which flourishes mainly only under Trick Room, could go from B- to C+. So I will be saying why I think Stakataka should go from B- to C+.

Stakataka has basically only one viable set which is the trick room wallbreaker. Recently the meta has become far less centered around Trick Room and with that I feel like Stakataka's overall usage and viability has taken a hit as it has been unable to find a niche outside of Trick Room. While under Trick Room Stakataka is very strong and is thus a force to be reckoned with on Trick Room teams, outside of Trick Room Stakataka can not really fulfil any niche over its counterparts. Its poor defensive typing giving it 4x weaknesses to common offensive typings in Ground and Fighting in conjunction with a terrible speed tier mean its easily able to be revenge killed and can not snowball easily outside of Trick Room with its ability beast boost. It also does not really fit on any play style apart from Trick Room as it's abominable speed tier makes it a poor option on offence, and it does not offer anything to fatter builds, as there are generally better options for any niche it could fulfil, such as clefable for a physically defensive stealth rocker. Finally it is walled by some common pokemon such as Landorus-T and Mega Scizor, which hurts it viability as a wallbreaker, even under Trick Room limiting its capabilities. For these reasons I would be in favour of Stakataka dropping.

Also @ the above while mega ttar does have 4mss I do think its versatility in terms of the different sets it could run in aoa or defensive stealth rock or pursuit trapper means that it should not drop imo.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

This may seem like a slightly more controversial nom but I feel like with Trick Room being more gimmicky and less used that Stakataka, which flourishes mainly only under Trick Room, could go from B- to C+. So I will be saying why I think Stakataka should go from B- to C+.

Stakataka has basically only one viable set which is the trick room wallbreaker. Recently the meta has become far less centered around Trick Room and with that I feel like Stakataka's overall usage and viability has taken a hit as it has been unable to find a niche outside of Trick Room. While under Trick Room Stakataka is very strong and is thus a force to be reckoned with on Trick Room teams, outside of Trick Room Stakataka can not really fulfil any niche over its counterparts. Its poor defensive typing giving it 4x weaknesses to common offensive typings in Ground and Fighting in conjunction with a terrible speed tier mean its easily able to be revenge killed and can not snowball easily outside of Trick Room with its ability beast boost. It also does not really fit on any play style apart from Trick Room as it's abominable speed tier makes it a poor option on offence, and it does not offer anything to fatter builds, as there are generally better options for any niche it could fulfil, such as clefable for a physically defensive stealth rocker. Finally it is walled by some common pokemon such as Landorus-T and Mega Scizor, which hurts it viability as a wallbreaker, even under Trick Room limiting its capabilities. For these reasons I would be in favour of Stakataka dropping.

Also @ the above while mega ttar does have 4mss I do think its versatility in terms of the different sets it could run in aoa or defensive stealth rock or pursuit trapper means that it should not drop imo.

I’m on mobile so I can’t say much but I strongly disagree with this nomination. Stakataka main niche is a OTR sweeper, it is not used as a stealth rock user. It’s defensive typing is definitely a hindirance, but Stakatakas decent bulk still gives it an ample of opportunities to set up TR. Stakataka also can 2HKO Landorus T with Gyro Ball and break through Mega Scizor with Z stone edge.
If anything I would argue that Stakataka is a better fit on bulky offense than TR; TR generally has better abusers like Crawduant. Stakataka. Stakataka does not need to be on a TR team to perform well, it has enough bulk to set up TR on its own. Think of it as a set up sweeper, not a full time TR abuser.
Stakataka should not drop as it is still a huge threat to offensive teams with its OTR sweeper set.

 

[lodescent]

Zygarde A+ -> A

I find it hard to agree with Zygarde dropping. Its choice band set still has very limited switch-ins and nicely tenderizes most balanced/BO teams for a teammate to sweep, as well as having strong priority that, for example, always revenge kills Volcarona if it has taken SR damage:

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 170-201 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Equally, the Z set deals with most of its usual counters and is a very strong nuke unboosted that can pave a way for its own sweep late game. The Sub DD set isn't so good, especially due to the prevalence of defoggers making toxic spikes harder to run, but it has its place on teams that abuse the hazard and can pressure typical defoggers.

I guess the biggest thing hurting Zygarde is the overwhelming popularity of AV Bulu. It cannot touch it outside of CB/Z-Iron tail or whittling it with toxic. That being said, Grassy terrain doesn't weaken Thousand Arrows and AV Bulu is often a a teams main, if not only, check to stuff like Ash-Gren, Koko etc, meaning it gets heavily pressured during the match. With +1 arrows doing 26-30%, it cannot repeatedly switch into banded Zygarde unless it can fish for Horn Leech recovery (although I find that clicking Nature's Madness is far safer if your opponent still has a steel type).

All in all, Zygarde is still a very solid pokemon in OU rn and, whilst it can't sweep as consistently as something like Volcarona, it has more versatility across its sets and has a much easier time getting multiple set-up opportunities in one game.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Zapdos: A- --> A
This thing has been the bane of many OU threats thanks to its amazing typing, defog+static combo, and reliable recovery. Very few things counter zapdos or OHKO it unboosted. The Electric+Fire+Ice combo helps as well.

 

[Garou]

View attachment 102101Zapdos: A- --> A
This thing has been the bane of many OU threats thanks to its amazing typing, defog+static combo, and reliable recovery. Very few things counter zapdos or OHKO it unboosted. The Electric+Fire+Ice combo helps as well.

I for sure second this, Zapdos has become more used in bigger tournaments like SPL, reflecting its increase in viability, and with multiple viable sets such as 3 attacks+roost, agility, and defogger, it can be unpredictable. Its ability pressure is also good for (pardon the pun) pressuring stall and I think zapdos is better now than it has ever been before so I wholeheartedly agree with this nomination.

 

[Felixx]

I know this sounds weird, but I nominate Blacephalon to move from B+ to A-. I set ainhave been using is:

2movez (Blacephalon) @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 HP / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower

With this set, the main goal is to increase your SpAtk with CM and increase your speed with Beast Boost, turning Blace into a sweeper.

I found this set to be very useful, although My score in OU is 1655. The idea is to set up a Sub against a mon that fears Blace, such as Celesteela, Ferrothorn, maybe Magnezone and others as well; or set a sub when predicting your opponent to sack off something. While behind a sub, you can set up a CM or 2 depending on the situation you are in and then hit incredibly hard with shadow or flamethrower/fire blast. Every time you nab a kill, you increase your speed, having after the kill +1 speed and +1 SpDef and +1 SpAtk or more. With ghostium Z, you can nuke a pokemon you cant OHKO with shadow ball or flamethrower, such as Heatran, depending on the set, Zapdos, and more. Ghost and fire are 2 very good offensive typing, with only TTar stopping you from spamming any of the two attacking moves you have. Even Pex has some trouble dealing with it, since the damage from +1 Shadow ball and +1 Ghostium Z combined does huge amount of damage and might KO it after SR (correct me if I am wrong, I didnt calculate it, but I experienced it, doing around 90% damage). Something else I want to mention, increasing your SpDef with CM, actually helps you take some hits a lot better, such as: Earth Power from a 0EV SpAtk Heatran, scald from Pex, and such.

Overall, Blace’s 2 spammable moves, plus the boost from CM, the speed boost from its ability, being able to hide behind a sub with the right predictions and having Ghostium Z to nuke a pokemon, I think Blacephalon is really good and needs a rise.

You're not actually stating what has changed in the meta for Blace to be given a rise, your just telling us about a set we already know about, oh and here's the calc for your speed boosting set:

+1 20 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 211-249 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

See the main problem with this SubCM "sweeper" Blace set is that...

*Blace is vulnerable to common priority moves like QA, Shuriken and Sucker from M-Pinsir, Gren, Mawile, thus stopping a sweep. Hell, BP from M-Sciz does a lot for a resist.

*Common scarfers deal with it well. Scarf Kart frequently runs Knock and still has high usage despite Hawlucha and Zapdos being used more, and scarf Latios is still a good pick for role compression, tho the CM boost means you need some chip to pick it off with Psyshock. Scarf Keld has been getting use in Gen 7 OU SPL.

*Opportunities to actually set-up don't appear that often. AV Mag can eat a hit and volt out to a faster teammate (not that hard since Blace is only 107 speed and not scarfed). Clef and Ferro's Knock both do a lot, Chansey is subbed up on I'll give you that, Zapdos has Discharge, Mew and Tran have Earth Power, AV Bulu does minimum of 76.1% to 236 HP Blace with Wood Hammer, etc. The idea is Blace usually can't set up unscaved because of frailty, so it gets put in range of Psyshock from Latios and Leaf Blade from Kart for variants without Knock.

In all honestly Specs is much better as a breaker, and SubCM's niche is that it can beat stall and some balance builds with Venu as set-up fodder, but other mons like Ttar, Hoopa-U, Specs Ash-Gren with spikes, Utility and Z-move Tran, etc, can break down teams just as, if not more easily as Blace while also providing some defensive utility, with Blace provides zero.

 

[Meliodafu7]

View attachment 102101Zapdos: A- --> A
This thing has been the bane of many OU threats thanks to its amazing typing, defog+static combo, and reliable recovery. Very few things counter zapdos or OHKO it unboosted. The Electric+Fire+Ice combo helps as well.

I agree with this, Zapdos is in a great spot right now, serving as a reliable answer to massive threats in the form of Kartana, M-Pinsir and Hawlucha. Static coupled with Roost and Defog make it a powerful tool to balance teams, also it can check somewhat reliable AV Bulu, because it risk the Static para and the heat wave burn, while being outspeed.

 

[wheitron]

View attachment 102101Zapdos: A- --> A
This thing has been the bane of many OU threats thanks to its amazing typing, defog+static combo, and reliable recovery. Very few things counter zapdos or OHKO it unboosted. The Electric+Fire+Ice combo helps as well.

I agree with the nom, zapdos is a potent stop to many top tier treats atm and has seen usage in SPL, def shud rise, altho not for static+defog, and ye for pressure, this ability, coupled with zapdos majestic bulk, typing and defog, allows zapdos to pp stall mons dat wud normally beat it, such as clef, ferro and many others, keeping rocks off while getting the opponent to rly struggle against it ( lol).

Def agree with zapdos to A tho

 

[Altervisi]

View attachment 102101Zapdos: A- --> A
This thing has been the bane of many OU threats thanks to its amazing typing, defog+static combo, and reliable recovery. Very few things counter zapdos or OHKO it unboosted. The Electric+Fire+Ice combo helps as well.

Yeah, very much agree

Zapdos A- -> A, great abilities that are more useful than ever, so many fast but frail mons that are almost useless once paralysed: Kartana, Lucha, Medicham, Lopunny, Pinsir etc. Fast, hard hitting HP Ice and Heat Wave hits an incredible amount of common threats 4x effectively, with is really useful off a decent Speed and SpAtk threat for a more defensively orientated mon. Roost recovery meaning it isn't heavily Leftovers reliant against Knock Off users (possibly punishing with Static); along side resisting popular attacking types right now in Flying, Grass, Ground, Bug and Steel. Defog with Spikes immunity is also more useful than ever and handily beating setters like Landorus, Ferrothorn, Excadrill and Toxapex (using Spikes over Toxic).

 

[KrazyKoopa95]

You're not actually stating what has changed in the meta for Blace to be given a rise, your just telling us about a set we already know about, oh and here's the calc for your speed boosting set:

+1 20 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 211-249 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

See the main problem with this SubCM "sweeper" Blace set is that...

*Blace is vulnerable to common priority moves like QA, Shuriken and Sucker from M-Pinsir, Gren, Mawile, thus stopping a sweep. Hell, BP from M-Sciz does a lot for a resist.

*Common scarfers deal with it well. Scarf Kart frequently runs Knock and still has high usage despite Hawlucha and Zapdos being used more, and scarf Latios is still a good pick for role compression, tho the CM boost means you need some chip to pick it off with Psyshock. Scarf Keld has been getting use in Gen 7 OU SPL.

*Opportunities to actually set-up don't appear that often. AV Mag can eat a hit and volt out to a faster teammate (not that hard since Blace is only 107 speed and not scarfed). Clef and Ferro's Knock both do a lot, Chansey is subbed up on I'll give you that, Zapdos has Discharge, Mew and Tran have Earth Power, AV Bulu does minimum of 76.1% to 236 HP Blace with Wood Hammer, etc. The idea is Blace usually can't set up unscaved because of frailty, so it gets put in range of Psyshock from Latios and Leaf Blade from Kart for variants without Knock.

In all honestly Specs is much better as a breaker, and SubCM's niche is that it can beat stall and some balance builds with Venu as set-up fodder, but other mons like Ttar, Hoopa-U, Specs Ash-Gren with spikes, Utility and Z-move Tran, etc, can break down teams just as, if not more easily as Blace while also providing some defensive utility, with Blace provides zero.

Sorry, never knew people actually used this set. I never saw it, so I thought that this set was unknown. I thought the reason why Blace was B+ was because of choiced items were not that good on him. I just thought this “what I assumed new” set could have risen Blace a rise to A- just because how it differs from the choice sets.

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

View attachment 102101Zapdos: A- --> A
This thing has been the bane of many OU threats thanks to its amazing typing, defog+static combo, and reliable recovery. Very few things counter zapdos or OHKO it unboosted. The Electric+Fire+Ice combo helps as well.

I for sure second this, Zapdos has become more used in bigger tournaments like SPL, reflecting its increase in viability, and with multiple viable sets such as 3 attacks+roost, agility, and defogger, it can be unpredictable. Its ability pressure is also good for (pardon the pun) pressuring stall and I think zapdos is better now than it has ever been before so I wholeheartedly agree with this nomination.

I have to agree with this nomination. Zapdos is a really good check to lots of popular pokemon in the meta, like Celesteela, Mega Scizor, Landorous-T ( HPI ). Zapdos is a solid defogger who can brush stealth rocks with roost, ( although Zapdos will be bait for Excadrill after that ) and remove the stealth rocks. I have been seeing it used more and more for a solid check to mons like Celesteela, and I have to say it is really deserving for A tier. It should be a tier above not as good mons like Mega Tyranitar and regular Greninja who do not see as much usage.
I agree with Zapdos going from A- to A.

 

[lodescent]

View attachment 102101Zapdos: A- --> A
This thing has been the bane of many OU threats thanks to its amazing typing, defog+static combo, and reliable recovery. Very few things counter zapdos or OHKO it unboosted. The Electric+Fire+Ice combo helps as well.

Yeah, also very much agree with Zap to A. Such a splashable mon atm and spreading paralysis everywhere whilst it walls scary stuff like kart and lucha means its not passive at all like other checks to those mons.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Tapu Fini: B- --> B
Tapu Fini has all the tools it needs to be a good defensive counter to a lot of mons in OU (except for recovery). It checks or counters many big threats like ash gren, keldeo, latios, hawlucha (it takes +2 acrobatics) and mega gyra. It can even beat defensive mons like chansey, tran, clef thanks to taunt+natures madness and status immunity. It has more of a purpose for use now than in SM.

 

[Finchinator]

new slate being voted on, locking thread until it's done. do not bother me about it in the mean time!

 

[Finchinator]

update will be posted in 12-24 hours from now and thread will be unlocked come then! stay tuned

 

[Finchinator]

RANKINGS UPDATE

Hide

user Moony drops from C- to the rank of public humiliation

Rises

• 
  B --> B+
• 
  B- --> B
• 
  C+ --> B-
• 
  C+ --> B-

Drops

• 
  A- --> B+
• 
  B+ --> B
• 
  B --> B-
• 
  C- --> shadow realm

full voting slate

Tapu Koko from A+ to S- - A+ S- A+ A+ A+ -> stays A+
Hawlucha from A to A+ - A A+ A A A -> stays A
Zapdos from A- to A - A- A A- A- A -> stays A-
Tornadus-Therian from B to B+ - B+ B+ B+ B+ B+ -> rises to B+
Mamoswine from B- to B - B B B- B B -> rises to B
Volcanion from C+ to B- - B- B- B- B- B- -> rises to B-
Amoonguss from C+ to B- - B- B- B- B- B- -> rises to B-

Zygarde from A+ to A - A+ A A+ A+ A+ -> stays A+
Clefable from A to A- - A- A A A A -> stays A
Celesteela from A to A- - A A- A A A -> stays A
Tyranitar Mega from A- to B+ - B+ B+ B+ B+ (1 abstain) -> drops to B+
Blacephalon from B+ to B - B B B B B -> drops to B
Bisharp from B to B- - B- B- B- B- B- -> drops to B-
Gengar from B to B- - B B- B B B -> stays B
Lycanroc-Dick from C- to UR - UR UR C- C- UR -> drops to UR

Reasoning for changes:

• Tornadus-Therian rising should be no surprise. The Z-Hurricane Defog set has enabled Tornadus-Therian to find its place in OU once again. It has skyrocketed in usage over the past month and is easily one of the best anti-SR Landorus-Therian measures, which is very relevant seeing how common it is as a Stealth Rock setter. In addition, strong offensive presence and surprising longevity thanks to movepool/investment and Regenerator respectively solidified Tornadus-Therian as the real deal in the current metagame.
• Mamoswine is a bit less clear-cut of a case than Tornadus-Therian, but it probably should have never dropped into the depths of B- to begin with. It has seen a decent amount of usage and newer, generally seen as niche, sets such as Metrenome have made a decently enough sized splash in the metagame to warrant a small rise for the earth-shaking pig that poses a major threat to a majority of teams in the current metagame.
• Volcanion, also known as the steamy one, has seen some more usage lately and for good reason -- the Substitute variant is incredibly annoying to deal with, especially due to the fact that Steam Eruption + Fire coverage work so well together. Ultimately, weakness to Stealth Rock and a lower Speed tier make it so that Volcanion will never be a top tier threat, but it has at least established itself as an intriguing option to integrate into teams as of late.
• Amoonguss is by no means a great Pokemon in the tier right now, but it has a lot of utility, especially with the rise of the Assault Vest variant with Stomping Tantrum. While forum posters such as sedertz tend to overrate the presence of the mushroom, it is still easily better than a C+ Pokemon solely given the fact that it has Regenerator, the ability to check numerous top tier threats, and practical utility on numerous fronts.
• Mega Tyranitar has not really been used very often and the phase of the DD variants being "cool" has unfortunately passed, leaving this underappreciated mega evolution as a viable option, but far from one that is commonly resorted to or easy to fit onto teams. Given its falling out of favor, Mega Tyranitar dropped a subrank to B+.
• Blacephalon is garbage and you should not use it. Gladly awaiting the shitstorm of PMs I get for not elaborating sufficiently on this one, but that sums it up well enough!
• Bisharp has never really caught on during SM aside from the period where webs stood out as an actually common archetype of cheese and seeing as that is not the case, only madmen like p2 have the balls to bring Wish Killer to relevant games, and it just does not serve much purpose that holds a strong appeal otherwise, Bisharp is dropping to B-!
• Lycanroc-Dusk never really had much of a place in the tier. it is too frail and there are simply better, more consistent offensive options and while it may have a very minor, specific niche that makes it stand out from other options, there really is no reason to use it on a serious team and nobody has done so consistently, let alone effectively, so it has no place being ranked at the moment!

I'm lifting the blacklist on the S- Pokemon and letting the discussion points be whatever you guys want them to be, but be warned: if the thread goes to shit, I will not hesitate to lock it and just handle matters internally and then post here. Posters should be on their best behavior. Have fun!

 

[MANNAT]

Real talk I'm kinda pissed that ttar went down on the basis of its DD set not being as fun anymore when its best set is the offensive SR setter one, but I'll take what I can get. I'm just going to make a couple noms on things that I think should change ranks. I hope you guys enjoy the post!

Gengar to B+ Rank
When people realized that Blacephalon is a sack of flaming garbage that flops whenever it sees a Tyranitar at team preview, Z-Hex Gengar started to emerge as a threatening set that can put a dent in many of the balanced and bulky offense teams we find today. Gengar does struggle mightily against AV Magearna, but so do a lot of breakers that are higher ranked than it. Wisp + Hex is really good against balanced teams because Heatran doesn't wanna take a FBlast to the face and burning everything leads the opposing team to get worn down way quicker, especially paired with entry hazard support. Also, Z-Hex is a fantastic nuke that can blow something away at a point in the game where you need to stay up on sacks later in the game to maintain momentum or to severely damage/take out something for a teammate. Once status has been spread to the opposing team, Gengar can spam Hex pretty freely because this tier has pretty awful Ghost resists and Tyranitar basically never runs scarf or chople, so Gengar can rip through many bulky offense and balance teams that people use nowadays. This thing definitely has its flaws as a breaker, but its ability to tear apart modern era balance and bulky offense teams if played correctly makes it more than deserving of B+ rank imo.

Mega Venusaur to B rank
Looking at the current B+ rank, Mega Venusuar just seems out of place. The recent rise of AV Amoonguss and AV Bulu being as good as it is really hurts Mega Venusaur because it has so much competition that frankly do its job better than it without requiring use of a mega stone. Amoonguss is two subranks below Mega Venusaur, yet it doesn't rely on shitass Synthesis for recovery and isn't half as pressured as Mega Venusaur is against threats that both of them are supposed to check like Ash Greninja and Tapu Koko because Amoong can just regen off repeated attacks whereas Venu has to use up its scarce as fuck healing PP and usually ends up losing in the long run to half the stuff it's supposed to beat. Obviously Mega Venu has a greater offensive presence than Amoong and doesn't have as low a speed tier, but that's not enough of a difference to mandate a two subrank difference between the mons. Also, Tyranitar being reasonably common on balanced and offensive teams alike sucks ass because it cuts off Venu's recovery along with those teams tending to put a lot of offensive pressure on Mega Venusaur. I frankly think that this thing should be ranked at B-, but I'll start with B because I don't want to overreach.

Keldeo to B Rank
Keldeo is just...bad. Scarf sets are god awful vs any team with Toxapex because it can't even catch it with tech and Stone Edge only comes in handy the one out of 20 games that you miraculously run into Volcarona. Not to mention that it can't even switch into Volcarona spamming attacks reliably and ends up being ineffective as a check to it in the long run as is. The CM + Waterium Z set is a bit better because it's solid vs Ferropex balance, but it hates the absurd usage of AV Bulu right now and struggles vs VoltTurn offense because it's highly reliant on prediction to set up or frankly do anything of note along with being incredibly pressured by the offensive momentum that those teams can tend to maintain. Obviously Keldeo isn't unviable by any means, but it just isn't on the same level as most of B+ and would be much more suited for a rank with mons like Mamoswine and Garchomp.

 

[patlop2307]

Blacephalon is garbage and you should not use it. Gladly awaiting the shitstorm of PMs I get for not elaborating sufficiently on this one, but that sums it up well enough!

Such harsh opinons smh... Yes, there is a reason it dropped in viability, the main reason being Tyranitar. But there is a set that, if u allow, I would like to share:

Blacephalon Set

Blacephalon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Trick

I do not know, if you were ever aware of the set but in my opinion, this set is great. It mainly acts as a Tyranitar lure but can also trick Pokémon on stall and burn physical attackers that would otherwise pose a (huge) threat to the team. It also is a great late-game-cleaner against Hyper-Offenses, but that is needless to say.

In a nutshell: A drop in usage is a drop in usage, saying it straight up bad, though, is a bit too harsh.

 

[JizzleFire9]

So I definitely agree with gengar and z willhex is a good combo. Such an underrated ghost mon.
As for venasaur the rise in av bulu and av amounguss has really made this mon drop of a B ranking it’s just as viable as amounguss or even about bulu.
Keldeo hasn’t been relevant since Gen 6 OU yes it has dropped off significantly The scarf set can only do so much but it’s just that theirs other mons that can outsped it and doesn’t do well again pex and ferro teams.
Obviously I hear a lot of people say that blace is garbage and I understand from a standpoint. There are a few good sets like choice scarf and CM sub but I understand why people think this mon is aweful and it’s very frail but if you use it correctly it can sweep.

Mamo to B is great but i think it should a B+. Mamo has enough to take hits with focus sash and thick fat helps too. Although it gets beaten by fast water mons like keldeo and ash gren. Also mamo can beat Lando T that’s right the mon that rules the tier so I think mamo should have more respect for not only taking down a mon that is S Rank but also being a great ultilty mon.
Zard X has significantly dropped off and can be easily be swept by a rock types and definitely does not like ttar at all.

 

[Scuba Diver]

The other obvious reason beyond Pex and Ttar making Blacephalon trash is the fact that Specs Water Shuriken is everywhere. Knock Off on Kartana is also hugely relevant in terms of being revenged. I find Victini (probably the closest direct competition to Blace) to be a much more unpredictable and effective fire type breaker, the Z celebrate set can clean up well and Band/Scarf is also somewhat viable.

 

[Scuba Diver]

The point you made about Blacephalon being bad is meh too. No shit it dies to Water-Shuriken, but God has given you two dear hands to click the "Switch-Button" and a brain to know what Pokémon you are going to switch into.

There’s more going on than pure 1v1s. Greninja can spike up, Ttar can set up rocks or DD before pursuit (most people just stay in fishing for a burn), Pex can scald burn, knock off or Tspike your switch. Blacephalon is a huge momentum drain and I don’t think it brings very much to the table in this meta.

 

[Finchinator]

Let’s remember forum rules like being respectful of other users and not making double posts, by the way. Already had to delete like a half dozen posts in an hour or two - don’t want to have to close the thread ;_;

 

[patlop2307]

There’s more going on than pure 1v1s. Greninja can spike up, Ttar can set up rocks or DD before pursuit (most people just stay in fishing for a burn), Pex can scald burn, knock off or Tspike your switch. Blacephalon is a huge momentum drain and I don’t think it brings very much to the table in this meta.

• Greninja spikes up, but thats fine, since the hazards are getting removed at one point or another regardless.
• DD pursuit isnt a set and theres still the possibility of burning the Tyranitar with Will-o-Wisp, as stated in my initial post.
• Toxapex is usually gonna be met with an adequate switch-in. Furthermore, Knock Off is a rarity on Toxapex, which is why I dont think it was worth mentioning.

I dont think its a huge momentum drainer either... as i said, the wisp trick set provides the momentum it would otherwise lack. Its one of the few Pokémon that can make a huge threat, literally turn into set-up bait.

Seriously, pair that Blacephalon set with a set-up Pokémon such as Reuniclus or Clefable f.e. .
If you dont, then its fine, but then stop saying that Blacephalon is bad and just a huge momentum drainer, because its not.