Venomoth (Analysis)

Chou Toshio

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Venomoth

[Overview]

<p>Venomoth has never been a top threat, traditionally being labeled "not as bad as those other bad Bug-types." Outshining Pokemon like Butterfree, Beautifly, and Dustox could hardly be called a talent, and Venomoth's decidedly mediocre stats and typing left it as a forgettable Pokemon despite its impressive movepool and abilities.</p>

<p>BW gave Venomoth a new lease on life in the competitive Pokemon scene, granting it an incredible boosting move in Quiver Dance, an attack that boosts the user's Speed, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one stage each.
Only a handful of Pokemon learn Quiver Dance, and of them, Venomoth is the only one to also learn Baton Pass (except for Masquerain, yet another awful Bug-type it outclasses). With Quiver Dance added to its bag of tricks, Venomoth has become a terrifying Baton Pass user, also boasting Sleep Powder to nab it turns to boost and fantastic coverage with just one STAB attack thanks to its Tinted Lens ability. Essentially, Venomoth can disable foes, set up on disabled foes, and pass or sweep all in one moveset, suffering little to no four moveslot syndrome. Venomoth possesses very unique qualities as an offensive Baton Pass user, and with the host of powerful special sweepers (potential pass targets) in BW's UU metagame, you can be sure that Venomoth will remain a threat one must be wary of.</p>

[SET]
name: Baton Pass
move 1: Sleep Powder
move 2: Quiver Dance
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Bug Buzz / Roost
item: Leftovers
ability: Tinted Lens
nature: Timid
evs.: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Venomoth accomplishes a lot
with just four moves. Sleep Powder lets it set up with terrific reliability on the many UU Pokemon that it outspeeds. Not only will it disable a foe (possibly for the whole game), but it also nabs a free turn to set up as the opponent sleeps or switches. Quiver Dance is an incredible boosting move that makes the user a lot more powerful and a lot harder to bring down. The boost to Speed also makes Venomoth's Baton Pass very reliable. The defensive EVs, in tandem with the Special Defense boost, also give Venomoth a very good chance of setting up multiple Quiver Dances against foes that rely on special attacks.</p>

<p>Venomoth is a lethal threat with just those
three moves, but thanks to the coverage from Tinted Lens, it becomes a double threat by being able to go on the offensive with just one attack! There are no Pokemon immune to Bug-type attacks, and with Tinted Lens, even finding a Pokemon that resists Venomoth's one attack is difficult. Furthermore, Venomoth can potentially forgo attacking completely and abuse the Speed and Special Defense boosts further with Roost, letting it heal up and gather even more boosts. Generally speaking, Bug Buzz is superior, as it makes Venomoth a much more versatile threat by giving Venomoth the ability to sweep or pass. Roost is best used if your pass target is a bulkier Pokemon that needs more boosts to be a real threat, but will sweep with more security once set up (for instance, using Nidoqueen instead of Nidoking as a pass target). Thanks to the free turns from Sleep Powder and the Speed boosts from Quiver Dance, Venomoth has very little to fear from Taunt users, as Prankster users are very rare in UU.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With different EV spreads, this set can play very different but effective styles.
Reallocating the HP EVs to Special Attack creates a more offensive passer, increasing Venomoth's ability to sweep and abuse the boosts itself. Alternatively,by moving the Speed EVs to Defense and possibly even changing the nature to Bold, you can turn Venomoth into a very bulky passer. Bold Venomoth with full defensive investment always survives a Jolly Choice Scarf Heracross's Stone Edge, even after taking Stealth Rock damage. When using Roost, any EVs that would normally go in Special Attack should be allotted to a defensive stat, and the ability should be changed to Shield Dust to block the secondary effects of attacks such as Discharge and Scald. Finally, Substitute is traditionally a very useful move on Calm Mind sweepers, and Venomoth can use it over Bug Buzz or Roost to block status or potentially grab extra boosts.</p>

<p>As far as teammates go, Nidoking is the most popular (and most effective) pass target, boasting tremendous offensive power and coverage. Its reasonable bulk and immunity to Thunder Wave make it even more appealing. As mentioned earlier, with a more defensive Venomoth dedicated to picking up multiple boosts, Nidoqueen might be the superior option, possessing superior bulk to both more reliably survive the pass turn and carry out a longer sweep. Though Nidoking is especially noteworthy, any of UU's top special offensive threats would love to
receive a Quiver Dance or two.</p>

<p>When looking to support Venomoth, the first thing that comes to mind is getting rid of Stealth Rock. A reliable Rapid Spin user will make Venomoth's work a lot easier, and give it more
opportunities to set up multiple times in a single game. Otherwise, like all Baton Pass users, Venomoth would greatly appreciate the benefit of dual screens set up by a Pokemon such as Uxie or Deoxys-D.</p>

[SET]
name: Sweeper
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Bug Buzz
move 3: Psychic
move 4: Sleep Powder / Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fire
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Tinted Lens
nature: Timid
evs.: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>When not abusing Baton Pass, Venomoth can dedicate itself to sweeping outright. Its Speed and Special Attack are decidedly average (for sweeper standards), but the boosts from Quiver Dance and the added coverage from Tinted Lens can quickly make it deadly. The attacking combination of Psychic / Bug gives Venomoth essentially flawless coverage. Bug is a fantastic STAB to have in UU, destroying the many Psychic- and Grass-types in the tier. In addition to its great neutral coverage, Psychic deals with Crobat, arguably Venomoth's most dreaded counter.</p>

<p>The last slot rounds out Venomoth's offensive abilities. Sleep Powder is always a great attack, and it allows Venomoth to take out a potential counter. Hidden Powers Ground and Fire are useful for hitting Steel-types. Hidden Power Ground also hits Fire-types
such as Arcanine hard without diminishing Venomoth's Speed, while Hidden Power Fire is most notable for destroying Escavalier but makes Venomoth lose to foes it would normally speed-tie with, such as Choice Scarf Porygon-Z and Choice Scarf Moltres, as it requires a 30 Speed IV.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are many other possible
alternatives for the last slot, thanks to the great coverage granted by Tinted Lens. The most notable alternative move is Baton Pass, which can replace any move not named Quiver Dance or Bug Buzz. Baton Pass gives the set a much more flexible play style, letting Venomoth "bail out" of bad situations by simply passing its accrued boosts to a teammate that can handle the situation. Alternatively, there are number of offensive moves that could be used in the last slot. Sludge Bomb is another extremely powerful secondary STAB move, and it offers decent neutral coverage when combined with Tinted Lens. The only real drawbacks to Sludge Bomb are that it cannot touch Steel-types and that it provides little in the way of super effective coverage against key threats. The fact that it hits no harder than Bug Buzz at neutral is also disappointing. Giga Drain is an interesting option for healing, but even at 75 Base Power its coverage and power are hardly impressive. Hidden Power Rock provides some great super effective hits, notably against Charizard and Moltres, but, once again, the inability to hit Steel-types is disappointing. Substitute could also be used to block status and potentially nab extra boosts, but be careful because Substitute will drain Venomoth’s HP quickly when used with Life Orb. Roost could also be used in the last slot and works well to remove Life Orb damage. However, considering Venomoth's frailty, it would probably only be useful against special attacking foes. In the end, none of these moves are likely to be more useful than Sleep Powder.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Venomoth has a few other options to try. It can act as a bulky setup sweeper, mono-attacking with Tinted Lens Bug Buzz. The set would utilize Quiver Dance, Roost, Bug Buzz, and either Sleep Powder or Substitute. It could also use a RestTalk set with Sleep Talk, Rest, Quiver Dance, and Bug Buzz.</p>

<p>Venomoth can also try its hand at a support role, setting up Toxic Spikes or disabling foes with Stun Spore. Meanwhile, it can use Roost to replenish its life
, and it can also remove Toxic Spikes, making it a great boon to tanks like bulky Water-types and Arcanine. Unfortunately, Venomoth's below average defensive stats really inhibit it in this role; generally, it would be outclassed by Roserade or Drapion.</p>

<p>Lum Berry and Mental Herb are always worth a mention on a set up Pokemon, including Baton Pass users, but Venomoth generally has little need for these moves. The free turns from Sleep Powder and the Speed boosts from Quiver Dance generally allow Venomoth to set up and pass unmolested, giving these one shot items little use. Venomoth could also try to take on an offensive role with Choice Items, but its mediocre offensive stats and weakness to Stealth Rock make them a poor routes for Venomoth to take. Essentially, Venomoth without Quiver Dance is just not a big threat in UU.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>It's very difficult to pin down a "counter" for a Baton Pass user, and even more difficult when the Baton Pass user has Sleep Powder and a decent Speed stat. Pinning down the Baton Pass user is even more difficult when that Pokemon boosts its Speed and can pass after just one boost. One option is to stop the Sleep Powder. You can use Xatu to bounce back the powder, or use Honchkrow's Insomnia to switch into Venomoth as it tries to sleep a foe. While it’s unlikely the foe will blindly Sleep Powder when he sees Xatu in your team, having Xatu will at least force him to be more careful in setting up Venomoth. Just be aware that should you switch Xatu into Venomoth as it predicts the switch and Quiver Dances, it can Quiver Dance again without any fear of being OHKOed by your Xatu
and then pass multiple boosts. As such, Honchkrow makes for a much more immediate threat.</p>

<p>A more common way of dealing with Venomoth is switching in a Choice Scarf user as Venomoth Quiver Dances. There are a number of UU Pokemon that enjoy carrying Choice Scarf
and can both outspeed Venomoth and OHKO it. Good examples include Victini, Azelf, and Arcanine, though they will likely need to use physical attacks to ensure clean OHKOs. Psychic-types cannot switch into Venomoth recklessly, lest they get predicted and are met with a lethal Bug Buzz.</p>

<p>Perhaps the most reliable method to get rid of Venomoth is simply to phaze it, and this is a good option when all else fails. The best phazer to counter Venomoth is Crobat, which possesses a 4x resistance to Bug-type attacks and can OHKO Venomoth with Brave Bird. Moltres can also do this, but
it needs Rapid Spin support.</p>

<p>While it’s not the recommended method, you could always aim to beat the pass target directly. Rotom-H resists almost any move a Nidoking is likely carry and can threaten Venomoth itself with Overheat. Unfortunately, Venomoth is likely to have multiple pass targets and will
probably have one that can beat Rotom-H. Chansey could always be used as a "catch all" answer to special threats, but just be wary that Venomoth could pass its boosts to a Pokemon that knows Psyshock.</p>

<p>One of the best things you can do to prepare yourself for Venomoth is to set up Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock will severely cut into Venomoth’s ability to set up multiple boosts or set up multiple times. Just putting the rocks on the field should help you a lot against the mini Mothra.</p>

[Dream World]

<p>Venomoth's Dream World ability is Miracle Skin, an interesting ability that decreases the accuracy of major status moves by 50%. Avoiding paralysis or sleep can be nice, though Venomoth cares little about burn and is immune to poison. The most interesting thing about Miracle Skin is that it has a 50% chance to make Taunt miss (though it does not affect Encore). This seems like an incredibly useful ability for a Pokemon aiming to set up, though, like Mental Herb, it will rarely be needed on Venomoth. Generally speaking, Tinted Lens is a fantastic ability that is too hard to pass up.</p>
 
Standard spread should be 252 HP / 252 Spe Timid with a bulkier set mentioned in AC. With maxed Defense Venomoth is guaranteed to survive Jolly Scarfcross's Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage.
 
Thanks for the imput SJ, I'll be sure to keep those in mind. 252hp / 252 speed was going to be the pain spread for the passed, with sp.A as an AC mention. I'll give full defensive an AC mention on the BP set too then.
 
Yeah, I'm going to OO that kind of set, something like:

"A bulky setup sweeper is possible, using heavy defensive investment and recovery alongside Quiver Dance's bulk, power and speed boosts alongside the coverage and power of tintend lens bug buzz. Quiver Dance and Bug Buzz would be accompanied by RestTalk or a combination of Roost with Sleep Powder or Substitute."

Or something like that...
 
Yeah, the CroMoth I used for a while is:

Venomoth @Leftovers
Nature: Bold
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
-Bug Buzz
-Quiver Dance
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
 
Venomoth is cool as fuck.

I think the offensive set outlined in OO is good enough for its own section. There are two different versions though. One with Quiver Dance and three attacks, and one with only two attacks and Sleep Powder to shut down a possible counter.

For the fully offensive set (not completely sure of the final setup, still testing it out):

name: Quiver Dance + 3 Attacks / Offensive
move 1: Bug Buzz
move 2: Quiver Dance
move 3: Giga Drain
move 4: Hidden Power Fighting / Psychic
item: Life Orb
ability: Tinted Lens
nature: Timid
evs.: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

You could just combine both sets into one as well, of course.
 
Yeah I'd like to see an offensive set on there as well. I'd have it as

name: Offensive
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Bug Buzz
move 3: Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb
move 4: Sleep Powder / HP Fighting
see Aero's post ^

You could also maybe slash BP on the last slot too. Venomoth in my experience is either played as a straight BPer or a sweeper, and with BP in the last slot of the offensive set, you can easily sweep the opponent's team if the picking is right with just Bug Buzz and Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb, or BP the hell out of the there when the going gets rough.

Of course the set in the OP can sweep too if the opponent is Venomoth weak.
 
Yeah I'd like to see an offensive set on there as well. I'd have it as

name: Offensive
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Bug Buzz
move 3: Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb
move 4: Sleep Powder / HP Fighting
see Aero's post ^

You could also maybe slash BP on the last slot too. Venomoth in my experience is either played as a straight BPer or a sweeper, and with BP in the last slot of the offensive set, you can easily sweep the opponent's team if the picking is right with just Bug Buzz and Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb, or BP the hell out of the there when the going gets rough.

Of course the set in the OP can sweep too if the opponent is Venomoth weak.

Yeah, use Oglemi's setup. I myself use three attacks instead of Sleep Powder for coverage, but it's still a great option. Just give it the main slash as above so it'll be up to the person's preference. I'd also mention Psychic (however as an afterthought) in the set's AC section. As for Baton Pass getting a slash, it's up to you and the QC team.
 
psychic/bug coverage with tinted lens is perfect coverage. not sure if other moves give better se things (what is giga drain hitting exactly?)
 
Toxicroak, Heatran, Blaiken, Excadrill, Gengar, Chandelure, Crobat, Steelix, Cobalion, Drifblim are the things that Venomoth's Bug Buzz does half damage to.

problems with...
Giga Drain: Heatran (OU, doesn't matter), Crobat
Sludge Bomb: Excadrill (OU, doesn't matter), Gengar (OU, doesn't matter), Heatran (OU, doesn't matter), Steelix, Cobalion
Psychic: none

Your best bet in UU is to go with Giga Drain (since it heals Venomoth), Psychic is better in OU while Sludge Bomb is just there for an extra STAB. I would make the set look like this:

name: Offensive Quiver Dance
move 1: Bug Buzz
move 2: Quiver Dance
move 3: Giga Drain / Psychic
move 4: Psychic / Sleep Powder / Baton Pass
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Tinted Lens
nature: Timid
evs.: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

To be honest, I don't see why Hidden Power Fighting is being used but that's just me. Baton Pass has some merit on an offensive set.
 
Giga Drain does not deal with Crobat, which is a terrific UU Poke, and probably Venomoth's best counter.

I also don't know why you would use HP Fighting, and not HP Ground (which doesn't drop your speed, and hits the many Poison types of UU for super effective damage, as well as the problematic Fire-types).
 
Giga Drain recovers Life Orb recoil, but I might have been still thinking of OU when it came to HP Fighting. I use Venomoth in both metagames and always have to switch styles (and is still getting used to the changing UU). I'm looking at threats right now and am also seeing little use of Fighting. I guess you hit Normals with it, but it's not like Bug Buzz doesn't do much to them anyways.

As for Crobat, that's why I like using three attacks instead of two. Venomoth especially needs the coverage, even with Tinted Lens.

*Edit*

And of course theres the obligatory Choice set for its own section or OO.
 
Forgot about Crobat but again I didn't and edited my post. Hidden Power Ground is an interesting idea but Crobat and Air Balloon are still common.
 
Giga Drain seems pretty :/ imo, even with the healing.

I'm pretty sure HP Ground > HP Fighting. Choice sets seem pretty meh, considering moth's average speed/special attack, and the SR weakness is the nail in the coffin.

added the offensive set
 
oh yeah i was mostly c/ping from aero's post, I wouldn't recommened Giga Drain myself. I'd make that slot Psychic / Sludge Bomb
 
You could mention Chansey as well as Rotom-H to beat Venomoth's pass target, since it will easily beat the special attacker (unless they have Psyshock or something). It also has Natural Cure to switch out of Sleep.
 
Hmmm, now that I think about it, I'd really want HP Fire to be at least a slash on the offensive set, or mentioned pretty strongly in AC. I'd rather hit Escavalier super effectively than Arcanine, though they're both pretty equally dangerous.

In any case

contrib_qc.png


QC 1/3

EDIT: I suppose ExtremeSpeed is a good reason to want to hit Arcanine, but he's gonna get you no matter what unless you catch him on the switch. So, I guess use your judgement.
 
In the analysis you said that Venomoth is the only Quiver Dancer to learn Baton Pass. This is not true - Masquerain also learns both Baton Pass and Quiver Dance. Then again, almost no one would use Masquerain in UU anyway...
 
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