Venusaur (Sunny Day)

alexwolf

alexwolf

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Sunbathing 'till i die!

[SET]
name: Sunny Day
move 1: Sunny Day
move 2: Energy Ball / SolarBeam
move 3: Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sleep Powder / Sludge Bomb
item: Leftovers
nature: Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set can sweep and support teams effectively. Sunny Day enables Venusaur to keep the sun up as the opposing weather inducers come in, which gives Venusaur at least one free turn to hit or put the opposing Pokemon to sleep, while being blazing fast thanks to Chlorophyll. Sunny Day also allows Venusaur to act as a standalone sweeper even if you lose the weather war, as it can easily clean up weakened teams. Energy Ball is the standard Grass-type move of choice, as it sports solid Base Power and accuracy; however, SolarBeam is also a viable choice. If Venusaur manages to use Sunny Day as the opposing weather inducer comes in, it will be able to use SolarBeam for one turn without having to worry about a weather change; an exception would be if the opponent has more than one weather inducer in his or her team, but this is extremely rare. SolarBeam is also very useful for cleaning up late-game, if sun has prevailed. Just be sure that you use SolarBeam with caution early game, as one mistake might result in Venusaur being KOed without accomplishing anything of note. Hidden Power Fire is Venusaur's best coverage move in sun, and thus takes the third slot. Sun boosts it to a respectable 105 Base Power, and it hits many common checks to Venusaur, such as Steel- and Grass-types, for super effective damage. Finally, there are two options for the last slot. Sleep Powder is a good move that can put Venusaur's common switch-ins, such as Heatran and Dragonite, out of commission. Sludge Bomb on the other hand, hits Grass-, Dragon-, and Fire-types not named Heatran harder than any other move in Venusaur's moveset.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Maximum Speed investment lets Venusaur outrun +1 base 105 Speed Pokemon, while maximum Special Attack and a Modest nature enable it to hit as hard as possible. Hidden Power Ice is a viable alternative to Hidden Power Fire if Dragonite, Salamence and Landorus are problematic for your team. Growth is also a viable alternative for the fourth moveslot if you want Venusaur to sweep more effectively late game. However, getting a boost is more difficult without the help of Sleep Powder. An alternate spread of 244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe with a Modest nature enables Venusaur to take hits better and outspeed base 130 Speed Pokemon. This spread also enables Venusaur to act as a bulky pivot for your team; while it is outsped by almost any Choice Scarf user, it can take one hit from almost all of them thanks to the significant HP investment. Another spread you might want to consider is 76 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe with a Timid nature.This lets Venusaur outspeed base 110 Speed Choice Scarf users, such as Latios and Gengar. If you go with Timid, though, SolarBeam is almost a necessity as Energy Ball's power won't quite cut it without the boost from a Modest nature. Expert Belt is an alternative over Leftovers for more power. With an Expert Belt, as well as Stealth Rock and sun support, Venusaur's Hidden Power Fire can 2HKO specially defensive Jirachi, and will always OHKO physically defensive Skarmory, while SolarBeam will OHKO mixed attacker 252/192+ Tyranitar 50% of the time. Furthermore, Sludge Bomb will OHKO offensive 220/0 Celebi 56.3% of the time with Stealth Rock support, and will always OHKO Bulk Up 236/212+ Breloom unconditionally. </p>

<p>As with most Venusaur sets, support from Drought Ninetales is almost mandatory, but you can still use this set without Ninetales if you want. Heatran, once again, is Venusaur's public enemy number one, so teammates that can handle it are essential. Dugtrio, Hydreigon, and Terrakion can take out Heatran with ease, and all of them can take a Fire move (assuming Dugtrio's Focus Sash is intact) without being KOed. As this set is adept at winning weather wars, it is a good idea to have another sun sweeper, such as Victreebel, Sawsbuck, or Choice Scarf Darmanitan, to clean up. This set doesn't necessarily have Growth to boost its offenses; therefore, many bulky Pokemon that can take a hit and cripple or OHKO it in return, such as Celebi and Reuniclus, are decent checks. For this reason Choice Band Dragonite and Choice Specs Latios are good partners for Venusaur. Dragonite can tank anything from both Celebi and Reuniclus and OHKO back with Outrage, and Latios can do the same, or Trick its item to Reuniclus to prevent it from sweeping if it has started using Calm Mind. </p>
 
Well, though I full well realize the value of a bulkier spread, the 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe spread should definitely get a large AC mention, as well as the use of Life Orb, as it serves a much different role to that of the given set (this one of course being mored geared towards serving as a pivot for Sun teams in need of one, as well as being dedicated to winning weather wars, while a more offensive spread offers the obvious direct benefit of greater offensive presence, as well as the ability to better clean late-game against more offensive teams, whose primary methods of checking such Chlorophyl users are largely in Choice Scarfed Pokemon attempting to revenge-kill it, ie.Landorus, Moxiemence, etc.). Also, as a user of the set myself, I would really like to see a mention of Sludge Bomb, preferably over Hidden Power Fire. Frankly, I myself have never been too greatly stricken in necessity to hit Steel-types when using Sun teams, though the secondary STAB offered by Sludge Bomb has proven itself time and time again, helping to push KO's of select Grass-types, as well as putting a fair dent in Dragon-type Pokemon such as the Lati twins and Dragonite, of whom Sun teams often struggle with. Just my two cents though.
 
I could have sworn that this set was in the works a while ago...
Anyways.
Looks pretty good, I can see it having good utility against rain teams as it can actually switch in, Sunny Day, and do some damage. Kind of like Roserade.
Actually, some calcs on how well it can switch into SpecsToed and other common Water-type attacks would be nice.

Actually, I'm not sure if Growth even deserves AC. Venusaur can't really pull off a Growth sweep without maximum coverage and/or Sleep Powder, and that means running it over Sunny Day, which defeats the purpose of the set. If you're using Venusaur as a pivot against Rain Teams, you're going to have to continually be using Sunny Day over and over to continue your sweep -- and it's difficult for Venusaur to pull that off. Honestly, I see this set as a good switchin that gives trouble to rain teams and has a niche over support Lilligant in its superior bulk and the Fighting-resistance and U-Turn neutrality it gets from its typing.
 
I do think that a max speed set should be AC'd just because of its ability to move before scarf landorus and scarf terrakion which helps alot when facing sand teams.
 
@col49

I have already put in AC the option to put enough Speed to outspeed Scarf Landorus, and i have also mentioned the use of Expert Belt. I don't know if LO would be a good idea, since this Venusuar is supposed to be able to take a hit (which Venusaur can do even without any HP investement)in order to use Sunny Day, so LO seems too much of a liability tbh. I don't know though, maybe it can get a mention in AC along with Sludge Bomb if it has enough support (Sludge Bomb with EB is terrible).

@Woodchuck

This Venusuar is not supposed to switch into SpecsToed, since 2 Specs Ice Beam will easily 2hko. But maybe i will add some calcs to show it's bulk, not really sure...

About Growth, i have found it useful to use when the weather war is over or when your opponent is not using weather at all. Of 'course if the enemy's Toed or Ttar is still alive, you won't have time to do anything else except using Sunny Day and an attack after their inducer switches out, but when the weather war is over, Growth can give you the power needed to sweep through teams. Also it is important to note that even without Sleep Powder, Venusuar can set-up quite easily, because of it's good bulk and resistances!

@dragonuser

Already done that.
 
It may not hurt to put timid on that spread to ensure that you can outspeed scarf Terrakion as that is generally a very solid check to sun team and it's sweepers(like volca/dnite). Even though the scarf set is declining in usage, it is still important imo to outspeed just because of how dangerous terrakion can be.
 
I see no problems with it, I run a Sunny Day Victrebell, and it works good for me. Not as effective as Venasaur, but I like Vic better (at least for the team I use it with.) However, this Venasaur deserves a spot on this site! Works greatly, helps with weather wars, and functions as a great utility.
 
Yeah, I've seen this type of Venusaur around to the point where I already thought it was onsite. My problem with this set in particular though, is its odd EV spread which forgoes the ability to outspeed Scarfers or tie with any other Venusaur in exchange for extra bulk, with reasons not explained. Also, the inability to threaten its targets without the Sun up can leave you open to a swift Ice Beam or Stone Edge while you attempt to change the weather on its setters. Basically, you're forfeiting a lot of momentum for the weather war when you could be going in for attacks and 2HKOing switch-ins with its more flexible standard set. I'm not all that crazy about it, personally.
 
I can't decide if I like HP Fire and Sleep Powder...HP Fire leaves you waled by so many Dragons and Sleep Powder just seems kinda useless...I can't see what advantages it's give you because this isn't exactly a support Pokemon.
 
@dragonuser

I could mention a faster spread with Timid, in order to outspeed Scarf Terrakion, but i don't know if it is worth the power loss. I will let the QC team decide about this.

@SJCrew

The common Scarf users that can outspeed Venusuar can't ohko him or even get close in doing so. Scarf Terrakion does 52,49%-62,15% with SE, Scarf Landorus does 51,38%-60,77% with EQ and Scarf Rotom-W does 31,49%-37,57% with HP Ice.
Also i gave enough reasons as to why the bulk is needed. First if all you need to take a hit in order to use Sunny Day effectively. Also the bulk is needed to act as a useful pivot for sun teams, being able to switch into stuff such as Leftovers + 3 attacks Toed, Lefties Gengar, SubToxic Gliscor or any Rotom-W variant.
Finally, i never said that you will attempt to switch the weather in front of it's setters. You will do so as they come in, or if you are sure that the opposing weather setter is not so threatening in the first place. And anyway i don't get what's your point, because even if you wanted to change the weather in front of let's say Tyranitar, what help is using Sunny Day first gonna do? If i wanted to set-up Sunny Day in front of a speedy Ttar, i would invest in HP in order to take the hit with ease, set-up the sun and then force him out. Why would i want to outspeed a speedy Ttar? I can't Solarbeam him on sand, HP Fire does shit, and Sleep Powder is better to use against pokes that actually wall you. So using Sunny Day is your best option. And what good is using Sunny Day first?

I am not sacrificing any momentum, quite the opposite actually. By being able to not get forced out by certain revenge killers, i can keep the momentum in my favor. For example CB Scizor does 62,58%-73,84% to 4 HP Venusaur, while it does 52,21%-61,6% to 244 HP Venu. LO Adamant Mamo does 73,51%-86,42% with Ice Shard to 4 HP Venu, while it does 61,33%-72,1% to 244 HP Venu. CB Dnite does 56,62%-66,89% with ES against 4 HP Venu, while it does 47,24%-55,8% to 244 HP Venu. Also by being able to set-up on more pokes, means that you have more opportunities to get momentum on your side as well.

@HP Fire is the best option overall, because it allows Venusuar to beat Volt-turn chains and also gives great coverage with Grass, while also being boosted by Sun. HP Ice is nice for pokes that are 4x weak to it, but otherwise it isn't that strong coming from Venu's mediocre SpA stat and with no boosting item. It can't even 2hko pokes weak to it such as Celebi, BU Breloom, Lati@s and Virizion. That's why i think that an AC mention is enough.
Finally Sleep Powder is a very good move, that allows you to cripple your counters, and generally put one poke out of the battle, so i don't know why you wouldn't use it...
 
The common Scarf users that can outspeed Venusuar can't ohko him or even get close in doing so. Scarf Terrakion does 52,49%-62,15% with SE, Scarf Landorus does 51,38%-60,77% with EQ and Scarf Rotom-W does 31,49%-37,57% with HP Ice.
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No no, you're thinking in a vacuum. First, you mention that he needs to take a hit in order to set up Sunny Day. Let's assume they're gonna death fodder Ferro/Forry and leave him in to Gyro Ball. That's 50-60% of your health gone before you Sleep/KO. Then Scarf Mence/Hydreigon/Lando come in and finish the dirty work. They're not supposed to check Venusaur, that's the entire point of having Chlorophyll. You say he needs bulk, but no moreso than the speed.

Also i gave enough reasons as to why the bulk is needed. First if all you need to take a hit in order to use Sunny Day effectively. Also the bulk is needed to act as a useful pivot for sun teams, being able to switch into stuff such as Leftovers + 3 attacks Toed, Lefties Gengar, SubToxic Gliscor or any Rotom-W variant.
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Yeah, being able to pivot is a good thing. But regular Venusaur can also do this with Leftovers and full offensive EVs. Specs Toed, for example, is a surefire 2HKO on both sets, and one Hydro Pump puts you into Bullet Punch/Espeed range. To me, the bulk doesn't seem to matter that much and you're losing to a lot more than you're supposed to.

Finally, i never said that you will attempt to switch the weather in front of it's setters.
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I know you didn't, but let's not split hairs now. I was assuming the most realistic conditions in which Venusaur can set up, since in any other situation, the weather setter can come right back in after he sets up and turn Solarbeam into a terrible move again.

Also by being able to set-up on more pokes, means that you have more opportunities to get momentum on your side as well.
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But using Solarbeam vs other weather without Dugtrio completely kills that momentum, as is the turn you require to set up Sunny Day for Venusaur to be threatening. Not being able to attack the turn he's in is strike one. Wasting turns on Solarbeam as Ttar switches in is another strike, and possibly a dead Venusaur if Ttar rocks CB. Not faster than Scarfers? Why are you even wasting your time. The least you can do is advocate a faster spread so that he can put a rampaging Mence to sleep, which would give him some use.
 
SJCrew said:
No no, you're thinking in a vacuum. First, you mention that he needs to take a hit in order to set up Sunny Day. Let's assume they're gonna death fodder Ferro/Forry and leave him in to Gyro Ball. That's 50-60% of your health gone before you Sleep/KO. Then Scarf Mence/Hydreigon/Lando come in and finish the dirty work. They're not supposed to check Venusaur, that's the entire point of having Chlorophyll. You say he needs bulk, but no moreso than the speed.
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Your actions should depend on what your opponent's team is. If you see that your opponent has Scarf Terrakion or Scarf Landorus, then simply don't let Vensuaur lose 50% of it's life. There are plenty of pokes that Venusaur can force out that can't do much in return such as Rotom-W, Gastrodon, defensive Politoed, SubToxic Gliscor, non Ice Beam Starmie, Tentacruel, defensive Celebi without HP Fire and BU Breloom after Sleep Clause is activated. Play more conservative. If those scarfers aren't in the opponent's team then you can play more reckless and can attempt more dangerous stuff, such as setting up on Ferrothorn, Forretress and Slowbro. Or finally if keeping Venusuar relatively healthy when facing the 2 scarfers that can do over 50% to Venusuar is difficult for you (Terrakion and Landorus), then simply pack 1 check or counter to those mons. Btw why did you list ScarfMence? With or without Speed evs, Mence walls Venusuar, and in the lategame, when ScarfMence attempts to sweep and actually uses Outrage, Sleep Clause will most likely have been already activated.

SJCrew said:
Yeah, being able to pivot is a good thing. But regular Venusaur can also do this with Leftovers and full offensive EVs. Specs Toed, for example, is a surefire 2HKO on both sets, and one Hydro Pump puts you into Bullet Punch/Espeed range. To me, the bulk doesn't seem to matter that much and you're losing to a lot more than you're supposed to.
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You are just saying generic things, with no real proof whatsoever. You picked one poke that can 2hko both spreads and called it a day... It doesn't work like this though. As i said again, if you want Venusuar to set-up Sunny Day reliably and be able to last to do it multiple times, then max HP is the way to go. If you want to outspeed the 2 scarfers, then simply run the spread listed in AC. If the QC team thinks that outspeeding those 2 threats is more important than doing all the stuff you can with max HP, then i will accept it, but for now my opinion is that max HP is the way to go.

SJCrew said:
I know you didn't, but let's not split hairs now. I was assuming the most realistic conditions in which Venusaur can set up, since in any other situation, the weather setter can come right back in after he sets up and turn Solarbeam into a terrible move again.
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Or you can predict the obvious switch-in and use Sunny Day when it is needed, meaning when the opposing weather inducer comes in.

SJCrew said:
But using Solarbeam vs other weather without Dugtrio completely kills that momentum, as is the turn you require to set up Sunny Day for Venusaur to be threatening. Not being able to attack the turn he's in is strike one. Wasting turns on Solarbeam as Ttar switches in is another strike, and possibly a dead Venusaur if Ttar rocks CB. Not faster than Scarfers? Why are you even wasting your time. The least you can do is advocate a faster spread so that he can put a rampaging Mence to sleep, which would give him some use.
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You don't get it. You use Sunny Day as the opposing weather inducer comes in on you (S.Defensive Ttar can take unboosted Energy Balls from Venu all day, and bulky Toed can take 1 also if needed). Check the replays to understand better how this set is played...
 
I did some laddering with this set just now. General impressions:

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-SJCrew-vs-Revenge-of-Splat-Cat--2012-05-13

I won this match, but it had absolutely nothing to do with Venusaur. I put Mew to sleep expecting Heatran to come in, so Venusaur was entirely useless for the rest of the battle. The rest of my team had to pick up the slack.

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-SJCrew-vs-That-Noob--2012-05-13

Whoops. Mispredicted and lost Venusaur. I should probably be using Energy Ball.

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-SJCrew-vs-krinable--2012-05-13

I used this set to its full potential and did exactly what the OP described, but Venusaur was still walled helplessly and had trouble using its STAB without guessing Politoed would come in every turn. Grass + Fire is really bad coverage even with Sleep Powder, since so many things wall Venusaur that it's hard to secure momentum anyway. Using Solarbeam on top of that... Sorry, but this is just bad.

It's a cool gimmick for those who are interested, but not worth a full set. OO/AC at best, bulky offensive spread for AC of the main set.
 
^above

This happened because you didn't use Venusaur the way you should. You don't bring him in against opposing weather inducers, except when the need arises. You also don't mindlessly spam Solarbeam when the opponent's weather inducer is alive, as you did in the second replay. You can't expect from Venusaur to win you alone the weather war.

After you use Sunny Day as the opponent's weather inducer switches out, take advantage of this situation with a poke more capable of doing so, not with Venusuar, which has to be afraid of using his main STAB as long as the enemy's weather inducer is alive. The only case when you can use Solarbeam safely is when the opponent's weather inducer is dead, or when the enemy's weather inducer switched in on you as you used Sunny Day, which has happened to me quite a few times. I have met countless opponents that let their Ttar/Toed get weakened in order to kill my Sunny Day Solarbeam Ninetales, and then forfeit as Venusaur sets up his own sun and sweeps easily.
 
Seems like a waste of a very potent sun sweeper... Alot of things wall it with ease and setting up the sun is pointless when it's coverage and speed are slashed. This seems more of situational type set. That can be filled nicely by Sunny Day Ninetales.
 
TBH, if the set were going to go on-site I say swap out Sleep Powder for something that can actually hit what walls you. Secondly, should this set go on site? Venusaur is one of the best things a Sun team has at its disposal, so do we wanna waste our one AMAZING Pokemon to be a support 'mon? It's like using Excadrill in Sand (when he was around) as your Rapid Spinner and investing bulk. Maybe if this was any other 'mon than Venusaur, but I can't see myself giving up a Sun team's MVS (Most Valuable Sweeper) to be used for support.
 
@ Chaos: But what u say is inaccurate, this set helps win weather war, and ninetailes is hard-pressed to set up sunny day with offensive weather inducers. Vena is a utility, not so much a sweeper, although it can also sweep. I would slash growth w/ sleep powder, rather than just AC as it gains more offensive power. Add a few more speed evs to outspeed base 115s, and it should be good. AC mention synthesis for more bulk.
 
@Shurtugal Sorry but are you stupid? Growth and Chlorophyll is what makes it a sweeper under sun. Plus 2 on both sides and double speed is not for a support poke. Your probably thinking of what it use to accomplish if so then that is totally fine.
 
Hi all. I red all the posts and even come back to the BTzz thread ( didn(t know about this section btw lol ). alexwolf, your spread should be an AC for very specific team without Dugtrio. The main effective one is 252/252.

If I understood weel Omicron wanted to say that it has been rejected 6 months ago so it is useless to post an other thread about it today. The fact is that many sun user ( I think Delko too ) use this set today. It is a support and sweep set, both at the same time.

Some months ago afater the end of the world cup a tournament has been organised with the best RMT including mine ( it is not ad for my old team, I don't care. ) and we had to give the logs and we were able to see all of them. Like 7 people used my team and only one didn't lead with Venusaur. They all thought it was a sweeper, a usefull one at the begining of the game. The problem is that it is not... It is a mid-late game sweeper.

You don't want to show the moveset early in the match fore many reasons and the principal is that you can use it to your advantage if you lost the weather war because your oppenent will let his weather inducer die when he was sure he wins it. Then Venusaur come.

Against rain, Venusaur is a huge threat because it takes nothing from BulkyToed and threaten all the rest of the team. You don't want to take risk with him since this set means Venusaur is the pillar of the team. You don't spamm Solarbeam because you see a grass weaknesses when you know there is a weather inducer.

This Venusaur is not the random growth using in no brain sun team. We have to build around him. Sure Dragoons stop him ( there is also a variant with HP ice depending on your team ) and that's why you need good support to take them down.

The Growth version is a pure late game sweeper which is actually weak to priority move because of Life orbe and without it, it doesn't KO some common Pokemons.

This version make a Pokemon usless with sleep Powder + Weakens the oppenent team preparing the field for a late game sweeper or for himself if there is no more fire-grass resistance. ( I will complete this later I have to go.)
 
To be honest, you have to be a prediction genius to not get fucked over by SolarBeam, and I'd much rather spam Energy Ball safely than have to be conservative over my Grass STAB due to the fact it has to be in sun. Yah, Sunny Day'ing on the switch is nice and all, but OO this~
 
@Jellyos

Sleep Powder puts out of the match anything that walls you, so i don't really get your problem. Sleep Powder is not a support move, sweeping Venusaur uses it too. And this Venusaurr is not a support mon. It is a self efficient sun sweeper that helps with weather wars, and it is a very good set, so no potential is wasted, if you know why you are using this Venusaur set, that is.

@Shurtugal

With the given evs, 115's are already outsped under the sun.

@Grimm70

Thx for your help in explaining how this set is played! Can you please tell me though, why max Speed is better? I mean the specific targets that you want to outspeed.

@Princess Bri

Solarbeam should be used, only when you are 100% certain that the opposing weather inducer won't come in. For example if you use Sunny Day, as Ttar comes in, then you can now freely fire off a Solarbeam. And of 'course after the weather war is over, Solarbeam is an amazing move to have, and Venusaur needs all the power he can get without any boosting move or item.
 
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