VGC 17 Discussion Thread

[ElementOfSmash]

What are some good teammates for Mimikyu? I'd really like to find a good way to use it, but the thing's extremely frail and dies within two or three turns, one of which I need to use to set up.

If you're using Mimikyu to set up, there are a few Quick Guard users you can choose from to protect him from things like Taunt and Fake Out. Crobat and Talonflame come to mind, but Phermosa, Passimian, Lucario, Pangoro and Scizor can all learn it too. It just depends on what you're building and what you need to compliment your core.
Tapu Lele does this too, and does it passively, but other than that, they don't have much synergy.
And all things considered, Mimikyu has pretty decent survivability thanks to Disguise.

(Note: These do not factor in the first hit absorbed by Disguise. So the 2HKOs are 3HKOs)
252+ SpA Celesteela Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mimikyu: 126-150 (77.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mimikyu: 134-158 (82.7 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Muk-Alola Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mimikyu: 106-126 (65.4 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mimikyu: 110-130 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those are some big threats. AlolaWak is still an issue, so pack someone who might can take care of him and his ilk. Maybe even your own AlolaWak!

I'm just tossing around ideas after running a few calcs. Let us know what you try and how it works!

 

[Project_Mars]

Another picture compiled by analyst-anon, again, this is looking at the most used pokemon of the top 25 on the ladder (plus some niche picks and stuff that is common in lower brackets like Pheromosa). Apparently you just can't keep Gengar down. With Grassy Terrain nerfing EQ damage and Gengar being a solid Tapu killer he's still seeing use on successful teams. Nihilego also benefits from grassy and has good anti-tapu matchups. Fini is starting to see more use and Torkoal/Guru meme teams are falling off a bit. Decidueye is gone which should be no big surprise. It surprises me a bit to see Salamence in a 'niche' position in a meta thats seems to love intimidate users so much but I guess the large amount of fairy/steel types, rain and trick room really rain on his parade. All of the intimidates is a boon for Metagross though.

Boon for Meta and Milotic, which is probably why they are in the top 25 in usage. Gengar is a bit of a surprise though, since i don't think it could OHKO Lele and can be OHKO'd back (well, Specs maybe. Would have to do calcs.) while Tapu Koko will at least outspeed and possibly do a bunch of damage first... but is likely to Drop in one hit. (Bulu would definitely get dropped and while Fini would be able to take a hit, it doesn't have much that can threaten back afaik.)

Fini being in the top usage isn't as much a surprise, but it is a pleasent one. Perhaps there is a good deal of diversity to this meta after all :P

Other than that nothing too surprising on too usage numbers, although i could expect Raichu to fall off eventually. On the high usage section under that: Golduck, Magnezone, and Lanturn are surprises. I wonder what makes people run them.

 

[Jash]

Boon for Meta and Milotic, which is probably why they are in the top 25 in usage. Gengar is a bit of a surprise though, since i don't think it could OHKO Lele and can be OHKO'd back (well, Specs maybe. Would have to do calcs.) while Tapu Koko will at least outspeed and possibly do a bunch of damage first... but is likely to Drop in one hit. (Bulu would definitely get dropped and while Fini would be able to take a hit, it doesn't have much that can threaten back afaik.)

Fini being in the top usage isn't as much a surprise, but it is a pleasent one. Perhaps there is a good deal of diversity to this meta after all :P

Other than that nothing too surprising on too usage numbers, although i could expect Raichu to fall off eventually. On the high usage section under that: Golduck, Magnezone, and Lanturn are surprises. I wonder what makes people run them.

Under pure speculation on my part, perhaps Golduck is the go-to right now for weather-negation. Lanturn I can definitely see being in a Rain team as an alternative to Gastrodon for Water Absorb, or potentially as a partner to Xurkitree for Volt Absorb.

Magnezone is the truest mystery to me, perhaps it's run with Sandstorm teams as a niche anti-Fairy? Popular sandstorm monsters seem to be Fairy-weak.

 

[ProtoSoul]

Under pure speculation on my part, perhaps Golduck is the go-to right now for weather-negation. Lanturn I can definitely see being in a Rain team as an alternative to Gastrodon for Water Absorb, or potentially as a partner to Xurkitree for Volt Absorb.

Magnezone is the truest mystery to me, perhaps it's run with Sandstorm teams as a niche anti-Fairy? Popular sandstorm monsters seem to be Fairy-weak.

*Disclaimer: I have not used Magnezone so I can only attest to the "on paper" standpoint. Which usually varies from viability in practice.*

Referencing the usage image that Kietharr posted, Magnezone looks like a fairly decent anti-meta pick right now. From its STABs it has the ability to beat Gyrados, Milotic, Peliper, Ninetales, Niheligo, Celesteela, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, and Tapu Fini. With Magnet Pull and HP Fire it can also trap and beat Kartana. Magnezone is pretty slow so it really needs either Trick Room or Tailwind support to function well, which is most likely why it's still a niche pick.

 

[Project_Mars]

*Disclaimer: I have not used Magnezone so I can only attest to the "on paper" standpoint. Which usually varies from viability in practice.*

Referencing the usage image that Kietharr posted, Magnezone looks like a fairly decent anti-meta pick right now. From its STABs it has the ability to beat Gyrados, Milotic, Peliper, Ninetales, Niheligo, Celesteela, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, and Tapu Fini. With Magnet Pull and HP Fire it can also trap and beat Kartana. Magnezone is pretty slow so it really needs either Trick Room or Tailwind support to function well, which is most likely why it's still a niche pick.

That makes sense and Magnet Pull would also trap Celesteela, so I can see that being a thing now. Interesting.

 

[Kietharr]

Under pure speculation on my part, perhaps Golduck is the go-to right now for weather-negation. Lanturn I can definitely see being in a Rain team as an alternative to Gastrodon for Water Absorb, or potentially as a partner to Xurkitree for Volt Absorb.

Magnezone is the truest mystery to me, perhaps it's run with Sandstorm teams as a niche anti-Fairy? Popular sandstorm monsters seem to be Fairy-weak.

Golduck is used with swift swim mostly and I guess it's because he's the best swift swimmer that doesn't care about intimidates in the meta. Drampa is the better cloud nine user and Gigalith is probably better for weather negation since he's the only thing that benefits directly from sand that sees use in the meta. Golduck actually benefits from rain boosting his STAB, it'd be counterproductive to run cloud nine on him rather than swift swim. Z-Belly Drum Poliwrath would be much riskier but a more powerful swift swim sweeper, I expect to see someone trying to run it eventually. Lanturn is basically ghetto Rotom-W and has seen use in that capacity in most past metas that lacked Rotom-W.

 

[NECH]

I think my team would do best from switching to a sun team

I'd take out Togedemaru. Gyarados, pelipper for Marowak, Torkoal, and either Comfey, litigant, or Oranguru.

 

[Jash]

Golduck is used with swift swim mostly and I guess it's because he's the best swift swimmer that doesn't care about intimidates in the meta. Drampa is the better cloud nine user and Gigalith is probably better for weather negation since he's the only thing that benefits directly from sand that sees use in the meta. Golduck actually benefits from rain boosting his STAB, it'd be counterproductive to run cloud nine on him rather than swift swim. Z-Belly Drum Poliwrath would be much riskier but a more powerful swift swim sweeper, I expect to see someone trying to run it eventually. Lanturn is basically ghetto Rotom-W and has seen use in that capacity in most past metas that lacked Rotom-W.

Thanks for the chain of logic! Completely forgot Drampa had access to Cloud Nine. If I may throw a question and some conjecture in:

Gigalith @ Weather negation, is it negation by manual Sandstorm? Or negation by coverage as a niche in other weather teams? I haven't seen more than one on Battle Spot right now so I've got no reference outside of Gen VI PU.

Z-Belly Drum Poliwrath sounds rather nice actually, unless the opponent doubles down on it or has a weakness check (matchup assuming defensive Poliwrath since Belly Drum would be the carrying offensive buff) {252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 186-218 (94.4 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO} that's still pretty surprising survival chance on Poliwrath's part, not excellent, but it means if it's not STAB and Rain isn't already on the field, Poliwrath could move last or in-between opponent turns, which may give it a better chance of survival as opposed to Z-Belly Drum going off first (which would negate the premise of Z-Belly Drum). Investments will limit you to being able to survive Koko xor Bulu (Lele is not a reasonably survivable option with the following best-defenses scenario {252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Poliwrath: 182-216 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO}). Mind you all of these calcs are with their respective terrains in effect, so anti-terrain play could be a consideration. In the end, the situation depends on the density of those Tapus which currently appear to be high, a team running Zellywrath would want the remaining 5 slots to be capable enough to work without Poli, or maybe use at least 1 slot to act as a wrecking ball for at least one of the Tapus.

So as a hypothesis I'd say Poliwrath would struggle to break the surface of the top 25 much to my disappointment as I'd love to see Facepunch Frog make it big. Hopefully someone with enough wit and gall could prove that hypothesis wrong. It's all conjecture on my end as I've no personal experience using Z-Belly Drum on anything as of yet.

 

[Kietharr]

Gigalith has sand stream now. It's ascended from its PU status by virtue of that alone. Still not a great pokemon in this meta because again, nothing aside from him benefits from sand.

Oh I forgot, Dugtrio-A benefits from sand. Poor little fella.

 

[NECH]

Still theorizing teams

How does

Nihilego
Tapu Fini
Marowak
Celesteela
Tapu Lele
Porygon-2

Sound as a team comp?

 

[Nighty]

Regarding Tapu Fini in the usage image Kietharr posted, what kind of moveset does she get to use most commonly? Is it all offensive moves? or does it play any sort of support?

 

[NECH]

Still theorizing teams

How does

Nihilego
Tapu Fini
Marowak
Celesteela
Tapu Lele
Porygon-2

Sound as a team comp?

Wait, how would this team deal with a rain team?

 

[Endika]

Is there a solid core already?

Not like Big6, but I've been watching a lot of Harambe-Torkoal-Lilligant and Koko-Marowak-Gyarados. Sets?

 

[Pyritie]

Is there a solid core already?

Not like Big6, but I've been watching a lot of Harambe-Torkoal-Lilligant and Koko-Marowak-Gyarados. Sets?

check here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vgc-17-complimentary-pairs.3587286/

 

[Mathochism]

Hi all.

A friend of my mine and I was looking to build a team for VGC this year so I decided to help him by doing a little research. I'm a pretty open-source type of guy, so I'm leaving this fruits of my labor here for everyone to use.

You need one move of each the following types on your team if you want to be able to hit everything in the format super-effectively:

1. Fire
2. Grass
3. Fighting
4. Ground
5. Fairy
6. Either (Electric + Ice) or Rock
7. (Poison + Bug + Ghost) or (Poison + Ghost + Dark) or (Bug + Ghost + Steel) or (Dark + Steel)

Item 6 requires that you have both one electric and one ice move on your team OR simply have a single rock move. Item 7 follows similarly.

Our next question was if it was possible to construct teams that provide a STAB for each of these types and, if so, how few Pokemon can you use at a minimum to do it. After entirely too much work, I determined the fewest number of Pokemon was five and that all of the possible combinations of Pokemon that did this were as follows:

WARNING: MASSIVE INFO DUMP

Hide

1. Salazzle
2. Vikavolt
3. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
4. Crabominable
5. Palossand

1. Salazzle
2. Tapu Koko
3. Parasect
4. Crabominable
5. Palossand

1. Salazzle
2. Tapu Koko
3. Trevenant / Decidueye / Dhelmise
4. Crabominable
5. Krookodile

1. Marowak-A
2. Vikavolt
3. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
4. Crabominable
5. Dugtrio-A

1. Marowak-A
2. Tapu Koko
3. Parasect
4. Crabominable
5. Dugtrio-A

1. Incineroar
2. Magnezone / Togedemaru
3. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
4. Crabominable
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Incineroar
2. Tapu Koko
3. Kartana
4. Crabominable
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Incineroar
2. Tapu Koko
3. Crabominable
4. Dugtrio-A
5. Any Grass Pokemon

1. Incineroar
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Crabominable
4. Dugtrio-A
5. Any Electric Pokemon

1. Magnezone / Togedemaru
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Crabominable
4. Krookodile
5. Any Fire Pokemon

1. Tapu Koko
2. Kartana
3. Crabominable
4. Krookodile
5. Any Fire Pokemon

1. Salazzle
2. Trevenant / Decidueye / Dhelmise
3. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
4. Carbink
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Salazzle
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
4. Palossand
5. Any Rock Pokemon

1. Salazzle
2. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
3. Palossand
4. Carbink
5. Any Grass Pokemon

1. Marowak-A
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
4. Nihilego
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
2. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
3. Nihilego
4. Palossand
5. Any Fire Pokemon

1. Salazzle
2. Trevenant / Decidueye / Dhelmise
3. Pangoro
4. Carbink
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Salazzle
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Pangoro
4. Palossand
5. Any Rock Pokemon

1. Salazzle
2. Pangoro
3. Palossand
4. Carbink
5. Any Grass Pokemon

1. Marowak-A
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Pangoro
4. Nihilego
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Marowak-A
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Nihilego
4. Krookodile
5. Any Fighting Pokemon

1. Incineroar
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Nihilego
4. Palossand
5. Any Fighting Pokemon

1. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
2. Pangoro
3. Nihilego
4. Palossand
5. Any Fire Pokemon

1. Marowak-A
2. Parasect
3. Lucario
4. Carbink
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Marowak-A
2. Parasect
3. Dugtrio-A
4. Carbink
5. Any Fighting Pokemon

1. Marowak-A
2. Kartana
3. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
4. Carbink
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Marowak-A
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
4. Dugtrio-A
5. Any Rock Pokemon

1. Marowak-A
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
4. Bastiodon / Probopass
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Marowak-A
2. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
3. Dugtrio-A
4. Carbink
5. Any Grass Pokemon

1. Parasect
2. Lucario
3. Palossand
4. Carbink
5. Any Fire Pokemon

1. Trevenant / Decidueye / Dhelmise
2. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
3. Dugtrio-A
4. Carbink
5. Any Fire Pokemon

1. Kartana
2. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
3. Palossand
4. Carbink
5. Any Fire Pokemon

1. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
2. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
3. Palossand
4. Bastiodon / Probopass
5. Any Fire Pokemon

1. Incineroar
2. Kartana
3. Carbink
4. Any Fighting Pokemon
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Incineroar
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Lucario
4. Any Ground Pokemon
5. Any Rock Pokemon

1. Incineroar
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Dugtrio-A
4. Any Fighting Pokemon
5. Any Rock Pokemon

1. Incineroar
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Bastiodon / Probopass
4. Any Fighting Pokemon
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Incineroar
2. Lucario
3. Carbink
4. Any Grass Pokemon
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Incineroar
2. Dugtrio-A
3. Carbink
4. Any Grass Pokemon
5. Any Fighting Pokemon

1. Kartana
2. Pangoro
3. Carbink
4. Any Fire Pokemon
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Kartana
2. Krookodile
3. Carbink
4. Any Fire Pokemon
5. Any Fighting Pokemon

1. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
2. Pangoro
3. Dugtrio-A
4. Any Fire Pokemon
5. Any Rock Pokemon

1. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
2. Pangoro
3. Bastiodon / Probopass
4. Any Fire Pokemon
5. Any Ground Pokemon

1. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
2. Lucario
3. Krookodile
4. Any Fire Pokemon
5. Any Rock Pokemon

1. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
2. Krookodile
3. Bastiodon / Probopass
4. Any Fire Pokemon
5. Any Fighting Pokemon

1. Pangoro
2. Dugtrio-A
3. Carbink
4. Any Fire Pokemon
5. Any Grass Pokemon

1. Lucario
2. Krookodile
3. Carbink
4. Any Fire Pokemon
5. Any Grass Pokemon

END OF INFO DUMP

Some of these are OBVIOUSLY non-viable, but I've put them here for information purposes regardless.

Some of you may ask after reading this about Dhelmise's triple STAB and how this affects things. Well, Dhelmise still doesn't get us down to four pokemon and the only special set using it is:

1. Dhelmise
2. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
3. Carbink
4. Any Fire Pokemon
5. Any Ground Pokemon

Feel free to replace Kartana with Dhelmise in any set that includes the former.

Hopefully this provides a decent starting point for people just looking into the VGC 2017 format.

Ksh edit: I put the info dump in a hide tag since that's more convenient

 

[Project_Mars]

Doing things this mathmatically does miss out on a lot of the nuances that can be taken to build a good team though, ESPECIALLY since you are only bringing four Pokemon to each match. It's an interesting thought exercise, but I don't see it being that good of a starting point compared to looking at Cores, since you are more likely to bring a two or three 'mon Core with you to a lot of matches.

 

[viperGTS]

I'm heavily considering Nihilego for my team; any hidden power i should aim for? Ice helps with Garchomp, but leaves it walled by Steels so I was also considering Fire. Any thoughts?

 

[NECH]

http://pastebin.com/VYZ3uvu9

I need help picking out a set for Celesteela and Tapu Lele.

 

[Project_Mars]

I'm heavily considering Nihilego for my team; any hidden power i should aim for? Ice helps with Garchomp, but leaves it walled by Steels so I was also considering Fire. Any thoughts?

I believe Ice is the go-to option, due to it being able to drop Garchomp, although if HP Fire could pick up any potential worthy KOs, at either +0 or +1, then trying that shouldn't hurt.

 

[Mathochism]

Doing things this mathmatically does miss out on a lot of the nuances that can be taken to build a good team though, ESPECIALLY since you are only bringing four Pokemon to each match. It's an interesting thought exercise, but I don't see it being that good of a starting point compared to looking at Cores, since you are more likely to bring a two or three 'mon Core with you to a lot of matches.

I don't disagree with you as there are plenty of other variables to take into account when team-building that this type of analysis neglects. However, there is one partial team that looks pretty good on that particular list based on what I know of the current VGC meta.


1. Marowak-A
2. Whimsicott / Shiinotic / Tapu Bulu
3. Buzzwole / Pheromosa
4. Nihilego
5. Any Ground Pokemon

Both Marowak-A and Tapu Bulu are top-tier threats at the moment. Buzzwole and Nihilego ain't slouches, either. Not sure about Pheromosa in doubles, but it may be decent. The ground Pokemon could be Garchomp, and then it's just a matter of finding a suitable sixth. It's certainly not optimized, but it's an interesting experiment regardless.

 

[Arkturus-Licht.]

Hi guys, I need your help....
I want to build a VGC 2017 team with MInior, but i thought over three hours and have no idea.
Please help me.


here the Spread of Minior:

Minior-Blue @ White Herb
Ability: Shields Down
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Shell Smash
- Rock Slide
- Acrobatics

I need a mon with Intimidate, cause:

252+ Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Minior-Up: 188-224 (112.5 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Minior-Up: 128-152 (76.6 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Please help me guys by building this team, it would be great :)
thanks

<(^-^<) <-- Kirby

 

[Kietharr]

Anyone building a team would do well to look at the finals of the first event because I don't think the 'standard' meta is going to change too radically from here. Gyarados can be swapped for another bulky water like Milotic, you want either Garchomp or Krookodile for an electric immunity with a strong ground STAB to deal with the occasional Muk-A (Krook can help with role compression since it's an intimidate and also runs roar/taunt). You need something that's solidly anti-tapu and Marowak-A both fills that role and provides LR support (Togedemaru is also a decent option for this and can carry nuzzle for speed control, again role compression is nice). You want a Tapu for terrain play and Koko is nice because it's the tapu that needs the least support.

It's not to say that ONLY this team is viable, but I can't see the meta going somewhere that makes a team like this not viable.

 

[ck49]

snip

I get the sense that Alolawak/Gyarados/Celesteela/Your Favorite Tapu is going to be this gen's core of choice. Both these teams use it, I personally have been using it, and it sure seems like every other team on showdown is using it. It's a core that can operate under TR and in normal speed, especially if accompanied with a tailwind/nuzzle/thunderwave user. It also doesn't seem to have an obvious counter. I'm interested to see how the meta adapts to it.

 

[darkmaster1415]

Should my team changes because of the finals yesterday?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/electric-terrain-team.3588309/

 

[NECH]

http://pastebin.com/kRGXKerm I feel like this team has potential I just need more guidance