VGC 17 Discussion Thread

[Theorymon]

So I've just been playing on PS with a Trick Room team someone on the Smogon VGC Discord made. I probably won't be able to get super seriously involved until my final exams are over, but just a quick impression that's on my mind right now.

I am actually fairly disappointed with Oranguru at the moment. I don't think its bad, but its bulk sorta leaves something to be desired, since it has a lot of trouble taking on random Z moves, double targeting, etc. It's certainly no Cresselia, so I feel that its lack of offensive presence just sorta does it in there when combined with its average bulk. As fun as using it with Torkoal is, Torkoal itself isn't very easy to use since once its HP has gone down an easy amount, it doesn't do that much damage. It's also really weak to people just switching in Pelipper instead of leading with it! Note that I have not used Torkoal + Lilligant however, so I don't have any comments on that yet!

Interestingly enough, the 3 other offensive Pokemon I used on the team: Araquanid, Drampa, and Gigalith, where a lot more consistent than Torkoal. Araquanid is just really powerful, Drampa's Hyper Voices actually hurt like hell and it has 3 really cool abilities (Berserker for the power boost, Sap Sipper to make Spore a non-issue, and Cloud Nine to screw up weather), and Gigalith was pretty damn bulky (though be warned, it doesn't do very well against Celesteela after it uses its Z move!).

I think its at least clear so far that the best user of Trick Room by far is Porygon2, so I think next time I make a Trick Room team, I'm just going to ditch Oranguru. There could be some untapped potential I am totally missing, but I'm not very impressed with it thus far, even though Instruct is pretty rad!

 

[CrimSonata]

You're setting yourself up for potential adrenaline orb Milotic problems with three intimidates and no strong grass/electric coverage to power through it. Lele can be outsped and OHKO'd by hydro pump from an offensive set, Gyarados won't win a prolonged fight with it no matter what set either are using. Muk can win against some offensive variants but will lose against most defensive ones.

doesnt adrenaline orb only work once, so milotic is getting +1 boost max, so multiple intimidate wont change much would it?

 

[Kietharr]

Multiple intimidates gives it multiple competitive boosts which is what you need to be worried about. One adrenaline orb boost and it can easily outspeed up to base 100 with some investment. Most offensive sets will be EV'd to outspeed Garchomp after a boost at base 102.

It just puts a lot of pressure on you when you see a Milotic in your opponent's team preview since you can't really run without intimidate, and will usually want to bring two of your three intimidate users.

 

[CrimSonata]

hah

Multiple intimidates gives it multiple competitive boosts which is what you need to be worried about. One adrenaline orb boost and it can easily outspeed up to base 100 with some investment. Most offensive sets will be EV'd to outspeed Garchomp after a boost at base 102.

It just puts a lot of pressure on you when you see a Milotic in your opponent's team preview since you can't really run without intimidate, and will usually want to bring two of your three intimidate users.

haha so I guess a garaydos/salamence/arcanine/krookodile core would just get rekt by Milotic, but perhaps its a good gamble, what if i could have some trick room option to deal with that boosted Milotic

 

[4lexander3]

hah



haha so I guess a garaydos/salamence/arcanine/krookodile core would just get rekt by Milotic, but perhaps its a good gamble, what if i could have some trick room option to deal with that boosted Milotic

Milotic is just way to bulky... Furthermore the opponent might lead against TR or your setter just gets oneshotted. It is completely not worth running lots of Intimidators and there is no doubt.

 

[bluecooljay14]

How is Alolan Ninetales in VGC atm? It's my favorite Pokemon so I'm going to use it regardless, but is it good?


I'm new to VGC and seeking out good team members for it as well, so if you guys have any ideas on that, just let me know.

 

[mew-2Chainz]

I myself have had a lot of fun and success with sand teams this season. I'd like to share with you some of my favorites to use.

Gigalith @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake / Bulldoze
- Wide Guard
- Protect

Unlike stereotypical rock/ground types like Golem that have nasty quadruple weaknesses and poor special defenses, Gigalith has a solid 80 base Special Defense and a pure Rock typing. Once you factor in the special defense boost from Sand and the special defensive investment you give him through EVs, he becomes a very good mixed wall. He can suck up moves like scald and earthquake with relative ease. I run Bulldoze on my Gigalith as a type of bootleg speed control, but earthquake works fine too. Explosion doesn't have much use either; you'll actually want this thing around as it's a good wall and weather wars are common.

Dugtrio-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Force
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Stone Edge
- Iron Head
- Protect

Dios Mio. This dude hits like a truck once sands up. His 100 base attack may not seem too special, but once sand force and life orb factor in, he puts holes in the opposing pokemon .Iron Head obliterates Tapus not name Fini, and rock slide cleans out flying types like Salamence and Gyarados. His speed tier is also really frickin' good to boot.

Nihilego @ Focus Sash / Air Balloon
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Bomb
- Grass Knot
- Protect

Not many sand attackers are good from the special side (ESPECIALLY for rock types), so the diversity Nihilego brings to sand teams is greatly appreciated. Under sand, Nihilego's Special Defense becomes superb, And her STAB Sludge bomb quickly disposes of Tapus. Grass Knot is my prefered coverage move, as it lets it hit bulky grass types like Gastrodon and Wishiwashi. Her poor physical defense makes her susceptible to moves like Earthquake, so Air balloon can be used here too, but sash has been more consistent for me. Beast boost is great here, as it boosts her attackfor each KO; this allows lego to quickly steam rolls opponents. It's definitely saved me a couple of times.

 

[ck49]

How is Alolan Ninetales in VGC atm? It's my favorite Pokemon so I'm going to use it regardless, but is it good?


I'm new to VGC and seeking out good team members for it as well, so if you guys have any ideas on that, just let me know.

Actually, it is. You can set up hail, which is good on its own since you can spam Blizzard. You can also use Aurora Veil, which is like Reflect and Light Screen rolled into one, but it only works in hail. ShadyPenguin has a couple videos where he uses one on his team if you're looking for inspiration.

 

[R-B-Y]

I myself have had a lot of fun and success with sand teams this season. I'd like to share with you some of my favorites to use.

Gigalith @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake / Bulldoze
- Wide Guard
- Protect

Unlike stereotypical rock/ground types like Golem that have nasty quadruple weaknesses and poor special defenses, Gigalith has a solid 80 base Special Defense and a pure Rock typing. Once you factor in the special defense boost from Sand and the special defensive investment you give him through EVs, he becomes a very good mixed wall. He can suck up moves like scald and earthquake with relative ease. I run Bulldoze on my Gigalith as a type of bootleg speed control, but earthquake works fine too. Explosion doesn't have much use either; you'll actually want this thing around as it's a good wall and weather wars are common.

Dugtrio-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Force
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Stone Edge
- Iron Head
- Protect

Dios Mio. This dude hits like a truck once sands up. His 100 base attack may not seem too special, but once sand force and life orb factor in, he puts holes in the opposing pokemon .Iron Head obliterates Tapus not name Fini, and rock slide cleans out flying types like Salamence and Gyarados. His speed tier is also really frickin' good to boot.

Nihilego @ Focus Sash / Air Balloon
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Bomb
- Grass Knot
- Protect

Not many sand attackers are good from the special side (ESPECIALLY for rock types), so the diversity Nihilego brings to sand teams is greatly appreciated. Under sand, Nihilego's Special Defense becomes superb, And her STAB Sludge bomb quickly disposes of Tapus. Grass Knot is my prefered coverage move, as it lets it hit bulky grass types like Gastrodon and Wishiwashi. Her poor physical defense makes her susceptible to moves like Earthquake, so Air balloon can be used here too, but sash has been more consistent for me. Beast boost is great here, as it boosts her attackfor each KO; this allows lego to quickly steam rolls opponents. It's definitely saved me a couple of times.

That's actually really cool. How do you deal with pheromosa and hariyama though? And garchomp

 

[ElementOfSmash]

That's actually really cool. How do you deal with pheromosa and hariyama though? And garchomp

I'd imagine there's a Tapu Fini/Milo slot in the team for those guys. Or even Bulu, to also deal with Water types and provide some regen to the bulky teammates.

That's how I'd probably do it. But I'm still at a p low ELO, so maybe I'm wrong here.

 

[CrimSonata]

How does Metagross fit into a meta game, would he be a trickroom tank/sweeper? Does relax nature work well with Metagross (increase defense, lower speed further)

 

[ElementOfSmash]

How does Metagross fit into a meta game, would he be a trickroom tank/sweeper? Does relax nature work well with Metagross (increase defense, lower speed further)

He's a faster Celesteela substitute. If you aren't spamming EQ, you can forego the Flying type for Psychic. This makes him less vulnerable to Electric and Rock moves. But he's super vulnerable to Alolan Marowak. Which is why we don't see him much, I think.
And no, he wouldn't be great on TR. Quiet Celesteela would be better for a Special Steel TR Sweeper.

Hey guys, do you know if there's a giveaway of a 6IV ditto?

I seriously doubt this. It took forever to get a 5IV Ditto. I'd be willing to bet that the people who did manage to get a 6IV Ditto (hats off to you guys, btw), aren't very likely to just give them out right now.

 

[Pyritie]

I seriously doubt this. It took forever to get a 5IV Ditto. I'd be willing to bet that the people who did manage to get a 6IV Ditto (hats off to you guys, btw), aren't very likely to just give them out right now.

Cloning is a thing. Check out the wifi forum, there are always giveaways going on over there.

 

[ElementOfSmash]

Cloning is a thing. Check out the wifi forum, there are always giveaways going on over there.

Huh. Today I learned.

I didn't know what was still a thing with the 3DS. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[CrimSonata]

How does an intimate pokemon fit into a team. Is having 2 ok? or you should only have 1 at max??

Also I'm new to VGC and seeking out good team members for modest salamence, it know it is a generally good sweeper but how does it fit into the rest of the team and what team should i put it in and what role should it play, should it always be a lead to get a free intimidate off?

 

[mew-2Chainz]

How does an intimate pokemon fit into a team. Is having 2 ok? or you should only have 1 at max??

Also I'm new to VGC and seeking out good team members for modest salamence, it know it is a generally good sweeper but how does it fit into the rest of the team and what team should i put it in and what role should it play, should it always be a lead to get a free intimidate off?

double intimidate is fine, and even really good, depending on the team. Just watch out for competitive Milotic, as Milotic get's a big Special Attack boost from the lowered stats. When he should lead is really just dependent on what the rest of the team is.

 

[CrimSonata]

double intimidate is fine, and even really good, depending on the team. Just watch out for competitive Milotic, as Milotic get's a big Special Attack boost from the lowered stats. When he should lead is really just dependent on what the rest of the team is.

how does he fit with the rest of the team though. What members should I build around him. Slow pokemons to deal with trick room? one steel type to bash the fairies and the tapus? is celeesteela or do i need ANOTHER steel type?

 

[Ctown]

how does he fit with the rest of the team though. What members should I build around him. Slow pokemons to deal with trick room? one steel type to bash the fairies and the tapus? is celeesteela or do i need ANOTHER steel type?

Mence plays more of a complimentary role in this year's meta similar to gyarados, with both having intimidate and ground immunity. There are too many fairies running around for salamence to thrive as a teams focal point. For an example of how mence can be used, Aaron Zheng has been using it on a team on his YouTube channel (cybertronproductions I believe).

 

[CrimSonata]

Mence plays more of a complimentary role in this year's meta similar to gyarados, with both having intimidate and ground immunity. There are too many fairies running around for salamence to thrive as a teams focal point. For an example of how mence can be used, Aaron Zheng has been using it on a team on his YouTube channel (cybertronproductions I believe).

Yea I saw that, he used it to balanced his guru+torkoal trickroom team, but I dont really wanna run a TR team. I dunno many team archetypes too, except rain teams, maybe some sort of weather team like hail...

 

[ElementOfSmash]

Yea I saw that, he used it to balanced his guru+torkoal trickroom team, but I dont really wanna run a TR team. I dunno many team archetypes too, except rain teams, maybe some sort of weather team like hail...

You don't have to run TR. That was just an example meant to highlight how Mence is being used right now.
The point that's being made is don't build around Mence. I'd suggest looking at the Viable Pokemon and Complimentary Pairs threads. Find or make a core that appeals to you, and start building around that.

 

[CrimSonata]

I looked at quite a few builds, can you explain how building around a core works.

Are my complimentary roles supposed to addressed the weakness of my core. E.g. I might have some Tapu Koko, Raichu core with heavy electric spam but they are weak to ground and raichu might be weak to physical attacks, So I can switch in Mence to take the EQ with ground immunity as well as get an intimidate off to weaken their physical attacks, does that sound about right?

Could Mence somehow fit into an Eeveepass core. I have no idea how so far. Maybe it can just be my secondary sweeper in eeveepass behind Tapu Lele.

 

[Ctown]

I couldn't tell you about the eeveeboost question because I haven't tried one of those teams yet, but your second paragraph is the correct way of thinking. In vgc you need to think about team synergy, offensive and defensive.

Defensive synergy involves having teammates covering each other's weaknesses so that you have the ability to improve your board position through switching without taking too much damage.

Edit: The problem with mence (Eevee boost or not) is his coverage and lack of spread moves. His special movepool is limited to fire blast/flamethrower, Draco/dragon pulse, hydro pump, and that's it... Maybe hidden power? Even if he can ko both mons on the field, he can only target one of them which leaves him vulnerable to protect + HP ice/ ice beam, which are carried by everyone and their brother.

 

[ElementOfSmash]

I couldn't tell you about the eeveeboost question because I haven't tried one of those teams yet, but your second paragraph is the correct way of thinking. In vgc you need to think about team synergy, offensive and defensive.

Defensive synergy involves having teammates covering each other's weaknesses so that you have the ability to improve your board position through switching without taking too much damage.

Edit: The problem with mence (Eevee boost or not) is his coverage and lack of spread moves. His special movepool is limited to fire blast/flamethrower, Draco/dragon pulse, hydro pump, and that's it... Maybe hidden power? Even if he can ko both mons on the field, he can only target one of them which leaves him vulnerable to protect + HP ice/ ice beam, which are carried by everyone and their brother.

This.

Find a viable pokemon that appeals to you. Find a pokemon or two that work well with it. That covers it's weaknesses. Or provides a helpful boost. Or preferably both.

Then you fill in with support mons, and address specific weaknesses on your team.

Mence is a support pokemon. His best move is Draco Meteor, which can pick up an OHKO or two, sure. But this is a Fairy heavy meta. He just is not equipped to be any kind of sweeper like MegaMence was in 2014/2015.
I think he'll become more common when the bank comes out and gives up access to Tailwind Mence, and more viable with his access to Hyper Voice and Heat Wave.

 

[CrimSonata]

This.

Find a viable pokemon that appeals to you. Find a pokemon or two that work well with it. That covers it's weaknesses. Or provides a helpful boost. Or preferably both.

Then you fill in with support mons, and address specific weaknesses on your team.

Mence is a support pokemon. His best move is Draco Meteor, which can pick up an OHKO or two, sure. But this is a Fairy heavy meta. He just is not equipped to be any kind of sweeper like MegaMence was in 2014/2015.
I think he'll become more common when the bank comes out and gives up access to Tailwind Mence, and more viable with his access to Hyper Voice and Heat Wave.

What is pokebank, when does it come out and why would it give access to tailwing and hyper voice, heat wave etc? Do I GET the pokemon from the bank or something?

 

[ElementOfSmash]

What is pokebank, when does it come out and why would it give access to tailwing and hyper voice, heat wave etc? Do I GET the pokemon from the bank or something?

PokeBank is used to store pokemon from one game that you have (ORAS, XY) and move them to another. Right now, it isn't compatible with Sun and Moon.
Certain moves like Tailwind, Heat Wave, Hyper Voice, Air Slash, Defog, et al. were only available as TMs or Tutors in previous gens. When Pokemon Bank is updated, we can move those pokemon into our SM games.

In January 2017, the Nintendo 3DS downloadable software Pokémon Bank is expected to receive an update for compatibility with Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon.

This is what we know about "when".