VGC 2016 Rules - "Uber" legendaries are back!

[Voltage]

Ok, so my dear fellow Smogoners, I need your help. What's the best set for Primal Groudon and Mega Ray in doubles? What would be the best function they would serve? I honestly have no idea on how to use them.

No matter what, Pdon wants Precipe Blades over EQ since it hits harder, and doesn't worry about Wide Guard. I'd also consider giving Pdon Rock Slide and Overheat so that it can flinch and nuke things when needed. MRay probably will want something a bit more interesting, probably just a variatnt that hits hrd and can break through fairies and steels.

 

[Mymble]

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 60 HP / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Protect

this set is actually pretty cool from my testing so far. primal kyogre is super bulky so it can off a sub set really nicely. the speed is for pre mega evolved adamant/modest rayquaza which seemed a decent speed tier to shoot for before things are established. scald and ice beam are pretty much all kyogre needs, although thunder could be used but doesn't improve coverage massively. kyogre seemed decent just because you can bring it in on groundon and fuck that over, although you should probably bring more than just kyogre to deal with groundon. the meta is super unstable right now and everything is very tentative, so i don't want to write too much.

---

also, 252+ SpA Mega Rayquaza Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 212-252 (102.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Derivatives]

Easy

Groudon

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades / Earthquake
- Fire Punch / Overheat
- Iron Head / Rock Slide/ Stone Edge
- Protect
Slashes are in order of best->worst. You just try to hit hard with this really.

Rayquaza

Rayquaza-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Delta Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Dragon Claw / Extreme Speed / Iron Head
- Swords Dance / Dragon Dance
- Protect / Extreme Speed

This time slashes are in order of my most preferred->my least preferred. Try to hit as hard as possible with this one, and setting up makes you get a lot of extra KOs (Swords Dance boosts more than Dragon Dance and gives MRay more immediate power).

When it comes to the primal mons I like to have them as slow as possible to win weather wars tbh, and that makes them really useful in tr as well.

 

[Prof. Almeida]

Easy

Groudon

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades / Earthquake
- Fire Punch / Overheat
- Iron Head / Rock Slide/ Stone Edge
- Protect
Slashes are in order of best->worst. You just try to hit hard with this really.

Rayquaza

Rayquaza-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Delta Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Dragon Claw / Extreme Speed / Iron Head
- Swords Dance / Dragon Dance
- Protect / Extreme Speed

This time slashes are in order of my most preferred->my least preferred. Try to hit as hard as possible with this one, and setting up makes you get a lot of extra KOs (Swords Dance boosts more than Dragon Dance and gives MRay more immediate power).

When it comes to the primal mons I like to have them as slow as possible to win weather wars tbh, and that makes them really useful in tr as well.

Thanks a lot.

But wouldn't a Brave Groudon work better for a Weather war, and also for a TR Cress support team?

 

[Derivatives]

Definitely. But I still like having just a bit of speed to beat the really slow pdons by spamming Precipice Blades/Earthquake and I like to see if opposing Primal Kyogre are slower than me, just to ensure that I'm making the correct plays based on the speeds.

 

[Vengeance417]

I'm well aware of the MASSIVE opportunity cost of not running Mega Rayquaza, but I feel Mega Mewtwo Y would be a fun mon to use. Having Insomnia means it won't be put to sleep by DV Smeargle or Amoonguss's Spore, and naturally having the highest Special Attack and one of the highest Speed stats in VGC means MM2Y shouldn't be underestimated.

Speaking of Pokemon with Y megas, it is time to say goodbye to our beloved Gen 1 Fire-type starter.

ripperoni in pepperoni Mega Charizard Y ;_;7

 

[Prof. Almeida]

I'm well aware of the MASSIVE opportunity cost of not running Mega Rayquaza, but I feel Mega Mewtwo Y would be a fun mon to use. Having Insomnia means it won't be put to sleep by DV Smeargle or Amoonguss's Spore, and naturally having the highest Special Attack and one of the highest Speed stats in VGC means MM2Y shouldn't be underestimated.

Speaking of Pokemon with Y megas, it is time to say goodbye to our beloved Gen 1 Fire-type starter.

ripperoni in pepperoni Mega Charizard Y ;_;7

I was thinking about it as well. Also, Ditto. Ah, Ditto.

 

[Jibaku]

Wonder how much the metagame will change from Generation Showdown. That was a fun Battle Competition that pretty much had the same ruleset (minus pentagon). Some stuff I recall off the top of my head.

- Mega Ray was great but not like some unstoppable god. Biggest reason it was borked in singles is because the format meant that Ray could set up and blow up things after things without much of a retaliation. Not as easy to do that here. Speed control is also more prevalent here and Rayquaza's relatively weak bulk and Dragon Ascent defense drops are more easily exploited. Did I mention that it takes up both your Uber and mega slots? The primals are scarier imo.

- Mega Salamence was a cool alternate option and generally has a matchup advantage vs Ray which is neat.

- Kanga/Xern was a great pubstomping combo but I had a harder time pulling it off once I started climbing.

- Primal Groudon was super consistent and I ran him in all my 30 matches. Had serious issues with random cheeses though, like Worry Seed Whimsicott and Role Play Thundurus/Liepard. Skill Swap Cress+Kyogre wasn't fun to play against either.

- Gravity was used quite a bit but I'm not sure if it's really that great since the enemy PDon could also wage a Precipice Blades war against you.

- There was a surprising number of Liepards.

 

[Prof. Almeida]

At NB, an user (Kyurem Snuggler) ran some Weather shenanigans, and put the results in a doc:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XyYZdB-_NMlS0_kQBYi0AoT9YACvWFQ_eRCtwyUHQW8/edit

 

[alex amor]

o wow this is great they might be realisng vgc

 

[ProjectTitan313]

- Primal Groudon was super consistent and I ran him in all my 30 matches. Had serious issues with random cheeses though, like Worry Seed Whimsicott and Role Play Thundurus/Liepard. Skill Swap Cress+Kyogre wasn't fun to play against either.

Follow Me, prob solved. That's what I do to TerraCott and CressTran lol.

Skill Swap Rocky Helmet Cress could be so fun.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Yveltal is surprisingly good w/ Black Glasses Sucker Punch and Foul Play. Foul Play makes mega mence anr ray not able to safely set up

252 Atk Black Glasses Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 94-112 (54.9 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Black Glasses Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 169-199 (98.8 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Black Glasses Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 165-195 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Black Glasses Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 246-291 (136.6 - 161.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
mandatory
Fake out support on the first turn if they try to send it out and they get punished hard. Also since MM2Y is popular Sucker Punch is great.

Cliche Clafairy + Ray/Xern is a thing so I tend to use Mega Zor as the mega of choice as it has priority BP which helps in so many cases and it also resist ESpeed from Ray. Priority is going to be a mandatory for teams since there are to many threats like Xern and MM2Y and Bullet Punch seems to fit the bill for me. Unfortunately it is a mega slot but I can work either way on solo or dual mega teams. Solid check to the high tier threats.


One more note is that speed control is more important than ever with everything being able to nuke the next threat. On my team at the moment I have Tailwind + Sucker Punch Yveltal, Icy Wind Cresselia, Sash + Glare Serperior, Dual Guard Top, Bullet Punch Zor and Scarf KW. Everything on the team is there to to deal with faster threats but still hit hard. But that is all at the moment except for when 2016 VGC analysis start Bacon Bird is mine.

 

[SlashingScizors]

Can't wait for 2016 and pokemon Z.Weather teams will be on the run with primal kyogre and primal groudon,and I guess thats one reason to use mega ray.I don't know what gamefreak was thinking when they allowed mega ray and banned hoopa,celebi and pokemon that weren't even going to be that good in this format.I kinda understand why they banned mew though.

 

[Ksh13]

Can't wait for 2016 and pokemon Z.Weather teams will be on the run with primal kyogre and primal groudon,and I guess thats one reason to use mega ray.I don't know what gamefreak was thinking when they allowed mega ray and banned hoopa,celebi and pokemon that weren't even going to be that good in this format.I kinda understand why they banned mew though.

It's because they would then need to allow Arceus and Darkrai with friends for it to make sense.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Can't wait for 2016 and pokemon Z.Weather teams will be on the run with primal kyogre and primal groudon,and I guess thats one reason to use mega ray.I don't know what gamefreak was thinking when they allowed mega ray and banned hoopa,celebi and pokemon that weren't even going to be that good in this format.I kinda understand why they banned mew though.

I have actually found mega ray to be underwhelming but I guess it is just how you build the team. Weather is definately prominent but if it becomes to overwhelming for standard build it will be adapted to very quickly. Those legendaries are "events" meaning not everyone has access to them but I felt they just slided Deoxys in there because in doubles that would be over centralizing.

 

[Theorymon]

I played a lot of this via generation showdown, and I agree with the setiment that Mega Rayquaza is actualy pretty mangable. Don't get me wrong, its still a very dangerous Pokemon: but its not like it was in Ubers where there was almost no reason to use any other Mega. Mega Rayquaza dies pretty fast, AND it uses up both an Ubers and Mega Slot. I remember a lot of people ended up actually replacing their Mega Rayquaza with Mega Salamence last time, just to give them an extra Uber slot! It helps that Mega Salamence can bonk Mega Rayquaza that aren't using Focus Sash as well!

Something you guys might really wanna watch out for is the dreaded Cresselia + Primal Groudon. Basically, Cresselia uses Skill Swap on Primal Groudon, reactivating Desolate Land against Primal Kyogre switch-ins, and now Groudon is IMMUNE to Ground moves, giving it no weaknesses! It also helps that Cresselia could use Trick Room for speed control. This strategy isn't unstopable (it isnt a big fan of Gravity, other Skill Swappers, or Taunt), but its still something to watch out for, since a lot of top battlers were using that in generation showdown!

 

[LightningLord2]

I like that Kyurem and Zygarde are on the Ubers list - they could easily become the least used Pokémon in the competition.

Also, is Xerneas + Mega Gardevoir any good?

 

[GiraGoomy]

Although I don't think this was the right way to go about making VGC any better, I'm not gonna lie and say it hasn't been really fun so far. Right now I'm really liking things such as Shuca Dialga, LO Taunt Yveltal and Mega-Gengar. I think that the Kyurem's also show a lot of potential. Giratina-O also happens to just wall a lot of things which is really neat. One mon I don't really like so far is Primal-Kyogre. I'm not why but I just feel it's not that great on its own. I'm surprisingly not sure about Pdon (and I feel everyone will be running 100 things to beat Rayquaza), however I'm pretty sure it won't take too long to see how good these two will most probably be. Really interesting to read all of your thoughts so far and will be really interesting to see what happens with the meta over the next couple weeks.

 

[SlashingScizors]

I have actually found mega ray to be underwhelming but I guess it is just how you build the team. Weather is definately prominent but if it becomes to overwhelming for standard build it will be adapted to very quickly. Those legendaries are "events" meaning not everyone has access to them but I felt they just slided Deoxys in there because in doubles that would be over centralizing.

Yeah,I agree with Deoxys being too good.

 

[Take Azelfie]

I like that Kyurem and Zygarde are on the Ubers list - they could easily become the least used Pokémon in the competition.

Also, is Xerneas + Mega Gardevoir any good?

Normal Kyurem or Kygarde no
White Kyurem yes

Although I don't think this was the right way to go about making VGC any better, I'm not gonna lie and say it hasn't been really fun so far. Right now I'm really liking things such as Shuca Dialga, LO Taunt Yveltal and Mega-Gengar. I think that the Kyurem's also show a lot of potential. Giratina-O also happens to just wall a lot of things which is really neat. One mon I don't really like so far is Primal-Kyogre. I'm not why but I just feel it's not that great on its own. I'm surprisingly not sure about Pdon (and I feel everyone will be running 100 things to beat Rayquaza), however I'm pretty sure it won't take too long to see how good these two will most probably be. Really interesting to read all of your thoughts so far and will be really interesting to see what happens with the meta over the next couple weeks.

HELP ME WITH MY POGRE PROBLEM!!! HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH IIT MY TEAM GETS 4-0 BY IT!!! ;-;

 

[Feliciano]

I admit, my first reaction was something along the lines of "well, there goes the f*cking neighborhood."

Lucky I still have that shiny Rayquaza event to pick up. SRing for a good one was always going to be a massive pain in the ass, so the difference in now having to SR for a flawless one is fairly minimal. Not sure what to do about getting my hands on Groudon, though. I can see Giratina having a lot of potential just to screw with Mega Ray, but goddamn if this isn't going to be my one opportunity to use sun and actually have it be effective. To be sure, I don't think anyone was expecting this much of a shakeup, but once the initial shock wears off, I'm sure that people will find ways to play around with and best work within it.

 

[Melon Vodka]

argh, I have in mind to start build 4 different teams but I don't know the meta yet.

My ideas are:
Maxie's team: Trick Room with Dialga and Primal don with mega kanga as support for setting the room.
Zinnia's team: heavy bird spam with physical Rayquaza and special mence, obviously i have to think to others temmate
Lysandre's team: helping hand Clefable + Dazzling gleam xerneas
Then i wanna build on kyogre but now i have not idea for it.

anyway scarf kyurem-w is a good rayquaza killer, even if I don't think scarfRem is so good in general.

 

[Harald Glööökler]

Good. Deoxys is still banned. I wouldnt know what to do against this monster.:D

 

[Pyritie]

If anyone's managed to catch any perfect legendaries yet, I can help clone and spread them around.

 

[Derivatives]

Me when i heard Mega Ray was unbanned
"OH MY GOD GAMEFREAK WHAT THE FUCK"
Me after playing a little bit
"what the fuck is a mega ray lol"

I dont even like mega ray, it's not really even that good. My first team that I built for this meta which is actually like the coolest team I've ever used in mons (it just plays so well OML) has so far 0 ways that I know of to really lose to Mega Rayquaza and Mega Salamence just seems sooooo much better imo. The only real difference is that Mega Salamence doesn't lose to Mega Salamence 100% of the time whereas Mega Ray usually loses to them every time. Mega Ray also takes up one of the dropped ubers slots while Mega Mence doesn't, and I suppose Mega Ray hits harder with Life Orb/avoids the first Will-o-wisp from Sableye while Mega Mence doesn't, so it has that perk. Even then, Mega Mence has a cooler movepool and a higher speed stat to take advantage of.
Some really cool mons that I think are gonna be really good are probably

Literally fucking gods, things that aren't really that bulky at all die to Dark Aura boosted Sucker Punch, which hits really really hard. Max speed Yveltal can do like
48 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 91-109 (43.9 - 52.6%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
while Dark Aura boosted Sucker Punches sit there like
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Dark Aura Primal Groudon: 68-80 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO
though I would never really do that the damage is like fucking amazing. Also that Groudon had 0 atk investment so Foul Play wasn't even doing much compared to what it could be doing (in the case of like max hp max atk adamant look here!)
48 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dark Aura Primal Groudon: 133-156 (64.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I saw this hit a +2 Xerneas with a max HP Water Spout and it did a ton dude what a god.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. +2 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 103-123 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah yeah I talked some shit at the start but SD+ESpeed can really tear shit up if it's supported right. Note if it's supported right because it really does take a lot of support to not lose to something like Yveltal+Hitmontop right from the start or something because Tailwind+Foul Play is the bubonic plague (btw since Mence has a higher defense this is another perk of Mence>Mega Ray :^)
I would like to end this by saying Yveltal is literally a god.