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I'd like to make a request for a funny team I've been trying out. I've been running a Safeguard/Swagger Meowstic centerpiece team with mixed results and it's pretty cool to use on the low to mid ladder. Basically wanna see how to improve upon it.
I will provide the Meowstic and the two restricted mon sets I've been working with.
CURRENT CORE
Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Spd
Brave Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Substitute
- Protect
I make my Groudon level 49 to make sure it wins all the clashing weather wars with Kyogre unless another Kyo player brings the same thing to the table. Fire Punch and Precipice Blades are the generic STAB and Substitute is there for the predicted switches and being able to capitalize off them. More to be explained with Meowstic.
Kyurem-White in my opinion is a decent anti-meta Pokémon in being able to nail most of the viable supports, such as MegaMence, Thundurus, Crobat, and Talonflame. Everything except Blizzard is generic STAB and coverage respectively and Blizzard will be once more explained on Meowstic
Meowstic (M) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Calm Nature
- Gravity
- Safeguard
- Swagger
- Trick Room
One of my favorite troll mons particularly of last year's VGC. Basically this guy plus Groudon can both make and break games. Trick Room gives me the option to outrun Tailwind and other fast mons, while being able to move ahead of most other threats. Safeguard + Swagger is a very potent combo, especially with Primal Groudon. Very few things can live a +2 Precipice Blades or Fire Punch under the sun. This thing has been EV'ed to favor bulk and a Mental Herb over carrying a Sash to deter opposing Prankster Taunts. It can live through pretty much anything except an Adamant Kangaskhan's Double Edge (which isn't too common to being with).
It's a cool core, but I know it can be improved on. The problem is I don't know how.
I'd like to make a request for a funny team I've been trying out. I've been running a Safeguard/Swagger Meowstic centerpiece team with mixed results and it's pretty cool to use on the low to mid ladder. Basically wanna see how to improve upon it.
I will provide the Meowstic and the two restricted mon sets I've been working with.
CURRENT CORE
Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Spd
Brave Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Substitute
- Protect
I make my Groudon level 49 to make sure it wins all the clashing weather wars with Kyogre unless another Kyo player brings the same thing to the table. Fire Punch and Precipice Blades are the generic STAB and Substitute is there for the predicted switches and being able to capitalize off them. More to be explained with Meowstic.
Kyurem-White in my opinion is a decent anti-meta Pokémon in being able to nail most of the viable supports, such as MegaMence, Thundurus, Crobat, and Talonflame. Everything except Blizzard is generic STAB and coverage respectively and Blizzard will be once more explained on Meowstic
Meowstic (M) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Calm Nature
- Gravity
- Safeguard
- Swagger
- Trick Room
One of my favorite troll mons particularly of last year's VGC. Basically this guy plus Groudon can both make and break games. Trick Room gives me the option to outrun Tailwind and other fast mons, while being able to move ahead of most other threats. Safeguard + Swagger is a very potent combo, especially with Primal Groudon. Very few things can live a +2 Precipice Blades or Fire Punch under the sun. This thing has been EV'ed to favor bulk and a Mental Herb over carrying a Sash to deter opposing Prankster Taunts. It can live through pretty much anything except an Adamant Kangaskhan's Double Edge (which isn't too common to being with).
It's a cool core, but I know it can be improved on. The problem is I don't know how.
Hey man
Great core, it's something i've been using myself and is definitely really fun to use. I wrote about this core in a recent RMT of mine, which you can access here. Feel free to use the mons and sets i used and to make your own improvements :)
So for starters, here's something to refine: Kyurem-W
This spread will just allow scarf kyurem-w to outspeed max speed base 130's, which i think you may have been trying to do with your previous spread. This allows it to hit stuff like crobat and mega gengar without having to take recoil beforehand.
So here are my suggestions for the roles of pokemon after your core:
Slot 4. Mega - Kangaskhan/Gengar are two exemplar megas here, the former allowing TR to be set up against hard matchups e.g taunt users (bar crobat etc) and the latter benefiting from gravity support with moves like hypnosis etc
Slots 5-6. Support - Speed Control/Set-up Support/Intimidate/Status/Fast Mode/Top 4 Check etc. These spots are free for whatever the team needs. Examples: Whimsicott: Forms a gravity-benefiting duo with gengar (disable/encore + grass whistle etc); Liligant: Chlorophyll assisted After You with groudon forms an effective fast mode out of TR (will synergise well with all fast/slow groudon sets); Smeargle: Slow Dark Void with TR/gravity support is terrifying late game, can also Transform into groudon/kyurem for a late-game sweep (can also provide free turns for a TR set up with follow me/fake out support)
So there are a couple of different options you could use for these slots, but i would recommend using the following with your current core:
Overview
This set will allow you to lead with meowstic against tricky opposition, such as smeargle/xerneas and have a favourable matchup that meowstic/kyurem-w wouldn't necessarily give. Having fake out support alongside meowstic's mental herb allows you to minimise the damage done to meowstic as well as preventing it from being taunted so that it can set up for the groudon switch in with gravity, trick room and safeguard etc. Kangaskhan can also benefit from the safeguard/swagger combo, which makes it a fantastic lead option all round. EV Spread:
- Outspeeds smeargle in non mega form (i.e you can stay non mega first turn to guarantee a fake out onto max speed sash smeargle)
- Survives a low kick from jolly kangaskhan
- Adamant nature allows it to function well inside and outside of TR
Support #1 -> Smeargle (SalaMenace/Eakes' set)
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 16 Spe
- Dark Void
- Fake Out / Tailwind
- Wide Guard
- Transform
Overview
Although the support roles are really flexible, i would really recommend smeargle in this team. It offers a devastating end-game with its support moves:
Dark Void... is dark void. Not much to be said here, but under gravity it can be absolutely devastating with for example groudon as a partner
Fake Out can provide free turns for its partner, which can be vital for either sweeping or setting up substitutes etc
Wide Guard is a fantastic support move for groudon, allowing it to avoid dazzling gleams, water spouts, precipice blades etc, again, providing free turns
Transform is a great late game move, which allows you to clean up as a pair of groudons (which i would recommend to always keep in the back unless extremely necessary which is very unlikely) or even to transform into the opponent when necessary
EV Spread:
- Outspeeds min speed cresselia in TR
- Outspeeds primals in tailwind
- Optimised bulk for stuff like kangaskhan
- Own Tempo over moody because moody can increase speed whilst inside TR, which is pretty bad, although you could potentially risk running it, although it's not advised
Other Options:
Lilligant - provides after you support for groudon, boosted by its ability chlorophyll in sun
Support #2 -> Anything out of the following etc
Talonflame - Tailwind support + groudon check + good xerneas matchup Machamp - Salamenace/Eakes used this, it supplies wide guard/quick guard/confusion support and benefits from swagger Ferrothorn - Provides a check to xerneas/kyogre which is invaluable support for your team, also good in TR
Sample Sets:
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard
The EVs allow talonflame to survive a brave bird from opposing talonflame and OHKO it back with its own brave bird. The loss in speed this creates means that you will win the matchup against opposing talonflame regardless if under TR. The speed EVs will also allow you to outspeed max speed mega kangaskhan, as to avoid sucker punches, and to be able to quick guard against fake outs from kangaskhan. The HP EVs will allow you to reach a 'life orb number' (10n-1) of 159, which minimises recoil.
Simple EVs, this is SalaMenace/Eakes' set, which as described can support groudon well with its support moves
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers / Expert Belt
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Protect
Survives 3 water spouts from kyogre, leftovers is better for stalling whilst expert belt allows you to OHKO most xerneas/kyogre. Gyro ball will OHKO 4 HP xerneas regardless of item once it has used geomancy
Other options around this gravity framework:
[Importable]
These are the pokemon that TheSaxLad used to top cut dublin regionals so since i didn't know the exact moves etc, i gave them all my recommended spreads. Feel free to ask for the benchmarks, and to make improvements
Hey man, love your choice of core.
Looking over the general framework of most ho-oh/kyogre teams*, it looks as though you could do with the following changes. I'll also include some sample EV spreads/sets (for your own mons as well) as i go.
*General Framework for Ho-Oh / Primal Kyogre Teams
Contributed by Steven Stone
1. Primal Kyogre
2. Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh acts as a Xerneas check, Special Primal Groudon counter and Bulky Grass-type check, which is specially appreciated by Primal Kyogre. If you want to, you can also run Tailwind on it so Ho-Oh performs as a Tailwind setter as well, and given its bulk it's easier to set up a Tailwind with it.
3. Physical Primal Groudon check. Special Primal Groudon variants are really easy to beat with this duo, not so much for those physical variants carrying a Rock-type move. Pokemon such as Landorus-T and Mega Salamence perform extremely well on this role thanks to Intimidate, bulk, and a typing that isn't bothered by Primal Groudon's Precipice Blades.
4. Bulky Grass-type. A Primal Kyogre check is more than needed on this build as everything can be either OHKOed or 2HKOed by Primal Kyogre. However, Grass-types are preferred as they don't make the core's matchup against Ferrothorn worse than what it already is. Ferrothorn is the preferred choice due to its typing and bulk, but Amoonguss can be used as well.
5. Support / Fighting-type. This slot is pretty open for any support Pokemon you might want to add. Whimsicott, Smeargle, Togekiss, Clefairy, and Liepard can perform really well in this build, but if you like you can add a more offensive support, you should ideally add a Fighting-type capable of doing massive damage to Ferrothorn as well as hitting Kangaskhan hard in the way. This includes Pokemon such as Infernape, Mienshao, and Terrakion.
6. Mega Evolution / Support. Even if you picked Mega Salamence, this slot is usually open for a Mega Evolution. Mega Gengar, Mega Mawile and Mega Kangaskhan do pretty well in this archetype, but if you don't have a clear way of beating Smeargle usually Mega Kangaskhan is the way to go. If you have picked Mega Salamence but you don't want to have a secondary Mega Evolution, another support Pokemon might do it. An alternative speed control method can be used, but players usually opt for a Fake Out user in this slot. Taunt users are also really good, regardless if you're a fast team (against Trick Room) or a slow team (against Smeargle). Pokemon such as Thundurus, Meowstic, Raichu, Sableye, and the aforementioned Fake Out users can work in this last slot.
So, looking over your team, the first thing i notice is the lack of a check to physical primal groudon (i.e those that carry rock slide which threatens ho-oh). There are two typical candidates for this role, these being mega salamence and landorus-t.
Here are some sample sets:
I'm pretty sure you know what this does, it's really cookie-cutter, not much else necessary other than a simple EV spread and optimal attacks for the role.
Landorus-T
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band / Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 156 Atk / 92 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe EVs: 4 HP / 148 Atk / 92 Def / 12 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
- U-turn
Again, this is a relatively simple set for landorus-t, the only real outstanding thing on this set is the EV spread, which allows landorus-t to survive 3 brave birds from talonflame. Equally you could go for an assault vest, landorus, given that you don't have explosion on this set, which would take the second EV spread. This would just allow landorus-t to survive an eruption from primal groudon which is pretty cool.
HOWEVER, I wouldn't just use these in the last slot. There are a couple other things that i would definitely recommend you try out to round out your team. As the framework suggests, a bulky grass type is really needed on this sort of team to cover any weaknesses to primal kyogre, who can do a lot of damage to most mons on your team. The typical choice here is ferrothorn, as it not only stops primal kyogre, but provides a secondary check to xerneas, which is pretty cool to have alongside Ho-Oh. Amoonguss is another great option here, who can either provide a check to xerneas or a trick room check, depending on move choice (after you/clear smog), but i would say ferrothorn is the better pick for your team.
Ferrothorn
Ferrothorn @ Expert Belt / Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect
You can choose to do a couple things here. If you want to keep leftovers on Ho-Oh, then expert belt is a fun option for getting the OHKO on kyogre/xerneas. This will get the OHKO on set up xerneas regardless of item, and will survive 3 water spouts from kyogre iirc.
So, with these things in mind, here's an overview of what i've suggested so far:
Whimsicott -> Ferrothorn
Last Slot = Groudon Check (i would suggest using landorus-t, and i'll explain why)
Since you would be losing both speed control and your whimsicott/gengar combo, i would suggest a couple extra things to round out your team, whilst trying my best to keep to your theme :)
At a glance
Some extra possible changes:
Mega Gengar -> (Sash/Support) Gengar
Hitmontop -> Mega Kangaskhan
So i'll go through some extra EV spreads you could use as i go through the team
Ho-Oh
So here are some other EV spreads that i like to use on Ho-Oh: Extra Bulky
There aren't many specific defensive benchmarks for this, it capitalises on the fact that it can outspeed smeargle and that maranga berry makes facing special groudon + xerneas laughable
Really good spread for leftovers, gives Ho-Oh a leftovers number (16n+1), whilst achieving the following benchmarks. Also, sub+recover is a really annoying combination
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Rock Slide vs. 92 HP / 156 Def Ho-Oh: 164-196 (84.9 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 92 HP / 156 Def Ho-Oh: 157-187 (81.3 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Primal Kyogre
Couple of different EV spreads here:
Bulky Offensive
Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
EVs: 188 HP / 204 Def / 76 SpA / 4 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
Physical
-1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 88-106 (44.2 - 53.2%) -- 18.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Explosion vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 85-102 (42.7 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 85-102 (42.7 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 77-91 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 51-61 (25.6 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 152-179 (76.3 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 76-91 (38.1 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 87-103 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 73-87 (36.6 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 87-103 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
Special
+2 252 SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 182-216 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 144-171 (72.3 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 168-198 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 79-95 (39.6 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 46-55 (23.1 - 27.6%) -- 70.7% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 118-140 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre in Heavy Rain: 66-78 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre in Heavy Rain: 49-58 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
Fast+Bulky Offensive
Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
EVs: 204 HP / 60 Def / 84 SpA / 4 SpD / 156 Spe
Timid Nature
This is a slightly different kyogre spread that i think you may enjoy running. I think it was from a generation showdown post a while back, but is still a great spread that hits some key benchmarks (also it's one of my favourite primal kyogre spreads):
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 204 HP / 60 Def Primal Kyogre: 173-204 (86 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 204 HP / 60 Def Primal Kyogre: 168-200 (83.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 204 HP / 60 Def Primal Kyogre: 164-194 (81.5 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 204 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 159-187 (79.1 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Outspeeds 252 Spe neutral nature base 90 mons, e.g groudon
Pretty simple set, sludge bomb is here since both landorus-t and ho-oh can check steels and it can deal with xerneas well. Taunt for smeargle and icy wind to make up for the loss of tailwind. Icy wind is a great move to lead with kangaskhan with, as it not only slows down the opponent in conjunction with fake out support, but bypasses follow me, so it can help check xerneas more easily.
This is a fairly standard kangaskhan spread. This survives a low kick from opposing jolly kangaskhan, with the rest in attack and speed. Kangaskhan is a much viable option than hitmontop would be in this slot, as hitmontop provides little to no offensive presence on the field, and since we already have landorus-t providing intimidate and checking groudon, and ferrothorn checking xerneas/kyogre, there isn't much need for wide guard support on the team. Kangaskhan provides fighting type coverage as well as invaluable offensive presence as well as a faster fake out. Plus it has inner focus which pretty much guarantees that you get a fake out off vs opposing fake out users.
I like that Palkia's sheer power is being explored here. It's something that hasn't really seen much use at all and a lot of people use TR which kinda wastes Palkia's amazing 100 base Speed. Flamethrower is fine as far as I'm concerned
Anyways I'll just continue on from the above suggestions and see where the problems lie, as well as a few questions. The teams look fine, but some concerns:
Both teams struggle against the combo of Yveltal + Thundurus.
Both teams can also struggle with Trick Room + Groudon and it depends on how much you can juggle Rain and Intimidate to reduce its threat level. However, you have little to prevent Cresselia/Bronzong/Dialga from setting up. Perhaps Amoonguss somewhere wouldn't be a bad idea.
Ferrothorn can be an issue, but that's a given for most Kyogre based teams.
Now then:
When creating a team, I like to think of ways to beat Big 6, and that starts from the leads. You've mentioned Klefki was a Smeargle counter, but what about Klefki's partner? How do you plan to lead against Smeargle + Groudon? Do you have Lum on Klefki to take on the combined Fake Out + Dark Void from Khan + Smeargle?
I could put Lum on Klefki; usually run Sitrus and bait Fake Out with an offensive partner (probably Palkia). I could also run a fast Fake Out or Quick Guard. Sorry for the late reply; just got enough materials and motivation to bother with VGC again xd
Is Yveltal + Thundy a thing, and what exactly stops Klefki + Kyogre from clicking Safeguard + Icy Wind -> Origin Pulse? Even if I get Taunted, Icy Wind + Origin Pulse (plus a Dark Aura boosted Foul Play from Klefki) isn't a bad trade. But if I don't have that exact pair out yes it's messy.
Anyway, so far, we're looking like a general agreement on MegaGross, Palkia, Kyogre, and AV Landog. Klefki is a "probably". I was thinking Mega Salamence could work in place of Landog, for less EQ spamming (I don't know about everyone else, but getting a flawless Timid Telepathy Palkia is a bit difficult for those of us in countries that sleep), more Speed, and a better answer to M-Ray. Xern eats me without Mega Metagross though; non mega needs Bullet Punch to get the KO.
Thundurus over Klefki gives me an EQ immune, Thunder, Taunt for TR, and Role Play are all possible. Ice / Rock weaknesses handled by Metagross. Helps dent other Kyogre, and equally useless vs Groudon \0/
Whimsicott loses T-wave, which is sad, but gives me tailwind, Encore (fuck your TR), and Safeguard as options. Sounds appealing so far.
I have 0 shame running this.
Avoids the OHKO from 252 Modest LO Hydreigon's Earth power; also eats Dialga / Reshiram / etc.
252+ SpA Dialga Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Klefki: 120-142 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And wtf would Talonflame run? Max Atk + Speed, Sash?
I could put Lum on Klefki; usually run Sitrus and bait Fake Out with an offensive partner (probably Palkia). I could also run a fast Fake Out or Quick Guard. Sorry for the late reply; just got enough materials and motivation to bother with VGC again xd
Given Klefki's potential to Prankster Safeguard it'd be likely for Kangaskhan to Fake Out that slot. Would not be an issue if your Klefki has Crafty Shield, although it won't give you sustained protection (and Smeargle's a better user of it anyways).
Klefki + Palkia actually loses pretty hard to Smeargle + Xerneas. If you spend a turn trying to set up Safeguard, Xerneas will gladly set up Geomancy while Palkia brings Smeargle to Sash. It can just keep redirecting your moves until it dies (note that Klefki will go before Palkia if it uses a status move, and after if it uses an attacking move - this can cause issues trying to land the status move on Xerneas. Then Talonflame takes its space, blocking Thunder Wave from Klefki with Quick Guard and giving even more chances for Xerneas to sweep. Or Groudon comes in, Xerneas Protects and Klefki gets forced out (idk exactly what 4 you're bringing into big 6 but you may have issues taking PBlades).
Is Yveltal + Thundy a thing, and what exactly stops Klefki + Kyogre from clicking Safeguard + Icy Wind -> Origin Pulse? Even if I get Taunted, Icy Wind + Origin Pulse (plus a Dark Aura boosted Foul Play from Klefki) isn't a bad trade. But if I don't have that exact pair out yes it's messy.
Thunderbolt + Snarl can definitely cause issues to that combo, and can even put Kyogre into Sucker Punch kill range. Either way, -1 Origin Pulse + Icy Wind won't KO Yveltal, so it has some flexibility with how it wants to cause problems. This is compounded by the fact that Groudon is also a common partner to Yveltal, which makes the Klefki + Kyogre combo a gamble.
Thunderbolt + Foul Play can sometimes just outright KO Kyogre.
Liepard could definitely work. Its quite a good troublesome Pokemon. Slap a sash on it, because it obviously wont survive anything from Xerneas. Oh yeah. It can disrupt Xerneas too.
You should probably consider running something more to check primal kyogre since you only have ferrothorn so far to counter it.
Thundurus is the typical candidate here, as it can give coverage against both kyogre and xerneas, and it works very well with landorus-t. Double genies is also a pretty good lead vs double primal teams, and is just a really good combination overall.
As for liepard, it is still pretty solid but i feel it is outclassed by thundurus
Can I get a team with these two? I am not too good at spread optimization but I would like a DD variant of Ray and a SpAttacker variant for Mence. I feel that any and all flying STAB is amazing in this meta because there aren't many resist outside of Thundurus and Steel-types which can be easily countered by a legend like PDon or Lando.
Can I get a team with these two? I am not too good at spread optimization but I would like a DD variant of Ray and a SpAttacker variant for Mence. I feel that any and all flying STAB is amazing in this meta because there aren't many resist outside of Thundurus and Steel-types which can be easily countered by a legend like PDon or Lando.
Hey man, those two mons do indeed synergise really well, salamence allows rayquaza to have a much easier time vs opposing rayquaza which is pretty cool.
Right, onto partners:
If you want a set up rayquaza, then redirection is key. Unfortunately, after looking over some options, this slot would restrict your matchup vs big 6, as in most of my team variations, crobat fills a better or more optimal role than a redirector (e.g togekiss) would. This would just mean switching out DD ray for a non set-up variant, up to you though.
Here is what i came up with:
/
So this is how i made the team:
Kyogre was added to the core first, since it is generally an awesome partner for rayquaza, and with ferrothorn, can handle most big 6 teams if played and conserved well if your early game is strong enough. This means the team needed a solid lead vs big 6 teams, which i'll move onto later
A Xerneas check was needed, so ferrothorn was added, being able to OHKO most geomancy xerneas with gyro ball. This also helps against opposing rayogre teams etc
Now salamence's mode needed a suitable lead partner. Thundurus was in my eyes the typical candidate, allowing salamence to have an easier time against opposing primal kyogre, which kinda allows the two to take on teams like double primal and rayogre teams etc which is pretty cool. I think in general, thundurus and salamence have the potential to be the new double genies, but i may be wrong.
So lastly, I knew togekiss was essential for DD rayquaza's success, but crobat gave the team an extra advantage against big 6 teams with haze, and also had great lead synergy with rayquaza, allowing it to recover its depleted stats from DA/overheat etc. Without it, the team is kinda stuck against opposing xerneas, with only ferrothorn and maybe thundurus to handle it. Up to you though, togekiss has got its perks
Hey man, those two mons do indeed synergise really well, salamence allows rayquaza to have a much easier time vs opposing rayquaza which is pretty cool.
Right, onto partners:
If you want a set up rayquaza, then redirection is key. Unfortunately, after looking over some options, this slot would restrict your matchup vs big 6, as in most of my team variations, crobat fills a better or more optimal role than a redirector (e.g togekiss) would. This would just mean switching out DD ray for a non set-up variant, up to you though.
Here is what i came up with:
/
So this is how i made the team:
Kyogre was added to the core first, since it is generally an awesome partner for rayquaza, and with ferrothorn, can handle most big 6 teams if played and conserved well if your early game is strong enough. This means the team needed a solid lead vs big 6 teams, which i'll move onto later
A Xerneas check was needed, so ferrothorn was added, being able to OHKO most geomancy xerneas with gyro ball. This also helps against opposing rayogre teams etc
Now salamence's mode needed a suitable lead partner. Thundurus was in my eyes the typical candidate, allowing salamence to have an easier time against opposing primal kyogre, which kinda allows the two to take on teams like double primal and rayogre teams etc which is pretty cool. I think in general, thundurus and salamence have the potential to be the new double genies, but i may be wrong.
So lastly, I knew togekiss was essential for DD rayquaza's success, but crobat gave the team an extra advantage against big 6 teams with haze, and also had great lead synergy with rayquaza, allowing it to recover its depleted stats from DA/overheat etc. Without it, the team is kinda stuck against opposing xerneas, with only ferrothorn and maybe thundurus to handle it. Up to you though, togekiss has got its perks
Dammit youre right
EDIT: That i think is the biggest weakness of the core. Talonflame over crobat will help, also kangaskhan over salamence will help out a lot. Ferrothorn can sometimes deal with scarf variants and mostly when under rain. Kyogre can also do some work against kyurem, but it's definitely a difficult one
Given Klefki's potential to Prankster Safeguard it'd be likely for Kangaskhan to Fake Out that slot. Would not be an issue if your Klefki has Crafty Shield, although it won't give you sustained protection (and Smeargle's a better user of it anyways).
Klefki + Palkia actually loses pretty hard to Smeargle + Xerneas. If you spend a turn trying to set up Safeguard, Xerneas will gladly set up Geomancy while Palkia brings Smeargle to Sash. It can just keep redirecting your moves until it dies (note that Klefki will go before Palkia if it uses a status move, and after if it uses an attacking move - this can cause issues trying to land the status move on Xerneas. Then Talonflame takes its space, blocking Thunder Wave from Klefki with Quick Guard and giving even more chances for Xerneas to sweep. Or Groudon comes in, Xerneas Protects and Klefki gets forced out (idk exactly what 4 you're bringing into big 6 but you may have issues taking PBlades).
Thundurus is a very common partner to Yveltal.
Thunderbolt + Snarl can definitely cause issues to that combo, and can even put Kyogre into Sucker Punch kill range. Either way, -1 Origin Pulse + Icy Wind won't KO Yveltal, so it has some flexibility with how it wants to cause problems. This is compounded by the fact that Groudon is also a common partner to Yveltal, which makes the Klefki + Kyogre combo a gamble.
Thunderbolt + Foul Play can sometimes just outright KO Kyogre.
0- Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 188 HP / 204 Def Primal Kyogre: 117-138 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 102-120 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's not a "sometimes" its a "nope, just fucked". Kyogre clearly needed +50 Atk upon Primal :/
-1 76+ SpA Primal Kyogre Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 108-128 (53.7 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That hurts though.
Decided on Whimsicott over Klefki; type wise it works a bit better, Encore gives me a way to shut down TR and Xerneas, Safeguard actually outspeeds Thundy, and Tailwind offers Speed support. Could run Taunt too if I want.
Locking Yveltal into Sucker Punch could be good too?
I'm not sure how to kill Yveltal + Thundy then, any ideas? I would imagine a strong Ice, Rock, or Fairy move would do it. Could also run Ice Beam over Icy Wind.
PBlades yeah, I don't have much in the way of Ground resists. Uber slots are eaten, which means I'm down to basically Landog (which I have), Mega Mence, Talonflame (Rock Slide, does nothing back to Groudon), Crobat (Fire Punch / Overheat), and... what, Bronzong (Fire move)? Fire + Rock + Ground is nearly unresisted and Flygon sucks.
I dunno man. Palkia + Kyogre + Metagross sounded neat but it sounds like it'll fall apart in 8 matches with all this.
Hello, I have been playing for little time but am really interested in making a Mega Absol centric team. I've tried some teams with SpAt Mega Absol, mixed and normal attacking one. The most success I've got was when I could double fake tears and attack with SpAt Absol and the best case scenario for Attacking Absol is when I've been able to get swords dance up and sweep, which is not that common.
I've tried Kyogre to deal with Groudon, Groudon for synergy with flamethrower or fire blast, Yveltal for extra punch in sucker punch-Knock off and Yveltal for strong Play roughs. As supporting mons I've used sableye because of ghost typing and easy switching against kang plus Quash access. Liepard has been useful for the fake tears, encore and fake out allowing me to hit some priority targets sometimes for the OHKO, but when using liepard the front line is a little too frail. Golurk has been a good choice for spread coverage, and Ferrothorn well, it is a solid pokemon.
Absol is specially good at dealing with any kind of mewtwo, some dragons like palkia or garchomp, when it is SpAt it can pretty much delete ferrothorn and Garchomp with no trouble whatsoever.
Frumpy-Rumpy (Jumpluff) @ BrightPowder
Ability: Leaf Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 12 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rage Powder
- Sleep Powder
- Encore
- U-turn
Guardian (Groudon) @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
Level: 50
EVs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Protect
Gallant (Xerneas) @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
Level: 50
EVs: 172 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 52 Spe
Modest Nature
- Geomancy
- Dazzling Gleam
- Moonblast
- Protect
Rocinante (Ferrothorn) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Protect
Golem (Golurk) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Punch
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
I actually only care about having Absol in the team to a good degree of success. Hopefully someone will be able to help me set a good strategy.
Best,
Dliger :)
P.S. by the way, these are in no way complete teams but failed experiments that lack consistency to illustrate what I've tried. After reading some posts in the thread I wanted to clear that up.
Sorry about that
If you want some gimmicks with mega absol, then pm me and i can send you some non-serious, fun strategies for low ladder etc. Sorry we couldn't help you out this time, and best of luck!
Hey man :)
Unfortunately your request goes against this rule mentioned in the OP:
Sorry about that
If you want some gimmicks with mega absol, then pm me and i can send you some non-serious, fun strategies for low ladder etc. Sorry we couldn't help you out this time, and best of luck!
Hey man, those two mons do indeed synergise really well, salamence allows rayquaza to have a much easier time vs opposing rayquaza which is pretty cool.
Right, onto partners:
If you want a set up rayquaza, then redirection is key. Unfortunately, after looking over some options, this slot would restrict your matchup vs big 6, as in most of my team variations, crobat fills a better or more optimal role than a redirector (e.g togekiss) would. This would just mean switching out DD ray for a non set-up variant, up to you though.
Here is what i came up with:
/
So this is how i made the team:
Kyogre was added to the core first, since it is generally an awesome partner for rayquaza, and with ferrothorn, can handle most big 6 teams if played and conserved well if your early game is strong enough. This means the team needed a solid lead vs big 6 teams, which i'll move onto later
A Xerneas check was needed, so ferrothorn was added, being able to OHKO most geomancy xerneas with gyro ball. This also helps against opposing rayogre teams etc
Now salamence's mode needed a suitable lead partner. Thundurus was in my eyes the typical candidate, allowing salamence to have an easier time against opposing primal kyogre, which kinda allows the two to take on teams like double primal and rayogre teams etc which is pretty cool. I think in general, thundurus and salamence have the potential to be the new double genies, but i may be wrong.
So lastly, I knew togekiss was essential for DD rayquaza's success, but crobat gave the team an extra advantage against big 6 teams with haze, and also had great lead synergy with rayquaza, allowing it to recover its depleted stats from DA/overheat etc. Without it, the team is kinda stuck against opposing xerneas, with only ferrothorn and maybe thundurus to handle it. Up to you though, togekiss has got its perks
Hey I have been using the second team a lot with Talonflame but I would like to know what the SpD EVs on Ferrothorn and spread on POgre accomplish.
Also thanks again
Hey I have been using the second team a lot with Talonflame but I would like to know what the SpD EVs on Ferrothorn and spread on POgre accomplish.
Also thanks again
So Kyogre. I think it was from a generation showdown post a while back, but is still a great spread that hits some key benchmarks (also it's one of my favourite primal kyogre spreads):
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 204 HP / 60 Def Primal Kyogre: 173-204 (86 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 204 HP / 60 Def Primal Kyogre: 168-200 (83.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 204 HP / 60 Def Primal Kyogre: 164-194 (81.5 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 204 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 159-187 (79.1 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Outspeeds 252 Spe neutral nature base 90 mons, e.g groudon
Outspeeds non-scarf Smeargle
Ferrothorn will survive 3 water spouts from (i think modest) primal kyogre, and can OHKO a set up xerneas, pretty simple stuff but very effective.
So Kyogre. I think it was from a generation showdown post a while back, but is still a great spread that hits some key benchmarks (also it's one of my favourite primal kyogre spreads):
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 204 HP / 60 Def Primal Kyogre: 173-204 (86 - 101.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 204 HP / 60 Def Primal Kyogre: 168-200 (83.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 204 HP / 60 Def Primal Kyogre: 164-194 (81.5 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 204 HP / 4 SpD Primal Kyogre: 159-187 (79.1 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Outspeeds 252 Spe neutral nature base 90 mons, e.g groudon
Outspeeds non-scarf Smeargle
Ferrothorn will survive 3 water spouts from (i think modest) primal kyogre, and can OHKO a set up xerneas, pretty simple stuff but very effective.
Really good spread for leftovers, gives Ho-Oh a leftovers number (16n+1), whilst achieving the following benchmarks. Also, sub+recover is a really annoying combination
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Rock Slide vs. 92 HP / 156 Def Ho-Oh: 164-196 (84.9 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 92 HP / 156 Def Ho-Oh: 157-187 (81.3 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Ho-Oh: 169-200 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 92 HP / 156 Def Ho-Oh: 157-187 (81.3 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Ho-Oh: 122-146 (57.2 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 92 HP / 44+ SpD Ho-Oh: 113-134 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You even have more atack.
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Ho-Oh: 180-212 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Here's the logic behind the team: Primal Groudon and Yveltal have good type synergy with one another, and are also just offensive monsters. I thought I'd make Groudon slow and bulky as a way to counter TR teams, but I don't know if just giving it some speed would be better. I was thinking about making Yveltal Timid, but I'm not really sure. Kangaskhan is another powerful offensive threat, with access to great priority moves like Fake Out and Sucker Punch; the latter being helped by Dark Aura. I was thinking of running Drain Punch over Low Kick for extra longevity, but the greater damage from Low Kick is probably better, right? Scrappy over Inner Focus to flinch those Ghost types turn one. Crobat is for utility and speed control, obviously. Copied the EVs from the Sets for 2016 thread. Outspeeds everything it needs to, while keeping some bulk. Lum for Swagger and Scarf Dark Void Smeargle. Kanga's Fake Out can deal with opposing Prankster mons, so I thought Lum would be more useful than Mental Herb.
I was thinking of adding either a Ferrothorn or an Aegislash to this team, both are fairy resists, and both can potentially be anti-TR. Leaning more towards Ferrothorn, as it can beat Kyogre. No idea about the last mon.
Anyway, let me know what you think.
