Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings

The VGC viability ranking lists are meant to be a reflection of both how good the Pokemon is and the success of the Pokemon in the irl VGC metagame. Vivi has no success in the metagame - I don't recall ever seeing it in a top cut, and its measly 287 CP total post Incineroar reflects that.

Many viable irl teams are also equipped to handle Vivi without trying to. Vivi fails easily to any two Pokemon faster than it. Teams without two Pokemon faster than it often still have ways to deal with it, for example, slower CHALK teams with only Scard Lando-T outspeeding it still have bulky AV Kartana who can finish it off without caring for Sleep Powder / Rage Powder (and I'd happily let Lando-T sleep if it means KOing a Pokemon - Lando-T can still Intimidate stuff). On that note, in general, a Pokemon isn't worth if it only thing it does is sac itself to sleep something, and that is often what Vivi will at best acheive.

With your replays:
1st one: Your opponent did not have a good team in general. Besides having issues with Vivi, he's weak to fast strong threats in general as he seems to lack speed control on a relatively slow team. He's also way too Lando-T weak.

2nd one. Vivi fainted in order to sleep Snorlax. Didn't change the outcome of the match. On the other hand, if you brought your Cress instead of Vivi, you would have been more prepared for that MBlaz

3rd one. Your opponent forgot about Shield Dust. Also considering that his Zard Y is not max speed, he should have really brought his Scarf Lando-T as a lead. It's good against your team in general and is a fairly safe lead against your team.




Accelgor is commmonly paired with Tapu Lele, holding a Pyschic Seed to activate its Unburden. It is an extremely fast support with useful support moves, including Encore, Acid Spray, Struggle Bug and Final Gambit. You also can't dick it with priority thanks to Psychic Terrain.

There were also just as many Accelgor in top 32 for NA than non-Mega Tyranitar (0).
Well said. Anything vivillion can do, other support Pokemon do it better.
 

Eisenherz

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The VGC viability ranking lists are meant to be a reflection of both how good the Pokemon is and the success of the Pokemon in the irl VGC metagame. Vivi has no success in the metagame - I don't recall ever seeing it in a top cut, and its measly 287 CP total post Incineroar reflects that.
I just want to point out that Vivillon did top cut the Costa Mesa regs, it got to the finals:



There was another Vivillon user in that tournament (with a completely different set and team, they've been shown on stream) who didn't top cut.

Also...

3rd one. Your opponent forgot about Shield Dust. Also considering that his Zard Y is not max speed, he should have really brought his Scarf Lando-T as a lead. It's good against your team in general and is a fairly safe lead against your team.
To be fair, considering Vivillon gets Friend Guard and Compound Eyes for that 97% accurate Sleep Powder, I don't think anyone would expect Shield Dust Vivillon. Which highlights a true strong point of Vivillon, it has 3 useful abilities, and it's a guessing game as to what your opponent is running (the one in Costa Mesa finals was Friend Guard, while the other guy in that tournament had Compound Eyes).

Powder is also a nice move option against Charizard Y and Incineroar, and creates a lot of mind games in Bo3. Its speed tier is meh as mentioned, but it is a Tailwind setter.

I don't have a strong opinion on whether it should be ranked or not since it would be bottom-tier anyway, but I do feel it's been a bit too carelessly dismissed (granted, the arguments in its favor so far haven't been that convincing...).
 
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Darkmalice

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I just want to point out that Vivillon did top cut the Costa Mesa regs, it got to the finals:



There was another Vivillon user in that tournament (with a completely different set and team, they've been shown on stream) who didn't top cut.

Also...



To be fair, considering Vivillon gets Friend Guard and Compound Eyes for that 97% accurate Sleep Powder, I don't think anyone would expect Shield Dust Vivillon. Which highlights a true strong point of Vivillon, it has 3 useful abilities, and it's a guessing game as to what your opponent is running (the one in Costa Mesa finals was Friend Guard, while the other guy in that tournament had Compound Eyes).

Powder is also a nice move option against Charizard Y and Incineroar, and creates a lot of mind games in Bo3. Its speed tier is meh as mentioned, but it is a Tailwind setter.

I don't have a strong opinion on whether it should be ranked or not since it would be bottom-tier anyway, but I do feel it's been a bit too carelessly dismissed (granted, the arguments in its favor so far haven't been that convincing...).
Your raise good points. Out of curiosity, do you know the sets for each of those Vivillons?

My Shield Dust comment was harsh as I forgot of Vivillon's other abilities; on reflection I would agree that Compound Eyes and Friend Guard are generally better abilities.

There is 4MSS though, since it wants Tailwind, Sleep Powder, Rage Powder, Protect to block Fake Out and Hurricane. Powder is very difficult to find room for. It's still difficult to warrant over Amoonguss who is more consistent with Rage Powder + Sleep + Protect + STAB, and Smeargle who has more movepool options. Both also have a 100% accuracy move without an ability boosting it.

I am still against it being ranked, but I would not veto it being in D.
 
On the other hand, Amoonguss has abysmal speed and glaring weaknesses to both Lando-T and Incineroar. I suppose Vivillion does too, but they are less obvious, as Lando would need to run SE to OHKO
 

Eisenherz

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Your raise good points. Out of curiosity, do you know the sets for each of those Vivillons?

My Shield Dust comment was harsh as I forgot of Vivillon's other abilities; on reflection I would agree that Compound Eyes and Friend Guard are generally better abilities.

There is 4MSS though, since it wants Tailwind, Sleep Powder, Rage Powder, Protect to block Fake Out and Hurricane. Powder is very difficult to find room for. It's still difficult to warrant over Amoonguss who is more consistent with Rage Powder + Sleep + Protect + STAB, and Smeargle who has more movepool options. Both also have a 100% accuracy move without an ability boosting it.

I am still against it being ranked, but I would not veto it being in D.
Michael Groshan's Vivillon was Rage Powder / Powder / Endeavor / Protect with 0 IVs in HP. From the 3 matches (6 games in total) that were streamed featuring him, he seemed to bring it about every time and use it as a "suicide lead" to ensure Trick Room goes up. With Rage Powder, Vivillon is usually guaranteed to either go down to sash or get KOd; if it goes to sash, Endeavor makes it threatening, and if it gets KOd, it's a free switch for the TR sweeper of his choice.

I think this last part shows this Vivillon's niche. Amoonguss is a much better Rage Powder user, but it tanks hits, which isn't something you want from a suicide lead. He didn't want to stick around and put things to sleep like you would do with Amoonguss, so in that sense, I think the only other Pokémon to be able to fill that niche well would be Smeargle, which can literally run the same set. But I assume Vivillon was chosen because of Friend Guard; P2 was a common TR setter next to it, and a Friend Guarded P2 has ridiculous bulk if Vivillon decides to stick around instead of Rage Powdering. So Vivillon can make sense on some teams over Amoonguss and Smeargle, though in most cases the latter 2 are probably better.

I just checked the VOD for the other Vivillon user and it happened to be Gary Qian (I guess he's the kind of player you'd totally expect would be running Vivillon lol), he was Compound Eyes with Sleep Powder / Rage Powder / Hurricane / ??? (I assume this was Protect, but he didn't Protect in front of an incoming Fake Out, so it may have been Tailwind?). This is more like a standard set one would expect.

As a Tailwind setter, Whimsicott (and even Illumise) is surely more reliable, and can also use a Sash + Endeavor option (as well a myriad more tools), but doesn't have a good sleep-inducing move, and no Rage Powder, so I can see why Vivillon could make sense, it depends what support tools one precisely needs for their team.

It definitely suffers from 4 MSS as you mention, and will always miss out on a potentially useful move, but I'd say Whimsicott has the same kind of 4 MSS, wanting Encore, Tailwind, STAB, Protect, Fake Tears, sometimes Endeavor, sometimes Beat Up... that's part of what makes it scary to face, though, because you may have to try and play around a move it doesn't even have (though that's less of an issue in Bo3).

Point in case, I think Vivillon has a small niche of its own because of its abilities and the unique combination of support moves it has. In most cases, something else will be better (Amoonguss most of the time). As pointed out earlier, a large portion of the metagame it well-equipped to deal with it, between Rock Slide and Misty/Electric terrain. I didn't have much of an opinion about ranking it yesterday, but from looking more into it now, I think it fits the description of D-rank pretty well, so I could see it there.
 
Well it seems to me Vivillon has one actual niche that nothing else does as well: a focus sashed, rage powder suicide lead to guarantee Trick Room set up. And if that’s a viable strategy, then I guess it doesn’t hurt to give it a D ranking. Even though Amoonguss largely outclasses it.

As a comparison, Arcanine is generally outclassed by Incineroar, but it has better overall bulk (without assault vest) and better speed as well as Extreme Speed and Morning Sun, which gives it a small niche that sees it actually getting used from time to time. And it has a D ranking.
 

Darkmalice

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Well it seems to me Vivillon has one actual niche that nothing else does as well: a focus sashed, rage powder suicide lead to guarantee Trick Room set up. And if that’s a viable strategy, then I guess it doesn’t hurt to give it a D ranking. Even though Amoonguss largely outclasses it.

As a comparison, Arcanine is generally outclassed by Incineroar, but it has better overall bulk (without assault vest) and better speed as well as Extreme Speed and Morning Sun, which gives it a small niche that sees it actually getting used from time to time. And it has a D ranking.
Arcanine has 90/80/80 bulk compared to Incineroar's 95/90/90, and I can't recall the last time I heard of an Arcanine with Morning Sun. Better Speed, checking some Pokemon that Fire-type check better like Kartana, Bulu and Celesteela, and some specific moves like ESpeed and also the option of Helping Hand and Close Combat. Mainly it got the rank because it did see some successes. It had won Perth Regionals and got top 8 in another team (can't remember the tournament, but it was alongside a Dragonite on a rain team). It hasn't seen success for many months. I do wonder if it's worth keeping on there, but I'm more inclined to keep it.

Given that Vivillon's had two recent successes that I'm aware of, I'm ok with it getting a D rank.

I actually would like to see Hawlucha removed. I can't recall it ever being successful in this year's VGC, both pre-Incineroar and post-Incineroar. It's only gathered 209 CP post-Incineroar, worse than every other D rank Pokemon and some Pokemon that were previously removed from the viability thread like Thundurus, Latios and non-Mega Blaziken. It tries to combine the support aspect of Drifblim with some offensive presence, but is inferior to Driflbim support-wise (worse defences, worse defence typing, and not immune to Fake Out even with Tailwind support), and doesn't have that much Atk to abuse offensively, especially after the prevalent Intimidate (in fact, at -1, it does less damage to Incineroar with HJK than +0 Incineroar deals to it with Flare Blitz).

Also, for the sake of completeness, remove Blissey. I haven't seen Blissey all year and it has 40 CP! Chansey has 385 and Eevee 384.
 
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As a comparison, Arcanine is generally outclassed by Incineroar, but it has better overall bulk (without assault vest) and better speed as well as Extreme Speed and Morning Sun, which gives it a small niche that sees it actually getting used from time to time. And it has a D ranking.
Fwiw, I think Arcanine is actually viable. I went 6-3 with it at NAIC, and I used it because it can actually switch in on Kartana, can switch in on Gardevoir, and can do a chunk to Fini with Wild Charge. Obviously it was a niche case but I do think it has a niche on some teams over incineroar.
 
My bad on the bulk of Arcanine vs Incineroar. I had remembered the stats incorrectly.
ck49: I’m not at all saying Arcanine isn’t viable. And I don’t mean to start any discussion on Arcanine. I was trying to find a precedent that would support Vivillon getting a ranking.
 

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