VoltTurn Mayhem

[M'joe'ra]

Well rumors,

I'm sorry but i think i have single handedly made stall viable while at the same time breaking your meta.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-voltturnmayhem-2011

I'm sorry ;-;

 

[canno]

I have also made a team that can stall. It needs improvements (and a better player - I'm too offensive to play stall ;___;)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-voltturnmayhem-2016

managed to get to turn 123 (replay stops at turn 120 for some reason), and could of gone farther (we were at a stalemate) if I was a true stallmans.

As of this time I've made some untested changes (Sylveon > Probopass, Kyurem > Gliscor, and Tentacruel > Scolipede) but yea stall isnt dead! :D

 

[Rumors]

Nice to see that stall still works, though I've not seen anyone abusing specs/band Giga Beam variants yet. However, it might be a bit early to say if anything is truly broken yet. It's still early, so it's possible that mons that might become dominant forces that discourage that stuff might still be undiscovered.

Though Fake Out, Regenerator, and Probopass certainly look like things to keep an eye on so far, but I'd like to wait until the meta is at least a week old before having to call any sort of quick ban, but, ideally, nothing will be on that level of broken. Same for possibly unbanning Gengar-M and Blazekin (though the former would really discourage banded Fake Out strategies).

 

[Esprite]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-voltturnmayhem-2096

Stalled the crap out of a staller. Being the king of hax, Crits helped too.
Btw, I do have analytic Beam, but with eviolite to help stall.

 

[M'joe'ra]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-voltturnmayhem-2096

Stalled the crap out of a staller. Being the king of hax, Crits helped too.
Btw, I do have analytic Beam, but with eviolite to help stall.

Had wish pass on alo, if crits wouldntve happened so much i wouldve been fine ;-;

 

[Esprite]

Yeah well, I call myself the king of hax for good reason. (Don't add mons quite yet, never played)
Seriously, I may miss a few times, but I seem to have hax both realistically, and unrealistically (what really cost you that game was the mienfoo misclick for fake out, if you had knocked off, You would have lasted much longer.)

 

[Akumeoy]

Nice to see that stall still works, though I've not seen anyone abusing specs/band Giga Beam variants yet. However, it might be a bit early to say if anything is truly broken yet. It's still early, so it's possible that mons that might become dominant forces that discourage that stuff might still be undiscovered.

Though Fake Out, Regenerator, and Probopass certainly look like things to keep an eye on so far, but I'd like to wait until the meta is at least a week old before having to call any sort of quick ban, but, ideally, nothing will be on that level of broken. Same for possibly unbanning Gengar-M and Blazekin (though the former would really discourage banded Fake Out strategies).

Oddly enough, I have seen plenty of Giga Beamers -- Pixilate users are especially adept at the latter. Of course, unless you want them to be Fake Out bait, you can't run Specs/Band on them. Sylveon with Wish/Protect/Aromatherapy/Hyper Beam is particularly hard to deal with, basically OHKOing things left and right and supporting its team. Really, Giga Impact + Hyper Beam + Four supporters seems like a valid "archetype" to me, at least until the meta adapts to it.

Dragonite is also very useful here. It gets Inner Focus to handle Fake Out, Defog for hazard control, and Extreme Speed for sanic switching. If you're confident in your hazard control, Shedinja is useful as one of the only things actually worth switching into attacks; it even gets priority and Will-O-Wisp. On the other hand, it is Shedinja, so be careful with it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-voltturnmayhem-2096

Stalled the crap out of a staller. Being the king of hax, Crits helped too.
Btw, I do have analytic Beam, but with eviolite to help stall.

Scolipede with no Speed Boost, Mienfoo when you could use Mienshao... what?

The duck is an interesting idea, though. I'll have to consider it.

 

[Esprite]

Scolipede with no Speed Boost, Mienfoo when you could use Mienshao... what?

The duck is an interesting idea, though. I'll have to consider it.

Thx for liking Aqueduct.
Scoli didn't need Speed Boost, at least for me, since it's main worry is priority.
Mienfoo is an Eviolite user, so Mienshao would have to do something completely different.

 

[FlameUser64]

Oddly enough, I have seen plenty of Giga Beamers -- Pixilate users are especially adept at the latter. Of course, unless you want them to be Fake Out bait, you can't run Specs/Band on them. Sylveon with Wish/Protect/Aromatherapy/Hyper Beam is particularly hard to deal with, basically OHKOing things left and right and supporting its team. Really, Giga Impact + Hyper Beam + Four supporters seems like a valid "archetype" to me, at least until the meta adapts to it.

Dragonite is also very useful here. It gets Inner Focus to handle Fake Out, Defog for hazard control, and Extreme Speed for sanic switching. If you're confident in your hazard control, Shedinja is useful as one of the only things actually worth switching into attacks; it even gets priority and Will-O-Wisp. On the other hand, it is Shedinja, so be careful with it.


Scolipede with no Speed Boost, Mienfoo when you could use Mienshao... what?

The duck is an interesting idea, though. I'll have to consider it.

Sylveon doesn't learn Aromatherapy iirc, but that doesn't matter because it does learn Heal Bell.

 

[Esprite]

Wait, Akumeoy, Shedinja? In a meta where Knock Off is really useful?

 

[FlameUser64]

Wait, Akumeoy, Shedinja? In a meta where Knock Off is really useful?

Well, Shedinja is easier to get on the field because Defog switches you out. Just make sure your Defogger isn't weak to Dark then, I guess? Basically don't use Latias as your Defogger if you want to use Shedinja, I'd say.

 

[Akumeoy]

Sylveon doesn't learn Aromatherapy iirc, but that doesn't matter because it does learn Heal Bell.

Yeah, that's what I meant >.>

Wait, Akumeoy, Shedinja? In a meta where Knock Off is really useful?

Well, Shedinja is easier to get on the field because Defog switches you out. Just make sure your Defogger isn't weak to Dark then, I guess? Basically don't use Latias as your Defogger if you want to use Shedinja, I'd say.

It's situational; don't hard- or fast-switch it in on something that's gonna hit it with a super-effective move. Or against Pursuit users. Really, its ability to switch in on Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, and Probopass give it a solid niche. The proliferation of slow switches and Defog (you are running reliable Defog, right?) may actually make it a bit easier to use than in standard.

Also: Druddigon. Mold Breaker Stealth Rock to power through the Mega Sableyes that I've seen running around. Mold Breaker Pursuit to pressure (or even KO) Shedinja and Probopass, and a few other good moves like Dragon Tail and Sucker Punch. A very unique niche, all things considered. Outside of this, damn near useless. Anyone have any luck with it?

 

[Ghoul King]

Currently moves that have can target any position in Triples (Hurricane, Dragon Pulse, etc) don't trigger the switch. I'm guessing that's not what Rumors wants, either.

Probopass

Bring Gothitelle, Taunt it, kill it. Alternatively, bring a properly leveled Probopass with Magnet Pull, Taunt it, kill it.

Certainly nifty against teams that aren't carrying Gothitelle or Magnet Pull Probopass. Also worth commentary that Wonder Skin has a 50% chance of causing Pain Split to miss, and of course any multi-hit or Flinch chance move is its bane. (Obviously tricky to use against Fake Out Regenerator spam)

 

[canno]

Bring Gothitelle, Taunt it, kill it. Alternatively, bring a properly leveled Probopass with Magnet Pull, Taunt it, kill it.

Just going to say that, by experience, just because you have an answer to something doesn't mean it won't be a problem in this meta simply because its hard as fuck to actually get your answer in on the target without it switching out.

For example, how exactly do you plan on getting Goth in on a Probo? You can't just switch into your Goth - it'll do any move and then switch out (you can't trap switch moves) into something to handle Goth. If you plan on catching it on a switch, well, hard switching is not a thing in this meta, especially when you're Probo. You'd have to get a "slow-turn" from your Pokemon, but if your going second and they're switching their is no way in hell they're bringing in the Probo.

So yes, while Goth might be the best way to deal with it (Any Taunt user does the trick, really), just having the answer isn't enough as it's really hard to get it in on the thing you want to beat.

EDIT: Also I just realized that once you Taunt with Goth you have to switch, meaning you actually either need another trapper or use a different tauntmon to switch into Goth. Otherwise Probo just manually switches out. You do get momentum but Probo is still alive.

 

[Ghoul King]

Actually, that revises what I said to a much simpler thing: bring a Taunter, have the Taunter switch into any trapper, have the trapper hit it, done, which is much less complicated than trying to have Gothitelle or Probopass get in an Taunt it. It won't kill it, but it will make it almost impossible to get it in and Pain Split again.

 

[Akumeoy]

It seems like kind of a waste of team space to bring a trapper and Taunt to deal with Probopass when neither seems exceptionally useful in this format otherwise (okay, Taunt might have a niche, but not a huge one).

 

[Rumors]

Ditto is pretty good in this meta, especially against Regen-heavy teams. It also make for a funny core with Shedinja. Arcanine also seems potentially interesting with Justified to punish Knock Off spam and Extreme Speed for high priority switches against a bad match-up. I don't think I'm leveraging it right though.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-voltturnmayhem-2143

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-voltturnmayhem-2145

(Also, either the code hasn't been updated or some moves still aren't switching.)


I forgot to save the replay, but Trick Room is rather viable as well. Just be sure to out-slow Amoongus... >.>


Also, needing to Taunt Probopass and switch to a trapper just to beat it seems like too convoluted of a strategy to be really feasible. Just use something like Moldy Excadrill, who can KO it, set hazards against Sableye, and also spin if needed. Or something with status or multi-hits.

 

[BuriedAlive]

Blaziken, Mega Lucario and Darkrai for unban since boosting got nerfed?

 

[FlameUser64]

Blaziken, Mega Lucario and Darkrai for unban since boosting got nerfed?

I feel like Mega Lucario can still just click Close Combat to murder everything. The others look significantly less scary, though.

 

[canno]

I'd agree with letting Blaziken go. He would be an interesting addition.

Darkrai and M-Lucario however should stay dead. Darkrai is on of the fastest sleepers with one of the more reliable sleep moves (I'd put it up there with Spore because while not 100% accurate it works on Grass-types). The only thing I see keeping it in is that it's STAB move of choice (Dark Pulse) doesn't let it switch, but even then I think its too fast and its Dark Void is ridiculous. Meanwhile Mega Luke can Nuke-And-Run with its base 115 speed really easy.

Speaking of nuking and running, Sun is Fun.

 

[Ghoul King]

Don't forget Mega Lucario has Bullet Punch and Extreme Speed, not to mention double Stealth Rock resistance, all of which is really good in this meta.

 

[FlameUser64]

I'd agree with letting Blaziken go. He would be an interesting addition.

Darkrai and M-Lucario however should stay dead. Darkrai is on of the fastest sleepers with one of the more reliable sleep moves (I'd put it up there with Spore because while not 100% accurate it works on Grass-types). The only thing I see keeping it in is that it's STAB move of choice (Dark Pulse) doesn't let it switch, but even then I think its too fast and its Dark Void is ridiculous. Meanwhile Mega Luke can Nuke-And-Run with its base 115 speed really easy.

Speaking of nuking and running, Sun is Fun.

Actually, for Darkrai being able to stay in as long as it uses Dark Pulse is good. That lets it actually boost with Nasty Plot viably.

 

[Esprite]

I didn't have problems with probo, but if anyone does, switch in Shedinja to troll it.

 

[M'joe'ra]

I forgot to save the replay, but Trick Room is rather viable as well. Just be sure to out-slow Amoongus... >.>

I think i saved the replay that you are talking about Rumors http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-voltturnmayhem-2142
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-voltturnmayhem-2142 Lemme know if its not the one.

 

[Rumors]

I think i saved the replay that you are talking about Rumors
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-voltturnmayhem-2142 Lemme know if its not the one.

That's the one, thanks!


Also, Dark Pulse should cause switching. The fact that it isn't is a bug.


As for unbans, I'd only look at ones that are heavily nerfed by the mechanics, such as Blazekin (boosting), Gengar-M (trapping), Skymin (repeated flinch hax). Stuff like Mega-Luke, which aren't really affected by and may even benefit from the mechanics, are definite nos. Though before there's any major discussion/consideration towards unbans, I'd like to address something else first. You can probably guess what it is.

Fake Out. I've chatted with a few players on the server and it generally seems to be agreed that Fake Out is extremely centralizing. While it's probably just a mere-nuisance to certain teams, such as Regen spam, a pair of fast Fake Out users can completely lock down a team that has no hard answer to it until either the victim's team is dead or Fake Out is out of PP. As such, I'm strongly considering giving it a quick ban. However, this isn't finalized, so if anyone can come up with a convincing arguement as to why Fake Out is healthy for the meta, you have your chance.

I'll be making a decision on whether Fake Out will be banned or not this weekend. In the mean time, please voice your opinions or, better yet, share replays on the matter.