VoltTurn Mayhem

Also, Dark Pulse should cause switching. The fact that it isn't is a bug.
If things are working like I think they are, moves that can hit on the opposite side of the field, (like hurricane or brave bird), don't cause switches because they are sort of spread moves and that type of move isn't programmed to switch. So its not really a bug but more of whoever programmed this not making spread moves switch.
 
If things are working like I think they are, moves that can hit on the opposite side of the field, (like hurricane or brave bird), don't cause switches because they are sort of spread moves and that type of move isn't programmed to switch. So its not really a bug but more of whoever programmed this not making spread moves switch.
But dark pulse isn't a spread move. Nor is hurricane or brave bird?
 
"Target: Any" moves, yes, currently don't switch. The code clearly originally just said "Target: Normal" (ie one adjacent Pokemon) would cause the switch, which isn't the targeting for Dark Pulse/Dragon Pulse/Aura Sphere/Water Pulse/Heal Pulse/most Flying moves/all spread moves like Earthquake.

I'll be making a decision on whether Fake Out will be banned or not this weekend. In the mean time, please voice your opinions or, better yet, share replays on the matter.
I'm personally impressed at how possible it is to block, but I find it particularly alarming to see in replays that Mienshao gets Knock Off, and therefore can effortlessly punish a predicted Ghost switch. Inner Focus Pokemon aren't all vulnerable, but getting them in on a Fake Out Pokemon is difficult, and they'll still switch out before you can attack -even Dragonite's Extreme Speed is too low in priority to push past it. You literally have to have something Protect or be a Ghost type to be able to get in an attack past Fake Out on the Fake Outer.

I don't want Fake Out to be banned, but I'm honestly not sure it's healthy to keep it in.
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
is a Pre-Contributor
"Target: Any" moves, yes, currently don't switch. The code clearly originally just said "Target: Normal" (ie one adjacent Pokemon) would cause the switch, which isn't the targeting for Dark Pulse/Dragon Pulse/Aura Sphere/Water Pulse/Heal Pulse/most Flying moves/all spread moves like Earthquake.
Due to request of Rumors I fixed that a few days ago, Snaquaza just hasn't updated his server yet
 
I don't want Fake Out to be banned, but I'm honestly not sure it's healthy to keep it in.
I'm pretty much of the same feeling presently. Ideally I'd never have to ban anything, but unfortunately, it's very rare for a metagame to be healthy, fun, and diverse without at least a few of 'em.


And, on this subject, is there any other opinions on Fake Out? I'm going to make the call on it tomorrow unless a major discussion erupts. And, at the moment, I'm leaning towards a ban to keep the meta from being centralized on this one move.
 
I'm pretty much of the same feeling presently. Ideally I'd never have to ban anything, but unfortunately, it's very rare for a metagame to be healthy, fun, and diverse without at least a few of 'em.


And, on this subject, is there any other opinions on Fake Out? I'm going to make the call on it tomorrow unless a major discussion erupts. And, at the moment, I'm leaning towards a ban to keep the meta from being centralized on this one move.
From the battles that i have seen/done, the teams are already equipped with either a ghost type or multiple protect users. Now im not sure how much of that was because of fake out or because of something along the lines of pp stall or wish passing. Either way, I think the metagame has already adapted to the point of being prepared enough for it or accidentally being ready for it to the point of if I had to vote on it i would vote Do not ban.
 
I feel like Fake Out is balancing the metagame. Additionally, VoltTurn Mayhem is a lot more strategic with Fake Out around, so I think we can all agree that Fake Out pivoting is a rather enjoyable aspect of this metagame. However, it is true that Fake Out is extremely overcentralising. To me, Fake Out isn't the problem, Fake Out with practically every Pokemon is the problem. The use of multiple Fake Out Pokemon promote undesirable variance in the metagame; as such, I believe the best course of action would be to implement a '2 Fake Out Pokemon per team' clause.
 
I'm not sure capping it at two is adequate, having watched replays where only two Pokemon on a team were carrying Fake Out and it was still enough to substantially distort matches. I do like the idea of capping the total Fake Outers, but I'm not sure you can address the overcentralizing aspect except by completely blocking the Fake Out/Fake Out/Fake Out/Fake Out/etc spam, which means capping it at 1.
 
The issue I have with banning Fake Out is that, on one hand you can easily stop it with Protect. On the other hand you have to run Protect to not get rekt by Fake Out.

If we do "ban" it, it should be capped at one - the only time I think Fake Out is broken is when you have 2 or more comboing into each other.
 
The difference between this meta and Linked as far as Fake Out is concerned is that at least in Linked, FakeTurn doesn't have priority.

That said, there's so much Protect running around for various reasons that the meta seems to have adapted already. I've not played it yet myself, and so I don't really have an opinion on the matter either way. I'll go with what The Reptile said though: if you're going to "ban" Fake Out, just restrict it to 1/team.
 
So I fell asleep before making the final call. Sorry about that!

But anyway, rereading posts and the arguments presented, as well as going based off my own experience, replays, and what people told me before I came to this topic to ask for opinions, I'm going to go with limiting Fake Out to 1 per team. Reason being, I'd rather not ban it outright if I can help it, and if Fake Out is still too over centralizing then we can take that step. But on the other hand, limit 2 per team doesn't fix the problem of being able to completely lock a team down that either lacks a hard counter or has lost it/them. It just limits how long they can do that due to PP (aka 32 turns as opposed to a potential 96 turns).

To be clear: Fake Out will be limited to 1 user per team going forward.


So next up, unless something becomes far too centralizing/dominant/broken as a result of this change, let's look at potential unbans. Blazekin, Blazekin-Mega, and Gengar-Mega have already been mentioned. What are some other possible candidates? They need to be broken for reasons that the gimmick of this OM significantly hurts, such as Blazekin's Baton Passing capabilities or Gengar-M's trapping.

Off the top of my own head, Shaymin-Sky comes to mind, potentially, but I'm unsure about that one. If that's a bad idea, feel free to shoot it down.
 
So I fell asleep before making the final call. Sorry about that!

But anyway, rereading posts and the arguments presented, as well as going based off my own experience, replays, and what people told me before I came to this topic to ask for opinions, I'm going to go with limiting Fake Out to 1 per team. Reason being, I'd rather not ban it outright if I can help it, and if Fake Out is still too over centralizing then we can take that step. But on the other hand, limit 2 per team doesn't fix the problem of being able to completely lock a team down that either lacks a hard counter or has lost it/them. It just limits how long they can do that due to PP (aka 32 turns as opposed to a potential 96 turns).

To be clear: Fake Out will be limited to 1 user per team going forward.


So next up, unless something becomes far too centralizing/dominant/broken as a result of this change, let's look at potential unbans. Blazekin, Blazekin-Mega, and Gengar-Mega have already been mentioned. What are some other possible candidates? They need to be broken for reasons that the gimmick of this OM significantly hurts, such as Blazekin's Baton Passing capabilities or Gengar-M's trapping.

Off the top of my own head, Shaymin-Sky comes to mind, potentially, but I'm unsure about that one. If that's a bad idea, feel free to shoot it down.
On first thought Skymin does seem like a good unban but there are still scenarios where it by itself can flinch kill a whole team(ingrain passing unless ingrain doesn't stop momentum moves) and it can be used in conjunction with full speed rachi to consistently stop a pokemon from gaining momentum as well as pairing it with a fake out user. basically if it were to be unbanned it'd be similar to having 2 fake outs on a team.
 
Mega Gengar is still very powerful. While it can't keep pokemon in with Shadow Tag, it will still keep you from manually switching through Shadow Tag, outspeed you with its base 130 speed, and then destroy you with its base 170 special attack. It also has a ghost typing that makes it immune to lots of priority moves (Fake Out, Extreme Speed, Feint, Quick Attack, Vacuum Wave, Mach Punch) to make it harder to switch out before it destroys you. On top of that, you can now get it in easily without worrying about its low bulk by have a slow pokemon attack to send it in without taking damage.

Mega Blaziken has an incredibly high base 160 attack and pretty good base 100 speed. However, it gets no items and has a useless ability, so it may or may not be too centralizing. I would say its worst part is that you can run a physical, special, or mixed set that would have completely different counters. I would support trying it and seeing if it is good.
Regular Blaziken would be good to unban, though. I doubt it will see much use because Infernape has a more reliable fighting-STAB, Fake Out, and a higher speed, at the cost of 16 attack and 6 special attack.

Also, people were talking about unbanning Mega Lucario. As much as I wish to use it, Mega Lucario should remain banned as it can now get in for free and Close Combat without worrying about Defense/Special Defense drops.
 
Shaymin-Sky just needs to be coupled with something like Scarfed Jirachi to get the flinch-hax going, as Throbulator pointed out, and it throws in a devastating Seed Flare as an option to boot, and has coverage in the form of Earth Power, making it extremely difficult to bring in something it can't really touch. (Bronzong is one of the only things that isn't impressed by Shaymin-Sky)

Regular Blaziken is, yeah, arguably a bad Infernape, especially since Infernape's Iron Fist, though weak, is a lot more relevant since it boosts Mach Punch, Thunderpunch, etc, while Speed Boost is only useful if Blaziken deliberately stalls with Protect to pull ahead of something in specific, or otherwise ends up not switching for a turn. Mega Blaziken could be worth a shot, anyway.

Mulan15262 said:
While it can't keep pokemon in with Shadow Tag, it will still keep you from manually switching through Shadow Tag, outspeed you with its base 130 speed, and then destroy you with its base 170 special attack.
If you're trying to manually switch in Volturn, you're generally doing something wrong/in trouble anyway. (Especially now that Fake Out is capped) And certainly it's fast and hard-hitting, but it got banned to Ubers in part because it could go both the "smack things and they die" route and just trap something and Perish Song it away, which is considerably harder when anything that pokes it will switch out and ignore the counter. (Basically most Eviolite Chansey builds are screwed, since Toxic and Seismic Toss are often their only moves for triggering the switch, and neither works on Mega Gengar -but then there's Thunder Wave Chansey)

It's also still vulnerable to Sucker Punch, has weak defenses in general, lacks healing, doesn't resist Stealth Rock, and can't even carry Leftovers. Furthermore, from the perspective of stall, trying to trap doesn't work so well when Roar and Whirlwind go through Protect and give the shuffler a switch into whatever they feel like, in response to your random switch.

I'd rather see it unbanned and actually tested than just assume it's still broken, given how much its core strengths suffer. Being fast and hard hitting isn't everything in Volturn, bizarrely enough, and carrying Mega Gengar means you're not carrying some other Mega, some of which have already proven to be very good in Volturn.

I am curious as to the possibility of unbanning Mega Salamence. It can't setup and sweep like crazy since the first time it hits something it'll switch, but it's still going to be obnoxiously hard hitting and have perfect coverage for its primary attack, and arguably it can just drop Dragon Dance for Roost, freeing up the rest of its movepool to be something like Return/Earthquake/Fire Blast, so I'm not sure myself, but it's the main other Uber that seems possible to unban.
 
All right, so, I'm thinking first we'll do is unban Mega-Blaze and try him out for a week or two, see how he impacts things. If he's still broken, we'll ban Blazekenite and give regular Blaze a chance. After that, Gengar will be up next and from there... well, we have time. Mega-Salamence might be worth looking at, but I don't have much experience with it since I wasn't poking OU when it was unbanned and didn't follow the ban discussions on it.
 
All right, so, I'm thinking first we'll do is unban Mega-Blaze and try him out for a week or two, see how he impacts things. If he's still broken, we'll ban Blazekenite and give regular Blaze a chance. After that, Gengar will be up next and from there... well, we have time. Mega-Salamence might be worth looking at, but I don't have much experience with it since I wasn't poking OU when it was unbanned and didn't follow the ban discussions on it.
you should test blaze before megablaze. its probably worth a try on salamencite but I'm doubtful it will be balanced.
 
All right, so, I'm thinking first we'll do is unban Mega-Blaze and try him out for a week or two, see how he impacts things. If he's still broken, we'll ban Blazekenite and give regular Blaze a chance. After that, Gengar will be up next and from there... well, we have time. Mega-Salamence might be worth looking at, but I don't have much experience with it since I wasn't poking OU when it was unbanned and didn't follow the ban discussions on it.
So when does the deban for test of blaze and or mega blaze begin?

EDIT: On the topic of salamence...

NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE NEVER EVER!
 
Mr. 420 here is gonna stay. Not sure about Killcam360noscope (Mega) though. Those who want him to stay are gonna pray to Snoop Dogg for this suspect test.
 

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