VoltTurn Mayhem

Actually, protect is a completely viable strat. Fake out only works on the first turn out, so protect gets rid of that threat. After protect, you can threaten with a priority move or just attack if you're faster.
Frankly, then they just super-speed kill your protector. Due to the insane boost from scarves for speed you'd be a fool not to use them except on a mega as speed seems to be a major factor this meta, so its always mega diancie/aggron who has it then they die from talonflame, lopuny or bisharp. As I said, I have had extreme speed fail against scarfed fakeout so I'm not even sure protect would be enough.
 
List of Threats
Frankly, then they just super-speed kill your protector. Due to the insane boost from scarves for speed you'd be a fool not to use them except on a mega as speed seems to be a major factor this meta, so its always mega diancie/aggron who has it then they die from talonflame, lopuny or bisharp. As I said, I have had extreme speed fail against scarfed fakeout so I'm not even sure protect would be enough.
extreeme speed has +2 priority, fakeout has +3 extreme speed always goes second.
 
Good things in this meta:
-Hazards
-Pursuit
-Intimidate
-Regenerator
-Choice items
-Moves that debuff (overheat, leaf storm)
-recharge moves
 
Serperior @ Choice Specs
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Dragon Pulse
- Wring Out (really whatever who cares)
- Frenzy Plant

this is fun! spam frenzy plant, switch out, profit! really easy to use.
 

2Lou4u

Banned deucer.
Actually, protect is a completely viable strat. Fake out only works on the first turn out, so protect gets rid of that threat. After protect, you can threaten with a priority move or just attack if you're faster.
You shouldn't HAVE to have one specific move just so you don't get juggled and dunked on. Either way it's a cancerous strategy and is easily manipulable.
 
Serperior @ Choice Specs
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Dragon Pulse
- Wring Out (really whatever who cares)
- Frenzy Plant

this is fun! spam frenzy plant, switch out, profit! really easy to use.
Basic Sceptile has more Special Attack and Speed, and Mega Sceptile has even more than that. Why would you ever use Serperior if Contrary doesn't factor into your strength?

EDIT:

Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Frenzy Plant
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain/Protect/Quick Attack

Untested set. Quick Attack can be used to safely switch if they double into Talonflame or something IDK.
 
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sin(pi)

lucky n bad
Agreed. Fakeout is way too overpowered in this setup. They should force a server start. Right now most people just juggle fakeout then go "It's not cheating if the server allows it. lol." I have had fakeout hit before EXTREME SPEED. This is not right at all.

And to the people who say "use protect"- it just locks you into being hit by fakeout NEXT turn.
And scald or other status? Yeah, good luck landing it before fakout. You won't.
While you're correct in that Fake Out isn't healthy here, there's a couple of points in this post I wanted to address (this isn't meant to come off as an attack or anything so please don't take it as such):
-Firstly, if you look a couple of posts up I mentioned that Fake Out was still unrestricted, and Pikachuun said that he'd work on it when he had the time (if there's problems with coding it, could the code from the BP clause be used?). I don't want to mini mod or anything, but complaining about it doesn't really help given that a) the clause is already in place in the OP and b) the problem with the code has been noted.
-The entire point of Fake Out is that it goes before any other damaging attack (ignoring pursuit on a switch out). It's priority bracket is +3, which will always beat Espeed (+2) and every status move (+0, or +1 with prankster).
-Protect is a much better move in this metagame, partly because of Fake Out's ubiquity, and partly because of Slaking (I'll talk about this briefly below). It's also a good way to scout in a meta where manual switching is a momentum sink.
-Fake Out only works on your first turn.

On to Slaking - a couple of people I've run into on the ladder have complained that "it's broken" etc, but there are multiple ways to deal with it, some of which you should have on your team anyway:
-Fake Out: The devil itself is actually a great way of beating 'king, because Truant counts the flinch as "you tried to attack, skip your next turn". This means the Slaking user has to switch out.
-Protect: Again, this forces Slaking out, pretty simple stuff.
-Bulky Steels (Ghosts) not weak to Fighting (Ghost or Dark): Slaking's huge damage output comes mainly from Giga Impact, so resisting/being immune to that is useful. The standard set is something like Impact/Hammer Arm/Shadow Claw OR Night Slash/Filler, where the filler is usually either Sucker Punch, Return, or Facade.
-Burns: Do I need to explain this? Slightly tricky to pull off, as it's not coming in on Scalds with that base 65 SpDef, and Wisp is mainly Ghosts which it doesn't like either.
Oh, and if you're running Slaking, there's basically no reason NOT to run a choice item, so please don't run LO like that one guy I saw yesterday :toast:

edit: didn't see that we'd moved on to the next page, some of this has been said already
 
I've already asked for a hotpatch so please be patient until then.

And it's only day 1. You guys will have ~28 more days to play this. It ain't the end o the world.
^This.


Also, people, please stop PMing me about Fake Out spam being OP. I'm already well aware of the problem, the clause is in place, and apparently the code has been updated, we're just waiting for it to go live. Until then, we'll have to either adapt to the problem or just wait for the patch. I'm sorry I can't do more. But, please, again, stop PMing me about it.
 
After playing this meta for a while, I'd actually say it's really fun. Slow and fast Voltturn switches has their own advantages and disadvantages, so it's actually not everything offense, though it leans towards offense than stall.

Some threats I see that's very effective.

Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Giga Impact
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick
- Quick Attack (yes, I run Quick Attack in case Fake Out got Protected, usually works vs Mega Alakazam)

Probably the best mon in the meta currently. Fastest Normal type Fake Out user (not counting Scarfers) that can hit Ghost. It's obvious that it'll be a threat. How to stop this? Basically... none but you can wear it down by Rocky Helmet pokes (same goes to most Fake Out abusers).

Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Beam
- Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave
- Trick

Strongest Hyper Beam user. It's damage output is really high, stronger than typical Boomburst Porygon-Z in Sketchmons/STABmons. Even resists got 2HKO'd by this thing. It's not that fast though, so it basically need Scarf.

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive/Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Steel Wing
- Overheat/Will-o-wisp

You don't need U-turn anymore, so I suggest replace the last move to avoid recoil from Rocky helmet Chomp or Ferrothorn. Use Overheat for a non contact move (still pretty strong actually) or Will-o-wisp to screw switch ins.

Things that benefit from this meta (most already mentioned)
Hazards
Fake Out
Regenerator
Hyper Beam variants
Strong moves that lowers stats
Magic Bounce
Choice Scarf
Slaking

I find Intimidate sucked. Badly.
 

drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I haven't used Slaking yet but when it's been used against me I've found it to be very underwhelming. Yes it hits very hard when it works, but if you predict a switch into a ghost type, fake it out (which you still should probably still be running on a team), it suddenly became a huge momentum suck. You can get up hazards or take them down, use Knock Off on some switch in (or Slaking if it stays) or just spam a powerful move. Or use wish. You know free turn stuff.

Speaking of Ghost types, Sableye definitely seems to be one of the best and most common mons on the ladder. Ghost typing, as said, is fantastic with all the normal spam, and it mainly fears Lopunny, Sylveon, and Gardevoir. Which aren't insignificant threats admittedly.

Sableye @ Leftovers / Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off / Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Recover

This is the set I've been working with. I'm not entirely happy with it. It manages priority and thus switching order if you go for Knock Off, or itcan just use Fake Out if you don't have another mon with it. Sucker Punch is a quick switch and some easy damage. I'm not entirely happy with this set, so any suggestions would be very welcome.

Also finally my magnum opus, normal spam extraordinaire, the cyberduck itself,

Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Beam
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Thunderbolt

EDIT: Ninja'd by Chopin Alkaninoff

Every time I get this in safely something dies basically. Don't use the coverage moves. They're for wimps. It's scarfed because of how offensive I've found the ladder to be so far, but I suspect that in time other items will work. When fake out was in I tried Protect / Hyper Beam / Dark Pulse / Recover which wasn't very good. It wants to outspeed things and kill them then move on. Pair with something to beat Sableye, which can easily take a Dark Pulse or Ice Beam and wear you down. I may post replays with this thing later.

Finally finally some pure theorymon... Because switching is so important here, whoever switches last gets to decide the matchup. Therefore you want to be able to control when you switch in the turn. I feel like running something with positive priority alongside negative priority (Say Circle Throw / Quick Attack / Fake Out Lopunny, or Extremespeed / Dragon Tail Dragonite) lets you control the flow of the battle better. Someone ran a Whirlwind Skarmory against me and it worked very well, letting them get a mon in to beat a random one of mine. Any thoughts?

:)
 
Say hello to the awesome:

Surprise! (Zoroark) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick
- Taunt

yes i know i should probably include a special move in here

You'd be surprised how many KOs Zoroark can grab, and it's fairly easy to get it switched in with the enemy unawares -just KO something, switch it in.

It has its flaws of course -Mega Lopunny says hi- but it's nice, and in particular the ability to outspeed Scarves that expect to outspeed Sylveon/other slow Pokemon is quite nice. You'll also occasionally see stuff like Heatran manually switching in, expecting to tank a Pixilated Hyper Beam, if you get Zoroark switched in on something that fears Sylveon.

Yes, a meta in which Zoroark is useful. I'm as surprised as you are.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One for All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Chopin Alkaninoff said:
Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Giga Impact
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick
- Quick Attack (yes, I run Quick Attack in case Fake Out got Protected, usually works vs Mega Alakazam)
Chopin Alkaninoff Lopunny would much prefer to run Low Kick due to Protect's prevalence.
 
hello, i want to know if this was a bug or not. Look at turn 3 and 4.
Turn 3: Thundurus knock off ( Switch to mienshao) and my sableye metal burst (Switch to klefki)
Turn 4: HOW THE FUCK the mienshao knocked off my kleki on the switch, sableye is slower than thundurus i should have gained the momentum.
Is it a glitch with metal burst or metal burst have a special momentum killer ability.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/voltturnmayhem-325766522.

 
hello, i want to know if this was a bug or not. Look at turn 3 and 4.
Turn 3: Thundurus knock off ( Switch to mienshao) and my sableye metal burst (Switch to klefki)
Turn 4: HOW THE FUCK the mienshao knocked off my kleki on the switch, sableye is slower than thundurus i should have gained the momentum.
Is it a glitch with metal burst or metal burst have a special momentum killer ability.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/voltturnmayhem-325766522.

Look at the turn order. You switched on Turn #4. Seems like Metal Burst is not causing a switch like it should.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Look at the turn order. You switched on Turn #4. Seems like Metal Burst is not causing a switch like it should.
It might have to do with how Metal Burst targets the opponent. Veekun says, "Targets the last opposing Pokémon to hit the user with a damaging move this turn." Marty would know.
 

Marty

Always more to find
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Researcher
Research Leader
It might have to do with how Metal Burst targets the opponent. Veekun says, "Targets the last opposing Pokémon to hit the user with a damaging move this turn." Marty would know.
It's because Metal Burst (and Counter and Mirror Coat) have target: "scripted" on PS. The only move targets that can switch the user out currently are "normal", "any", "randomNormal", "allAdjacent", and "allAdjacentFoes". If those three moves are intended to switch the user out, "scripted" should be added. Is it intentional that they got excluded? I'm guessing no.
 
If those three moves are intended to switch the user out, "scripted" should be added. Is it intentional that they got excluded? I'm guessing no.
No, it's not intended. The premise is anything that directly targets your opponent should cause a switch. Self-targeted stuff, like Recover, or field effects, like Sunny Day or Stealth Rock, shouldn't.
 
Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch

beware users of protect, the god of magic breaks thru your barriers with his hyperspace powers. but really tho this thing is a threat vs more defensive teams, and hyperspace fury doesn't even make contact! this also might also be the only meta where hyperspace hole is viable lol

praise the magic god
 
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Quantum Tesseract

No Longer Dead
is a Community Contributor
Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch

beware users of protect, the god of magic breaks thru your barriers with his hyperspace powers. but really tho this thing is a threat vs more defensive teams, and hyperspace fury doesn't even make contact! this also might also be the only meta where hyperspace hole is viable lol
why 252 spa with 1 special attack?
 

Marty

Always more to find
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Researcher
Research Leader
No, it's not intended. The premise is anything that directly targets your opponent should cause a switch. Self-targeted stuff, like Recover, or field effects, like Sunny Day or Stealth Rock, shouldn't.
Alright, should be fixed next hotpatch.
 
Alright, I've played this metagame a bit now. I'll go over what I feel is strong in it.

Short version
  • Momentum is key.
  • There is no such thing as a counter. Just more or less repeatable checks
  • Immunities allow defensive switching
  • Good cleaners have stabs that no immunities exist for
  • Strong win cons can wear down their checks. (usually with priority moves)
  • Hazards allow defensive switching
  • Clearing Hazards is easier than setting them up, because Defog / Rapid Spin allow you to switch; keeping your momentum
  • Accuracy is extremely important; a miss means you lose momentum, and the only way to get it back is usually a sacc

Detailed version

Momentum is the order in which you send out your Pokémon. Three possible cases
A: You choose your pokémon, then the opponent chooses theirs
  • Disadvantageous Situation. Occurs after you score a kill or make a defensive switch
  • What you want is a strong lead
  • Fake out gimicks can grab (back) the momentum if your opponent is unprepared, but answers exist. Not always reliable - any random mon can carry protect
  • If your wincon can wear down all its checks (usually with priority moves), it is a good idea to send it out
  • You probably have to make a sacc to get out of this situation, but there are ways to get advantages out of it, like setting hazards or removing them
B: Opponent chooses first
  • Advantageous situation. Occurs after you sacrifice a mon or your opponent makes a defensive switch
  • This choice is usually straight-forward in game. The main work lies in teambuilding
  • What you want is a strong counter-lead
  • Prepare answers to fake out strategies (usually this involves the move protect)
  • Prepare answers to various strong win cons, that don't get worn down easily (mind you, this is about counter leads, not switching)
  • Sometimes it is good to make sure you can ohko the bulkier standard choices in the tier, so as not to lose momentum to a counterattack. (This will invalidate defensive switching)
  • Choosing last allows you to bring out more fragile Pokémon, without the fear of running into a pursuit trapper or Dugtrio, since you're switching in on full information, and you'll be able to switch out on the same turn
C: Both players choose at the same time.
  • This is basically just a randomized mix of the other two. A guessing game that goes both ways

Set collection

Pinsir-Mega
-Giga Impact
-Protect
-Knock off / Close Combat / Earthquake / ?
-Feint

Feint is +2 priority, so this lets Pinsir outspeed Talonflame's Brave Bird, Lopunny's Quick Attack (after protect blocks Fake Out), and Dragonite's Extremespeed. It's very good at wearing down the more squishy priority checks but does not leave a lot of damage on resisting targets like Aerodactyl / Mega Diancie, when compared to Talonflame's Brave Bird.
Feint is also not a contact move, so it won't mind hitting Rocky Helmet / Rough Skin users.
The third move is pretty arbitrary, as a resisted Giga Impact still has 150*1.3*1.5/2 = 146 base power. This is stronger than a neutral Close Combat, even though accuracy can be an issue.
Good Checks / Counterleads:



Talonflame @ Leftovers (!)
-Will-o-Whisp / Tailwind / ?
-Flare Blitz
-Brave Bird
-Protect

Protect turns Talonflame into a lead that beats all Fake Out users. (But Lopunny's Quick Attack can wear it down.)
Since Leftovers activate after Talonflame is switched in with a turning move, together with protect it gives it some much needed staying power. Even though it runs recoil moves, Talonflame can outlive most of its checks (except Slowbro / Alomomola with Regenerator and Heatran with Leftovers + Protect of its own).
Hazards and possibly a burn from Will-o-Wisp / pairing with Dugtrio can help wear them down, allowing Talon to clean.
Good Checks / Counterleads:



Latios @ Choice Scarf
-Defog
-Psyshock
-Draco Meteor
-HP Fire
This is just a Placeholder; don't be afraid to run things like Scarfed, Banded or Specs Defog. It won't lock you into a move, since using it results in a switch. Choiced Rapid Spin isn't as good an idea, since ghost types will still spin block, stopping your switch. (And it can be scouted for with protect, so this isn't completely prediction based.)
Keep in mind that this is mostly a counterlead, not a lead. Fake Out can easily steal your momentum if you use this as a lead.
 
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Mega Pinsir can also use Thrash if you want a power boost without a chance of missing. 30 BP less, of course, which is a pretty noticeable drop, but avoiding missing can be invaluable, and the locking is irrelevant unless you're the last Pokemon standing. (At which point Giga Impact's recharge turn is much more problematic of a disadvantage)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/voltturnmayhem-326876626

So apparently Copycat can call Fake Out. In Standard, this is almost completely irrelevant, but here it means you can partially bypass the Fake Out clause -get a fast, Scarfed Copycatter, or grab Liepard for +1 priority Copycat only beatable by +2 or greater priority or the handful of faster +1 priority Pokemon, and you can endlessly Fake Out. Protect still helps kill this, of course, and in particular if you Protect against the non-Copycat Fake Outer the Copycat Fake Outer can't restart the cycle, but this is still getting around the clause.

Dunno if it's so horrendous it needs to be addressed or if it's manageable enough, compared to classic infinite Fake Out, but I wanted to bring it to the attention of the thread.
 

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