***[VOTE] Event Moves, Legendary IVs. How "real" do we want it to be?***

[Chou Toshio]

I vote NO on event moves. As a breeder and former heavily active member on wifi, I can say that getting these pokemon with just the right nature (let alone IVs) is a truly difficult endeavor if not near impossible. Moreover, the popularization of strategies using these moves on shoddy/sims only adds to the demand for these moves, and subsequent increased degree of hacking in the wifi community. If shoddy/sims/smogon were to not include these moves in the competitive metagame, it would allow the wifi community to make a much better effort at sticking close to the competitive metagame on the sims-- making both communities moreso part of the same community. Smogon is not only a strategy dictionary, but also a community, and a community that would not exist at all if not for the cartridge game itself. Keeping Wifi and Sim players on the same page as much as possible is something worthy of pursuit for smogon. For those reasons alone I think Event moves would be better off banned, though in many cases it is as others have mentioned that their power can be disbalancing as well.

On a different note though, I don't think Legendary IVs are important to restrict. Have you seen the legendary pokes we have in Smogon's wifi community? I would have near-total confidence taking the legendaries I've collected on the wifi boards into a battle against perfectly IV'd hacks. The IVs on Legends are different from event moves in that SRing for near-perfection is a much more possible task, and if anything allowing for perfect IVs on shoddy only increases the motivation on the wifi board to catch better legendaries.

 

[stormtrooper]

i am in favor of removing all event moves because we don't know what natures or iv these pokemon have. cartridge consistent iv's should stay because they are more realistic than having all 31's on legendary pokemon,one or two stat points doesnt make much of difference anyway.

 

[Automatic]

Things should be as close to the actual game as possible. It's supposed to be an emulator, might as well emulate the actual game and not modify it to your pleasing in terms of possible moves/iv/nature combinations.

 

[Darth Meanie]

I am In Favor of enforcing legendary IV's, and Against a Blanket event move ban. There is a fine line between wish blissey and tickle Wobbuffet. Tickle Wobby is not feasible, Wish Bliss is. Again, the closest emulation of the cartridges is what i think needs to be enforced.

EDIT: Also, we do not know Wish Bliss PIDs, but I argue: which has a greater effect on the metagame? 12 or so Blissey IVs or the ability for the bulkiest pokemon in the game to wish? For a close emulation of the cartridge game, we have to choose to side with the greater factor on the metagame.

 

[gorm]

i all for reaslistic legendary IVs. who cares if it's insignificant/decreases their effectiveness (the two main arguments i keep hearing void eachother >_>), the fact that they are flat out impossible should be reason enough.

the next subject is touchier, but im for event moves since it's just being "lenient" with what's possible, not flat out breaking any rules.

my heart wants to agree with carl but im a bit of a purist

 

[IggyBot]

I vote against event moves. Like I said earlier, i don't feel very strongly about this, but for all intents and purposes, these moves simply don't exist in real life. The only Wish Blissey you'll see on WiFi is in a Masterball and shiny if you catch my drift.

It's not a matter of how realistic your chances at getting them are, it's a matter of "Can Wish Blissey actually exist in game?" The answer is yes. You say a simulator should simulate, but then you contradict yourself.

 

[Syberia]

I am voting in favor of restricted legends, providing that a convenient list of Hidden Power IV/Nature combinations exists. Possibly incorporate this into the Team Builder itself, so that if you want a Calm HP Ice Zapdos, it makes all of the necessary adjustments itself, and you're not stuck with a list of changes you can make, none of which allow you to keep the same Hidden Power.

Also voting in favor of event moves. The whole purpose of Shoddy Battle is to simulate the "ideal" battling environment. Such an environment includes everything that was ever released, regardless of one's chances of actually getting a good one.

 

[Green Mage]

You say a simulator should simulate, but then you contradict yourself.

I didn't contradict myself at all. "A simulator should simulate" and "these moves don't exist in real life" are my two arguments.

And i see where you're coming from, but I personally feel that your chances of having them is the defining factor, because the chance is basically nil.

 

[Syberia]

Shoddy Battle is supposed to simulate the "ideal" environment. In which case, everyone who wanted a WishBlissey could have one. As long as everyone has access to the same event pokemon, it's not giving anyone the upper hand.

 

[gorm]

And i see where you're coming from, but I personally feel that your chances of having them is the defining factor, because the chance is basically nil.

pretty close to that bold hp ice zapdos and bold celebi on that one team of yours im sure.

im just joking i dont actually know you, but seriously we've all made teams that have a lower probability of happening then me having sex with shigeru miyamoto himself

"chance" of it existing legitimately is completely irrelevant in a simulator lol

 

[IggyBot]

I didn't contradict myself at all. "A simulator should simulate" and "these moves don't exist in real life" are my two arguments.

And i see where you're coming from, but I personally feel that your chances of having them is the defining factor, because the chance is basically nil.

By this logic, we should ban perfect IVs, as well as the best possible Hidden Power IV combinations because your chances of getting one in game are "basically nil"

You did contradict yourself. These event moves do indeed exist in real life, and are possible (however hard it may be) to obtain legitimately in game.

 

[Green Mage]

pretty close to that bold hp ice zapdos and bold celebi on that one team of yours im sure.

You're exactly right actually, and ironically enough I was just thinking about that Bold Celebi being a skeleton in my closet. HPs and perfect IVs and natures are no different than event moves, are they? I'll go up and change my vote.

 

[gorm]

way to go me syberia and iggybot ;D

 

[Khelvaster]

For unreleased event moves, we don't know the IVs and nature of the pokemon who will get them. I don't see why we should ban released event moves, provided we limit IVs and nature. Legendary IVs should also be limited, because those are impossible to obtain.

 

[Efreet]

I vote for for cartridge consistent Legendary IVs, even if the impact is minumum and maybe superfluous a simulator has as a gol perfect simulation at least in game mechanics.
For the same reason I am moderately in favor of Event Moves, like obi and cardsoftheheart stated only sure and documented iv,nature and event moves should be allowed.

 

[Aquilae]

I am for cartridge consistent legendary IVs. A simulator should attempt to simulate what is actually possible in the game and the restriction of legendary IVs would not have a great impact on the way the game is played itself at the moment.

I am for event moves, seeing that they do exist and again, the job of a simulator is to simulate this regardless of their rarity. I trust the administration of Smogon and the people in charge of the battle simulators to ensure only well-documented event moves would get added.

 

[Akayfortyseven]

I vote for cartridge consistent IVs, for the pure reason that a simulator is meant to be as close to the actual game as possible.

I am against event moves due to the fact that most of them are extremely scarce with little info on them or the RNG process of them, meaning we do not know for sure what IV and nature combinations are available.

Yeah.

 

[rkatzam]

I vote in favor of restricted legendary IVs. The fact that perfect IVs are simply impossible on some of them is all it takes for me to make that decision. Sometimes even 1 point in speed can affect the entire battle, I think this should definitely be enforced to create a fair environment.

I vote against event moves. Yeah, they exist, but the question here is how far a simulator goes at simulating the actual game. I don't think it should be idle (in that specific case) because those are extremely rare and aren't seen in Wifi play, unless hacked. A simulator should simulate the environment of play first, the technical stuff should only come second.

 

[Jimbo]

I vote no event moves. They make powerful pokemon like Blissey even more powerful, and being an active Wifi member, I know how difficult it is to find a legit WishBliss/WishMence-almost impossible. I think to get as close to the real game as possible, Shoddy shouldn't allow these 'moves of lore.' If anything pokemon with event moves should have their IVs restricted because we haven't seen any documentation that they even can have competitive IVs.

I vote for cartidge consistent IVs, again, Shoddy should be as close as possible to the real D/P, and to do this IVs need to be similar. You'll never be battling a legit 31 All Zapdos on Wifi just like you shouldn't be battling them on Shoddy.

 

[Mystica]

I vote for allowing event moves simply because if nintendo gave a certain pokemon a move, then why not use it. Shoddy represents the most ideal sort of pokemon environment. WHO CARES if WishBlissey with 31 IVs and Bold nature is a .001% of getting lol. Not using an event move is silly. Also I miss WishHypno/Bliss/Mence that gave use very standard sets that many of us have used and liked. =(

I vote for allowing the IV restriction. It's not that big of a deal guys lol.

and omg jump i love your posts!

 

[X-Act]

Just to be clear, whoever has registered in April 2008, May 2008 or June 2008 is not allowed to vote. However, they are free to discuss (but please keep on-topic) in these threads. Thanks for understanding.

 

[Maroon3d]

I am for IV restricted legendaries because this has not been a big problems like other things.

I am for un-banning event moves. If we we're going to ban event moves, the ones with sketch details should have been banned, not all of them.

 

[Cathy]

Shoddy Battle is supposed to simulate the "ideal" environment. In which case, everyone who wanted a WishBlissey could have one. As long as everyone has access to the same event pokemon, it's not giving anyone the upper hand.

When you begin to think about what such an "ideal environment" actually means, some of the problems with event moves and a simulator begin to come to light.

Let's suppose that today there still exists a 31/31/31/31/31/31 ideal nature Wish Blissey in somebody's possession, and there is provenance to indicate it actually came from the event. However, the person who has this Blissey is selfish and does not redistribute it. We know this pokemon exists, but you can't just go get it and add it to your team because this guy just won't let you. So what exactly are we "simulating" by allowing it?

Or consider this. Suppose that that he was willing to start distributing it, but then by fluke his file was erased. The pokemon doesn't exist anymore, so there's no way you can get it onto your team. Again, what would be "simulating" by allowing this pokemon when there is no way you can actually get it onto your team?

The only self-consistent way I can see to allowing event moves is to designate one person a trustee of event moves and have this person collect clones (which are legal because we can get them through an ingame method) of all trusted event moves and distribute them to people who request them, and also has a backup of his file. Of course, this is wholly impractical, so it's simpler just to ban event moves. Or you can adopt an inconsistent position.

I think the temptation here is to sweep these philosophical issues under the rug in the name of the metagame that some people prefer, but this is unacceptable, especially if it's not being explicitly stated. There was a similar temptation to allow Arceus in Ubers because some people preferred the metagame with Arceus, but this position was not philosophically sound, so it was unacceptable. (Incidentally, we aren't voting on Arceus, but a clear majority was opposed to Obi when it was discussed on the forums here, so it's good thing or we'd have been left with an unsound position on that as well.)

 

[moi]

I am for restricted legendary IVs. This simply just simulates what is possible in the game itself.

I am for unbanning Events move with known Nature and IV limitations. If we are to simulate a possible outcome that is to occur in a game, then I think this would be the best way to do so. If we actually know the Nature (if any) or IV (if any) restrictions of an Event Move, that I think it really is only fair to allow. However, if this is unknown, we have no way to be certain that it is possible in the game, in which case it shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Efreet]

since many people (myself included) vote for event move with restriction i hope this will be taken into consideration for the final decision if we rack up a decent percentage of votes.