[W.I.P] Moltres



Pontiac.


[Pros]

<ul>
<li>Base 125 SpA is still beast</li>
<li>Fire/Flying STABs provide good offensive coverage</li>
<li>Typing also resists common priority like Bullet Punch and Mach Punch</li>
<li>Also resists Bug, Fairy, Grass and is immune to Ground fwiw</li>
<li>Has just enough in its stat distribution and movepool to separate itself from its competition</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>Faces new and tough competition for a team slot in Talonflame and Mega Charizard Y</li>
<li>Because of its competition, Moltres is shoehorned to very specific niches</li>
<li>Typing is also weak to other common attacking types in Water (Aqua Jet), Rock, and Electric</li>
<li>Loses 50% HP coming in if Stealth Rock is present. Rapid Spin/Defog support is required</li>
<li>Fast...but not fast enough</li>
</ul>

[Set Recommendations]


<p>name: Special Attacker<br />
move 1: Hurricane<br />
move 2: Fire Blast<br />
move 3: Hidden Power Grass<br />
move 4: U-turn/Roost<br />
ability: Pressure<br />
item: Choice Specs/Life Orb<br />
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe<br />
nature: Modest (+SpA, -Atk)</p>
  • Strongest Hurricane in pre-Pokebank OU
  • None of Moltres' counters can 100% safely switch in when running Choice Specs, especially in rain (e.g.: Rotom-W with no SpD investment is 2HKO'd by Hurricane)
  • Good offensive Rapid Spin users include Starmie, Mega Blastoise and Excadrill
  • Works well on VoltTurn teams. Magic Bounce users such as Mega Absol pair decently with this set in VoltTurn as well.
  • Choice Specs Hidden Power Grass 2HKOs all Rotom-W except Specially Defensive sets, 2HKOs ScarfTar after SR damage and OHKOs Barbaracle
  • Life Orb and Roost give it some form of longevity, especially if you can't get your spinner or Magic Bounce user in

<p>name: Agility<br />
move 1: Agility<br />
move 2: Hurricane<br />
move 3: Fire Blast<br />
move 4: Roost<br />
ability: Pressure<br />
item: Life Orb<br />
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe<br />
nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)</p>
  • Outspeeds the entire metagame after one Agility, including max speed Jolly Sand Rush Excadrill in sand
  • Agility differentiates Moltres from Talonflame (forced to buff its Attack stat) and Charizard
  • Good sweeper on more dedicated sun and rain teams if players still want to use them as a thing
  • Switches into Scizor all day (and kinda Breloom, but watch for Rock Tomb)
  • Roost keeps the sweep alive and mitigates Stealth Rock damage somewhat

<p>name: SubRoost<br />
move 1: Substitute<br />
move 2: Toxic<br />
move 3: Flamethrower<br />
move 4: Roost<br />
ability: Pressure<br />
item: Leftovers<br />
evs: 248 HP / 120 SpD / 140 Spe<br />
nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)</p>
  • Moltres has the best stat distribution and ability to run SubRoost over Talonflame and Charizard
  • 248 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD Calm can be used. With that spread, if you Roost, then 0 SpA Rotom-W has almost zero chance to break your Substitute with Volt Switch. Defensive Rotom-W is forced to burn Hydro Pump to Pressure. It's situational, however.
  • Will-o-Wisp catches unsuspecting Tyranitar, who WILL switch in on you. Also catches Azumarill :). May catch unsuspecting Barbaracle.
  • Switches into Scizor even better than Agility Moltres (again watch for Rock Tomb with Breloom)
  • Timid with 140 Speed EVs beats max Speed Adamant Mold Breaker Excadrill
  • Zapdos can run this set too...but Zapdos can't really beat Excadrill atm ;[

[Checks and Counters]

  • Tyranitar
  • Azumarill
  • Tyrantrum (sand)
  • Excadrill (kind of)
  • Starmie
  • Greninja
  • Rotom-W
  • Heliolisk
  • Jolteon
  • Barbaracle

Discussion Points

Should SubRoost be a thing? If so, what is the optimal EV spread?
Trapper set with Fire Spin and Sky Drop?
SunnyBeamer set? Rain Dance setter?
I'm sure I missed other checks and counters.
 
Last edited:

Alter

lab report ᐛ
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
(I'm not QC)

From the brief amount of time I used Moltres in BW2 OU, I found the Choice Specs set to be most effective. Given that Drizzle is now only 5-8 turns, the Agility set would also be less effective as it has less time to set up. I'm not certain how well the CS set would transition to XY but it'd be better than the defensive set, which looks really outclassed. For reference, it'd probably look something like this:

<p>Moltres @ Choice Specs<br />
Ability: Pressure<br />
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe<br />
Modest Nature (+SpAtk, -Atk)<br />
- Hurricane<br />
- Fire Blast<br />
- Hidden Power Fighting<br />
- U-turn</p>

While it has lost the extra turns of Drizzle, Defog being an option over Rapid Spin somewhat strengthens it. I put HP Fighting > HP Ground for now as the latter was only really relevant for dealing with Heatran, iirc.

edit: kinda fixed explanation at the start of the post. i was really tired when i wrote it.
 
Last edited:
Moltres @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Flame Charge / U Turn
- Hurricane/Air Slash
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam / HP Fighting

Huricane and Fire Blast are obviously attacks that should stay. Flame Charge seems like it's just a better choice than Agility, as you'll actually do damage in exchange for the Speed increase. U-Turn may end up being a better option, though, given that it's a "get out of here" option. Moltres cannot really find many opportunities to Roost, so I can't really recommend it(I'm even kind of iffy on Talonflame using it, but it at least has Bulk Up). You're going to really want to maximize your damage with Moltres, as its typing does not allow for much longevity.

You could theoretically run Weakness Policy on Moltres to achieve results, as well. Not sure how that would work out, though.
 

Zystral

めんどくさい、な~
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
(I'm not QC)

From the brief amount of time I used Moltres in BW2 OU, I found the Choice Specs set to be the most powerful. Given that Drizzle is only 5-8 turns this is probably a good option now as well as Moltres will have less time to set up an Agility. I'm not too certain how well it would transition to this gen outside of that, though. I'd argue it'd be more effective than the defensive set, though, as it seems really outclassed. For reference, it'd probably look something like this:

<p>Moltres @ Choice Specs<br />
Ability: Pressure<br />
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe<br />
Modest Nature (+SpAtk, -Atk)<br />
- Hurricane<br />
- Fire Blast<br />
- Hidden Power Fighting<br />
- U-turn</p>

While it has lost the extra turns of Drizzle, Defog being an option over Rapid Spin somewhat strengthens it. I put HP Fighting > HP Ground for now as the latter was only really relevant for dealing with Heatran, iirc.
I think by Drizzle you mean Drought. And the problem with Drought is that it makes Hurricane only 50% accurate, and Drizzle neuters your Fire Blast. As it currently is, Choice Specs probably can't get enough hits in before going down unless your team has Sticky Web support (which you then clear with your Defog).

Perhaps a Choice Scarf set would have more merit; Timid, Max Scarf puts you at 459, whereas base 125 SpA is more than enough for revenge killing. I'd say it would play very much like Chandelure, albeit less power.

Failing that a simple offensive set utilizing Life Orb, Roost, and 3 other attacking moves doesn't seem too bad as long as you can keep Stealth Rocks off the field. I also believe that here, Hidden Power Electric is your friend; Lanturn and Swampert are yet to be released, so using HP Electric covers your Water-type bases nicely enough.

I also see no reason why Air Slash maintains a slash (huehuehue) at all; Hurricane is still better, and given the nature of Moltres you likely aren't pairing it up in a Sun-based team anyway (unless you enjoy having two Flying/Fires and losing to Stealth Rock), so the accuracy drop doesn't factor that heavily.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Make a Choice Specs such as the one that Labyrinthine posted and put it first in order. Slash Life Orb after Choice Specs and Roost after U-turn.
 

ginganinja

It's all coming back to me now
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Agreed, sorta suprised Specs isn't listed, since it was the set that effectively got it an OU analysis last Gen.
 
Obligatory 48 hour bump.

Made most of the changes per what's been stated so far. I'm definitely convinced on Choice Specs, especially given Pokebank hasn't released yet (like...nothing switches in safely). I am not sold on Flame Charge since stuff like Scarf Rotom-W Heliolisk and Sand Rush Excadrill in the sand still outrun Moltres at +1, even with Moltres' serviceable Attack stat.

Speaking of Flame Charge vs. Agility, I still feel Agility merits its own set despite me slashing Life Orb and Roost on Choice Specs. Thoughts on this?

I wasn't sure if I should have posted the updates by bumping this thread or posting the reservation thread (I've seen it done both ways IIRC). If I was supposed to notify QC there instead of here though, I apologize.
 

ginganinja

It's all coming back to me now
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
You just need to post here, we see that it got bumped and check the thread out.

Anyway, fully agree with your points on Aegility, I guess its ok having a set. I don't like Flame Charge because, as you pointed out, moltres needs all the speed it can get.

Will get back to you on Sub Roost, I guess its "ok" with Defog users, but im a little concerned with such a slow EV spread. Avoiding your subs being broken by Rotom-W is nice and all, but so is actually having speed. Will confer with QC on this.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Keep SubRoost and Agility sets and get rid of Flame Charge. When the QC team finds an optimal EV spread for SubRoost we will let you know.
 
just wondering since pokebank isnt out it isnt possible to get Hidden power fighting on moltres at all, on pokemon X/Y all legendarys have a mandatory 3 31ivs wich makes it impossible for moltres to have Hidden power fighting until pokebank comes out just saying.
 
just wondering since pokebank isnt out it isnt possible to get Hidden power fighting on moltres at all, on pokemon X/Y all legendarys have a mandatory 3 31ivs wich makes it impossible for moltres to have Hidden power fighting until pokebank comes out just saying.
HP was changed this gen, as well as IV calcs for it(though I could be wrong).
 
Ah. Though it is weird that HP Fairy isn't a thing. They could have changed things, give that the damage is now set.
it didnt, the only change to hidden power is the BP other than that its the same and with 3 31s mandatory for legendarys, until pokebank comes out theres no HP fighting for moltres so you need something else there.
 
Yeah, Hidden Power Fighting is definitely impossible; you need at least 5 even IVs, and since legendaries are guaranteed at least 3 max IVs, which are odd...

BTW, what are the other incompatible types?
 
Alrighty, I updated the Special Attacker set to reflect Hidden Power Grass over Fighting, since HP Fighting isn't possible. I was able to get some testing done with the SubRoost set and 248 HP / 120 SpD / 140 Spe with a Timid nature has been the better spread. The speed just gives Moltres more opportunities to come in, threaten something and set up a Sub. Also, Flamethrower is kinda useless if you can't outrun Adamant Excadrill or Jolly Breloom ;[. Max SpD with Calm only barely lets Moltres escape 2HKOs against more powerful special attackers (Alakazam) and that's assuming you got rid of SR prior. I am thinking I might as well creep to 280 Speed to catch Adamant Lucario, but then again most Lucario this gen are Jolly so Mega forme can outrun Gengar. Thoughts on that are appreciated. I got with QC not too long ago and, either way, this should be moving along at some point this week.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
It's better to just hold on a few weeks until PokeBank is released, as Hidden Power Fighting is very important on Moltres and we can't upload previews atm anyway.

In the meantime, JackieChun test a SpD set with Roar / Toxic / Flamethrower / Roost, or even a max HP / max SpD spread for the SubRoost set. I know that the extra Speed is nice, but so is being able to avoid the 2HKO from attacks such as Modest Landorus's LO Sheer Force Sludge Wave and several other strong attacks. Talking about PokeBank of course.
 
Last edited:
Alrighty, I updated the Special Attacker set to reflect Hidden Power Grass over Fighting, since HP Fighting isn't possible. I was able to get some testing done with the SubRoost set and 248 HP / 120 SpD / 140 Spe with a Timid nature has been the better spread. The speed just gives Moltres more opportunities to come in, threaten something and set up a Sub. Also, Flamethrower is kinda useless if you can't outrun Adamant Excadrill or Jolly Breloom ;[. Max SpD with Calm only barely lets Moltres escape 2HKOs against more powerful special attackers (Alakazam) and that's assuming you got rid of SR prior. I am thinking I might as well creep to 280 Speed to catch Adamant Lucario, but then again most Lucario this gen are Jolly so Mega forme can outrun Gengar. Thoughts on that are appreciated. I got with QC not too long ago and, either way, this should be moving along at some point this week.
What do you mean? It's a reliable STAB move. Plus there are other targets too like Scizor & Ferrothorn.
 
What do you mean? It's a reliable STAB move. Plus there are other targets too like Scizor & Ferrothorn.
It has nothing to do with Flamethrower itself. It had everything to do with Moltres' low speed when uninvested and running Calm nature. Adamant Excadrill OHKOs you with Rock Slide and Jolly Breloom nails you with the buffed Technician Rock Tomb before you get to hit either of them with Flamethrower.

That set looks pretty interesting, alexwolf . I'll test it out as soon as I can.
 
just wondering since pokebank isnt out it isnt possible to get Hidden power fighting on moltres at all, on pokemon X/Y all legendarys have a mandatory 3 31ivs wich makes it impossible for moltres to have Hidden power fighting until pokebank comes out just saying.
The three lowest stats towards hidden power's calculation are HP, Attack, and Defense. Getting Odd EVs in those and only those stats allows you to obtain Hidden Power Flying. Hidden Power Flying is right about Hidden Power Fighting, so you should be able to get any Hidden Power other than Fighting. Bummer for the bird, that is the ONLY unobtainable HP.

Edit: I meant to quote Unowninator in order to answer his question. Sorry for the mistake.
 
The three lowest stats towards hidden power's calculation are HP, Attack, and Defense. Getting Odd EVs in those and only those stats allows you to obtain Hidden Power Flying. Hidden Power Flying is right about Hidden Power Fighting, so you should be able to get any Hidden Power other than Fighting. Bummer for the bird, that is the ONLY unobtainable HP.

Edit: I meant to quote Unowninator in order to answer his question. Sorry for the mistake.
I thought for sure there would be more unobtainable ones. Okay, thanks.
 
Is Sunny Day such a horrible slot? Because it acts as a offensive and defensive measure in one. Rotom-W's that switch in have a neutered STAB and you can immediately hurt really bad with Solarbeam if not outright kill. Same with Tyranitar who if they try to switch in immediately Sunny Day will activate after their sand and they no longer have their SpD boost. This can be used with Roost if you wish, or HP Ground for Heatran, who can't really do anything to you outside Toxic or Dragon Pulse. HP Ice for the Dragons of course.

Sub Roost is probably it's most niche set and if it gets in safely it has pretty good defensive typing. I think WoW is better than Toxic with the SpD build for overall longevity, and most mon are going to be switching around like crazy once their physical attackers get burned meaning you're not likely to see the long term damage benefit of Toxic. However...

Toxic(WoW)/Fire Spin/Substitute/Roost Once you're safely behind a Sub you can status and trap with Fire Spin to get the most out of your stalling moves.
 
I seriously think Modest merits a slash on the Agily set, even if Excadrill outspeeds Moltres at +2. (Plus Sand Rush isn't as good as it was in 5G, so some Exca wont rush it.)

Also maybe slashing Flamethrower next to Fire Blast (Still talking about the Agility Set.), Fire Blast + Hurricane looks like Shaky-Accuracy-Land to me, it's always good to have a reliable move when you need accuracy rather than power.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top