• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

Wait... Garchomp's uncounterable?

While this will turn out just like the other Garchomp counter thread, I'd like to post what I've said before. While you make some comparisons in your opening arguement, there is at least one key factor that you haven't mentioned. Garchomp's speed.

Now as we know, Garchomp maxes out at 333 speed (base 102). In your first paragraph, you mention Porygon-Z, who tops out 306 speed (base 90). If I counted correctly, there are only 37 pokemon who outspeed Garchomp. This means that Garchomp outspeeds 92.5% of all pokemon. On the other hand, Porygon-Z only out speeds 83.4% of all pokemon. Quite a large difference there.

Another fact that is very considerable, Garchomp has it's own speed tier. This means Garchomp will only ever risk a tie against other Garchomp, other then that it will either outspeed or be outsped. On the other hand, Porygon-Z ties with 17 other pokemon, meaning that 50% of the time, it will lose as well. This is not the case with Garchomp. Not risking a speed tie except against other Garchomp is a very powerful ability on its own.

Another problem with Garchomp is the defenses that it carrys. Anyone who has used a Bulky Garchomp knows exactly what I'm talking about here. Other pokemon that are often used in the "no counters" arguement: Gengar, Lucario, Porygon-Z. Compared to Garchomp, who boasts formidable 108/95/85 defenses, Porygon-Z has 85/70/75, Lucario's 70/70/70 and finally, Gengar's pitiful 60/60/75. If Dragontamer would like to post defense tier rankings for each of these, that would be great, considering I'm looking through them still.

So looking beyond the fantastic attack and STAB attacks of Garchomp, you must also figure in the speed and bulkiness that Garchomp possess. Garchomp is a "bulky sweeper" in the fullest sense of the term.

I'd also like to point out that your 80 / 252 / 176 Bold Cresselia is 2HKO'd 98.62% of the time by CB Outrage if Stealth Rock is up. You also only OHKO 46.15% of the time with Ice Beam, and that's including Stealth Rock as well. Without Stealth Rock or any prior damage, you only have a 7.67% of OHKOing Garchomp. Your Hariyama has no chance of OHKOing Garchomp with Ice Punch, even with Stealth Rock up. If you run a +attack nature to change this, you can no longer survive a SD Outrage like you say you can now.

EDIT - Aldaron posted a lot of this as I was typing it up. Like many have said, the way to beat Garchomp is to play offensivly. Don't counter it, play around it.
 
chewy said:
The only problem with saying that Garchomp has a counter is that most skilled players keep their Garchomp in the shadows until they are sure that the counters are out of the way or weakened before striking. Even then Yache berry screws over many would be counters, such as Hippowdon.

It can really only be revenge killed and even then a solid team behind it can easily ruin that.
Click to expand...

This is done by every skilled player on any team with any sweeper. Sweepers aren't uncounterable just because they're usually saved for the late game.

Uh, Choice Band Outrage does like 53% to that Cresselia. I haven't ran the calc, but I played a guy with a Jolly CB Garchomp (opp told me it was CB) and my Cress with that spread. Not to mention unlike other scary shit like CB Hera, Garchomp is forced to stay in. The Modest spread does not do well at all to CB Outrage, yeah, but my spread does.

The arcane definition of counter is used for a reason. If you don't use it, you can't reliably stop it.


Iggy, I said 1 Spikes layer was needed as well as no residual damage on Cress's part. CB Outrage is an absolute worst case scenario anyway.

The fact that PorygonZ and Garchomp are not the same Pokémon is entirely missing my point. My point was that other almost-uncounterable Pokémon exist, not that PorygonZ and Garchomp are identical!
 
I personally use Jumpluff as my "counter" for Garchomp. It's worked every time for me so far, but it does require a great deal of prediction, but that's my game.

The 110 base Speed allows for a really quick Encore. Since most Garchomp are Swords Dance variations, they're pretty easy to predict. I predict either a Swords Dance or Earthquake, Encore that move when I switch Jumpluff into it since I'm faster, and now Garchomp is forced to switch out.

If I'm in a lot of trouble, I'll use Sleep Powder on Garchomp, since even with Sand Veil up, it at least has 60% accuracy which is Hypnosis's old accuracy. Jumpluff can also Paralyze Garchomp if he really wants to with Stun Spore since Garchomp isn't immune to that unlike with Thunder Wave.

Since Jumpluff has shit offenses, I maxed speed but made him as bulky as I could on the physically defensive side.

He has problems with Stone Edge and Fire Blast, but other than that, he does a pretty good job of stopping Garchomp for me in my experience because of the super-fast Encore.

Cloyster seems to be the most reliable thing I've seen in this thread so far though. I agree with Aldy though that in order to beat Garchomp, you've just got to repeatedly attack it, especially since it rarely has defensive EVs, so STAB attacks can still do quite a bit of damage even if they're neutral.
 
Chris is me said:
The arcane definition of counter is used for a reason. If you don't use it, you can't reliably stop it.
Click to expand...

I disagree with this, and I think most people will as well. There are definitly ways to handle threats without packing a true "counter" to them. Like I edited into my post above, good players will play around threats they can't counter. It's all about knowing how to play. Like Bologo said, he uses Jumpluff to stop Garchomp much of the time, since it can come in on both Swords Dance and Earthquake, and easily Encore whatever attack Garchomp used last. Not to mention Sleep Powder and Stun Spore effectivly stop Garchomp, but are much riskier. If Garchomp uses a different attack, I'm sure Bologo also has pokemon to switch to to absorb that and send Garchomp packing again, or can use the next opportunity to get Jumpluff in.
 
garchomp should run a fire move though, from experiance running a fire move is key to its survival and in the current environment, where people are using bronzong, lucario celebi in their masses its crucial, in which case jumpluff is screwed, and a yache chomp can use swords dance even if it predicts HP ice, ice punch etc,
i run yache chomp along with a ninjask BP speed (also works as a semi-scouting mission as i can bring it on electric users and passing the speed and swords dancing on a switch and also have the allowance of HP ice to SD and not be outsped.)
 
phalanx said:
garchomp should run a fire move though, from experiance running a fire move is key to its survival and in the current environment, where people are using bronzong, lucario celebi in their masses its crucial, in which case jumpluff is screwed, and a yache chomp can use swords dance even if it predicts HP ice, ice punch etc
Click to expand...

Why would anyone bring Jumpluff in when they predict a Fire move anyway? I carry a Heatran to take those inevitable Fire attacks, and that lures an Earthquake on Heatran's 4x weakness which is Jumpluff's queue to come in.

You can never just depend on one pokemon to counter an entire threat to your team. The reason being that if that counter is gone, your team's dead. You can't allow that to happen, there needs to be a sort of balance in the team, and it should be able to operate if one of the members is gone.

Eg. Some people just throw in Blissey to take any special attack imaginable, even though the rest of their team is very low on resistances and such. This is a terrible idea IMO, because if Blissey is gone, the team is fatally crippled.
 
Chris is me said:
Iggy, I said 1 Spikes layer was needed as well as no residual damage on Cress's part. CB Outrage is an absolute worst case scenario anyway
Click to expand...

Considering you said Cresselia is a counter to CB Garchomp, I proved you wrong. With just Stealth Rock up, Garchomp 2HKO's 100% of the time with Outrage. Even with Spikes, you won't always OHKO Garchomp since Ice Beam does 86% minimum.

If you're going to list Cresselia as a "counter" you have to be prepared for the worst case scenerio. And I don't see why anyone wouldn't Outrage if they know Cresselia is coming...
 
I wish I could find the other Garchomp argument so I could copy some counters, but can't find it. Anyways...

Mamoswine, yes the thing that says "CBMamo" weak can survive a CB Outrage (Jolly I think...) from Garchomp. Of course this is screwed by SR, but if you invest HP and Def EV's its possible to switch into SR and still take the outrage.

Dusknor, the ghost that can screw quite a few pokemon over, including Garchomp. It could run a 252/252 Spread, it could run a 252/180/78 (something like that), either way, it can take a hit CB,SD,Scarf,Chain and play around with or straight out kill Garchomp.

Of course I'm not the best at creating efficient spreads and what not, but you get my point.
 
IggyBot said:
Another problem with Garchomp is the defenses that it carrys. Anyone who has used a Bulky Garchomp knows exactly what I'm talking about here. Other pokemon that are often used in the "no counters" arguement: Gengar, Lucario, Porygon-Z. Compared to Garchomp, who boasts formidable 108/95/85 defenses, Porygon-Z has 85/70/75, Lucario's 70/70/70 and finally, Gengar's pitiful 60/60/75. If Dragontamer would like to post defense tier rankings for each of these, that would be great, considering I'm looking through them still.
Click to expand...

Sure, but some find BlissCents / SkarmCents more meaningful on the first try, so here is everyone's defense rating in SkarmCents first (aka: comparing everyone on physical defense only). I'll do the defense tier thing later in this post.

Cresselia: 76--119
Deoxys Defense: 62--101
Skarmory: 62--100
Garchomp: 58--96
PorygonZ: 39--71
Lucario: 36--65
Gengar: 29--56

A "SkarmCent" means the ability to take a physical hit like a Impish Max/Max Skarmory. Max Skarmory recieves 100 points because Max Skarmory takes a physical hit ... erm... exactly like a Max Skarmory. >_> Garchomp at full EVs is like a Skarmory at 96% health, PorygonZ is like Skarm at 71%, etc. etc. Deoxys-D is slightly stronger than Skarmory, and Cresselia's max defense is 19 SkarmCents higher than a Skarmory (which translates into 19% more defense than a Skarmory)

Both SkarmCents and Defense Tiers combine HP and Defense into a single score, so don't worry about HP or Defense, just look at the number. Its as if everyone has the health bar of Skarmory... just Garchomp's is 4 SkarmCents smaller, and Cresselia's is 19 SkarmCents larger.

That said... here are the Defense tiers for 0/0 hp/defense for those pokemon. (Standard notation: Physical defenses first, Special Defenses second)

Cresselia 121.32 122.06
Deoxys Defense 119.19 119.19
Skarmory 119.17 113.03
Garchomp 118.54 117.57
Porygon-Z 114.47 115.05
Lucario 113.41 113.41
Gengar 111.37 113.21

Those unfamiliar to these... 1 "point" is assigned to a +Nature. So Garchomp is .6 points away from Skarmory, or a little less than 1 "nature" away. If Garchomp was Impish and Skarmory Adamant, then Garchomp would have slightly more defenses than Skarmory.

Here, you can see that comparing Gengar to Garchomp is like comparing Lucario to a Cresselia. Both have an 7 Tier gap. (The advantage of Defense Tiers is that you can compare Pokemon to each other as opposed to only against Skarmory).

Yes, Garchomp has some monstrous defenses. I run a Garchomp Wall myself (with Stealth Rocks >_<)... Hippowdon doesn't work so well in a hail team, and Garchomp has more resists that I like in comparison to Swampert. Not to mention, everyone switching out while I play Stealth Rocks is awesome :-)
 
knock off gliscor. knock off the yache, and ice fang. you also have the same ability as the chomp, + Eq immunity which is the most common attack I run into on any chomp.

of course this isnt full proof, but what is?
 
If we're talking about Cresselia, I'd simply never run anything more than maybe 16 SpAtk EVs just because I like even numbers. Playing those pin-point numbers is pretty faulty IMO cause if the user doesn't go with the norm, your SpAtk was stupid to begin with, so why not just always 2HKO regardless, but now you keep your defense. So now, after you survive the second one, you use...Rest. And you're good to go with stalling it. Plus, what kind of dumbass switches into an Outrage and then -not- switch into a steel type immediately. And if said Outrage kills something, bring in your own damn Garchomp because you know you have one, and fucking revenge kill the motherfucker. Seriously, paper battling is stupid.
 
ever passed a sub to a cb chomp? ouch. one miss predict and you lose a poke maybe even your chomp counter. I am aware this applies to all strong choice pokes but its just another trick in chomps plethora of sets that can destroy any team at short notice.
 
Hello,

I'll try to come back and edit in with Calculations later. However, IIRC Bulkydos from the StrategyDex does a pretty solid job as a counter to all Garchomps but ChainChomp, as long as Stealth Rocks aren't down.

I don't worry that much about ScarfChomp on my teams, as I tend to not have problems revenge killing/countering him. A Physical wall with a sufficiently solid Ice attack will usually do the trick.

What I'm starting to sweat is the SD/LO Garchomp variants. I don't have a good answer to that as teams with it usually lay down rocks, eliminating BulkyDos as a counter :(
 
Bulkydos is nearly 2HKOed by Scarf Outrage, and can't OHKO back without a DD (even if it uses DD, it's still slower).
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
If we're talking about Cresselia, I'd simply never run anything more than maybe 16 SpAtk EVs just because I like even numbers. Playing those pin-point numbers is pretty faulty IMO cause if the user doesn't go with the norm, your SpAtk was stupid to begin with, so why not just always 2HKO regardless, but now you keep your defense. So now, after you survive the second one, you use...Rest. And you're good to go with stalling it. Plus, what kind of dumbass switches into an Outrage and then -not- switch into a steel type immediately. And if said Outrage kills something, bring in your own damn Garchomp because you know you have one, and fucking revenge kill the motherfucker. Seriously, paper battling is stupid.
Click to expand...

Thanks for mentioning that whole "what kind of dumbass switches into Outrage and then doesn't switch to a Steel" bit, I was kinda afraid to say that.

Hey IggyBot, does the definition of a counter mention anything about Stealth Rock? Not really. That's me being anal, so here's my real point.

CBChomp isn't 100% handled by Cress, it's 90% handled by Cress and 10% handled by a bulky Steel type if for some reason Stealth Rock hasn't been cleared by my Spinner and someone actually is stupid enough to run CB Outrage when i can just switch in a Steel type and KO with something like Choice Band Steelix Ice Fang, etc.

If that's not pretty damn close to a 100% counter, I really don't know what is. Hell, Gliscor gets boned by Facade on CB Heracross if it gets a Guts boost, does that mean Gliscor isn't a counter? (Yes, a Guts boost and Stealth Rock making it past a Spinner are about as frequent...)
 
I've always found my friendly Forretress to be an effective counter, Outrage and EQ will only dent him so much (if they're scarfed), though SD versions with Fire Fang or Fire Blast will obviously hamper him.
 
Shinryu said:
I've always found my friendly Forretress to be an effective counter, Outrage and EQ will only dent him so much (if they're scarfed), though SD versions with Fire Fang or Fire Blast will obviously hamper him.
Click to expand...
I suppose the obvious response to that is, what exactly is forre going to be doing back to garchomp, except maybe exploding in his face.
 
Syberia said:
Bulkydos is nearly 2HKOed by Scarf Outrage, and can't OHKO back without a DD (even if it uses DD, it's still slower).
Click to expand...

Not really. Using MetalKid's D/P Damage Calc:

Garchomp/ChoiceScarf/252 ATK EV/Positive Nature and Outrage vs. Bulkydos=28.31% - 33.25%

With leftovers recovery, that isn't even a 3HKO. More than enough time to kill the Garchomp. Ice Fang without a DD in return does 75.14% - 88.27%

And it isn't just BulkyDos. There's quite a few Physical Walls that can come in on Outrage from ScarfChomp with 252 Atk Ev/Positive Nature and 2HKO back.
 
Intimidate saves the day again, I see. Any other Intimidators that can take Garchomp, by the way? Mawille for the lulz?

Again, Outrage switch in = Steel type. I wonder how something as massive as Steelix does against a mispredicted EQ? I bet it 2HKO's, but i'm too lazy to do calcs.
 
Chris is me said:
Intimidate saves the day again, I see. Any other Intimidators that can take Garchomp, by the way? Mawille for the lulz?

Again, Outrage switch in = Steel type. I wonder how something as massive as Steelix does against a mispredicted EQ? I bet it 2HKO's, but i'm too lazy to do calcs.
Click to expand...

He'd probably do ok. ScarfChomp/Outrage/252AtkEV/Pos.Nature only only 3HKO's Mixpert with Leftovers recovery, no Sandstorm to check it (43.14% - 50.87%).

If the previous pokemon put any damage on Garchomp he can take him down with Ice Beam (82.40% - 96.93%).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top